Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #343 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 343 Monday, 10 February 1997 Today's Topics: Responses, rebuttals, raucousities, re-articulations ... from Robert Fripp Mootlegging, boyalties and the roment. Bootlegs Soundscapes on a Budget Responsibility? No way..... In the Court of the Crimson SWING! Question for Robert Robert Fripp makes my bloody head spin. Re:What is the full story? Re: Frippery Re: data bank Which album next Tull to Fripp, and some gratitude That grandiose ET Crimso co The value of music??? McDonald and Giles getting vertigo from pictures of buildings Re: Horrbile Thought? response to Fripp's letter Crimson Covers Re: non-consensual acts Intellectual Property: To Boot or Not to Boot Joining the dots The Problems with Bootlegs Fripp King Crimson music performed live in LA on February 27 Re: [Trey Gunn and Quake Live in Japan & Great Deceiver RF letter ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk TO UNSUBCRIBE, OR TO CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ ETWEB: www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: 06 Feb 97 10:40:41 EST From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Responses, rebuttals, raucousities, re-articulations ... Discipline Global Mobile, PO Box 1533, SALISBURY, Wiltshire, SP5 5ER. (44)722 781042: fax. 73064 dot 1470 at compusserve dot com Thursday 6th. February, 1997. Dear Team, Responses, rebuttals, raucousities, re-articulations ... I Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:07:25 -0500 (EST) From: TwEbB2436 at aol dot com Subject: RF questions TwEb: I have seen bits of the Fripp-as-creep strain coursing throughout over these past months ... RF: Firstly, Fripp IS a creep. Secondly, these past several years. TwEb: For those who have had questionable run-ins with Fripp I say this: consider singular impressions. If you had just performed after months on the road, ups and downs of performances, sketchy available diet, etc.... Would you be able to always paint on a smiley and shake all the hands in want? RF: Sure. No problem: Chuckles Fripp, your Man From Dorset. TwEb: As a student of music I have found Robert Fripp a particularly accessible person. RF: Very good. My wife and I bought a house for students to come and live together in England, and practice, and perform, and find how to live and work together under the imperative of serving music. This project, at the Red Lion House, ran for three years. There was no difficulty in access. The problems were aim, commitment and effort. TwEb: ... I wouldn't mind a published treatise illustrating how to put the pieces together into music ... please Robert, more writing more writing more writing! RF: This is a good suggestion. I'm currently working on two instruction manauals: "Lighten Up! - Have Fun With Serial Analysis And Chromatic Substitution" and "Play In A Lifetime - A Guide To The New Standard Tuning". TwEb: Biographies- People are fixated on finding the person behind the works... Perhaps Fripp might authorize a real one, or better yet write one himself! RF: This is an even better suggestion. Much of the material is already available, but I haven't been able to decide on a name for the book - one which reaches out to my public and invites them in, as it were. Several under consideration are: "I Only Wanted To Say Goodbye - At Length". "I Had No Rights - Only Your Money". "I Did It Someone Else's Way". "I Only Wanted To Say `No Thank You' Very Briefly". These are definitely more fan-oriented. A more serious possible work is the influence of topography on a musician's work, maybe: "From Wimborne To Cranborne - My Life In Music". Assuming, expecting, anticipating the success of that volume, I might squeeze out a sequel: "From Cranborne To Wimborne, via Witchampton - More Life, More Music". Maybe readers have their own suggestions? "Fripp - The Movie" is clearly very close, but no presently available stars have either the right, or enough money, to get the part. Sincerely, Robert Fripp. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Feb 97 10:40:59 EST From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: from Robert Fripp Dear Team, Randall Powell's posting of November 8th. 1995 (ET 236) has recently been referred to as "infamous". It deals with Randall's "Fripp-Off" at The House of Blues in New Orleans and is a definitive "Close Encounter Of The Enthusiast Kind". In my view, it deserves closer attention than might be apparent at first glance. I Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 23:29:34 -0600 From: rpowell at mailhost dot tcs dot tulane dot edu (Randall Powell) Subject: Fripp-Off Having waited more than 20 years for my first opportunity to see King Crimson live, I was quite excited to see Fripp at the back of the House of Blues here in New Orleans. He was standing near the mixing console, drinking a cup of coffee. I politely said "Excuse me," intending to briefly tell him how much I had enjoyed Crimson over the years. Without giving me the courtesy of acknowledgment that any decent human being would exhibit, he raised his hand as if to shield his ears and face from contact with a commoner who had paid more than $100 for two shows. He then proceeded to raise his coffee cup between his two pudgy little hands with a melodramatic gesture reminiscent of taking communion, then turned with an equally affected manner to float away as if he were some god walking in our midst. I have never been so disgusted and disappointed in my life. In less than thirty seconds he managed to ruin for me all appreciation for his music. With apprehension I awaited the beginning of the show, thinking this was going to be an anticlimax of epic proportions. Fortunately, my fears were ill-founded, as it took about thirty seconds to realize that Robert Dripp has been rendered irrelevant by Adrian Belew. In fact, Fripp-Off has become a sideman in what was his own band. You may think I offer this opinion because of his inexcusably rude and arrogant behavior. In truth, I cannot totally separate my reaction from my evaluation of the performance, but I think it's more than fair to say that Adrian is behind the bulk of Thrak. I expect the shitty behavior exemplified by Fripp from poseurs such as McDonna or the Guns'n'Roses level cretins, but I suppose I didn't realize that he felt he was such a "star". So go ahead and buy all the recycled box sets and masturbatory noodlings masquerading as soundscapes, but buy Adrian's albums and those of the other wonderful musicians in the band if you have an aversion to being taken for granted. I, for one, shall never put another penny into his coffers by buying anything with his name on it. Perhaps he can reunite with the equally pompous and pretentious Eno. I would suggest "The Unending Circle Jerk of Onanism" as the title for their opus. After all, just play one tone into a tape loop and declare it a work of minimalist art. Apparently, there are a number of naive fools who will buy anything this shameless fraud will foist upon them. I know this quite well; I once was among their number. By the way, the other members of the band circulated throughout the venue and were quite friendly and approachable. Pat Mastelotto, in particular, is a most congenial and impressive individual. I spoke with him before the second show the following night. What a treat it was to watch Bruford and him playing off each other. And Levin was his usual brilliant self. II This is a rare combination of accurate observation, blindness, reaction and interpretation. This strange brew then combusts. Firstly, the major issues (aplying the devilish use of the Socratic Dialectic referred to by Rhino in ET 336 (January 27th. 1997). RP: Without giving me ... acknowledgment ... he raised his hand. RF: Robert was standing towards the back of the venue, near the mixing desk (traditionally a place of relative safety for a performer in a public area) drinking coffee. A man approaches, quite excited, and seeks to initiate an exchange. He says: "Excuse me". Robert declines to engage by using the language of gesture: He raises his hand. The gesture says: "No, thank you". This was Randall's first acknowledgement. RP: (Fripp) then proceeded to raise his coffee cup between his two ... hands with a gesture reminiscent of taking communion. RF: This is exactly, precisely what it was. Fripp is in the audience area, serving his own purposes (whatever they may be). A man approaches. He makes an overture to Fripp, which is declined. Fripp assumes (reasonably) that the man is part of the audience for the show, and that he has paid a high price for his ticket. The man seeks to engage Fripp's attention. Although this may be the right time and place for the man to approach Fripp, it is not the right time for Fripp to respond in the fashion expected / anticipated / wanted by the man. Fripp declines to engage by raising his hand. Then, to acknowledge the mutuality and commonality between audience and performer, to acknowledge our common humanity and aspirations, the cup was raised symbolising the reality of our communion. (Please see Jacob Gorny's posting for January 15th. 1997 in ET 333 for the superb clarity of his commentary on this topic). This was Randall's second