Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #408 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 408 Wednesday, 13 August 1997 Today's Topics: Gordon Haskell The Ultimate Tingle (and other things) Intervals Epitaph review Unknown song ; help me ! letter from Robert doctor diamond in the cave Was Fripp "Damaged" by Sylvian? Aesthetics; Tingles; kudos to Ted White ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:53:00 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: Gordon Haskell There's a very interesting interview / article by Gordon Haskell in the latest edition of We'll Let You Know. I won't spoil it except to say that GH describes Crimson as a cross he's had to carry for years. Very interesting stuff about what motivates and influences him. Almost essentail stuff if you like me have wondered what the deal was with Haskell and his departure and subsquent airbrushing from history. You can get subscription details from Darren Woolsey on Darrenwlyk at Compuserve dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:17:13 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: The Ultimate Tingle (and other things) Yes, all the examples of the "Tingle" factor are very good ones. Perhaps many of those moments have something to do with a quality we use the term "soaring" for: think of how the sax line at the climax of "Starless" breaks away - or "flies free" if you will - from the crunching guitar that builds to it. Compare that to the choral build up in "River Deep, Mountain High" - long sustained notes suddenly arising out of a steadily increasing foundation. Beethoven achieved it in the Ninth Symphony by taking his theme, which had been voiced individually by four singers in increasingly complex juxtapositions, delaying the climax of the movement with a short, hesitant, and almost timid passage, then finally allowing the four main voices to unite with the chorus and sound the theme in joyous unison - the special pleasure of delayed gratification. But for the *ultimate* tingle, the tingle to end all tingles, the tingle that takes you to heaven and back again (literally), nothing I have yet heard surpasses the closing moments of Gustav Mahler's Second Symphony (The "Resurrection"). It was Mahler's soundtrack for his vision of transcendence, and having now twice shared the experience with thousands of other weeping, overwhelmed concertgoers, I'd have to say he glimpsed something very universal. I sincerely hope that this is last piece of music I hear before I die. (Buy the Simon Rattle/City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra version on EMI Classics.) Two other comments: Regarding KC's "low" output. I will not enter into the quantity/quality debate, which will always be theoretical at best. Instead I refer to the recent Fripp interview in Guitar Magazine (or Guitar Player? Or some other Guitar publication?) in which he mentions that it can cost as much as $30,000 to bring the six members of KC together in the same place with gear for a week. Fripp may be brilliant, but he is nothing if not infinitely practical as well. [ Technical stuff about Analogue vs Digital reluctantly snipped by your smiling moderator, because it's a dead thread. -- Toby ] Ken Lacouture Q: Which KC record was the best? A: You're absolutely right. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:13:28 -0500 (CDT) From: cain joren reid Subject: Intervals Here's the deal: 4ths, 5ths, and octaves are "Perfect". If you raise them, they are "Augmented", if they are lowered-"Diminished". 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths are "Major" or "Minor". If you lower a "Minor" interval another 1/2 step, it is "Diminished" (i.e. Dim. 2nd=bb 2nd=unison). If you raise a "Major" interval, it is also called "Augmented". By the way, who else thinks "Industry" should be played on Crimson's next tour? It's the perfect song for this lineup (and is great anyway). Joren Cain [ OK: this is now the latest "Dead Thread". ET is not about music theory, people! Private email for discussions of this nature please. -- Thanks, Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:34:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SteveM at pluto dot njcc dot com Subject: Epitaph review For anyone who may be interested, there is a review of the 4CD version of Epitaph in this month's issue of Cosmik Debris (www.cosmik.com). Any comments are welcome, of course.. