Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #417 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 417 Thursday, 11 September 1997 Today's Topics: News update Possible Productions Re: List spam Re: List spam / Artist Shop ET Moderation: need for and lack of Tingles review of new Gauchos album Tingles in the Dark _ The Dutch Effect semantics...or romantics? the progressive alternative Me vs. ET or I, sinner or Convicted & Burnt Fwd: KC Sightings (Elephant Talk) Frippertronics at Home -- Looping technology and Web Site Beatles & Tingles Lyrics Lake Encounter on 48th st. New DGM products gig type / thinking of thinking singable lyrics Another response to Dave D. (home Frippertonics) A prog radio show web site League of Gentlemen In the Wake of the Master (Crimson music on TV) My spaceship is here, but... i give up glutton for punishment Phase 1? Project 1? OOOPS and a blatant solicitation Dutch Paintings ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:56:56 -0400 From: Discipline Global Mobile Subject: News update September 10th. 1997. Dear Team, In response to recent postings: I News update: PROJEkCT ONE Bill Bruford Robert Fripp Trey Gunn Tony Levin The practical difficulties of King Crimson working together are immense: huge expense, expectation from audiences of King Crimson and its repertoire, and major logistical problems. An alternative approach is for smaller units within the Double Trio to work together, privately and publicly, rather than for all six of us to clatter and bang away simultaneously - which can be wonderful, for some of the time. And awful, for some of the time. And loud, for most of the time. Separating out the full group into smaller working ensembles increases the musicians' knowledge of what is possible for the full group; conjoining increases their understanding of what is possible for any Double Trio. Or any Triple Duo. Or Sextet. At least, that's the idea which I am currently presenting to the other members of King Crimson, to consider our next period and how best to embrace it. Trey is himself not aware of any plans for Crimson as a Triple Trio, although I found the idea sufficiently wacky to believe it possible, wonder who Trey had in mind and whether his thinking and mine coincided. Until I discovered Trey was not aware of a Triple Trio. And right now, Six is quite enough for me. PROJEkCT ONE, at the Jazz Cafe, London, Monday - Thursday 1-4th. December 1997, is the first King Crimson sub-group project of several planned. The music is improvised and there are no prior rehearsals. The aim of these smaller Crimson projeKcts is to function as Research & Development for the Greater Crim. These projeKcts may become as much and as little as they may. Trey, Pat and Robert have already agreed to undertake a Single Trio improv performance either in Seattle, Austin or Nashville, but have yet to agree practicalities. II On the afternoon of Saturday 6th. December (14.30 - 17.00) there is a Soundscapes performance in Newlyn Church, Cornwall, with artwork by John Miller and Peter Willis, to benefit a local special needs learning group which has had its funding cut. III In case the above should give the misleading impression to any unwitting ET reader that I am seeking to refashion my mercenary image to that of philanthropist, I make the following request: Think of me in the worst terms you may, knowing that the hardest judgement at which you might arrive falls far short of the actuality. This has the advantage to you that your expectations of me, as other than a wretch, may never be disappointed. This has the advantage to me that I do not have to feel the burden of your expectations. Then, you have the arising advantage that you might look to your own nature, conduct and aspirations rather than mine. In seeing your own nature, compassion for what I bear in seeing and knowing myself might arise within you. It is to our joint advantage that, in having a better sense of what is true, we might share a sounder base for our opinions and judgements in respect of each other. Even, to seeing that we are the same creature. Sincerely, Robert. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Possible Productions People, The Possible Productions web site is temporarily offline. ET Web is aware of that, and the link to their site has been disabled until it is back up. Meanwhile, for those of you wondering how to contact them, just send them email at PossProd at aol dot com and make an order in inquiry that way. As soon as the new Possible Productions site is ready, ET Web will re-establish the link. In addition many people have been asking about how to get hold of one release or another. PossProd is always a great place to check - ask them. In the past Mark Perry took many suggestions and found ways to stock a release. I don't see why that still isn't possible with Jeff and Amy running the show. Please don't send Toby or myself inquiries about Possible Productions. We don't have the answers to most of your questions - they do. Thanks! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:46:11 -0700 From: Jason Thornton Subject: Re: List spam >Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:11:20 -0800 >From: Eb >Subject: List spam > >Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending up to 5K now, I see.... > >Eb Whereas I'm a happy customer of the Artist Shop and *would* recommend its services to my fellow E-Talkers, I must agree with Eb (is that pronounced E Flat?) here. Elephant Talk has become incredibly spam-ridden as of late. From the very long Artist Shop announcements (which I enjoy reading, but now receive in numerous forums - personally, here, on the Sylvian list...), to musicians constantly announcing that their new personal soundscapes are available on-line, to inane new-age hippies promoting their personal brand of pseudo-philosophy and metaphysical fraud. Personally, I don't mind the **occasional** well-intentioned off-topic, even commercial post. But, when it becomes a regular weekly item, it gets to be quite annoying and cumbersome. Banning all commercial and off-topic seems somewhat extreme, and that is not what I am calling for - I've been led to some interesting companies, releases from non-Crimson