Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #538 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 538 Monday, 7 September 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Post from Fripp NEWS: P4 in Colorado NEWS: Fripp At World Financial Center, New York NEWS: John Wetton in Helsinki NEWS: Bill Bruford plays in Suffolk jazz venue NEWS: rocky mountain (usa) concert alert The Duversity "The Definitive King Crimson" has moved An Index of Metals: A Shorter Version Absent Lovers Review, 9/11/98 K.Crimson T-shirts? re: ProjeKcts and Crimson DGM receipt The ProjeKcts = King Crimson, sort of... Oh No! it's another DGM CC followup... Thoughts about Projekcts and Crimson and another irrelevant question KC playing schizoid man...Elp Playing Schizoid man...this is driving me craz "The Definitive King Crimson" Do it DGM CC in Stores DGM Club and others Michael Giles Easy Money collector's club Signatures, ice cream, figurines... King Crimson related unnecessary information David Torn; KCBQ?; good times; Fred; SAOTW Simple Equation What ET means for me... P4 in S.F. Glad to Have ET ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:33:49 -0400 From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com> Subject: NEWS: Post from Fripp DGM World Central PO Box 1533, SALISBURY, Wiltshire, SP5 5ER. (44) 1722 781042: fax. Sunday 6th. September, 1998. Dear Team, Firstly, many thanks to Dan K. and the many posters who have contributed suggestions and expressed interest regarding the DGM Collectors' Club. Secondly, I quote from DGM postings: "One important point to prospective Club members: if you have any reservations about joining, I recommend that you do not. I assume goodwill, and a measure of enthusiasm. There is no compulsion on any member to take any release, whether a Club Selection or not. Selections will be made on the likelihood that most of the membership will want them, guided by the large amount of feedback we have received and are receiving. Club releases, both historical and contemporary, assume the willing engagement of the audience: the audient extends themself to connect with the music. With open releases, we cannot make that assumption. So, we present the music in such a way that it reaches out to welcome in its listening public: sonically, musically, and in presentation. Small unit runs are relatively expensive (copying, editing, mastering, pressing) and operating the Club is also (relatively) expensive. We shall keep down the costs to members of double / multiple CDs wherever possible. This is where Members assume a reciprocal goodwill from the company. Which they may. DGM as a trading company is very healthy. Roughly, our releases sell enough to maintain the company but haven't yet moved to the next plateau, which is a profit level. This would enable us to invest in choice technology and address our overdraft, so we don't have to bear hire and interest charges. But, in time and with a supportive audience." This past Friday 4th. September we turned down our first applicant to join the Club. A four page letter from the applicant included useful suggestions for future Club releases, and three pages of concerns and questions about joining the Club. If any potential Member of this (exclusive?) Club needs to write a three page letter expressing their worries in joining, better not to join. We sent their cheque back. (I guess that makes the Club VERY exclusive). Sample Q. & A. _____________ Q. Is the DGM CC democratic? A. Actually, no. It's a business. But it's the kind of business I'd like to do business with. Q. Is it right that Robert / DGM chooses the releases? A. Yes. Q. Why? A. Firstly, because we are the only person/s with the total overview of musical and business possibilities; including informed feedback and suggestions from correspondents, ET enthusiasts, and the DGM Web Guestbook. Secondly, because we take responsibility for our decisions, and pay the tab for taking them. Q. But that's not democratic! A. Right again. Q. Why are the Club releases at the high cost end of mainstream CD releases? A. They're not - they're at the low price end of bootleg releases. Q. Will the sound be good? A. Probably not: most of it will be terrible. And if its good, be happy. If it's bad, be happy anyway. Q. That's terrible! A. I thought we'd agreed on that. Q. Is the Club exclusive? A. Yes, but only if you don't join it. Q. What do I need to join? A. Sufficient sentient capacity to breathe in, and then out, through two nostrils simultaneously. And if you only have one, then we'll accept that as well. Q. I've never be so insulted in all my life! A. I don't believe you. But, perhaps you should go out in public more often? Q. I'm not giving you my business! A. Firstly, I support your decision. Secondly, business dealings between DGM and its customers assume goodwill and a (critical) engagement. And so, thirdly, I support your decision. Q. I'm not going to save up my hard-earned pay until I have enough to join, and then give it to a manipulative, greedy, mercenary, anal retentive who has no feelings for struggling musicians who send him unsolicited tapes, and doesn't allow himself to feel the pain of loss of not being able to assist those who come pounding at his door. A. I thought we'd agreed on that too. Q. You'd better maintain DGM as an open model for others who would endeavor to create a similar small label, or I'll write you arrogant, assumptive and insulting letters which tell you nothing about you but a lot about myself! A. So, you're sure you don't want a series of dodgy bootlegs? If we were to enter into a dialogue with one potential member who has major problems with whether they will be treated fairly by DGM; with the sonic quality of bootleg tapes; with whether their suggestions for titles are heeded; with whether we shall be consulting with them and replying to their letter which takes three pages to air these concerns; we wouldn't have time to prepare the releases. Perhaps the ET enthusiast reading this may, inwardly and quietly, say to