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:21:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: vergnaud at unilim dot fr (Michel Vergnaud) Subject: Unknown song ; help me ! A long time ago, a friend of mine gave me a tape with, on one side, the excellent 'I advanced masked' by R.Fripp and A.Summers, and on the other one 'Beat' that everyone here knows. But after 'Requiem', the last piece on Beat, my friend filled the tape with something... It's a rather long song with three guitar solos, each of them growing in intensity and virtuosity ; sometimes one can hear some kind of guitar loops ; an organ is also playing ; the main theme of lyrics is 'I coming home' (no ! the guitar player is NOT Alvin Lee !!! :). Though being very interested in KC and Robert Fripp music, I don't know every song they made. So I ask for your help : who can help me giving a name on this song ? Et'ers who want to play the game (nothing to win, except for my thanks) has just to ask me by private email (vergnaud at unilim dot fr) a sample of the song intro ; I zipped a 30 seconds very low quality .wav file, about 300 kbytes, which I'll send you back. By the way, I never read in ET the name of Joelle Leandre. She's a French cellist ; I'm sure her music can be very interesting to KC lovers. Try it! ---------------------------- Michel Vergnaud I.R.C.O.M. Electromagnetisme Universite de Limoges FRANCE ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 97 06:12:41 EDT From: Discipline Global Mobile Subject: letter from Robert DGM World Central, PO Box 1533, SALISBURY, Wiltshire, SP5 5ER. UK. (44)1722 781042: fax August 12th. 1997. Dear Team, Several recent posters have asked the question: "What is happening with Possible Productions"? First, the generality; secondly, the specific; thirdly, the generality; fourthly, the specific. And then something else. I History recap: Possible Productions (a name coined by Robert) was originally set up by Mark Perry in California during 1993 to release Discipline Global Mobile records. PP became a succesful mail order shop, largely because of Mark's heroic labours with the support of Cheryl, his wife. Mark's Possible Productions company, although nominally representing DGM as a record company, never in fact developed to the point that it actually did so. Possible Productions was responsible for mail order sales, and placing the distribution in stores, of DGM records. Possible Productions belonged to Mark and was not technically connected, other than in name, with either myself or the formally constituted UK company of Possible Productions. As Mark's operation developed it seemed to me that PP in California was not actually a record company. So, we separated out DGM from PP and became independent of Mark in August 1996, with an office manager for DGM who had worked with Mark at PP and who had been involved in Guitar Craft, and various other projects with me, over a period of 12 years. When DGM planned to release its own limited mail order (with "Epitaph" Volumes 3 & 4) Mark chose to withdraw from his operation, and we took over the mail order business in mid-March 1997. On March 10th., 1997, at 09.05 Pacific time, David Singleton and I terminated by telephone the DGM office manager's employment, after a total of six months and two weeks. This followed our increasing concerns regarding developments within that office. Five hours later our former office manager withdrew $30,000 of the company's money (which we later recovered). The following morning he returned to the office and removed company documents, cheque books and records of transactions. On the afternoon of 27th. March we received at the PP / DGM office in Los Angeles a hand-delivered package from the former manager's attorney containing company cheque books, receipts for purchases, and two document files. However, the former manager continued to withold DGM electronic mail, and the passwords which enabled us to access that mail. (The DGM e-mail accounts had been set up in the manager's own name, contrary to our wishes). Currently, there are internal and EDD audits underway in Los Angeles of the PP operation and it would be inappropriate for me to presently comment on our current and likely future relationship with the former manager. So, when DGM / PP took on mail order, our office manager left with company documents, cheque books, money and e-mail access. We were unable to access our e-mail for several weeks. Hugh flew out from DGM World Central in Wiltshire to Los Angeles in mid-March to pick up the pieces and assess the damage. The direction of DGM, the record company, returned to us in England. PP in California retuned and returned to the same model of one-stop mail order shopping which Mark had developed. Jeff, who had worked with Mark Perry, became an instant and continuing Hero, in charge of mail order. Amy joined the office in June as manager. It took several weeks to deal with the backlog of orders, both postal and locked into our inaccessible e-mail. Jeff and Amy proudly announced that as of 7th. July they had moved PP order-processing onto a same-day basis. Both Jeff and Amy are commitment workers rather than career employees. Jeff is a himself a collector, and has made valuable suggestions for future approaches and strategies at PP, and Amy left a safe and promising corporate background to join us at a time of great difficulties. My personal and professional apologies to anyone who suffered frustrations, difficulties and delays with their orders during this transitional time. Doubtless, we lost the loyalty of some of our audience. But at least they now have information and may better judge to what degree any delays or lost orders were the result of our own carelessness, or an arbitrary capriciousness within the company. II Now, to the specific. In ET 400, Date: 24 Jul 1997, Mike Spindloe of The Vinyl Exchange in Saskatoon, Canada, has some comments: From: vinylex at the dot link dot