artists, and other goodies, all thanks to tangential posting. I do wish, though, that people would learn some restraint, and all join in to help cut down the traffic on E-Talk. For the most part, we don't need to hear you babble about your personal life. Many of us aren't at all interested in your personal religious/mystical beliefs (and, in fact, find them both dangerous and simplistic), or how much you hate Ouija Boards, or how you worship bandwidths of light. We don't need a five paragraph explanation of every CD your CD store gets in stock. Everytime you add a soundfile of your music to your website, don't tell us about it. The occassional "BTW" remark is fine (a good example would be Misha's "shameless plug" in Digest #416)...Even, once in awhile, telling us all "what's up" is tolerable. But, honestly, almost no one is interested in your theories of Fripp the "LightWorker," or that you're selling Kajagoogoo's "White Feathers" for $1.00 off this week. If I were to put my vote in, I'd rather read more posts on the (at least) Crimson-related "banned" topics than most of the off-topic clutter I've had to wade through recently. Hopefully, there will be no need to further moderate this list - I'm hoping that everyone can practice some degree of personal discipline. Learn to lurk! (No hippies were harmed during the composition of this post - afterwards, I'm making no promises.) *-------------------------------------------------------------- Jason R. Thornton || Chapman Stick, Silver #2125 *-------------------------------------------------------------- "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson *-------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:36:21 -0500 (CDT) From: DAMON CAPEHART Subject: Re: List spam / Artist Shop On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:11:20, Eb wrote: > Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending up to 5K now, I see.... 1) Irrelevancy: About 75% of the Artist Shop's posts are directly Crim-related, and about 20 of the remaining 25% are more indirectly (ooh, Peter Hammill - he's never actually BEEN in KC, so it's obviously irrelevant to ET.) 2) self-service: We are all self-serving, whether we mean it or not. 'Nuff said. Damon P.S.: How about this tidbit from a friend of mine who reads ET over my shoulder: "Mostly irrelevant, self-serving Robert Fripp posts extending up to 12K now, I see..." ------------------------------ From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: ET Moderation: need for and lack of Hi everyone. I'd like to comment on the sentiments expressed above. As your Moderator/Facilitator/Amusement Engineer, I read every post that comes in to ET. Yes, every one. Some I reject, with a polite note to the originator; perhaps their post is offensive, libellous, or incites hate. Other posts I delete without further action because they are so offensive I don't wish to enter into correspondence with the poster. Other posts I edit -- unilaterally -- to remove things I think are irrelevant to ET: off-topic things, personal insults, that kind of thing. With ET #416, however, a batch of posts went out unedited, due to my mistake. I mention this because I'd intended to add a parenthetical comment after the post by "Eb". So here it is now. Eb> Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending Eb> up to 5K now, I see.... Artist Shop posts are sometimes irrelevant to ET (the latest one I have received, for example, is free of any KC-related content, so it won't be posted to ET) but they usually are relevant. So I include them in ET. While I find Eb's comment crass, I included it in the interests of free speech. Jason Thornton, above, complains about the quality of posts to ET. I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately people do send posts to ET that are uninteresting, poorly written, childish, embarrassing and sometimes just plain bollocks. You can see examples in this issue. Believe me, I do weed stuff out! On the other hand, I believe there's enough "good stuff" to make ET a worthwhile project. I hope you do too. But that's the nature of an Internet newsletter, folks. Let me reassure you that if ET were an automated list, with no moderation, you'd really have something to complain about! :-) If you'd like to suggest ways of improving the moderation of ET, please email me privately (toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk). Right now I don't want this to be a big meta-discussion in ET itself. I'm considering changing the name of ET to "Curate's Egg". Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:14:27 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: Tingles Hope this ain't off-limits yet, but I can recall two particular instances of tingles associated with KC music. The first was in December 1970, the day I first heard "Court". Back in those golden days of radio in New Zealand, before they became obsessed with ratings and when the audience, not the advertisers, were the prime concern, a government-owned station called 2ZM used to have a drive-time (4 - 7:30 pm) show in which, as well as all the latest chart stuff, they featured new album releases, generallly playing a good number of tracks from said albums over the course of the evening. At that time I was 16, and my musical tastes relatively unformed. My favourite bands were The Beatles and Creedence Clearwater Revival. I also liked what is now trendily called "lounge" music. My favourite classical music was Strauss waltzes. So one day I'm listening to this show and they were featuring a batch of new releases from a then-new label called Vertigo. One of them was "Court" (yes, it originally came out on Vertigo here, as did "Poseidon" and "Lizard" a bit later on). They played the title track, and I was completely blown away. Where DID this music come from? This was like tuning into another dimension. It was so "out there"! I think, over the course of the evening, they played the whole album. I know they played "Moonchild" because I was very taken with that track, and I'm pretty sure they played "Epitaph" too. Funny, but CCR never sounded the same again after that.... Fast-forward to 1973, and "Lark's Tongues" gets released in NZ. I bought it, rushed home, and put it on through the headphones ("cans" we called them back then). Lots of quiet tinkling, and what sounded like a guitar being gently picked. Then some quiet violin. I turned up the volume. Then it got a bit louder, and then a bit louder, then some drums came in, and then.... WHAMMM!!! In came the riff like a Panzer at full throttle. 