themselves: "This is absurd! How could any one person expect and demand so much of DGM's time? Who is this?" I necessarily reply: a large proportion of those who write to us. "The Book of Wimborne" by David Popham was published by Barracuda Books in 1983 in a series which included The Books of Sherborne, Dorchester and Bridport. The financing for the Wimborne book was underwritten by a subscription list put in the window of a Wimborne bookshop. Local residents signed their name, guaranteeing sufficient sales to make the venture possible. Names of the first 350 subscribers are printed at the back: 326, 327 & 328 are Robert, Edith & Patricia Fripp. (I looked through the book with my Mother on her last visit to this house). Club Members are, in effect, the subscription list which underwrites Club releases. If the gentle reader has an interest in joining the Club, and finds a regular breathing pattern not unduly onerous and / or challenging to either their sentience or customer rights, the telephone order lines for DGM CC (and regular mail order) operation in the US are: 1 (323) 937 3194 1 (213) 386 2522 The fax order line is: 1 (323) 937 9102 If anyone applying to join the Club has not yet had a reply: worry not! The repercussions of moving our (analogue) office are continuing to settle. Once again, if anyone has any doubts about joining the Club: please don't. Have an easier life, and allow us the same. Thirdly, each e-mail / letter bearing my name and sent directly to RF at DGM is presented to me. I undertake to read all direct correspondence. A lot of letters do not need formal response or acknowledgement (which is almost impossible). But, if you write to me, I will read your letter. (The exception to this are three individuals who suffer mental health challenges and have acted aggressively towards me over a period of years. Their letters are not shown to me). In addition, I read our Website mail as well as a large amount of regular DGM letters. If you write to me, e-mail or otherwise, please give your fax number and postal address. When I am able to respond, this makes a reply much easier for me (I use analogue and digital formats!). If you don't receive a personal answer, please don't be offended or disappointed: if we / I entered into personal correspondence the business would fold and I would never be able to play a note again (or eat cake, or brew Monster Cappucini). But I do read all the comments. Fourthly, for those enthusiasts who have an interest in the financial aspeKcts of touring ensembles, the three members of ProjeKct Two have just received the final statements for their most recent leg of touring (June 28 - July 8). The income for six performances totalled $33,678.53, plus merchandising profit of $907.15. This gave a total income of $34,891.80. To quote Richard Chadwick: "As there was a deficit on the touring side, the merchandising profit has been included in the tour income to help offset the loss. After allowing a retention of $507.53 for accountancy fees, the overall profit was zero. Unfortunately, there will be no fees due to anyone in respect of this leg of the tour". Each player received per diems @ $40, which gave them a weekly income of $280. Sample Q. & A. ______________ Q. Fripp! You venal, hypocritical toad! You're trying to cull sympathy by playing music for nothing! A. True, to the degree that $280 per week counts as nothing. Q. You're a useless businessman! Anyone else in your position would have made a fortune! A. True, to the degree that I don't look on playing music as a business. Q. You're a failure! If you played decent tunes with singing, preferably songs which were hated by the majority of rock audiences 25 years ago but have gained a small and devoted male following since, you'd make a lot of money! A. True, to the degree that I'm a venal toad. Fifthly, Guitar Craft enquiries for Europe may be addressed to Hernan Nunez, the GC Registrar for Europe, at (tel / fax) (49) 431 52 8612. If you have any doubts about attending a course, better not. Sixthly, good wishes to ET, its readers and contributors, in their finding of the purposes and value, to them, of their Newsletter. Robert Fripp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:13:25 -0600 From: Eric Preston Subject: NEWS: P4 in Colorado Tickets for the Fox shows now on sale! The Fox is a great small (non-smoking!) venue, one of my absolute favorites. Anyone not receiving email from the Colorado ET 'local chapter' that wants to have a few pints before the show, or is just looking for local info contact me at: prestone at cires dot colorado dot edu. The Colorado ET info listed is a little out of date, but i mailed Dan to change that. See you there, -efp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Sep 98 14:01:02 EST From: Robert Gottesman Subject: NEWS: Fripp At World Financial Center, New York In the schedule for the World Financial Center Arts & Events, Fripp will be there on Nov. 17 & 18 at 12:15 PM and 7:00PM doing Solo Soundscapes. Admission is Free. Thought you might like to know. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:58:24 +0300 From: "Jarmo Muukka" Subject: NEWS: John Wetton in Helsinki John Wetton Trio is playing in Helsinki at Stoa on 12th of September. This detail is from Helsingin Sanomat (2nd of September). It can be found from web too (http://www.clinet.fi/~jjazz/colossus/tapahtumat.html). JMu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 00:49:29 +0100 From: "Tim Regester" Subject: NEWS: Bill Bruford plays in Suffolk jazz venue Dear ET'ers I have just discovered that Our Bill is playing at the Fleece in Boxford, Suffolk UK on Friday September 11th see web site http://www.travis33.demon.co.uk/live.htm for more detail I have no idea what they will be playing but it cold be pure improvisation. If any ET'ers plan to go, let me know, since I will be there ( One less stop on the bus home on Friday night). Cant really believe my luck have fun ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:27:10 -0600 From: Steve Subject: NEWS: rocky mountain (usa) concert alert Hello et'ers: To those of you living in Colorado and the outlying areas, tickets for the ProjeKCt 4 concerts @ the Fox Theater went on sale yesterday (September 4). The TicketMaster agent informed me that I was buying the first ticket sold, according to her computer (too bad it's general admission....). The shows: October 23, 8:00 P.M October 24, 8:00 P.M. The Fox is at 1135 13th Street in Boulder. I have been told this is an excellent venue, with drinks served and table seating: great acoustics. Also, a concert is planned in Aspen, with exact locale to be determined. So you there! -Steven Sthole, owner of 'The Greatest Band in the Universe' website at: http://home.rmi.net/~sws/band.