ca (Mike Spindloe) Subject: mail order ethics MS: I hate to have to waste my time and newsletter bandwidth with the following negative comments about Possible Productions' mail-order service ... RF: And then does so. MS: ... but I think you'll see why: RF: Or not, depending upon one's perspective. MS: First, a bit of persepctive: I own a small independent used/new record/CD store in Saskatoon, which for the geographically challenged is in the middle of nowhere, Canada. I have also run Pawn Hearts, the newsletter/ archive/mail order service specialising in the works of Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator, for about 10 years, so I've had a chance to form some reasoned opinions about both buying and selling recordings through the mail. RF: Peter Hammill is well known for pioneering independent releases and mail order since the mid 1970s. MS: Back around March, I emailed PossProd (PP henceforth) asking if it would be possible to purchase six copies of the 4CD version of "Epitaph" for resale at some sort of a wholesale discount. I was aware that it was not their intention to sell the complete set to retailers and made note of that in my initial email and at least two subsequent ones, but decided to make the request anyway ... RF: So although Mike knew that it was not the intention of PP to sell complete sets to retailers, he wanted us sell complete sets to a retailer. Somehow, I sense that trouble is about to follow. MS: ...since I had a few customers who preferred to deal with me rather than Canada Post/Customs... RF: An alternative would have been for Mike's customers to have dealt with PP directly and become PP customers. MS: ... which seem to specialize in making it as difficult and expensive as possible to buy anything from the U.S., a holdover from the days when our $ was worth more, and things could actually be got cheaply from the U.S.. RF: Any international border is a pain to a mail order company, and the Canadian border is a stinker. The European Union has revolutionised trading on the continent. MS: Anyway, two months passed and I received a series of non-answers to my query from PP... RF: Sometimes a non-answer is an answer, especially when the answer is "no". MS: ... among which was a form letter describing their new releases and better yet, a suggestion that I should order the box from Cargo, whom they weren't even selling the 4CD version to anyway! RF: I agree: that's an impressively dopey suggestion and I'd like to know who made it. MS: (BTW, Cargo was WHOLESALING the 2CD version to Canadian retailers for $37CDN/$27US approx, ie more than the retail cost by mail from PP before shipping... RF: You mean, PP prices are reasonable? For the information of record purchasers, DGM, along with other record companies, is not allowed to set the store price of their albums. This is under consumer-oriented legislation which prohibits Resale Price Maintenance. So, for example, it is possible for Tower Records to undercut sales by the company which supplies them. This may help explain the trading position to the recent ET poster who found the KC video cheaper in Tower than by mail order from PP. But the poster didn't follow through his thinking: in attributing the PP pricing policy to my undeniable and acknowledged greed, he failed to think this through - why not attribute generosity and charitable impulses to Tower Records? Surely this is as reasonable a conclusion? Mark Perry, in accepting orders for the complete KC / RF catalogue (i.e. through Virgin) didn't claim to be the cheapest supplier in the marketplace. He aimed to provide one-stop shopping for Crim-enthusiasts, should they wish. We have continued to follow Mark's lead. MS: ...(which is the next issue). RF: And not just for you. MS: And I ordered the KC Japan video from Cargo in January and I'm still waiting, which gives you an idea what THEIR service is like. RF: Even worse than PP? Wow. Actually, PP have themselves had difficulties dealing with Cargo from the Mark Perry days. MS: Eventually I relinquished the idea of a discount and ordered the 6 copies anyway, since I was as anxious to hear it as my customers. RF: Good for you - a commitment music shop. But maybe this would have been the best approach from the beginning? MS: Two MONTHS later (long after I started reading "Epitaph" reviews in ET), they finally arrived with the predictable customs hassles and posted to the wrong address. RF: Canadian Customs are beyond our control, but apologies for the wrong address. At one time we had part-time help to clear the backlog but when the assistant, upon being reproved for mis-spelling a customer's name on a posting label, replied "It's only mail order" we felt the assistant's future was waiting for them outside PP's mail order department. I asked PP in Los Angeles to comment. Jeff the Hero sent me the following information: " Mr. Spindloe's e-mail date: May 23rd. Printed out: May 26th. Input into the PP system: June 13th. Mailed out of LA: June 18th. If it took two months for Mr. Spindloe to receive his order, that would mean the US / Canadian mail took another five weeks." MS: Adding the final insult to injury, however, was the postage