24 years later my head is still suffering aftershocks! :-) David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:26:08 -0500 From: Eric Thorson Subject: review of new Gauchos album I recently purchased the new album from Los Gauchos Alemanes, entitled Little Beast, and would like to share the experience with other ET'ers. The group is composed of Guitar Craft alumni, Steve Ball, Fernando Kabusacki, and Hernan Nunez. The track listing is as follows- Fireplace (Ball) Miles, Miles (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez) Straycat (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez) Little Beast (Nunez) Cosmonauta K (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez) Voices of Ancient Children (Kabusakcki, Nunez) The Breathing Field (Ball) Cinco Latinos (Nunez) Valsicordio Andino (Kabusacki) Hot Fat Fish Frying in Butter (Schwutke) The Whip (Nunez) Ugly Enough (Kabusacki, Nunez) Cadillac '97 (Ball, Kabusacki) RockSlide (Ball) Burning Siesta (Nunez, Schwutke) Little Beast (Nunez) THRAK (Fripp) VROOOM (King Crimson) Ruthenian Song (Bela Bartok) Gunshot Superfly (Ball, Kabusacki) So, Twenty songs in all, some of the titles familiar to listeners of their previous album, Hot Fat Fish. "Voices" was included on the Sometime God Hides disc. "Burning Siesta" was, in a vastly different form, included on the LCG "Show of Hands" disc. If you are reading Elephant Talk, you are probably familiar with "THRAK" and "VROOOM". Los Gauchos Alemanes is a guitar group that works primarily in South America, specifically, Argentina. Steve Ball, however, is from the U.S. The first Gauchos album, Hot Fat Fish, was an Argentinan release available from possible productions. Steve Ball did not play on that album. Most of the tracks on Hot Fat Fish have been updated and recorded with better sound for Little Beast. The Gauchos are different from The California Guitar Trio, Europa String Choir, and Gitbox in that they use electric guitar sounds much more often. The Guitar Craft influence is definitely there, particularly on the older pieces, but this group seems to very intentionally be attempting to carve out its own voice. The range of influences is very like the cultural melange suggested by the groups's name. Guitar Craft melodies, country, surf music, modern classical, Andean folk, various kinds of pop and jazz swirl together in an intelligent, witty, aggressive, yet friendly style. The opening track, Fireplace, (familiar to listeners of Intergalactic Boogie Express) takes the original acoustic piece and electrifies it without taking away it's friendly appeal- until the end when the guitars are allowed to rage a little and put a few dents in the original melody. The rhythm of the chorus has also been played with a bit, turning what on the LCG album sounded like reggae into a stately march. The title track, "Little Beast" is a wonderful lazy fusion between country-western and Guitar Craft sensibilities. Its weepy melody was one of the first "hooks" on the album for me. There was a thread awhile ago in ET about what an unplugged Crimson would sound like. The acoustic version of VROOOM offered here might be a good answer. This clever, almost-tongue-in-cheek-but-still-reverent cover is a great listen. It was the only way I could get my wife to listen to that song. She hates King Crimson, but thought this version was exciting, sort of like Peter Gunn. She even danced in the living room to it. Gunshot Superfly, the last track, boasts Pat Mastelotto on drums. It is a strange fusion btween LCG style and Blaxploitation theme music. I have yet to totally understand it, and can see why it was separated from the album proper, but it adds to, rather than detracts from, the fun. To conclude, I reccomend this album to ETers and fans of good music everywhere. It can be purchased by sending $15.00 to Los Gauchos World HeadQuarters: 1416 Evergreen Point Road Medina, WA. 98039 USA It is an enhanced CD which even includes a video for "Voices of Ancient Children" Happy Listening! Eric Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:01:48 +0100 From: Neil Talbott Subject: Tingles in the Dark _ The Dutch Effect IN ET posting 414 mrknchew writes >It was quite impressive inspite >of being (like most paintings in this museum) "dark with age". After >several minutes of taking it in, I walked over to the 'name plate'. The >artist was Rembrandt, the painting title "The Night Watch". Bells rang, >lights went on, and 'tingles', all without a note being played. Ahem, I'm sorry but I thought anyone who'd read the Richard Palmer-James lyrics of 'The Night Watch' from SABB would have already grasped that it referred specifically to Rembrandt's painting pf 1642, originally titled 'Group Portrait of the Company of Frans Banning Cocq of the Arquebusiers', it only acquired the title of 'The Night Watch' at the end of the eighteenth century. However I'm deeply glad that this painting should have such a deep effect on the writer - and in Amsterdam of all places where KC played in '73, and the source of the new release of the same title. I experienced something similar when I viewed the work of another Dutch artist in the Courtaulds Institute, London where I came face to face with the work of Van Gogh. The effect of seeing an original Van Gogh was electrifying, it was as if my hair was on fire for the physicality of the paint of the canvas was extraordinary. I'm expressing this very poorly but I felt as if I'd been lifted beyond the normal space/time continuum for a few moments, a feeling no reproduction of a painting could ever put over. -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:19:20 +0100 From: Neil Talbott Subject: semantics...or romantics? In message , camuscar at globaldialog dot com writes >QUOTED: I don't know how much of a natural musician he is since (please, no >flames on this one) his playing feels laboured (could be a part of his >style/training). Nevertheless, he