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:58:53 +0100 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: The Duversity I came across the DuVersity on a web search the other day, at http://www.duversity.org - this is an organization founded by Anthony Blake, who was on the staff at John Bennett's Sherbourne institute during the 1970s, and who helped manage the institute after Bennett's death in 1974. It may be of interest to ET because Blake's using Robert Fripp's name in advertising on the web site. On the other hand, if the Duversity is an ongoing and active concern, ET'ers interested in the path followed by Gurdjieff, Bennett, Blake and Fripp may wish to investigate further. (Personally, anything that invokes "holism" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but, hey, it's a big universe..!) Cheers, Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at ibm dot net "When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt." -- Robert T. Pirsig / Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:19:46 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: "The Definitive King Crimson" has moved "The Definitive King Crimson" has left Geocities for this address - http://devlin.webjump.com/kcrimson/kcrimson.html Update your bookmarks! Cameron Devlin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:27:35 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: An Index of Metals: A Shorter Version I recently sent this information to John Relph (Robert Fripp discography). I forward it FYI: I thought you might be interested to know that the original version of "An Index of Metals" is shorter, by approximately 4:14, than the current CD version (Fripp and Eno's "Evening Star"). There is no major new section in the piece: some sections are simply allowed to repeat a bit longer. I first suspected that this was the case when I noticed that the tape I made of the LP fit on one side of a 90 minute tape with room to spare, while the CD is over 48 minutes long. I played the tape and the CD at the same time, thereby confirming my suspisions that what was side one is exactly the same on both releases. Using the CD timer, I estimate that the original LP version is 24:22. A good amount of the extra length comes at the end, where the final drone is allowed to continue for a bit longer, but throughout the work there are small differences--the CD falls "behind" quite early. (This information pertains to the UK Polydor version from the 1970s.) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:20:40 -0500 From: Amy Weissenburger Subject: Absent Lovers Review, 9/11/98 >From Entertainment Weekly, 9/11/98 Music: P. 133 Reissues: King Crimson- Abesent Lovers This 1984 Montreal concert is rife with the sort of crafty guitar extrapolations and fusionm-damaged exhibitionism that led many to dismiss the group's efforts as highbrow head music. But even if your taste runs to less esoteric fare, there's no denying that the two-disc _Lovers_ is as weird and rarefied as larks' tongues in aspic. You just know some cutting-edge DJ will sample this stuff sooner or later. B- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:55:19 -0700 From: "Marc van der Pol" Subject: K.Crimson T-shirts? Hey, I was wondering where I could get ahold of a King Crimson T-shirt... I've searched various places on the web but can't seem to find any. Any help would be appreciated. E-mail before Sept 8: reply to this message (marcvdp at prodigy dot net) Sept. 8 and beyond: marcv at student dot umass dot edu... please dont e-mail the other address after the 8th, I wont be able to retreive it. Thanks, Marc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:22:49 -0400 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: re: ProjeKcts and Crimson Hi Crimpersons, Dan K asked in ET 537 about the development of Belew's ballads in the context of the current R&D. His questions spurred my thinking. Fripp has referred to King Crimson as a way of doing things, a way of making music. It seems to me that he hears "the King" (not Elvis!) at the point where the musicians connect. I interpret this to be the place where they begin to play as one unit - able to simultaneously play and react to each other's playing. I see this as being the zone where practice and sweat come together with an unknown force that causes the group to be greater than the sum of its members. In P2 I saw Belew as being an integral component of the unit and its cohesion. His Crimson lyrics and singing vary from serious and dark to wry and witty. He brought these elements to his drumming, which in fact added much to the two P2 shows that I saw. Similarly, though Belew writes independently of the group, the songs do evolve within the context of Crimson, and are part of a collaborative process. He brings his own element to the group where it becomes part of the whole. For these reasons I do not see Belew as being from a different school as Fripp & Gunn when it comes to Crimson. When he is with other Crims then the music develops from what each of them bring. Gunn's solo albums are influenced by Fripp, but I do not imagine Fripp writing "Indiera" any more than Belew's "Burned by the Fire We Make". Neither song is particularly Crimsonish to my ear, but listening to solo albums gives me clues to what each Crim gives to the group effort. In this way, whatever Belew brings to the Crimson will be a part of the group. Kathryn Ottersten "They come better looking, but they don't come mannered." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:33:56 PDT From: "Andy Dean" Subject: DGM receipt Scott Steele (ET #537), in reply to my announcement about receiving a receipt/confirmation from DGM, inquired as to where I live. Scott, I am from northeast Missouri, USA (where we're probably more likely to get a visit from Hurricane Bonnie than King Crimson). :) Has no one else received a similar letter from DGM? Surely I'm not the only one. --Andy Dean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 00:56:25 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: The ProjeKcts = King Crimson, sort of... Hi everyone: For those who read ET yet somehow aren't able to check out Fripp's almost daily postings to the DGM website, I'd like to share the most thrilling thing I've read as yet from that ongoing monologue, an item posted by Fripp back on August 25th yet uncommented upon by those of us on ET: < FRIPP > "When I returned from the P2 Mid-West tour, clasping my about-to-be-becoming archive DATs, I played the two nights in Chicago (at the Park West) and the show in Detroit. About 25 minutes into the second set at Detroit I realised that I was listening to King Crimson. I knew, and recognised, the person speaking to me. From this, it was a simple step for my thinking to move from "King Crimson - A Single Trio" to "King Crimson - Another Single Trio", to "KC - A Quartet", and so on. In other words, fractalising King Crimson works. It is a qualitatively different experience to know that a fractal contains, refects, expresses, embodies the whole: and then find yourself witnessing this happening. Surprise, discovery, embrace, joy, wonderment. But P2 is also P2; it's not always Crimson. Similarly, with the P1 we've been editing for "Live At The Jazz Cafe", I recognise the same spirit which informed and empowered several Crimson improvs from 1973-74. It's not simply that two of the players are the same: the identity behind the notes is also the same. This isn't rationalisation. When we close our eyes and a friend walks in the room, we recognise from sensing their presence that our Friend is present. Similarly with Crimson: when it's Crimson, it's recognisably Crimson. And, from time to time, the King has been flying by these projeKcts and waving, beckoning, to us." This makes me very happy to hear, as I felt "The King" more strongly at the Irving Plaza P2 show I heard this year than at most points in the three Greater Crim shows it has been my privilege to witness firsthand since 1981. My opinion is that P1, P2, P4 and whatever else comes along are all *part* of the "Greater Crim" in its ideal state. After all, when Bruford chose to (dis)play "admirable restraint" on the classic improv "Trio," was he any less a member of the band at that time? Obviously not... in fact, Fripp gave him a very real credit for what he contributed to that track. Likewise, does the current King Crimson lineup demand that all six players be playing at all times? I think not. If two or three or even five players were to lay out during any given segment of a King Crimson show while the remaining member(s) played, then the evening, if everyone (including the audients) played up to his or her potential, is an evening with King Crimson, no more, no less. (In theory, this also means that King Crimson may well reside in the highest moments of B.L.U.E. shows, but I digress...) I guess what I'm trying to say is that when the Double Trio next hits the stage in 1999, I for one will not be at all disappointed to see half the band disappear once in a while and Belew mount a funny-looking drumset during the course of the evening. Likewise, if Belew and Mastelotto were to disappear, I wouldn't panic, given the reports from the Jazz Cafe and Fripp's words above. And I'd prefer it to a six-piece "Frame by Frame," actually... Ideally anyone should be able to leave the stage, and the music made by the band in the absence of one or more musicians would still retain the quality that for almost 30 years Robert Fripp has labelled King Crimson. And the DGM Club... well... it's an exciting time to be here, isn't it? (My apologies to Trey, who's read nearly all of this before, some of it nearly verbatim...) Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:15:09 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Oh No! it's another DGM CC followup... In ET 537, Bill N. assumes: > I would bet most people that buy KC CDs have complete > collections, and strive to keep them up to date. Highly optimistic, I would say. I know quite a few folk with KC albums, but nobody with a complete collection, including me. Despite collecting music actively and avidly for years I don't have complete collections of any single band with a double-figure discography, and observe very few collections that do. Outside of a highly committed and very small core, you won't get many people buying everything. > 2-Frank Zappa has had piles and piles of live material on > the market for years ...including the mail-order only Shut Up 'n Play Your Guitar series. And Zappa is/was far better known, even in the UK, than Crimson, so consequently a bigger fan base to buy the material. They played Yellow Shark at the Proms last year! > 3-Lots of bands much smaller than Crimson on labals smaller > than DGM are able to distribute their music to the general > public, even if the CD's come in cardbord sleaves. But those CDs are the cream of their output, the very best they can do, representing current music people won't already have. They are not sonically poor versions of music we already own, so you're comparing Apples with Oranges. > 5-I think that most people buy records based on music, not > sound quality--therefore I think these albums WOULD in fact > sell on the market.If I were wrong, bootleggers would not > exsist. If some people pay $50 for a bootleg (of