charge:$37.85US, based on 15% of the cost of the order plus registration (which I didn't ask for). RF: I asked Jeff in Los Angeles to comment. He writes: "Our order-form states all orders outside the US are sent that way unless the customer mails us, or faxes us a signed request not to register their mail. There are too many lost international packages for us to just trust the mail." MS: Actual amount of postage on the box: $12.22, less than 1/3 of the amount charged. Now, I can understand a reasonable charge for handling and packing, but as someone noted in a recent ET, that's a lot of handling! My own standard procedure over the years has been to round up the postage to the nearest dollar to cover the cost of a record mailer or padded envelope, and I'm well aware that some places charge a little more than this (or less...). RF: Jeff's comment: "The two people who have complained about our shipping charges (that I know of) were both record dealers looking to resale." Robert's comment: Charges for handling / postage have been an ongoing debate at PP / DGM since the beginning, and different firms adopt different approaches. In the US our current policy (under ongoing review) is 15% of the order. In the UK we have a flat fee per order. Any policy aims to reduce the time taken to compute the amount of postage, thus reducing costs, and aims at an overall balance of fairness. The Wine Society and Book Protectors (two UK mail order firms of which I am a customer) both have different policies regarding their postage / handling charges. For ET readers' interest, in the UK we probably lose on every non-DGM title we sell, but maintain as full a catalogue as our customers require. Once again, we have learnt from Mark Perry and "one-stop shopping" for the Crim / related enthusiast. MS: But a difference of $25 amounts to GOUGING (yes, I'm shouting)... RF: It is a wisdom to be sure of your position before shouting. And a greater wisdom not to shout. MS: ... and I will not support these kinds of business practices any further because they are simply unethical (notice how I resisted shouting that last word). RF: Congratulations on the eventual application of self restraint. But what are "these kinds" of business practices? And how are they unethical? MS: Interestingly enough, a recent catalogue from Wayside Music, informed me that they would no longer be stocking DGM releases "due to a number of factors, some of them showing the worst side of the record business." RF: Not only is Mike interested, but also Robert. I would be grateful if he, or anyone else, would inform me of Wayside Music's concerns. It IS unethical, though, to publicly impute to DGM practices "showing the worst side of the record business" without substantiating what these are. Where a mistake has been made, I am happy to address the mistake. MS: Of course I sent PP an email politely (I hope) expressing my feelings about this issue. Three weeks later, I have not received any response. RF: And now you have. Although the first response was probably more appropriate. MS: In the DGM newsletter one, dated January 1997, which I received with my copies of "Epitaph," Mr. Fripp basically states that record stores are ineffective ways to distribute product, because "high street" stores don't cater to our specialised tastes and you'll have to (gasp) travel to get to specialised shops. RF: Like my visits to specialised bookstores, you mean? MS: Well, Mr. Fripp, as you say a few paragraphs later, collectors do like to collect, and I think it will be a sad day indeed when we all just sit at home, glued to our all-powerful computer screens and just download music. Certainly the music retail business is dominated by faceless megastores these days, just like most everything else but there are still many like myself who are in it because we love music first... RF: My personal character is so flawed and consumed with avaricious intent that there is no surprise to learn that DGM, KC, PP, GC and other bright Fripp wheezes are carefully constructed schemes to prise open the innocent hands of completists, collectors and connoisseurs, even students, and seize from their opened palms a clasp of their hard-earned pay. MS: ... and to denigrate our efforts is an insult... RF: Mike suggests I denigrate the efforts of "many like (himself) who are in it because (they) love music first". ET readers are aware from the many postings of hard done-by innocents of Fripp's ingratitude, arbitrary rudeness and other unsavoury personal characteristics, that I shall not seek to defend the impoverishment of my nature. However, I went back to the Newsletter and looked for any remark which might be construed as denigrating or insulting to a specialist shop like Mike's, but without success. He also overlooks that PP mail-order is itself a small, specialised record shop. Mike has misrepresented my position (which is not unusual, nor a matter of surprise). But he has insulted PP staff on spurious grounds, which is severely out of order. MS: ... and to refuse to sell us product an injury. RF: Several points: 1. We were bound by our exclusive distribution agreement with INDI to not supply anyone other than INDI. Contractually, legally, and in good faith, we were unable to supply Mike, or anyone else, wholesale. (This has now changed). 