plays from the heart, so that's pretty >much all that matters, doesn't it? > >Funny, I feel just the opposite. My take is that RF's playing is fluid as >opposed to labored, and that he plays from his hands much more than his >heart. > >Mike > Reminds me of a comment RF made at the 'Gates of Paradise' Playback in June about playing for 12 hours at the Union Chapel London. To paraphrase - There was a point after several hours where he'd reached the edge of his technique, where his hands got to the point where his fluidity as a player was a redundant question, and he had entered a terra incognita where he had to discover a new language of expression for the guitar. The reason I like Fripp's playing, for all its technical gloss of perfection, is that it tears my heart out and alters my brain chemistry. There is passion there, ruled by discipline admittedly, but never the chilling cerebral quality that Mike associates with RF's playing. -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 02:36:10 -0500 Subject: the progressive alternative i'm writing in response to kevin holm-hudson. first let me say how good it is to know that someone else from the realm of collegiate composition has an appetite for king crimson. i took a ton of composition in college and always got the attitude from professors that somehow jazz was intellectual but rock taboo and simplistic (although i was able to turn on one prof. with Show of Hands by the League of Crafty Guitarists). your question is interesting. i know that Sleepless from Three if a Perfect Pair did get some radio play in L.A. because when i lived there a lot of people i knew recognized it from K-rock radio when i would play crimson for them. i think the basic problem arises from what i recently read in Brian Eno's diary. in today's popular music, music is only a piece of what sells a hit song along with style, clothing fashion, haircuts, cool videos, rebelious attitude, etc. and unfortunately they are probably just too damn old. even the mighty aura of led zeppelin didn't make page and plant's live album a "massive" success. to young fans zeppelin is stuck forever in their 70's prime and continue selling 20 year old albums while the real page and plant of today are too old. i have to say though if any band (zep, elp, yes, floyd etc.) has a possibility to break ground in the late 90's it's got to be crimson that will do it. they are one of the few older bands that possess the aggressive evil vibe that seems to sell a lot of bands to the younger crowd today. keep up the good work enlightening your students. i think the music of fripp, eno and their followers will be the new classical music of the late 20th century. ------------------------------ From: "Piotr Zlotkowski" Organization: Warsaw School of Economics Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:03:11 EST Subject: Me vs. ET or I, sinner or Convicted & Burnt Well, it's time to excuse myself. Firstly, I must ascertain that I am a die-hard King Crimson enthusiast. One of my friends believes that I'm off my nut. But I just cannot be uncritical - I'm not a snob pretending that I like everything King Crimson does. I'm not going to be insincere just to suck up to my god (well, I know some of you don't like such deification but I can't help it). OK, I probably exaggerated in my posting, but unawares: I was still impressed by ELP show. Anyway, my opinion was subjective so I don't think anybody should fret about it. I know the people who loved the Warsaw concert. And... hmm... does the reaction on my letter mean that the fault-finding ones are not allowed here ? And I have compared the quality of the -performances- only. Which means that ELP are in my view better than KC only -on stage-. It seems I've forgotten to admit that I feel sure that ELP are not the -artist- at all, nowadays. They are but -reproducers- of their old pieces, though they do it spectacularly and in a masterly manner. And KC are, with no doubt, ones of the most original -artists- of the contemporary music scene. RF: "Firstly, my knife throwing is unlikely to improve." PZ: "Knife throwing is the very strange example but... it's very nice to see a musician having good time on the stage along with his audience, not only going about his drudgery." RF: "Secondly, I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience." PZ: "Spitting on the people is very unkind way of showing that the artist notices their presence. But it's better than nothing. Dear Mr. Fripp, once upon a time you were speaking to your audience. Why don't you do it nowadays, instead of stealing in the darkest nooks of the stage ?" By the way, the saliva argument is truly embarassing. It was but a metaphor ! (sigh) And it hasn't been understood, I suppose. Besides, its author is T. Beksinski of Polish magazine "Only Rock" (I'll mention it later). I used his words for they reflected my opinion, as well. RF: "Thirdly, KC is not a group that is playing only the old tunes and is not experimenting." PZ: "Exactly ! So why ELP, who play their well-known pieces constantly, seemed to me to be better on stage ? I can't imagine what would happen if KC played with ELP-like enthusiasm and dramaturgy..." RF: "Fourthly, it seems eminently unfair that whereas an audient can choose their performer, the performer is unable to choose their audient." PZ: "King Crimson arrives to Poland once in 27 years, so a Polish audient can choose this group his performer once in 27 years. And King Crimson in my opinion was able to choose Poland. But wasn't choosing for the very long time. Is it fair ? And, last but not least, the tickets for the KC show cost one fifth to one tenth of the average monthly wage in Poland. So some of the Polish Crimheads simply couldn't afford this choosing... I didn't attempt to bootleg the concert ! I spent so much money on the ticket that I wanted to have some keepsake and a proof of my presence there. Of course, I'm aware that it was illegal. And I used a very simple cassette recorder - that's why the quality of my tape is poor. And, Mr. Fripp, I'm very sorry you don't want me to be your audient. Have I really deserved it ? But... the more you hurt me the more I love you. And I mean it. Love is blind. Dear Douglas (drobillard at hotmail dot com): yes, I believe the concert should be something more than only playing music well-known from the records. Dear Jurek Labuda (jlabuda at idg dot com dot pl): read the opinion on KC gig in the Only Rock magazine (August '96), please. Then you'll find it is not so enthusiastic as you suppose. And I do confirm there are lots of KC fans in Poland. But try to guess who first presented the live recordings from "Epitaph" in Radio WAWA, the one and only classic rock radio in Warsaw (and Poland). I did. Peter _________________________________________________________ P.S. Belzebub probably does not mean "the man with the aim". I have never met with such interpretation in any source. Before-mentioned name comes from Hebrew "Baal Zvuv" which means Master of the Flies (i.e. protecting from the insects) and was a name of one of the Phoenician gods (according to the Bible he was worshipped in Ekron). Afterwards he was identified (by Jews and Christians) with one of the devils, the prince of hell. ------------------------------ From: C dot M dot Wilson at btinternet dot com Date: 97-09-08 11:21:27 EDT You may be interested to know that the KC logo that first appeared on VROOOM and has been used extensively by the band since is remarkably identical to that of KIMBERLY CLARK, the people who manufacture toilet tissue and paper hand-towels. KIMBERLY CLARK are a high-profile Worldwide organisation and it seems very peculiar that the adoption of their logo has not been mentioned thus far. I would assume that the KC, i.e. King Crimson, logo was "designed" by The Bill Smith Studio who should have known better! I'm sure many of their staff members have used an office washroom or public toilet before and would have seen said logo when they came to wash their ink-stained hands or wipe their corporate bottoms. Perhaps not. Perhaps KIMBERLY CLARK who own the trademark would "accept no reason to give away such copyright interests which is out of tune with the time, was always questionable and is now indefensible" as Mr.Fripp would have it. Do KIMBERLY CLARK "contrary to common practice own the copyright" for their trademark? Do the original designers "assert their moral rights to the fruit of their labours"? Perhaps Mr. Fripp will enlighten us all (though I'm quite sure he has no knowledge of this). Sincerely, Chris Wilson, who incidentally has no connection with Kimberly Clark whatsoever but has used a public convenience on many an occasion (and NOT for the wrong reasons!). ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Frippertronics at Home -- Looping technology and Web Site Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:17:05 -0400 STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP For those readers of Elephant Talk interested in creating Frippertronics and Soundscapes like music, there are excellent resources about the tools and the players all just a short web-link away at LOOPERS DELIGHT: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html. The site -- like ET -- is also home for a net-mailing-list (digests every few days contain 10-12 posts), archives of postings, links to Looping Music. And I quote: "Looper's Delight is a cultural and informational resource for musicians creating with audio loops of every sort. Loop based music essentially involves the repetition of audio samples, or loops. From that basic premise looping moves off in numerous directions, encompassing a wide range of techniques for building, manipulating, and using loops. The technique crosses many musical boundaries and appears in a wide range of musical styles and genres." *Loop Artists *Loopers of the World *Loop Performances *Tools of the Trade *Tips and Tricks *Musings *History *Loopography *Mailing List Info *Mailing List Archive This page is maintained by Kim Flint. kflint at annihilist dot com PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE You may want to ask your questions about looping tools and practices to this very helpful and friendly community. That leaves ET to be a little less "musician-y" and a little more "music-y." THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS Additionally, if you are really really interested in reading about music in the spacey-atmospheric vien, there is a very very active and informative mailing list (1-3 digests a day with 20 or 30 posts). For info: ambient-request at hyperreal dot com ambient-digest-request at hyperreal dot com Message Body: subscribe Covers ambient artists like Brian Eno, the Orb, Steve Hillage, etc. Mngr: Have a nice day! David Kirkdorffer remember: LOOPERS DELIGHT: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html. CONTINUE CONTINUE CONTINUE CONTINUE CONTINUE CONTINUE CONTINUE ------------------------------ From: Spprt Rep 2 Subject: Beatles & Tingles Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 12:55:00 PDT To those of you who reminded me of who put Shakespeare in their music: I told you I might be nuts :) Tingles: 1. Echidna's Arf - By Frank Zappa. 2. Beethoven's 9th - 2nd movement 3. The crunchy noise in Easy Money 4. Close To The Edge - by Yes 5. Thick as a Brick - by Jethro Tull 6. Where's Harrison Ford - by Altered State (a verrry overlooked gem) Scottt Gold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:33:45 -0600 (MDT) From: mary piscitelli-umphres Subject: Lyrics KC lyrics have always been a soundscape in and of themselves. Sometimes a writer (poet, lyricist, etc.) uses the shape of the sound rather than the meaning of the word to make the music with words. A very nice churchy-kinda lady with whom I used to work was a bell ringer in her church, and she wrote poetry that sounded remarkably like bell ringing. So, the lyrics may be silly in content, such as your example of Elephant Talk, or they may be something a bit different. Listen to the lyrics of Under Heavy Manners by Fripp and Byrne. The play between sounds is extremely interesting!! (and yes, I do realize that some lyrics are storytelling, or trippy, or whatever, but I try to find a perspective of the reason why those sounds together make any song what it is.) Regarding the Holst comments: People have been copying Holst for a generation or so. A really good example, and one that I am suprised no