acknowledgement. III Secondly, the secondary issues. RP: Having waited more than 20 years for my first opportunity to see King Crimson live, I was quite excited to see Fripp at the back of the House of Blues... I politely said "Excuse me"... RF: A polite "Excuse me" demands nothing for itself. That is, it may be declined. RP: ...intending to briefly tell him how much I had enjoyed Crimson over the years. RF: Firstly, Randall's intentions were set. He was not prepared to have his overture declined. Secondly, briefly is relative. I have no doubt that Randall's generous expression of interest in Crimson music over 20 years would have been brief, but it would have been a first (in my recall). "Excuse me" rarely means what it purports to mean. It is usually a foot in the door, a wedge into your bunch of bananas. "I only wanted to say ... " usually isn't, usually doesn't. It leads to a question. Often this question is of a factual kind, such as "What is Peter Giles / Jamie Muir doing now? Do you ever speak to them?". The promised, intended or implied sequence of overture > opening > engagement > development rarely seems to move to closure by its own initiative. But this is only Robert's experience. RP: Without giving me the courtesy of acknowledgment that any decent human being would exhibit ... RF: Randall seems to equate decency and humanity with being given the response he wanted / expected / intended, having missed the two distinct gestures of acknowledgement which he has already been offered. RP: ... a commoner who had paid more than $100 for two shows. RF: The commercial imperative again. Randall has rights because he has parted with his money in exchange for two concert tickets. My understanding is, when Randall bought the tickets he was acquiring the right to attend two shows by one of the world's finest live groups. I didn't know that by agreeing to perform with Crimson at The House of Blues I became part of an implicit or explicit agreement to get personal with members of the audience. Intimate, yes; personal, no. Professional performers do have responsibilities to their audiences. These are currently the subject of a larger debate within ET. RP: (Fripp) turned with an equally affected manner to float away as if he were some god walking in our midst. RF: Fripp acknowledged the communality of audience and performer as represented by the agencies of Randall and Robert. Perhaps to open a (brief) debate on "The Language of Gesture - An Alternative To Suffering Through A Few moments Of Sincere Compliment?" was not a valid or realistic option. Robert left, quickly. RP: In less than thirty seconds (Fripp) managed to ruin for me all appreciation for his music. RF: No. Within thirty seconds Randall's reaction, to not being given the attention he had expected, managed to ruin all Randall's appreciation of Fripp's music. RP: ... Fripp-Off has become a sideman in what was his own band. RF: No again. Firstly, King Crimson has never been my own band. Secondly, I am not a sideman in the present one. RP: You may think I offer this opinion because of his inexcusably rude and arrogant behavior. RF: Actually, yes. But Fripp's response to you is / was excusable and explicable. "Rude" and "arrogance": well, it seems I have sometimes functioned as mirror to the occasion. RP: In truth, I cannot totally separate my reaction from my evaluation of the performance. RF: Randall's observations are back on form. This is honest, honourable and precise. RP: ... but I suppose I didn't realize that (Fripp) felt he was such a "star". RF: I also answer to the name "Boppin' Bobby" and have performed in public as "The Great Roberto" (although I was only 14 and didn't choose the name myself). RP: I, for one, shall never put another penny into (Fripp's) coffers by buying anything with his name on it. RF: Firstly, Randall has no idea of how the income flows within the music industry flow, or not. Secondly, it seems unfair that audiences can choose their performers but performers have little choice in their audiences. RP: By the way, the other members of the band circulated throughout the venue and were quite friendly and approachable. RF: I should love to circulate, but I get hit on. Constantly. Repeatedly. Without courtesy, without generosity, without consideration. And occasionally with courtesy, with generosity, with consideration. And Fripp is also friendly and approachable. You simply have to find the right time, the right place and be the right person. "Right person" doesn't mean "good person" or "clever person" or "rich person" or "interesting, convivial and amusing" person. It means that this is the right person, here, now. Some 1200 people who were prepared to exert themselves to get to a Guitar Craft course are among them. Some of them had even previously made me suffer through a few moments of sincere compliment. The other members of Crimson are rightly popular, but I seem to attract a level of enthusiast who is (how shall we say?) intense. Or very, very enthusiastic? My general policy is to recommend the enthusiast develop their interest in Pat. And Trey. And Adrian. And Bill. And Tony. And then John Sinks, our guitar equipment manager. IV Words beginning with "S" this time: Short Shots ... 1. "Excuse me" doesn't always mean excuse me. 2. Briefly is relative. 3. If I don't have the freedom to say no, I don't have the freedom to say yes. And if I can't say yes, I am more likely to say no. V I hold no ill-will towards Randall. His letter is a classic of its kind and it took a lot of balls to post. Sincerely, Robert Fripp. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Feb 97 15:17:52 EST From: Michael Sheehan <103734 dot 3601 at CompuServe dot COM> Subject: Mootlegging, boyalties and the roment. I would like to begin with a bit of self-contradiction. First, I want to say how pleasant it is to have a chance to read Robert's consistently interesting and frequently amusing communiques here in ET. Next, I want to suggest to Toby that messages consisting of nothing more than words to that effect be on the "ET topic blacklist." Now on to the meat. Robert writes us on 2/5: << And now an offer: if any readers have prime boots (of KC and / or Fripp related) which make the spine tingle, or viscerally activate any other parts of their anatomy, send them to DGM World Central. << Hmmm. I'm sure this will prompt many responses. I am in agreement with Robert in regard to the intrusive and dishonest nature of cloak-and-dagger slipping-the-video-camera-into-the-coat-pocket-when-the-security-man-comes-around business amongst members of the audience. However, I would like to pose the following observations/questions to Robert in the hope he might address them. I make these assumptions: * Sometimes, the moment is worth documenting. * The document of the moment can have worth (see Robert's offer above). * Its worth might be that the moment was powerful enough when extant that even frozen in amber it can still "tingle the spine" and otherwise stimulate the listener in a meaningful, personal, valuable manner. * Its worth might be that I can sell it from the inner pocket of a dusty and evil-smelling overcoat for 20 quid which I can then spend on some combination of liquor, drugs and prostitution. * There will always be those who document the moment, for a broad spectrum of reasons along the posterity<-->profit axis. * It is possible, given modern technologies, to document the moment largely unattended and undistracted from the moment itself, if one is allowed to do so. If these assumptions can be accepted, then my questions are: -- Must one accept what is inevitable, even if it is in opposition to one's ethic? -- If one must accept the inevitable, can/should one attempt to minimize the disadvantages it presents and maximize the opportunities it offers? In the case of illegitimate recordings of Crim: the problem is many-headed. Profiteering bootleggers deny the artist his due; enthusiastic amateurs fumble about in darkness, betray the moment they are privy to, and frequently bother their neighbors; the audience for live recordings of Crimson is smallish in Big Record Executive terms but ominvorous, so both the enthusiast and the profiteer have inexpensive channels of distribution readily available to them; the illegitimate product is frequently of inferior technical quality largely due to the clandestine recording techniques involved, and so on. So the question of inevitability: some enthusiasts and profiteers will inevitably seek to record. If we accept this as inevitable (which perhaps we don't!), can we minimize the disadvantages (the profiteer's ability to profit and the nuisance of the clandestine taper) and maximize the opportunities (further inexpensive distribution of Crimsonic music amongst the faithful)? I believe it is possible. One way is to do what Robert and company are already doing, and what Grateful Dead archivist Dick Latvala (perhaps the GD's David Singleton analogue) has been doing for several years now: releasing best-possible archival recordings on a regular basis. I've no interest in spearheading another tiresome and utterly worthless debate on the musical worth of the Grateful Dead, but they saw the inevitability of recording early on and decided to allow people to record. Eventually so many