2. David Singleton and I took the decision to sell Epitaph Vols. 3 & 4 by mail order only. The reason for this was that, at the time, it seemed to be impossible to bring the sonic quality up to an acceptable standard for a full store release. 3. As a single record shop Mike the The Vinyl Exchange vies for customers, to a small degree, PP the Mail Order Shop. Where PP the MO Shop has exclusive rights to mail-order certain DGM products we have a trading advantage over Mike and The VE. Where Tower Records can afford to sell DGM videos (and records) cheaper than PP they have the advantage over us. The name for this phenomenon is "competition". Back to Jeff, collector and PP West Coast Hero: "The bottom line (I believe) is that we have a hot little title (Epitaph Vols. 3 & 4) we are not selling wholesale." 4. The problem began with Mike asking us to change our trading policy, and break our trading agreement, in order that he might supply "a few customers" of his own. We didn't do that, at least to Mike's satisfaction. Then, he got pissy. Then, he got pissy in a public forum and insulted PP staff, and misrepresented my published views. I am not impressed. MS: The irony of using my computer to voice these complaints is not lost on me, by the way! I could go on and bore you all even further, but I think the salient points have been made. RF: My response is not boredom and the salient points were, mostly, not salient. MS: Anyone have similar experiences? RF: Quite a few. MS: Or just want to flame me? RF: I'd rather spit on your foot. MS: Oh, by the way Robert: I do like "Epitaph" very much. RF: Perhaps the anticipation helped? MS: And it was a dream come true to see those KC shows in Vancouver and Seattle in '96. RF: I doubt that you have any idea of the grief it caused me to get there. MS: So, uh, thanks! RF: Right. I am surprised that Mike, a person upon whom irony is not lost, does not point out the irony that Robert, the person primarily responsible for his grief is, apparently, concerned with quality in one part of his life (music) and so devoid of it, even unethical, in another (musical supplies). But then, perhaps Fripp is inconsistent. Back to Jeff: "A Four CD set (with a booklet) for $35.00 (what we charge) is unheard-of in the retail marketplace. That is generally the cost of a used 4 CD set. Any changes made to shipping fees will require a re-structuring of our mail-order `item' prices in the catalog. There are so many other issues connected to this that it would require a couple of hours discussion." III Thirdly, the generality. There is a consistent thread present in (probably all) the complaints I have read in ET, in fan / enthusiast letters directed to me, and in the more brittle personal encounters of which only a small proportion have been detailed in ET, but which remain etched upon my psyche. This is the consistent thread: a particular something (Robert to jump about onstage, sign autographs, welcome photography and recording, even supply records wholesale) is wanted / expected / demanded. This is not met (despite the clear right and entitlement to it / that on various grounds by the frustrated fan / enthusiast / record retailer). Then, a negative reaction. Then, the negative reaction is blamed on RF / PP / whoever. Then, the negativity is put out into the world. Then, the negativity spreads as if by contagion. What happens next is a subtle and important topic, particularly for any ET readers actively involved in solving problems, disputes and various politicking; and for those interested in the practical end of spiritual studies. But ET is not the forum for a discussion of subtleties, or possibly even a forum for discussion. The first considerable freedom conferred by a craft training is freedom from like and dislike; which doesn't imply that we stop liking the things we like, or disliking the things we dislike, but that they no longer have such a compelling hold over us and our behaviour. It takes the sincere student 12-14 years of continuing practice to have a taste of that freedom. This is the view I adopt: In other than a situation of deliberate provocation, I hold an individual responsible for their reactions and responses. If I am personally involved, I may or may not (depending on the conditions of time, place and person) call them on their reaction / response and ask them to acknowledge responsibility. IV Fourthly, the specific. There was an interesting post from earlier this year (Charity Upchurch?) commenting on de Saussure's dictum of the arbitrariness of linguistic signs. I'm not sure de Saussure is totally correct. Another view is that (at least some) contemporary forms of writing descending from ancient ideograms (Charlotte Bach deals with the Chinese) still manage to resonate with an echo of the intent and content placed in them by the remarkable people who constructed those forms. But, that's another story and, once again, probably not one for ET. My own suggestion is that language conspires to convey the truth, despite our attempts to bend it to our fashion and purposes. It is