one has written about in ET yet isthe use of all of the themes of The Planets in the Star Wars score. Listen to Darth Vader's thems, or the imperial stormtrooper music. Mars is very evident in tone and chord structure. I noticed it when I was about 12, and my musicologist sis concurred. Mary mpisc at unm dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) From: diagonal flying Subject: Lake Encounter on 48th st. Well, some members, current and past, of the group KC may not be open to fans in casual encounters, but one is... I was on my lunch break here in midtown Manhattanh, wearing my suit. I was walking out of Rudy's music on 48th, which has the best selection of high-end basses on 48th st. Just as I walk out the door, Greg Lake was standing in front of me. I smiled, offered my hand, which he shook as I told him I was a big fan. He smiled, and said thank you. I then told him to check out some of the new basses at Rudy's. He smiled again and said thanks. Made my day, especially since I spent my teen years doing a bad Greg Lake imitation in a number of groups. Regarding the discussion of his size, I'm 6'1" and 235 lbs. He was about a inch shorter, and perhaps a little heavier. Also, those of you who haven't bought 10 Seconds, do it, it is great, and very crimsoninsh. I also see that Michael Brook produced the new Julia Fordham. Not my fave, but the more $ he earns the better. And the Bozzio/Stevens/Levin release is incredible, especially if you are a player. Several Drummers I know are already ready to give it up after listening to Terry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:34:09 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: New DGM products I received my latest order from DGM-UK yesterday, only a couple of weeks or so after ordering (not bad considering I'm on the other side of the world!). As I haven't seen much mention in ET of these things I thought I'd describe them for any potential buyers. First, the "Epitaph" playback postcards. I confess I was a bit disappointed with these. They are large-format poscards, and beautifully printed, but the subject matter isn't terribly exciting: pictures of people milling about, getting stuff signed, or sitting and listening. I guess for anyone who was there these would make a nice souvenir, but for the rest of us I'm not so sure. The set could have been greatly improved by the inclusion of a nice shot of the five original KC members with the "Epitaph" artwork of the "Court" cover art, the original of both being on display there, as I recall from the accounts. I got the three Soundscapes signed posters too. These are very nice, and feature the cover art from the 1995 Soundscapes trilogy. I got the signed version: Robert Fripp signed each print in gold ink. They will look nice framed. Finally I got the three most recent Soundscapes discs, "That Which Passes", "November Suite" and the "Pie Jesu" single. "That Which Passes" gets my vote as the best of the three 1995 Soundscapes discs. There's some real variety of texture and timbre here, and by the end of the disc you feel as thouhg you've been on quite a journey. And all in under 45 minutes! "November Suite" may well be the best Soundscapes disc to date. There is some breathtakingly beautiful and spacey moments on this. I really like it. "Pie Jesu', as has been mentioned here before, has three tracks from the eternally-forthcoming "Gates of Paradise" disc (which will be worth the extended wait if these are any indication). One of these tracks, "Sometimes God Hides", has already appeared on the compilation of the same name. A fourth tracks is from "That Which Passes". My only gripe: I am starting to tire of Robert Fripp's tirades against the music industry in the sleeve notes to these discs, especially when the same quites appear on more than one CD. While I don't disagree with a word he says, I think by now the point has been made, and maybe it's time to move on to more positive things. Counting down the days until I receive "The Night Watch"..... David Maclennan ------------------------------ From: "Mathews, Thomas J." Subject: gig type / thinking of thinking Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:12:00 -0400 >Gigs and people who type before they think! >From JRHARTLET at aol dot com >After having checked the Jazz cafe and phoned them up, there most >certainly is a band performing from the 1st of Dec to the 4th who are called >'Project One' , or somthing like that. It features (from an imperfect memory) >Fripp, Bruford,Levin, and I think Trey? Presumabaly not King Crimson as >Adrian is not included. This could possably be an acoustic gig being a small >venue, but I'm just guessing. Go to Trey's www: www.treygunn.com to find out something very interesting about this gig. (I'm seeking work as a drink server on a leer jet to London for that week.) Also, check out the hilarious and perhaps sad WOW! on-line interview. >"but no body 'should' die unless of cousre they have killed someone else > with intent to do so." I'm quoting you here JR because you have warmed my dander and not because of the typo. 'Of course'?, I hope you just forgot the crucial IMHO. We can have a death penalty thread after Adrian writes lyrics about it. o-o continue o-o ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:00:41 -0400 From: John Ambrose Subject: singable lyrics Hi... I like the discussion of the difference between how lyrics look on a page, and how they come across when sung. I'm a huge Rush fan, and I think a really good example of this is the song "Dog Years" off of TEST FOR ECHO. When I first read the lyrics, they seemed a little silly. I was interested to see how Geddy Lee could sing the words "dog years" without it sounding corny and stupid. Then, when I listened to the song, he mananged to make the whole song sound great. I think it's a testament to Geddy Lee's great talent on vocals. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:21:22 -0400 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: Another response to Dave D. (home Frippertonics) Specifically regarding query #4 (whether anyone uses the two Revox set-up). I still do things using two decks, although they are Tandbergs, not Revoxes. Neither has speed control, as Fripp used on his machines, and so I have to use the faster deck for take-up (to avoid having a pile of tape on the floor after a few minutes). They are quite close in speed, however, so there's never been a problem with tape streching that I've noticed. One "problem" with not having speed control is its effect on the signal, as well as noise build-up. While this can sometimes cause difficulties, it can also yield interesting results, so there is a trade-off. (Shameless plug: my LP "Dimensions"). For a REALLY lo-fi test (actually the first delays I tried doing), since I only had one Tandberg at the time, I used a cheap SEARS! portable deck for the return. Not wanting to merely copy the instrumental stuff I'd heard using this technique, I tried using it for reciting poetry, figuring that the short lines would be ideally suited to repeating patterns. The results were quite intriguing because the return signal, although slightly distorted, was still audible after several generations, but developed a nice burbling kind of sound. This meant that, although still audible, it did not interfere with new input, and could still be referred to. I often feel one of the pieces should have a wider audience than it has had so far (anyone up for a compilation tape of loop/delay stuff?). I'd better stop now before I drone on and on until I foam at the mouth and fall over backwards. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:38:34 -0500 From: Francois Couture <93039260 at callisto dot si dot usherb dot ca> Organization: Universiti de Sherbrooke Subject: A prog radio show web site I live in Sherbrooke, Quebec (Canada) where I host two radio shows on CFLX 95,5, a community station. One is called Delire actuel and is dedicated to musical avant-gardes : free-jazz, avant-rock, experimental, computer music, electroacoustics, etc.(Thrakattak plays here) The other is called Delire musical ans is devoted to prog and its derivatives, rock and fusion-jazz.(All other KCs play here a lot) Both shows now have their own web site Delire actuel : http://www.cflx.qc.ca/actuel Delire musical : http://www.cflx.qc.ca/delire Sites contain reviews, playlists, and the Delire musical archives : every song played since the first show in May 1995. Check out what KC and Fripp songs has been broadcasted! I would like to put ET's URL on my links pages. I would appreciate if you could do the same. I will also put information on how to subscribe to ET. And please feel free to run this message in ET. Thanks again for the great work! Francois Couture ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:15:34 -0400 From: Don Cooper Subject: League of Gentlemen Hi Et'ers, In response to the recent posts about obtaining a LOG CD, here's my understanding: The original album was repackaged in about 1985 (on vinyl) and included God Save The King, which was also previously available separately. This then came out on CD and is currently available through Possible Productions or your local store if you're lucky. Davis Byrne is on the Frippertronics (maybe even some Discotronics) portion of the album, but, of course was not in LOG. I've never seen the entire LOG album on CD. If everything I just said is obvious, and the real question is whether the original LOG LP is availble in CD form, then (duh!) I've never seen it either, and would love to buy one too. BTW, does anyone else hear a KC influence in Marilyn Manson? (As he ducks to avoid the flames coming his way.) Thanks, Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:13:31 -0400 From: Worth Godwin Subject: In the Wake of the Master (Crimson music on TV) I'm resending the following because it never made it to the list, so please excuse the possibly outdated thread: >Interesting: I saw part of a TV documentary on the Bermuda Triangle >sometime in the early '80s--I think it was on PBS, but I could be >wrong--and damned if they didn't also use a snippet of KC's "The Devil's >Triangle" on the soundtrack! There was no credit shown for Crimson, >though. Now if the band had been honest and titled that track "Mars," It >would have shown up in space exploration documentaries instead... Hi, I've just joined and was expecting to lurk for a bit before posting, but seeing this thread, I thought I'd respond. About two or three years ago I was watching a Doctor Who story called The Mind of Evil. This story featured the Master, one of the Doctor's enemies, who has a goatee, and looks a bit like the devil -- at the beginning of one scene the Master is sitting in the back of a limo listening to a radio which he switches off a couple of seconds later -- what I suddenly realized was the Master was listening to The Devil's Triangle! Rather apropos, I think. 8) Worth -=-=- The TARDIS Databanks: http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/drwho/ Personal homepage: http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:08:45 -0700 From: spike Subject: My spaceship is here, but... Ok, so I have my $5 shipfare in copper, silver, or nickel coins. I have my rubber soled shoes on so that I can proceed without disturbing others. I have a snack so that I don't get hungry and grouchy while waiting. My ship is finally here to take me to a wonderous place following in the wake of a tremendous comet, but I'm told that I may not take my whole CD collection, only 10. So here is what I am taking. 1:UK - because it is my favorite. 