audio enthusiasts began to do so that recording was limited to a special section behind the sound board, to minimize inconvenience to the non-taping concertgoers. The results: the documentation of virtually every concert performed by the band, sometimes of dodgy quality, sometimes pristine; some moments of value, others execrable; the minimizing of bootleg sales, a primary motivator in the archival release program as well, which focuses on hard-to-find recordings generally available only on costly bootlegs; the virtual eradication of bothersome clandestine taping and the implicit overall improvement of sound quality in the amateur efforts. Worth noting is the upswing in bootleg sales following Jerry Garcia's demise (and the elimination of further amateur recording of his music). Anecdotal evidence suggests that such a program, based on a sense of trust and community (very much in evidence in the Crimson audience. I believe), ultimately profits the band; consider Blues Traveler, Dave Matthews, and even Metallica. Betrayal is always a possibility: but betrayal is where we are now. I remember from Robert's oft-misquoted Musician article his response to such an approach, which was, I think, that it was "not for [him]." I greatly enjoyed reading his recent comments on the matter, but I would be very interested in reading his objections to establishing a taping scheme in greater depth, if he has time and inclination to reflect on them. As a final question, Robert mentioned a DGM mailing list newsletter. Will an electronic version be posted for the enjoyment of us PossProd consumers? As always, thanks to Toby, Robert and everyone who keeps this digest so interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:42:11 -0500 From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith) Subject: Bootlegs Hello ET - I'm responding to Robert's post regarding bootlegs. I admit to having bought a number of these just because my appetite for new Crimson material far outstrips what's available on the legitimate market, and certainly outstrips what any commercial recording company would be willing to issue even if Fripp were a willing participant. And yes, Robert, I'm quite well aware of your published views on bootlegs, and I do feel an acute sense of discomfort in buying them given those views. But having not been around during the earlier incarnations of the band, the option of hot dates with any of those earlier bands is not possible; hence my purchase of what seems to amount to cheap pornography in your view. But certainly you wouldn't want to deny those of us who are chronologically challenged the pleasure of knowing what a hot date with an older Crimson might have been like, even once removed? "The Great Deceiver" box was a great start. However, I do think there's even more of a solution available, and your plans for the "Epitaph" set point the way. At one point I was part of the Web, the Marillion fan club, and one of the most popular things they did was their fan-club-only Racket Records label, which presented live material, warts and all, in nice packaging and with proper annotation. These were typically limited to 1500 copies to keep Marillion's then-label EMI happy that there was no real competition for the Marillion commercial catalog, and the discs were eagerly gobbled up by fans no matter what they sounded like. My point is that there is a core of fans willing to buy far more than you've previously made available; therefore in theory you could quite easily issue a great deal of the material you've archived over the years in small and limited editions with out incurring any expenses above and beyond art, production, and presumably in your case paying the musicians. Granted this might be a naive notion but it seems to be a feasible one. Fans such as myself would happily pay for this material; obviously we've paid someone else for it at various times in the past. And in Marillion's case they even sold the stuff for well more than typical retail; seems like they charged $25 a disc. Frank Zappa's "Beat the Boots" series was another approach, one which did very little other than replacing the actual bootlegs with less expensive legally available copies. But this strikes me as less than desirable... I'd rather know who actually played on a date than to see Jamie Muir's name listed yet again erroneously. If I might finish with a request, I've always longed for a release of the complete Concertgebouw show of November 23, 1973, and I mean complete, including the stuff that eventually ended up on "Starless and Bible Black" but restored to original context. This seems to have been a transcendent show, judging both from the "Starless" tracks and the many, many boots that resulted from the BBC / King Biscuit broadcasts. To have that show intact would be marvelous while simultaneously rendering a number of the currently available boots useless. In closing, I'm glad to have you here, Robert. I've always found your writings a delight to read, and your postings have proven to be no exception. I look forward to your further thoughts on this issue. Steve Smith ssmith at knittingfactory dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:48:05 -0600 (CST) From: David Cline Subject: Soundscapes on a Budget Fellow ETer's, Being a musician (semi-pro) and an professor (education) I spend most of my time with little extra disposable income, but I have a desire to experiment with tape loops / delays / etc. While I cannot afford two Revox units or two TC Electronics delays, I have one good quality digital delay. I have tried working with two cassette decks with the delay in line between them in the manner outlined in Eno's Discreet Music album. In theory I think this should work, but I have yet to have any success. I am getting loud hums which I suspect are from impedence mismatches, but I am not sure. Can anyone give me information about this set up or point me in the right direction to solve my problems? I have been a longtime King Crimson fan, but I have always been thrilled more by the solo/duo Robert Fripp output. The Soundscapes concept touches something in me that I must explore - but on a budget. Any help is appreciated at cline at mhd1 dot moorhead dot msus dot edu or at daknave at rrnet dot dot com Thank you in advance. Dave Dr. David Cline Asst. Professor Moorhead State University Moorhead, Minnesota 56560 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:46:15 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Responsibility? No way..... Fripp said.... >This is my position: I hold commentators responsible for their >comments where they touch upon matters of my direct interest, involvement >and experience. Where the comments are nasty, unkind and deliberately >rude, nominally based on fact or reasoned conclusion, I may respond >directly and ask the commentator to address their seeming logic. NOOOOOOO! We say that we want your ear via this forum, but let's face it: the truth of the matter is that we love to backseat comment on the lives of celebrities. Perhaps the tales in polytheistic times of the capriciousness of the gods has been internalized, and re-projected back out onto our new pantheon (remember those "We are the world" videos?). It is said that the perception of a celebrity takes place in a totally different part of the brain than perception of that actual person in regular social circumstances. So Mr Fripp: please return to the lurking shadows of our imagination, where we are free to say what we feel. Where we can, in retrospect, mainpulate your image to whatever we like. Of course, please continue to generate amusing stories so that we can comment and guffaw. We are a people that demand constant entertainment! I'll play these pipes, now dance! Why are you not smiling? Now smile! Lift those arms! Dance faster, dammit! -Emory. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:14:50 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin Subject: In the Court of the Crimson SWING! In the past, there's been several discussions about various artists' covers of King Crimson songs. Tonight when I was hanging out at my friend Chris' shop he pulled out a rather worn old LP that someone had traded in called "Doc Sevrenson's Closet" which featured Doc an his big band doing tunes by The Beach Boys, a Beatles medley and a 7+ minute rendition of "In the Court of the Crimson King." Sections of the arrangement vary style-wise from slow mournful sax interludes that sound like they were culled from the soundtrack to a classic Raymond Chandler private eye flick to some pretty funky wah-wah'ed rhythm guitar bits. I think I might have even heard a bit of the "James Bond" theme in there at one point. If you ever spot this little gem, you must pick it up. It's swinging daddy-o. -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti ------------------------------ From: Dave_Depper at bendnet dot com (Dave Depper) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:11:38 -0800 Subject: Question for Robert Organization: http://www.bendnet.com This is not related to the discussions that you have been participating in lately, but as someone who is interested in the direction of music, I have been dying (not literally, Fripp the Pedant) to ask you this: What is your point of view on electronic music as being the future of music (I hope that made sense)? Lately it seems as if all of the creative energy ever contained in rock has been completely used up (save for a few worthy bands... I won't name names). I have noticed that electronic music (techno/ambient) has the ability to far surpass other genres in its ability to put the artist's thoughts into musical form, and the possibilities are far greater with the equipment. You've worked with the Orb and the Future Sound of London, and you do your own electronic-style music with soundscapes. Any comments? I would be grateful. Sincerely, Dave Depper, KC audient. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 19:25:29 EDT From: "Pooh Head Bucket?" Subject: Robert Fripp makes my bloody head spin. (Weekly World News headline: "Robert Fripp was NICE to me!") A few years ago, I attended a Soundscapes show at the World Trade Center in NYC. The music was wonderful, like velvet sheets of sound, and caused me to have one of these "connections" we've all been blubbering about (read:near emotional breakdown. Yes, from music.) After the show proper, an autograph session at an adjoining bookstore took place. RF cordially signed my (then) shiny new copy of "LoCG - A Show of Hands" and put up with me gushing about how amazing it was to meet him. (get ready) Then I went home. Appropriate time and place, blah blah blah, I WANTED Robert Fripp to like me. I'm sure this colored my experience. Perhaps he turned to Trey Gunn the second I walked away and hastily procured a wagging middle finger at me; I'll never know. I wouldn't have wanted/don't want to know. (two fingers for a Brit?) This is a huge consideration, and had it not been articulated by our Mr. Fripp I wouldn't have pondered it (too busy scraping up money to purchase Epitaph). Anyone with an even partially developed sense of time and place would know not to bother a person while supping, taking in a show, the context is not important. >This< aspect of our recent dialog puzzles me. *-------------------------------- A suggestion: volunteers to collate a data bank of information on various topics. Then, if anyone is in doubt about the repercussions of confronting a judge resulting from one's inability to tell the age of young people and a love of confectionary, just scroll through to "Lyrics: Easy Money / Variant I(b)ii". The collected Gig Reviews form an impressive body of direct criticism / commentary on KC (and its enthusiasts) in action. *---------------------------------- Well, why bother collecting information when the chief conspirator is online and reading AND obviously loves being bombarded with questions about lyrics?! Hell, let's just ask Adrian. "It's his band now, anyway." Finally, I'd like to add that as difficult as it may seem to create an "active listening" environment at a performance, an "active typing" situation out here in Cyberspace won't happen anytime soon. We (at least I) am extremely appreciative that Mr. Fripp cares (yup. cares) enough about us to take part in this. His insights can only push me towards a better understanding of the music I hold so dearly. Unfortunately, Mr Fripp, most of us are full of shit. Feel free to ignore us. Tom Soriano Tom Soriano * sorianot at alpha dot montclair dot edu ------------------------------------------ "It's a typical day on the road to Utopia" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:55:59 +0500 From: Thomas Bail Subject: Re:What is the full story? Hey all, This may be old news. If so, could someone point me in the right direction to get the full story. Ran across an excerpt on a WWW page dealing with Robert Fripp. The excerpt was taken from the tour programme for "The Road to Graceland" tour with Sylvian, written in '93. From reading it, it gives a brief overview of RF's work and his association with David Sylvian. I found several writings that left me wondering. At one point it discusses the albums released be the RF/AB/BB/TL line-up. It mentions ET and ToaPP but fails to mention Beat. Why? My curiosity is most bent on finding the story to this one. The article mentions the fact that RF"...has re-formed King Crimson. This new incarnation features Fripp, Belew, Levin, Jerry Marotta, and Trey Gunn..." What happened to Mr. Marotta and how did BB&PM get into the picture? Not that it was a bad thing, just curious. The address for the article is: http://www.io.tudelft.nl/~keesjan/music/sylvian/others/fripp.html Any help is appreciated, Tom Bail Graduate Student, Ordinaire ------------------------------ From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:40:09 -0800 Subject: Re: Frippery Robert: many thanks for your recent postings. You make me laugh. First, in your claim that you are in fact the greatest guitarist in the world (guffaws, but friendly), and second, that you watch Steven Segal movies with your sister. Excellent! Love those action flicks. Keep up the postings, brighten my day. -- John ------------------------------ From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:41:51 -0800 Subject: Re: data bank Robert Fripp wrote: > > A suggestion: volunteers to collate a data bank of information on >various topics. Then, if anyone is in doubt about the repercussions of >confronting a judge resulting from one's inability to tell the age of young >people and a love of confectionary, just scroll through to "Lyrics: Easy >Money / Variant I(b)ii". Isn't this what the Answers to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) document purports to address? Methinks more work is needed on the FAQ, but I'm not the man to do it. The discography is enough. -- John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:01:52 GMT From: Nick Subject: Which album next cp wanted to know which album to buy next after ITCOTCK. There can be only one answer: Larks' Tongues in Aspic. ...er.. or Starless and Bible Black; or Red. No, Islands. Oh bugger --Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:03:57 -0800 From: Rob MacCoun Subject: Tull to Fripp, and some gratitude Unless Toby has decided to snip this Tull thread, let me offer a tasty linkage: Any Tull to Fairport link, to Richard Thompson, to Fred Frith (also gets you to Captain Beefheart and everyone Henry Kaiser's ever collaborated with on 5 continents), to Eno ("Music for Films") to Fripp. The recent discussion of artist and audience has been one of the most interesting developments I've yet encountered in a decade of internet life. Mr. Fripp's participation falls well outside any implied contract of recording artist obligations I'd have conceived of; it feels more like a gift than a commercial transaction. So thank you to Robert, Toby, and many thoughtful participants. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1997 21:49:09 U From: "Matthew" Subject: That grandiose ET Crimso co Hello ET. I don't remember who posted that idea of having all the ETers who are so inclined record a Crimson cover album. Whoever it was, it's a _really_ good idea. However: The most recent post regarding this project (from "Mr Neurotica") was kind of askew, at least in terms of what I think most other people were thinking about it. He proposed we record *one song* using MIDI and have a bunch of people do MIDI overdubs until it had made its way around to all the people who wanted to do it. This is a terrible idea for several reasons: 1) MIDI?!? Why in God's name would ANYONE want to make any piece of music based primarily on MIDI? The digiInterface still has a long way to go... 2) A lot of people can't use MIDI. A lot of people who would probably be very beneficial to the album. 3) A lot of instruments cannot be MIDI-ized very easily. A Mellotron, for instance... 4) The whole "one-song" concept is not a good idea, either. This would either end up as a very heavily-mixed recording, or an extremely over-orchestrated one, or both. Worse yet, we would run into many problems with what song to do... So, here's what we should do. ET readers, start picking your songs. I am willing to assemble and produce this, if the guy who thought of this doesn't want to. As far as I see it, this will be an _album_ of Crimson covers with each group covering a different song. It can be as similar or dissimilar from the original recording as you want. Thoughts/comments/opinions/flames should be mailed to: clockwork_orange at hotmail dot com or matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us NOT matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us (note the "1") If anybody has a problem with me doing this, or you are the person whose idea this was, get ahold of me, or just say so in the list. Yers, Matthieu *** matthieu (matthew at wra dot k12 dot oh dot us) "The only difference between a sknitz and a brakkn is, well... Quite a lot, really." -TomJ *** ------------------------------ From: "Mark Fenkner" Subject: The value of music??? Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:47:35 -0500 "Love songs are the biggest cause of mental illness" (or something like that) For the past two years I have often wondered what was the true value in music, and if there was value in music, if I could benefit from it. In our society, this seems like a question rarely pondered. Everyone takes it for granted that music is something that brings us pleasure, stimulates our emotions, often saves us from boredom, acts as the soundtrack for our life, and is almost always good for us. The only common exception to this rule are the statements made by the people and organizations that favor the censorship of music because they feel that certain types of music can have an ill effect on young people. It is obvious to me that music advocating violence, hatred, drugs, and aggression certainly has an detrimental effect on its listeners, but what about other types of music? Frank Zappa said that the greatest cause of mental illness was love songs. I would tend to agree with this statement in many ways, and when more closely examined, I would believe that almost all music shares similar effects. I arrived at these thoughts through noticing tendencies in myself. I noticed that when I listened to music, if the music were of an emotional nature my body would 'manufacture' sympathetic emotions to the music. If I was already feeling a certain emotion, I would play songs that heightened the emotion that I was experiencing. Often these emotions were sad or melancholy and the state that I would put myself in was certainly not very beneficial to myself. Sometimes I would go even further than just sympathizing with the music; I would create stories in my mind to go along with the words. I would shape the meaning of the song's lyrics to match current fantasies or situations in my life, imagining all sorts of crazy things. The other tendency that I often found in myself occurred when I listened to music of a more technical nature. I often found myself talking or thinking about the technical aspects of the music or the performer whenever I was listening to this type of music. I would chatter to my friends about how Bill Brufford was such a witty drummer for playing in 7/8 over top of a 4/4 rhythm, etc. Or when the guitar solo came, I would be thinking about how fast Robert's fingers were rather than hear the music. Needless to say, this always stole the spirit from the music. All of these problems became amplified when I became a 'musician' (this sorta reminds me of the statement "opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one"). Not only was I singing those sad song after my girlfriend broke up with me, but I was also imagining that I was playing for a crowd of people that adored me and thought me tragic. And I became even more out of touch with 'technical' music as I now listened even more to the means rather than the end. All this is not to say that I never felt the moment when all else disappears but you and the music. I often felt this (though sadly often on drugs) and this is what deepened my vice of music. In the end, I even began to question the value of this. Now, I only occasionally buy CDs for the sake of collecting (Fripp's mostly), and I almost never listen to the hundreds that I own. It has been a slow development but as I consider the value of music more and more, it seems that listening to music is quite pointless and probably detrimental. To all of the people on this list that still are avid music enthusiasts, what is the value of music to you? Does it serve any constructive function in our lives? Or, similar to what Mr. Fripp said in the Guitar Craft column of Guitar Player magazine, is it only the toilet used by our emotions? Currently, it seems no better to me than masturbation. And how could a logical man like Mr. Fripp take part in this? Sorry, I had to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:58:44 -0500 (EST) From: Carl Didur Subject: McDonald and Giles I have the 1971(?) release "McDonald and Giles", by Ian Mcdonald, Mike Giles and Peter Giles. I don't have the original pakaging for this recording and would appreciate it if someone could tell me who sings lead vocals. I really enjoy this recording, especially side two- "Birdman", I believe. Its lighter, less orchestrated sound, comes across amazingly well, reminding me heavily of I Talk to the Wind. It's one of my all time favourite albums and I can't find it anywhere! If anyone out there can tell me I bit more about it I'd be grateful. Post to the list or e-mail me at ab503 at freenet dot hamilton dot on dot ca Thanks, Carl Didur ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: A tree is best measured when it is cut down Subject: getting vertigo from pictures of buildings This newsletter is so strange. The whole concept of talking about music is strange. It's easy to discuss technical issues (i.e. what kind of effects do you think Rock Guitarist X uses when he does that gorgeous solo in "Crow's Face In Butter" etc...) It's like discussing the grammar in a poem. All forms of art (whatever that is), in my opinion, point to a Great Something that cannot be expressed or conveyed without either A) the direct first-hand experience of said Great Something, or B) an alternative, more visceral means of communicating (art). The best conversations i have had regarding music revolve around directly experiencing the piece with someone and feeling that everyone is there, in the present. Feeling the omnipotent IT. No discussion. Just presence. I'm not suggesting anything here. I just thought that the obvious needed to be stated. end of transmission, richard. "I'm not a drowning man... I'm not a burning building... I'm a TUMBLER." -- David Byrne ------------------------------ From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: Horrbile Thought? Date: Fri, 07 Feb 97 11:01:00 PST >The Talking Drum could very easily be re-mixed into an 'ambient dance' hit! >Elephant Talk could undergo similar treatment. In fact (a sad fact) the >bass line alone could form the basis of a chart-topping 'dance' track, with >a few sequenced midi overdubs and a couple of samples from the original >incessantly repeated over the top. This isn't a foreign concept in the least. The "dance" band Opus III have already covered Crimson's "I Talk To The Wind" (while I do not like this kind of dance music, I will give them credit for having at least some good taste) Though not dance, the band Primus is heavily influenced by Discipline-era Crimson. The song "Jerry Was A Racecar Driver" is obviously influenced and sounds very similar to "Elephant Talk". It was the song that gained Primus' "stardom" in the alternative scene. So, yes, I definitely agree that there is some degree of "chart-topping" characteristics to KC's music, but as always, the mainstream doesn't recognize it until it's long gone. Just another sign that KC is consistently far ahead of it's time. Matt Walsh mattw at smginc dot com Currently annoying co-workers with: Machines Of Loving Grace - "Gilt" ------------------------------ From: be82842%binghamton dot edu at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:37:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: response to Fripp's letter When I first started reading Fripp's postings in ET, I thought it was the coolest thing to here from Fripp himselfl. But as he posted more and more, my feelings changed to those of uncomfortability. In the last issue, Fripp dominated the forum, causing me to think, "wow, this is bizarre". After thinking this, however, I realized that Fripp also must feel that his infiltration of ET is slightly on the bizarre side, and it got me thinking about exactly why Fripp is posting to the extent that he is. Is it because he has too much free time? Is it because he feels the need, as he says, to steer the content of ET to a more intelligent level? I don't think this is the case. Fripp's main issue (and rightly so) seems to be with the disrespect people show him and the undue burden the put on him by essentially forcing him to be friendly and open, even if the situation calls for him to be otherwise. One of the main reasons that this burden is placed on Fripp is because he is a celebrity, a famous person, a "rock star", and as such, he is seperate and distinct -- even above -- us ordinary fans. This seperation, and the familiarity which comes along with celebrity, is what causes people to feel that they have the right to approach Fripp -- after all, what greater thing to do then to meet your hero, or for that matter any celebrity? Few things compare to the rush that comes with having brushes with fame. Fripp, IMO, is, by posting in ET, trying to bridge the gap between his fans and the celebrity which he posseses, and in the process, make himself more human. By accomplishing this, he hopes to alleviate some of the intrusions that he faces because of his celebrity. This seperation between peon and star, however, is one of the most intruiging aspects of the relationship between performer and audience. The distance between them creates excitement, wonder, imagination, awe, respect and the placing of the artist on a pedestal which I know I personally enjoy. In a way, Fripp, by alleviating this gap, is destroying an integral part of the audience/performer relationship -- namely the mystery that surrounds them. I ran into Fripp backstage at Town Hall in NYC in June of '95 after having snuck in through open doors. He was busy arguing with someone (in the interest of privacy, I won't divulge what it was about) and he was looking VERY agitated. I chose, however, to interupt him with an "excuse me, Mr. Fripp". I got back an