instructive to apply this notion to the recent posting from Piotr Zlotkowski, along with Mike the Vinyl Exchanger's, in ET 400. "From: "Piotr Zlotkowski" Organization: Warsaw School of Economics Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:00:10 EST Subject: King Crimson versus ELP (RF interjection: ELP and Crimson are not in opposition). Alex Brugger writes on #396: >KC are as fresh and powerful as they've always been Well, I must disagree. I've seen KC's concert about a year ago in Warsaw and even recorded the whole show (hey, Mr. Fripp, don't shoot at me, the quality is really very poor - even worse than on the 3rd volume of "Epitaph", so I'm not going to diffuse it) ... (RF interjection II: Is this for real?). ... and every time I listen to that tape, or recall the performance, I find the music, particularly in the 2nd hour, incredibly boring and incoherent. All these improvs, long and leading to nowhere, and passive RF's behaviour (if he had only spat on the audience like Roger Waters I would have been pleased) made me disappointed. Sometimes I wonder if it was RF himself sitting between the two drum kits, or a dummy. The older pieces like "Red", "Schizoid Man", "The Talking Drum" sounded well, but not sensationally. To sum up: no deeper feelings. Listening to "The Great Deceiver" and "Epitaph" sets I must state that formerly the group was playing definitely far better. Those improvs from the seventies were acceptable, as KC were using strictly rock instruments sounding naturally. Nowadays, RF's and AB's guitars produce modern electronically processed sounds I truly dislike. Let's compare KC with the group that is playing only the old tunes and is not experimenting. About a month ago I had an unquestionable pleasure to watch ELP's concert in Katowice, Poland (on 22nd June). Unlike KC's show, this one was really powerful, rousing, moving... and so on. They were playing their greatest pieces like "Take A Pebble", "Bitches Crystal", "Lucky Man", "From The Beginning", "Hoedown", "Tiger In A Spotlight", excerpts from "Karn Evil 9" and "Tarkus", and many more. The only song I was waiting for and didn't hear was "C'est la vie". Nevertheless, I couldn't refrain from shedding my tears of emotion, and when the boys struck up "The Great Gates Of Kiev" - I simply burst into tears. It was the most wonderful concert I ever participated in. Carl Palmer was slashing his drums with a speed of a machine gun; Emerson played jumping on and lying under his organ, and plunging knives into the keyboard; and Greg Lake was great, though he had lost his velvety voice. Well, I would exchange ten KC's concerts for the ELP's one, because the latter was more powerful, dynamic, exciting and... better! Peter." Peter says, to me, more than I believe he intends. I remember KC's visit to Warsaw well: the band's arrival, the hotel, the auditorium (built by Stalin as a "gift to the Polish people"), audience and performance. 1. I note that Peter came to take, and took. 2. I am saddened that Peter fails to make the connection between his contribution to the performance, and his perception of the performance. 3. I am saddened that Peter fails to make the connection between his contribution to the performance, and the outcome of the performance. 4. PZ: "hey, Mr. Fripp, don't shoot at me, the quality is really very poor": RF: "Hey, Peter, don't give me a hard time me for stealing your sound system: the sound is really very naff." 5. I am happy that Peter has found in ELP a group to whom he can give his allegiance, and that ELP have found in Peter an allegiant; and hope that this relationship continues into the future. 6. It is unlikely that Peter need exchange even one KC concert for one of ELP. This because, firstly, my knife throwing is unlikely to improve; secondly, I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience (although Peter's foot is a fair target); thirdly, KC is not a group "that is playing only the old tunes and is not experimenting"; fourthly, it seems eminently unfair that whereas an audient can choose their performer, the performer is unable to choose their audient. I hope that language has conspired to convey the truth. Several ET contributors have written regarding KC touring plans, and the lack of recent live performance. They may find a large part of an answer in the above. V As I hit the keys of this IBM Thinkpad the sounds of "Schizoid Man" from the Amsterdam Concertgebouw smack my pearly auricles. Now "Book of Saturday". "The Talking Drum" has also recently been tweaking the small hairs of my inner ears. The improv into the "Talking Drum" riff is intriguing. David Cross twists the tuning knob (a contradiction in terms) on his mellotron over my own mellotron strings as Billy B. and JW, Bass Beast of Terror, fall into time. Strong stuff for young men a long way from home, and generation ago. David Singleton and I are working shifts late and sooner to have this little hummer biting the collective ear of Crimheads for the September 13th. DGM Playback in London. The title of the album is "The Night Watch" and the artwork is upstairs, awaiting display. The official release date is November but we intend to have it available