incomplete > and dubius quality), many more people will pay $15 to buy > the album on offical release. For many (most?) people, a certain standard of sound quality is a necessary precondition to enjoy music. There's a concert hall in Glasgow with the World's Most Boring Acoustic (TM), and my former flatmate refused to see the RSNO there ever again because the sound was so dead. This is a live, quality orchestra he likes a lot in a major concert hall, but the sound quality is too bad to enjoy the music, and you think hardly anyone will be put off by bootleg quality recording? I don't agree! I will not buy boots, not because I dislike the ethics (though that is the case), but because they generally sound so bad the music doesn't come through to me. Bootlegs operate in a very different market. Because people will pay $50 for a boot and because they cost very little to make and are shoestring operations with limited distribution they are inherently easier to do than a mass market, potentially high risk, professional production. "Many more people", yes, but is that still enough to pay for it? I don't know for sure, but "not necessarily" is, I think, a fairer answer than assuming "yes". > If it did, Eno, Sonic Youth, Fugazi and about > a million other bands on that level would have stopped using > distributors and record shops years ago. Again, you're comparing new recordings and archive material, and thus Apples and Oranges. I don't have any Sonic Youth at present, though I've borrowed some and liked it. I'll probably end up with a couple of their albums, and given a choice of an archive live recording that is admitted to be sonically below par by the label or studio albums, I'll buy studio albums. And back to point 1, I believe more people than you think will be approachinng KC in a similar way, so the studio albums continue respectable sales. If this were not the case, and most of the sales were "top ups" from a core as you suggest, *why* are copies of Beat still selling when "everybody" already has it? > I simply feel it is a lot of DGM to ask of Crimson fans Possibly, but at least they *are* asking, as opposed to *telling* them, "sorry, no", which appears to be the alternative. From what I gather DGM was in fairly serious trouble when their old US distribution deal collapsed: the label doesn't have bottomless pockets to bail it out of risky situations, so a prudent approach to getting material out is probably a Very Good Idea: if DGM lost lots of money on releases due to untrue assumptions, That Would Be That. Think of the CC method as financial risk management and it makes rather more sense, and at the end of the day you get CDs you want, just that you pay at a different time. No offense taken, btw. I just think personally that your assumptions are either wrong, or at least that they're a bit too woolly to bet large amounts of money on. Sad that it should come down to money, but DGM must ultimately pay it heed. Business history in all fields is littered with the corpses of idealistic companies who bet the farm on the general public deciding they should exist because they were nice guys. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:33:29 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: Thoughts about Projekcts and Crimson and another irrelevant question > As I write this I am listening to THRAK again for the first > time in a while. The thing about King Crimson is that it > has produced music that ranges from intense instrumentals to > beautiful ballads. [ snip interesting discourse .... ] > Much of Adrian's recent work has been instrumental > or compilations of past material. [ and again - sorry I find large quotes annoying... ] > they've produced an obvious "sound" that is the influence of > the Fripp/Gunn school of music making. But how is the Belew > school coming through? From these comments and also KC's own about how the last studio album was just more of the same it would seem that they are changing track. Also you point out that Adrian is not producing ballads right now anyway. I think [hope] they are pushing on to pastures new. For any musician the reason you work with other people (apart from the sheer joy of sharing music) is that they take you to places that you wouldn't necessarily go yourself. Fripp is obviously a driving force in the composition but the rest of the group is a flux of influence as the ProjecKts seemed designed to explore. I suspect one of the things KC are looking for is something that is MORE than the sum of its parts and given the immensity OF the sum of its parts that is a thing worth searching for indeed. One of the other posters commented on Fripps comments about this list... Indeed this list is about its members though maybe not AA more a kind of down the pub evening with a load of similar enthusiasts. Whatever - it is still a place where I can find useful information and renew my enthusiasm for excellent music... You should try the Tom Waits list if you want to see a lack of relevance but that is not the point. They are a interesting and stimulating bunch of people. My irrelevant question (sorry for this but I got such a helpful response to the last one...) is does anyone know where I can get hold of David Byrnes "Music for the Knee Plays" I heard a fragment of it on the radio the other day and remembered fondly that I once had a tape of it (now long lost). I don't think it was ever released on CD but I would still be interested in locating a copy. Private email obviously... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) From: noel swasta Subject: KC playing schizoid man...Elp Playing Schizoid man...this is driving me crazy Dear Eters and all of you KC FREAKS!!!, Hello all, i recently placed a post here at ET in reply to ELP doing a version of Schizoid man. I went on to say that KC no longer plays schizoid man. I was swamped with tons of mail saying that (at the 96 HORDE they did) (P2 played it) etc etc. Ok, I am now taking my last comment back and re-phrasing it. "Schizoid man is RARELY PLAYED by Crimson, so why shouldn't ELP play it." Thanks to all who mailed me with their comments, but crimson in the last decade hasn't played this song that often, and apologies to ET and Toby for taking up valuable space that could have been used for something more meaningful....LIKE THIS DAMN DGM CLUB!!!! OH MY!!! Noel Swasta Cloneme at rocketmail dot com CRIMSON FREAKS MAKE THE WORLD GO ROUND!