equally rude "exuse ME". But this is exactly what I deserved, and, frankly, I was happy to receive it. Not only did Fripp respond to what was clearly a rude, intrusive comment on my part, but he kept up the distance bewteen artist and audient, and kept the myth of the "rock star" alive in my mind. And what do we have, if not for myths and perceptions which feed the imagination? Anyway, if Fripp chooses to respond, he can e-mail me privately, because I know I would not want my conversations read by an ananymous public. Sincerely, Lev Kalman-Blustein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:44:21 -0500 (EST) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Crimson Covers "I Only Paint What I See..." wrote: >(Imagine my dismay if KC were to release an album of cover tunes... >I would be dumbfounded. A veritable deer in the headlights.) Now I think this is a fine idea. It wouldn't have to be considered a "real" King Crimson album, but since the Crims have been so generous in recent years with "supplemental" releases (live albums and videos, archival releases, EPs, etc.), this could be another release in that vein. To start the ball rolling, I'd like to hear Crimson's arrangements of: "Give Up The Funk (Tear The Roof Off The Sucker)" by Parliament "I Am The Walrus"--or virtually anything else--by the Beatles "Frownland" by Captain Beefheart I foresee many other ETers chiming in with their own suggestions for Crimson Covers...at least until Toby gets sick of it and outlaws the topic. your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:03:41 -0500 From: elizabeth west Subject: Re: non-consensual acts Violation. Interruption, especially in terms of music and the experience of opening yourself to the moment. Anything that we are capible or recording via electronic means or tape or even memory are just shells of the real experience. It's like cutting off your hand and still being able to feel it there, only it's gone. Otherwise, we would be satisfied with all of the materiel that Fripp has already released, and not beg him to release old KC video footage or Official bootlegs, and just let him be Fripp. I have only been reading ET regularly for the past 3 months. I have read many assumptions about Mr. Fripp that I would never make about anyone, much less a person that I greatly admired, pointing to greed and selfishness, based upon the fact that he hasn't released your favorite live performance as an official bootleg and tells you not to buy bootlegs because it is something that he strongly disagrees with, or because he won't talk to you or sign his autograph on your arm so you can have it tatooed. I have been a musician my whole life, even before I even picked up an instrument. It took me a long time to figure out what instrument was right for me-18 years. I experimented in different art forms, painting, writing, etc. but there was always something holding me back, something that didn't feel right. Now that I found my channel, so to speak, I am limited by carpal tunnel syndrome, caused by something totally unrelated to playing guitar. I have recorded very little of my music because it ooses a great deal by even being recorded. I have only played 4 gigs in my entire "career" one of which was for a college radio station- a live performance late in the afternoon during the summer when no one was even there. Me and my husband were playing music with a poet friend of ours. It was amazing! We found that spot where time stops. The radio station recorded the show and it was horrible. I was out of tune by the second piece. I can't even listen to it at all. I tried once and thought "My God! What did we do?!? This is horrible!' I still have this tape and think that I will have it for a long time. Now that my physical limitation dictates how long and how hard I practice I am in no shape to record any of my music. My husband kindly offered to learn all of my parts and record them for me. I can't let him do this. This is the person in the universe who is closest to me and knows me the best but it is not me. This would be a violation, even though his intentions are of the highest thinking. I have no objection to him just playing my material. When we see KC in concert Robert is playing guitar/devices, Adrian is playing guitar and singing, Trey is playing Warr guitar, Tony is playing Stick or bass, Bill and Pat are playing precussion. When we record a bootleg of KC the machine that the performance was recorded on and the machine that you are listening to the performance on are doing all of these things, not KC. When we buy an KC album it is a performance played exactly for the purpose of recording it. It is a love letter, a phone call, a thank you note, the light we recieve from the stars which are light years away. It is a moment recorded by KC saying "Here we are, at this time, which is when we are recording this for you to hear." and seeing them live is definitely a hot date. If you are going to record all of your hot dates all you end up with is a good pornography collection(Rude books!....With rude pictures....). As far as Fripp's aim...I always took that to be that Fripp was striving to be Fripp, to do all of the things that Fripp needed to do to be Fripp, against anything else that might get in his way. Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:55:59 +0000 From: smatthew at gmu dot edu (Scott @ IHS) Subject: Intellectual Property: To Boot or Not to Boot R.F. invited discussion regarding bootlegging and non-consensual acts in the last edition of E.T. Bootleg recording, treated as a specific act, seems to me rather straightforward: while you own the recorder and the medium onto which you are recording the performance, you have generally given up your right to use such equipment with the purchase of a ticket, as most ticketing agencies in the US, Canada, and the UK have specific language prohibiting audio or video recordings. In an instance when this waiver of rights has not been conveyed, either through specific language, or through a commonly accepted implicit agreement, I personally think anyone should be allowed to make a recording. It is perhaps poor etiquette to go around taping conversations, but it is a tough case to make that your right to use your own real property is limited by another's right to avoid having a product of intellect and expression captured and reproduced. I don't pretend to know the "absolute truth" with respect to this, as there is a decided split even among those who are in 100% agreement regarding rights in real property. Personally, though, I don't see the problem. If someone records a King Crimson concert and claims that they had the consent of the band, that they ARE the band (!!!) and wrote the songs being played themselves, or that they are agents acting on behalf of the band, then they are engaging in a fraudulent transaction. Perhaps with DAT recordings there is more of a concern that bootlegs can equal official recordings in quality, and therefore pose a threat to the artist, but I still contend that the product officially sanctioned by the artist will not only carry a higher value among fans, it can almost certainly be made of higher quality than knockoffs, and new material will be available for release only by the artist. Bootlegs must be named differently, otherwise their creators are guilty of fraud by imperson- ation, therefore contract law provides the private check that state power currently grants in the form of copyright. Again, I must add that any waiver of rights to engage in recording of any kind should be respected under the law, and that if violators attempt to profit off of their ill-gotten recordings, they should be held liable under standard tort law, and their proceeds and any penalties should be transferred to the artist whose rights in contract where violated. Additionally, I must add that generally, the market for bootleg recordings consists of two groups: die-hard fans, who have purchased all official recordings, but whose lust cannot be satiated by the few albums available in stores, are the first main group; the second consists of residents of nations which are poor, economically unstable, or subject to severe import laws and outrageous tariffs - people whose ability to purchase legitimate recordings has either been eliminated by the state, or whose economic situation prevents purchase of luxury items altogether. The desires of the first groups could be met by releasing more official recordings, but it is unlikely that the target group would be large enough for the artist to turn a profit, therefore the only two viable solutions are to prevent the sale of such items, or to allow it by those who feel they can do it profitably. The desires of the second group cannot be met, and the choice remains to either actively prevent them from obtaining illegal recordings, or to allow the black-market distribution of the recordings in order to further the reknown of the artist and the works being distributed. Those who acquire illegal recordings without first having exhausted most, if not all, of the available official recordings, yet have sufficient purchasing power and freedom of action to do so, are most a miniscule minority. Of course this all goes out the window if you believe that intellectual "property rights" should be protected in the same manner as real property, but it's my contribution, and perhaps a starting point. Cheers, Scott ************************************************* *Scott L. Matthews # # # ### * *Program Coordinator # # # # * *Institute for Humane Studies # ##### # * * at George Mason University # # # # * *4084 University Dr., Suite 101 # # # ### * *Fairfax, VA 22030 ----------------* *Ph: (703) 934-6920 smatthew at gmu dot edu* *Fax:(703) 352-7535 * *IHS home page: http://osf1.gmu.edu/~ihs/ * ************************************************* ------------------------------ From: ToddM at LaserMaster dot Com Organization: LaserMaster Corporation Date: 7 Feb 1997 11:55:41CST6CDT Subject: (none) Fripp asks some rather interesting questions, and I will answer them shortly in a separate e-mail. Something occurred to me today: Fripp has indicated in interviews that when he started he was tone deaf and fairly wretched. At one point in the past, he has indicated that there was a certain point where he knew he was going to be a professional musician, if I'm not mistaken he even has it down to the date. This point of seeing must have been a revelation: I can see the spirit of music sitting down, saying "Oh, I have some ideas to impart to you and I know you can pick up on them but you'd better practice if you want to try and execute them." King Crimson has been described as "A Man With an Aim." So, how does one go from a wretched, tone-deaf guitarist to someone of Fripp's stature on the instrument? It's boring to say "practice" but the motivation of seeing the possibilities must have been so strong that he was motivated to get good, and get good quickly. Guitar lessons from someone who could play (didn't the same tutor teach Andy Summers as well?) didn't hurt either. "A Man With An Aim" indeed. I guess we cannot underestimate the power of music one iota. I know the feeling of hearing something that is true and it has a strong, undeniable power that grips me to this day. I distinctly remember when I was three or four years old being force fed Segovia by my parents console phonograph and listening to this sort of thing over and over. I soon had my own musical tastes but it took much longer to see that I could indeed do this. My own point of seeing was actually based on pig-headed stubbornness: I felt that if one person can play an instrument that way [referring to someone like Allan Holdsworth, I believe], I can too with the right amount of practice and carefully driven, motivated study. This occurred in 1983, right around the time I'd actually been playing guitar for four or five years and started taking it much more seriously. The third revelation was that while I knew I could undertake music as a profession, it was altogether too special for me to subject it to the pitfalls of mass public scrutiny. For some reason, worldwide acceptance of the odd type of music I'm compelled to write doesn't seem very likely. Also, Fripp's recounting of public meetings seen from two angles shows very well the pitfalls of show business life. While I'd love to make music my number one priority, it doesn't pay the bills. Rather, my day job does allow me to afford the equipment I need to make the music I must. I believe that some people have more than one revelation: o the initial revelation of the power of what music can do. o the second revelation that it is something that you are able to do. o the third revelation is the calling that it be the sum of your professional life. Why is one compelled to write or play music? Why is one compelled to write or play certain types of music? Does a certain type of music facilitate their aim better than others? What is the differentation of the music lover who does not play and the musician who both plays and listens to music? Some thoughts. Todd Madson PressMate Product Specialist LaserMaster Big Color Technical Support Corporate Web Site: http://www.lasermaster.com/ LaserMaster BBS: (612) TEK-LINE OTIS Faxback Service: (612) 943-3737 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:52:46 +0000 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Joining the dots [Repost - did this one get lost in cyberspace?] Back in about 1980, Nicky Horne on London's Capital Radio had a weekly feature called (I think) "Six of the Best". The idea was for listeners to send in a playlist of six tracks, each one linked to the next in an interesting but obscure way. The sixth track had to link back to the first. I spent many happy hours thinking up King Crimson loops, but never sent one in. I wonder if anyone ever did? These thought were drifting through my mind (prompted, of course, by recent ET postings) as I was on a six hour drive home. The tape playing was John McLaughlin's "Shakti". So of course, I tried to link it back to KC. Easy. Violinist on Shakti is Shankar. Shankar's (first?) solo album "Touch Me There" was produced by Frank Zappa, who also guests on the opening track (Bad Girls of London). One-time guitar/vocalist with Frank Zappa was Adrian Belew. Last time I checked AB is with King Crimson (you knew that, right?). I was feeling all smug at "joining the dots" so swiftly. Then the tape ended, and I pressed the CD button. First disc to come on (at random) was Tony Levin's World Diary. First track... featuring Shankar! Smart- arse CD player managed a far shorter link than my own efforts! (And before anyone reminds me of who the drummer is on Exposure... yes, I know there are other ways of linking McLaughlin to KC). And another thought.... Does anyone else have this niggling feeling that Adrian and Robert are engaged in some sort of competition via ET? Perhaps trying to see who can cause the largest amount of pretentious twaddle to be posted? And are are Bill, Tony, Trey and Pat going to join the game? Perhaps not. (N.B. I'm not knocking it... I'm thoroughly enjoying the Adrian and Robert show. I'd just like to be a fly on the wall when they next get together. "Hey, did you see the response I got on ET?") Regards, Russell Whitworth p.s. I just have to say "fudge". There, I said it. ------------------------------ Subject: The Problems with Bootlegs Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 13:24:16 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" After reading Robert Fripp's recent posting regarding bootlegs, I came up with the following musings: As I understand it, RF is opposed to bootlegs (at least partially opposed) because they often spoil the nature of the performance, puncturing the energy field which can created in a performance situation. I am not taking issue with this. My experience is that this is true. However, I think (and RF may agree with this), that some performances have such an energy, that they can still fly with some ice on the wings. It may be that the performance, at that moment for those present, would have been even more powerful had it not been taped. However, then we have the Great Deceiver box. These are some of my favorite KC recordings. The version of "Starless" on the green disk (I think it's the green one) is one of my favorite moments of recorded music. I still get goosebumps listening to it. Had DGM not released it, I would have only been able to obtain it through a bootleg. It occurs to me--if this was sitting in the vaults all this time, there's probably more stuff out there of similiar quality. I want all the great recorded moments that are available. To pause for a moment, I suspect that RF has a large stock of KC live recordings, made by the KC crew for his personal reference. I think it's safe to say that RF has the single largest collection of KC live recordings in the world. Sometime last year, DGM delcared a "bootleg amnesty", calling for anyone in possession of a good live recording of the first KC lineup to send the recording to DGM. I suppose that some of the material which will appear on "Epitaph" is from bootleg sources. Earlier this week, RF called again for exciting KC bootlegs to be submitted to DGM. I'm guessing that this is an attempt to gather more material for subsequent official live releases. Wonderful! I'm up for all of it, despite poor recording quality. I'm even happy with plain packaging--the dates, set list, running times, band members, that's all I really need. Anything more is gravy, and if DGM wants to keep costs down by using simpler packaging, that's fine with me. However, the call for bootlegs and release of "Epitaph" suggest a few questions, from my viewpoint. If bootlegging is to be avoided, so that the live moment is not harmed, then bootlegs should be discouraged. If, after a few years, there's a call for bootlegs, and everyone had observed RF's request, there would be no recordings to be had. Imagine if the source tapes for "Great Deceiver" were bootleg tapes--KC enthusiasts would be out of luck. Perhaps "Epitaph" would be a much shorter release, perhaps of poorer quality. Having seen two calls for bootlegs, I expect to see further calls ten years down the road. This feeds the "I'm documenting the band out of my love for the music, besides I know Robert'll want the tapes down the road and then everyone's happy!" school of taping. Imagine this: a bootleg tape of Beethoven playing some of his own music is found. Beethoven's heirs gain