2:Red and sneak in Lizard (they probably won't notice) 3:Beat and also slip in ToaPP (I hope they don't check) 4:Gong, Gazuese 5:Gradually Going Tornado (Oh Bill, you have so many great ones) 6:Brubeck, Time Further Out (well I don't know, maybe I will take another Bruford) 7:World Diary (so that I can rattle the ships' deflectors) 8:N.F.AliKahn/Brook, Night Song (who knows, maybe somebody there will be able to translate the words for me) 9:Foxtrot 10:THRaKaTTaCK (for when I want to be alone(it tends to scare people away)) Is that all I can take? Well forget it, I'm not going! Take it easy, Spike from San Diego, California, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way (-kv-) ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:12:07 -0500 Subject: i give up it seems no matter what i write someone at e.t. needs to tell me how wrong i am with every opinion i have. someone else attacked crimson's lameness live with seeing elp doin' the hits so i made a case for crimson contributing more the the future of modern music in a compositional sense. then someone yelled at me for that by telling me there are only 12 keys and everything's been done. when i corrected this to 24 keys of major, relative minor, modes etc. but agreed everything's been done i got attacked for my apparent stupidity by one of e.t's own staff who seemed to think i meant everything's been done within the tonal system. now i am yelled at for having a sarcastic tone after reading letter after letter attacking me. its unfortunate that kevin h.h. in the earlier digests, didn't read why i had an air of sarcasm, especially when i had a really positive agreement to his last writing. i don't get it. i like to talk about music and king crimson. i've read and studied about both for most of my life. i would think that if people have such an interest in music they would get their basics of music from clear and accurate sources about its primary building blocks. i am not a final source of all that's right and true and i never wish to be but certain things like how many keys there are don't seem like an opinion to me. i don't know why my opinions should always provoke anger and responses so different to others who pour out their thoughts and opinions. i like things to be clear specific and accurate and i apologise to all that think there is something wrong with that. ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: glutton for punishment one more response to kevin holm-hudson. i don't second guess fripp's use of red era crimson style in the 90's band at all. like many others it probably is my favorite period as well and i, like others, was happy to hear a return to the aggressive "metal" edge of those older releases. i don't think there's anything wrong with an artist who has tried many different approaches using the one his fans liked the most. it's still his style he is using. i still think everything has been done within music somewhere yet i love music and new music both listening and composing. back to harry partch and milton babbit the question is how much "new" music has gained an audience of actual enthusiasts. i think the person who has been most successful at creating something new is brian eno. (and yes, he in turn got his ideas from the minimalists and avante guard composers). maybe mass acceptance shouldn't be a criteria for the "quality" of new music. to me it seems like the old tree falling in the forest making sound with no one to hear it. harry partch's tree fell but how many people really heard it and after hearing wanted to hear it again? his ideas are great and waiting for other's to build on them but i haven't seen the results as of yet. so maybe i should learn to shut up and not expose my thinking to others, but like i said i guess i'm a glutton for punishment. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:47:56 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Phase 1? Project 1? > From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com > Subject: Gigs and people who type before they think! > > After having checked the Jazz cafe and phoned them up, there > most > certainly is a band performing from the 1st of Dec to the 4th who are > called > 'Project One' , or somthing like that. I find it most telling that on Trey Gunn's website (http://www.treygunn.com) the band is billed as (his spelling intact here): PROJEkCT ONE Trey goes on to write: "Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn, Tony Levin & Bill Bruford play 4 nights of improvisation at the Jazz Cafe in London, England. December 1-4, 1997" Sounds to me like a Thrakattack. Perhaps the songwriting sessions at Adrian's home (with Adrian, Robert and Trey involved, as memory serves) supplied part of the new album's material, and these jam sessions will serve to germinate further, more instrumental material. Whatever the case, I once again am in the position of envying the British ETers. Any chance of an American blow, DGM? Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:51:08 -0700 From: Herb Boardman Subject: OOOPS and a blatant solicitation Organization: Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of One Another Greetings, all. I posted recently on a "bootleg" cd from VIP records with Jamie Muir on four of the eight tracks. He isn't. But the second 4 are definitely stolen from the Great Deceiver box set. I say SUE!!! And for my smashing misuse of this forum, my co-players and I are always looking for new musicians to possibly form some sort of band with. (hidden internet joke there.) In the Eugene, Oregon USA area, but out-of-towners are welcome. We have drums aplenty (me), bass/vocals, and guitar. An Ian MacDonald/Mel Collins wannabe would be a plus. But even violin, keyboards, STICK....? We are called Ice Nine, and play....oh....progressive? That'll do. Regards, Mike Holst If one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is. --Hannibal Lector ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:40:59 -0700 From: Poisson Subject: Dutch Paintings > After several minutes of taking it in, I walked over to the 'name > plate'. The artist was Rembrandt, the painting title "The Night > Watch". Bells rang, lights went on, and 'tingles', all without a > note being played. > > If any fellow Crim-Heads make it to Amsterdam, be sure to check it > It will be a true Crimson moment, at least it was for me. The same thing occured to me two years ago when I saw the Night Watch painting, and that very song kept playing in my head afterwards when I visited the Vermeer exposition near The Hague. I associate some of the feelings conveyed by the '73-'74 incarnation of Crimson to the dark beauty of Dutch paintings. Has anybody else experienced this strange relationship between painting and (crimson) music. Some that spring to mind are John Miller paintings which adorn the recent soundscapes series, and fit beautifully well with the music. So that's two reasons for making this Crimson-trip to Amsterdam - I don't want to hear about a third reason :) Thomas ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #417 ********************************