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:40:40 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: "The Definitive King Crimson" Hey. Just a quick note to say that my page won't be updated until I can sort out my HTML editor, which is no longer working for some reason. I also cannot access the Web anymore. I think I'll have a word with AOL. Cameron Devlin Webmaster of The Definitive King Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:24:52 -0400 From: TJ Mathews Subject: Do it I'm crazed about the potential for P4. I'm wondering if they might rip up some instrumental versions of KC tracks. No singing. No lyrics. Fripp and Trey flooding the cosmic verandah. I would prefer that Robert take a break from listening to tape (this sounds like very hard work to me) and expand the tour possibilities of P4. Give me live over Club any day. From the Jefferson Airplane, "do it," and from Traffic, "no man is an island, ... he's a peninsula." >PS over here, in Wales, IT IS NICE TO MOAN, WE DO IT ALL THE >TIME, WE'RE GOOD AT IT! This is one of the funniest lines I've read in ET this year. ET is so serious. Anybody know a KC joke? tj dc - et http://www.tidalwave.net/~dumela/index~1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:24:57 -0400 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: DGM CC in Stores It was recently written....... < BQ > But for those of us on the outside, I'll bet if you really looked hard enough, you could find those DGM club releases in cd specialty stores(like the one I have in mind in Princeton, New Jersey). < EQ > Fripp has indicated on the DGM website that he does not currently have any intention to offer DGM club releases through stores. He has also mentioned that some small mom-and-pop type outifts have been asking him for the right to do this. I sincerely hope that he does allow some limited release via carefully selected stores. In particular, stores run by fans of KC and related music could personally provide the kind of "warnings" needed to differentiate these releases from the 'above-ground' ones. And frankly, most people shopping in those kinds of stores are not the ones being reached through Virgin/Atlantic Megastores. More importantly, it would foster the kinds of relationships that could be a good thing for companies like DGM, the kind of relationships largely wiped out by the megastores. So I sincerely hope that DGM will allow hand-picked stores to "join the club". -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:51:35 GMT From: aal at aws dot co dot uk Subject: DGM Club and others This is my first post so please be patient. 1} In ET536 Noel Swasta pointed out that "Crimson doesn't do Schizoid Man anymore". In the UK a tyre company (Pirelli, I think) started using Schizoid Man in their adverts, which has resurrected the song over here. Subsequent to the ad campaign DGM released a CD single with 5 versions of the song and when KC played at Shepherds Bush Empire in 1996 we were treated to a great version of 21CSM. So don't despair folks, it's still out there. 2} I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin. LZ released one live/soundtrack album "The Song Remains The Same" and have now released a double album of BBC Sessions. I'm a very big fan of Jethro Tull who have released "Bursting Out", "A Little Night Music" and a fair bit of live material in the anniversary box sets. This is a band that has been touring (with only slight gaps) since 1968. Rush have released a double live album after every four studio albums, another band that has been touring since 1973. King Crimson have existed 1969-1974, 1981-1984 and 1994-present (and the current line-up has hardly been constantly touring as KC). Yet we have: Earthbound USA Frame by Frame (one live CD) The Great Deceiver B'Boom Thrakattack The Night Watch Absent Lovers most of which are complete concerts. This is a prolific output for which we should be grateful. And yet people are posting to ET complaining about the Collectors' Club being exclusive and wanting to be able to go into the record stores and buy the records. I can't believe some of the things people are saying about freedom of choice. Without the Club these recordings would not become available except as bootlegs. DGM has already given the fans of KC greater freedom of choice than of any comparable band. Led Zeppelin fans would surely weep to read these complaints. Robert Fripp could already be criticised for gouging every penny/cent out of the fans and exploiting the market. If RF just happens to be reading - I'm here, exploit me. I could be particularly gouged if DGM happen to release the Royal Albert Hall concert cheaper than the Livroom boot which I couldn't afford last time I saw it. Please stop complaining about the Club. You have not been forced to part with the money for what will no doubt turn out mainly to duplicate what has already been released. Me, I'm trying to raise the dosh! THe chances are that certain other outlets will be able to get hold of the CDs anyway. 