possession of the tape and declare that they will not make it available for public consumption. There'd be all sorts of editorials about how "the music belonged to everyone", scholars would be up in arms about being denied access to the tape, and so on. Now, I don't think it matters whether you think KC and Beethoven are equivalent in terms of musical worth, or greatness, or whatever you want to call it, the question is can music be "owned"? In the truest sense, I don't think that _music_ can be owned by anyone, but _recordings_ are a different matter. If you grant Beethoven the right to control his _recordings_, you have to grant KC the same right, and vice versa. So, DGM puts out bootlegs that they've selected, cleaned up as best they can, packaged nicely. Are we encouraging bootlegs by purchasing the official releases? The existance of the version of "Starless" on the aforementioned GD disk makes me very hungry for more stuff, and I'm willing to wade through a lot of material of differing quality to find it. DGM will never be able to meet the demand for live KC, and I'm not suggesting they should, but since they won't, there will be an unfilled demand. For the record, I believe I own two RF-related bootlegs at this point. One, a horrible sounding cassette from the first Peter Gabriel tour. I've listened to about twenty minutes of it, and it recording quality is unbearable. The other I obtained a few days ago, and it's a CD of the Lizard-era lineup, from a radio broadcast in Denver. The quality is below that of Earthbound (a problematic release in itself--is it a bootleg put out by the record company against RF's wishes?). Both were given to me by a friend who works in a used-record store. The Denver CD is most noticable for a track which consists of RF introducing Ian Wallace onstage, who then does a Monty Python-esque explanation of his hobby of tearing the legs off insects. For years I'd avoided all KC and RF boots in light of Robert's opinions, and I'm uncertain what I'll do with these two. If I give them to someone else, it only encourages them to buy more bootlegs (either "This is GREAT!! I've got to get more of these!", or "This is CRAP!! There must be better out there!"). Yet, I'm reluctant to destroy them. What if years from now DGM asks for bootlegs of these shows? So they sit on my shelf. I'm reminded of friends of mine who became vegans. They won't eat animal products or use things which were developed with the aid of animal products. The subject of leather shoes/belts always comes up. The vegan in question may be wearing leather shoes, and the justification I've been given several times is that either a) they were a gift or b) they were purchased before the conversion to veganism, either way it's said, the leather had already been made, and to not use the product would mean that the animal had died completely in vain. Without bringing in a thread on the politics of radical vegetarianism, I believe there is a relevant connection to the subject of bootlegs, in that we have a "tainted object" which has been produced in a morally-objectionable manner, but which does have its uses. How to resolve this dilemma? Is it the recording of a concert which spoils the event, or is it more in the physical distraction the recording method ("Hey man, quit waving that microphone in the way, I'm trying to watch the show")? If the KC crew records a show for KC's archives, does it spoil the event for the participants? Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:55:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Thomas W. Kozal" Subject: Fripp I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but I think it is time: Mr. Fripp: SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR GUITAR!!!!! By commenting, you almost reduce yourself to the same level of the people you have a problem with. Plus you use too many multi-syllable words. I fed one of your posts into my grammer checker, and it had a fit. Us 'mericans just can't deal with all them BIG words, plus confusing paragraphs where every other word is "moment" Thank you, and don't worry, I'll buy everything you put out (although I think you put out a too few many ep's from the most recent - shades of Kate Bush!!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:39:39 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself Subject: King Crimson music performed live in LA on February 27 TO WHOM: The following message was sent to the standard ET address for publication several days ago, but I have not yet seen it in any of the subsequent issues. May I ask that it be run ASAP? (And that this introductory paragraph be removed from the publication?) Thanks. *------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings -- I wanted to post a notice that I'll be performing several King Crimson pieces in an upcoming recital here at Cal Arts, in Santa Clarita, CA (just north of LA). The concert will take place on Thursday, February 27, at 8:00 PM. The material will be part of a band project taking a cue from the current KC's instrumentation. The personnel will be a "double duo" consisting of myself and Miroslav Tadic on guitar and loops (or Frippertronics, if you prefer), and Bryon Holley and David Shaffer on drumsets. The set list will include "THRAK," "Red," and "21st Century Schizoid Man," as well as Frank Zappa's "Five-Five-FIVE," some original compositions, and possibly a solo electric guitar set in the first half. The concert is free and open to the public. Please e-mail me for more information or directions to the school. Best, --Andre LaFosse altruist at music dot calarts dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 08:33:38 -0500 From: "Buel E. Chandler" Subject: Re: [Trey Gunn and Quake bbacher at harding dot com wrote (in ET342): > Subject: Trey Gunn and Quake > > Pardon me if this is too off-topic.... > Off-topic of RRR (roles, responsibilitqes and relationships) maybe, but any thread that connects my favorite music with my current game of the day is always welcome. > I had been listening to Trey Gunn's latest, "The Third Star" (TTS), through > my computer's CDRom drive (audiophiles will cringe) one day a few weeks > ago. I finished what I was working on, stopped and closed the CD player > program, and started playing Quake. For those of you not in the know, > Quake is a gorey bloodfest, shoot-everything-that-moves computer game. > I brought up the use of THRaKaTTaK as Quake soundtrack some time ago. Though I try other, usually Fripp related pieces, I always come back to this one work as the ultimate soundtrack for Quake. As for audiophilistines, I have an Altec Lansing multimedia dolby surround setup (with powered subwoofer) that truly immerses one. What do you need when the output is two feet away anyway? As for the bllodfest aspect, I see RF enjoys Segal's work, so the thought of more music geared for said bloodfest is not unrealizable. > Maybe I'm the only ET'er who plays Quake, but somehow I doubt it. Those > who do, please try this and let me know what you think! Not only do I play, but I am in a Quake clan, Clan TRHAQ, which uses THRaKaTTaK as our background music as we take on clans over the internet in 16-person battle royales. Good introduction to younger people who will like NIN but think of KC as that "were't they around in the 60's" group. Now for something completely different, I believe a drummer for Jethro Tull played on 10 Seconds (another good Quake soundtrack BTW), which includes some stellar Frippian contributions. One last rant: Robert, how about an autobiography and some learned tomes on Guitar Craft? Ciao, bec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 14:27:19 -0500 From: Kevin Mather Subject: Live in Japan & Great Deceiver Can anyone tell me where i can purchase a copy of the Live in Japan video? My attempts to locate it here in Connecticut where i live have been unsucessful. I just picked up The Great Deceiver box set which I am thouroghly pleased with. The recording quality really is impressive for the time peroid. Just compare the quality with that of other progressive bands of the time. Yes 1973 live set (Yessongs) sounds like the microphones used to record it were in the building across the street. Am I the only one who wishes there were some cuts from Lizard or Islands on Great Deceiver? Can you imagine what Cirkus or The Letters would sound like from the Wetton version of KC? The bass line on Cat Food from Deceiver is pretty serious sounding. Hats off to Fripp for having Earthbound benched permanently benched and for having the Great Deceiver material released. The light of good works really do shine. Kevin Mather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:00:31 -0800 From: Tata Subject: RF letter I really feel shame on the fact that a musician like RF have to write a post cause he felt bad in same way. If that post would be with information of personal or Crimson projects it would be great, but it not. I don't really care if this or that guy is nice or not, I'm interested on information of music. Sergio Hernandez. P.D. If RF took the time himself to read and reply to ET, it means that he is conscious on his approach to people ( audience ). ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #343 ********************************