for acquisition at the Playback. Meanwhile, terror has erupted at The Concertgebouw. I would not like to enter social interraction with the people playing this music, but would like to have seen them playing. David Singleton and I have gone back to the original 16-track tapes, which were the basis for half of the "Starless and Bible Black" album. We have discarded our original plan to release the BBC Radio broadcast, which was the source of the extensive bootlegs of that concert, following an arrangement between ourselves and Virgin. Further Discipline Archive news, in response to ET enquiries regarding the two KC videos from the 1980s: on Wednesday 9th. July, under the terms of the EG Settlement (finalised 15th. May) we collected the King Crimson video masters for "The Noise" (Frejus, 1982) and "Live In Japan" (1984) from my solicitor Richard Bray. We are planning to release these on mail order in time for Christmas. Best wishes, Robert. Guitar Craft aphorism: "There is no mistake save one - the failure to learn from a mistake". ------------------------------ From: "Chris Mitchell" Subject: doctor diamond in the cave Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:29:32 -0400 Thanks to the ETet who did the brave translation of Doctor Diamond in #406, although I have some changes: "You made the facial sigh" should be "fatal sign", no? And "I come upon the strange engine lights" should be "Station lights." As for the rest, still working on it. On another note, TLev's latest release, affectionately dubbed the CAVES cd, is worth getting for those who enjoyed World Diary. It has a similar intimacy and about five times the atmosphere. On the other hand, there was a bit more variety on W.D., so From the Caves is really one of those "be in the mood for it" albums. What strikes me is how perfect the basslines are...simple, yet very creative. And always in the pocket. chris squonk at utkux dot utcc dot utk dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: ASFSeattle at aol dot com Subject: Was Fripp "Damaged" by Sylvian? In ET405, Gordon Emory Anderson states, among other things: > I predict that someday, Fripp and Sylvian will work together again, no > matter what may have transpired between them. Can someome elaborate on this? Was there a falling out of some sort? I'm curious. I too believe their colaboration to be a truly unique and wonderful musical event having occured. I'm saddened not to have had the opportunity to see them live. Though I do have difficulty at times with DS's voice/singing style, it certainly does not take away from the fantastic performances of all the musicians involved - DS included. Suggest any doubters check out the Laser Disc to see & hear for themselve. Matt Lehman Seattle, WA ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Aesthetics; Tingles; kudos to Ted White Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:55:35 PDT Dear ET, I enjoyed the responses my queries about Fripp's aesthetics generated. In ET #406, Andy McClelland is quite correct about Plato's utilitarian approach to art--eg., the function of art is to groom ideal citizens for the Republic. There is merit in his suggestion that this utilitarian ideal is at odds with Fripp's aesthetics. I'll have to ponder that one more while I study for Andy's quiz. . . I was particularly struck by Alex Burns's comments (ET #407)on "memes," which he characterizes as "virus-like, self-replicating ideas." A fascinating and, dare I say, "infectious" notion! Thanks for the bibliography on recent aesthetic theory, too. Incidentally, the concept of memes reminds me of something the late William Burroughs once said: "Language is a virus from space." I have followed the ongoing discussion of KC "tingles" with interest, partly since I think "tingles" are related to these aesthetic ideas. Briefly, the notion is that a work of art--poem, painting, piece of music--carries a "charge" that is transmitted to the beholder. Tingles are the nervous system's response to this jolt of energy. This ties in with the "noetic apprehension" Alex mentions. Like other ETers, I have experienced the "Starless" tingles, plus similar sensations connected with the climax of "Fracture," portions of "The Sheltering Sky," and other KC compositions. I was first infected with the KC virus in 1972, when my mind was literally blown by the climax of "In the Court of the Crimson King" issuing from my radio. I must also give Ted White some credit for my infection. Back in the early 70s, when I was a regular reader of Ted's science fiction magazines (Amazing Stories and Fantastic Stories) I ran across a reference to KC in a response he gave a reader in the letter column. While I no longer own the magazine, I recall that he was discussing Jefferson Starship's "Blows Against the Empire" album as SF. Anyway, in responding to the reader, Ted made glowing reference to KC, particularly "Lizard." His comments brought the band to my attention, in effect priming me for my initial exposure to the KC virus. I have been grateful ever since. Nice to run into you again, Ted, here in ET. Best, Doug ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #408 ********************************