3} Fred Duerr, we need all the KC fans we can get, so get better you hear. 4} Obviously people who collect bootlegs are evil monsters that are killing music, but just in case there are any evil monsters in the London area who might be interested in trading tapes.... give me a post. 5} There is a fair bit of rubbish on ET. But perhaps you think what I've written above is rubbish. You have the choice to read it or not. Personally, I'd like to thank Toby for providing the service. Cheers, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:13:56 -0300 From: sergio at sucesu-rj dot com dot br (Sergio Pecanha) Subject: Michael Giles Hello, Someone else knows what drummer Michael Giles is doing now or recently??? Thanks, Sergio Pessanha - RJ- Brasil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:36:46 -0700 From: Nomad Stem Subject: Easy Money I've been reading about the apparent DGM distributor debacle in these austere pages, and I've been wondering if there was any way we could help DGM recoup some of the losses. Is there any way we can find out which distributor it was that went bankrupt? And then who that distributor supplied? And then what percentage of each purchase that went to the distributor, and what percentage of that went back to DGM (if I understand how the process works - correct me someone if I'm wrong)? If so I for one would be willing to add up the number of purchases that I made that were affected and multiply that by the money DGM lost out on on those purchases and then send DGM a check for that amount. If all ETers did so it would not only help DGM out, but it would be an unprecedented act of support from us, the buying public, toward the artists who lost out. I've got to believe Fripp and Co would be taken aback by the gesture. What do you think, am I crazy? Nomad -- Expect the unexpected -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:54:15 EDT From: CURUGROTH at aol dot com Subject: collector's club Dear ET, Re the current griping about a collector's club based on subscription: IMO, this is a reasonable and time honored practice for making music available to a select and selective audience. (Many works of Beethoven, Haydn, etc., for example, were sold by advance subscription.) I personally am not interested in paying $96 for more live KC recordings, but I'll tell you what I would be willing to pay in advance for: A studio recording for which maximal effort was invested in the process of composing, whatever that might mean for the current incarnation of the band. The way KC apparently did this in the 70s (from descriptions I have read by KC members) was to spend time improvising together and to then distill compositions from the improv by keeping what worked and discarding the dross. LTinA, for example, must have been composed in this fashion because for the tour following the release of this album they played Pt. 1 more or less note- for-note as on the recording (minus Muir, of course). Given the prohibitive costs of getting the larger 6 piece unit together for a month of this kind of preparation, perhaps they could use another approach: sitting down individually in quiet rooms to carefully plan mutliple tracks and large-scale structures in advance of those ever-so-expensive band meetings. Of course I am fully expecting to be flamed for these remarks. But the reason I make them is because I am convinced that this band is capable of producing music much better than anything they have recorded in the studio. (Standard rock-song formats and simple, nearly symmetrical structures like Vroom and Thrak, can get tiresome.) Oh yeah: I would double my subscription rate if they would pay someone to write first rate-lyrics or pay for rights to poems by, for example, Dylan Thomas. (Oh what I wouldn't give for a good KC setting of "The hand that signed the paper!"). So, anyone else interested in the possibility of funding some serious compositional effort on the part of KC, please respond via ET. (And hurry--I'm holding my breath.) Semi-seriously yours, Greg Karl curugroth at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 19:26:16 -0700 From: "J.E. Von Flutten-Byrd Beckmann" Subject: Signatures, ice cream, figurines... I found, and purchased, a used vinyl version of "Starless and Bible Black" (POLYDOR DELUXE 2302 065) yesterday which bears a signature on the reverse reading "R.W. Palmer-James", penned in blue ball-point. I, of course, question the authenticity of this signature and would ask anyone with any knowledge of such matters to assist in anyway possible. i.e., would Mr. Palmer-James refer to himself as "R.W." and is he known to sign lp jackets? What would really help, I'm sure, would be directions to an "on-line" example of an authentic Palmer-James signature or maybe a biblio-photo reference. Any and All Help Appreciated, JEB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:02:32 +0300 From: "Jarmo Muukka" Subject: King Crimson related unnecessary information This is for you who collects details related to King Crimson. There was a short King Crimson excerpt in TV-series called "Vuoroin vieraissa". This TV-series was first shown on winter/spring of 1997 and reply on this summer on Finnish TV channel TV 1. Excerpt was from album Starless and Bible Black and if I remember correctly it was from track Fracture. It was about 10 seconds and was similar to music played from about 6:44 to 6:57. I may remember wrong (I saw this about 18 months ago). It was used in a nightmare scene. Another thing from Finnish TV. Channel Nelonen had a TV-show called "VROOOM - ohjelma miehille" (in english it is VROOOM - a program for men). JMu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:03:18 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: David Torn; KCBQ?; good times; Fred; SAOTW >(music by David Torn and Michael Brook are two great examples) Mr. Torn's performances on Gongzilla "Thrive" have been getting my attention lately. Wah-hoo. >100 All-Time Eternal Guitar Solos: Robert questioned the lone inclusion of the studio "Schizoid Man" in a recent guitar magazine listing. My own choice would be his improvisations on "King Crimson Barbershop Quartet," playing which most every other guitarists are still trying to lay an ear on. Uhh, silence? >Things are looking up. We're about to embark on an era of unrivalled access to the Crimson Vaults. The current Double Trio is starting to gear up again after several fecund ProjeKCts. These are good times to be a Crimso fan. Right on Ted. >PS - Good wishes to Fred Duerr - come on Fred, you don't want to miss all that new KC stuff do you? A garland of martian fire flowers to Fred. >3. A live Sunday All Over The World album Blaine - all three of your recommendations would be welcome but this one would be particularly welcome. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:08:36 -0700 From: "Heilbronner, Mike (I)" Subject: Simple Equation Let see here . . . No Collector's Club = No live archive recordings for anyone (including "Bill N. newguy at CYBERNEX dot NET") Collector's Club = archive releases for everyone who can and wants to pay $96 (apparently not Bill N.) How does the existence of the Club put Bill N. in a worse position than he would be without the Club?? It does not. Bill N's actual problem is not the Club, it's that he doesn't have or want to spend $96. It is very unfortunate that we all don't have $96 to spend on such trivialities as archival Crimson recordings. I am extremely thankful that I do (although I work quite hard for my cd money) and do not take the privilege for granted. It is equally unfortunate that this material and much more cannot be released at a price point satisfactory to all. Apparently, Bill N. thinks DGM would release the archive material anyway. This, despite the fact that Fripp has already said DGM would not do so -- for a variety of reasons. Then, in ET 537, Bill N expounds on the hows and whys of releasing live, archival material -- citing Zappa/Rykodisc and small-scale, indie-label releases as representative examples of his point. Bill N's latest post is loaded with assumptions about the music business, DGM's financial and commercial capacity, and the buying habits of Crimson fans. The analogies to Zappa and small-scale indie releases are flawed on many levels. The Club is a revolutionary idea that's designed to meet the desires of consumers. MORE BUSINESSES SHOULD TREAT LOYAL CUSTOMERS WITH SUCH RESPONSIVENESS. We should encourage it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Basile Subject: What ET means for me... Hi, ho, When King Crimson reformed this last time I didn't know. The Christmas of 1992 I bought the rehearsal CD . My only disappointment was that they didn't have a major lable. That April I was at a book store looking for a guitar magazine, searching for anything on Fripp. I see he is on the cover. I read the CD was a rehearsal for a major lable CD. I read they are going to tour! I run and by THRAK. We true fans of ET remember how we had to inspect ,and search, for even hints of any Fripp/ Crimson info. I am Glad thoses days are over. A year or so later ETers' tell me to be early for the HORDE CONCERT. Many non- readers were disappointed, and I was disappointed for them. Then last year for The 3 G show they tell me to go early for the soundscapes. I did. Many didn't. They tell me to stay for the whole show. I did. I see several amazing musisians. I see a FRIPP Scorching solo. So Glad I stayed, while others left. This year some guy named Arnie, gets a bunch of us ETers together before P2. We meet at dinner. Made friends. Met some producer named Chris. Some Eter told me that I would here Crimson there. I did. Last Christmas this guy name Bill Forth emails me, so I give him ten seconds. Now this Chris character is trying to tell me he is very busy with Crimson archives, and some DAM Club, ya right. Yes, I have found out about other groups, and I really believe we would not of gotten half the releases from RF with out ET. The very best thing about ET, besides they don't correct my spelling and grammar, is the friends I've made! Very intelligent, kind caring people, that I will never forget. Cancel my subscription? No I would pay dearly for this. Bless all who work so hard on this, especially those behind the scene. Warmly, Basile BY THE THREE RIVERS GO STEELERS! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:08:48 -0700 From: "Elston" Subject: P4 in S.F. When is ProjecKt 4 going to perform in San Francisco during its upcoming tour? The dates (Oct. 31-Nov. 1) listed in ET are erroneous. I called the Great American Music Hall for tickets and was told the shows had been cancelled due to an unspecified conflict and that no new dates had been set. Does anyone know why the concerts were postponed? More importantly, when will P4 hit The City? Casey Elston ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:35:07 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Glad to Have ET Greetings, All the recent ET bashing and the taste of electronic verbal abuse that Toby gets has prompted me to write something I'd thought of before but decided against sending. Simply put I want to thank Toby and the others involved in running this site for providing us with it. I've been a KC fan since In The Court and for most of the near 30 years I've been into KC I've been in a near information vacuum. These guys are not regularly featured in the rock media. I discovered Poseidon and Lizard quite by accident in record racks. They could have been out for months for all I knew at the time. I used to pour through all the music mags at the rack looking for any Crimnews whatsoever (King Crimson guitarist Robert Fripp is rumored to be giving lessons to Robin Trower. or Robert Fripp once again has announced he has disbanded King Crimson.) It is really great to have a place to read the latest news and hear other fans, whoops, enthusiasts opinions and thoughts. I'm the biggest Crimphile I know in 3D and my knowledge of the band pales to what many of the ET correspondents are aware of. Some of the lamer stuff gets tiresome but you always know Eb will set them straight in the next issue. For every six degrees post there is a colorful report from Robert Cervero (sorry if that's misspelled). The DGM news section is where you can get the latest day to day report direct from Bouncin' Bobby, but ET is where you can react to the news. Anyway it's a great time to be a King Crimson fan and I feel a lot of the credit goes to this site. Thanks to everyone involved for a job well done. Brad Wilmot What does a prog musician say at his gig? Do you want fries with that? ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #538 ********************************