Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #992 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 992 Wednesday, 19 June 2002 Today's Topics: You Only Talk To the Wind Chris Cutler "Frippertronics" quote Re: David Bowie's "Heathen" Re: SABB and Young Persons Guide To KC Re: Two new dead threads Re: In The Woods... Re: 2 kwik 2 diss, miss Henry Cow and Stevie Ray Vaughan (?!) ET #990 - a few responses Fripp-Frith-Cutler Re: SABB and Young Persons Guide To KC Frippertronics fans: check out this CD KC Barbershop - oh yeah? I need a CD 80s Unreleased Recording Bowiess Heathen - where is Fripp? Tony Levin with Peter Murphy ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:28:46 -0700 From: "Steve McMillan" Subject: You Only Talk To the Wind Fellow Crimheads, has anyone else ever noticed this? If you listen to the title theme from You Only Live Twice (sung by Nancy Sinatra) and then listen to I Talk To The Wind (at least the version on The Young Person's Guide To King Crimson as sung by Judy Dyble) you will notice how similar they are. (You Only Live Twice came out first.) The melody is virtually identical, and the number of syllables even matches between the two phrases... Steve McMillan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:56:26 +0100 From: Michael dot Russell at mercerdelta dot com Subject: Chris Cutler "Frippertronics" quote I do remember seeing Chris Culter bash RF over the use of the term "Frippertronics" quite a long time ago--about 20 years back as I recall. At the same time, I had the misfortune to fall under Culter's censure. I was involved both with a tiny record label trying to release stuff by Eastern European groups and an angular improvisational ensemble. I made the mistake of sending a tape to Culter for consideration as a release on his Recommended Records label. I received back a two page handwritten letter from Cutler that effectively equated me as an American with the nasty things the US government has done over the years, criticised my indie as if it were Warner Brothers, and rejected the tape as insufficiently "specialized" for Recommended. There was a clear assumption in the letter that I was engaged in a form of theft. I considered this an example of the far left being pretty much as chauvinistic as the far right. Ironically, a reject letter from Atlantic (the only Warners affiliated label we tried) which I got on a project about a year later said we were too "specialized" for them. At least I got a good laugh out of that. Michael www.anguscollie.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:45:05 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Re: Re: David Bowie's "Heathen" I thought about replying privately with this message, but I thought that I'd reply within the pages of ET for anyone else interested but that didn't respond. Craig wrote: >What is it similar to (if anything)? It is a clear continuation of 1995's "1.Outside: The Nathen Adler Diaries" (his best album, in my opinion), and 1997's "EARTHLING". It is not a continuation, thankfully, of "hours..". By continuation, I don't mean it's exactly the same - there are differences, most obviously being David Torn's very unique guitar sound - but it's born of the same mother. Slightly avant-garde, although still with a commercial aspect. I would say it's the most Crimson-esque thing he's ever put out (with the exception of Outside, since I have no other frame of reference with you. But it's not all Crimsony. There's a track called "Everyone Says Hi" which is pretty twee, but really works, much like "Neighbourhood" from David Byrne's "Look Into The Eyeball". >Does it recall any past glories? No. It bears no resemblance to any of the "classic albums" - at least the ones I assume you mean by past glories - Ziggy Stardust, Diamond Dogs, Low & Heroes. As I said, has a similarity to Outside, which I would consider a past glory. Hope this is of some help. If you don't have Outside, and haven't guessed by my constant dropping of it's name, buy that before you buy Heathen. It's likely most of the people on this list will prefer it. Although I could be wrong, and you prefer Heathen. Just because you don't like one, doesn't mean you won't like the other. And to Stephen Mahoney >I went to a premiere of the new bowie album >h e a t h e n >and although its well produced >I didnt think much of it- *gasp*. >the audience's reactions that watched it with us ranged from >disgusted and leaving early and then those who talked through the >whole >thing to polite and without a reaction-leaving silently. Disgusted?? I can only assume that you are residing in America. I don't mean that "Americans just don't get it!" but Americans do have a better ability at not accepting music moving on than any other people I have met. Not liking is one thing and is fine.. being "disgusted" is entirely another. And King Crimson only plays in America.. hmm.. ~Cameron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:06:24 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: SABB and Young Persons Guide To KC At 02:38 PM 6/15/02 GMT, Steve wrote: >Also, I just obtained a copy of the long out of print Japanese Import double >CD of The Young Person's Guide To King Crimson. (Jasrac 1990) What a >treat! It contains an extensive booklet with concerts listed from 69 to the >mid 70s. I want to request that this be released domestically, in addition >to Earthbound and USA. > I always figured the rather large booklet that came with the original LP release would be difficult to reproduce in a CD size. I'd not seen the Japanese CD release of this, but Steve's note suggests the Japanese did OK with the booklet. So if that's not such a problem, I would have to agree that the original Young Person's Guide to King Crimson should get the same 30th Anniversary remastering/mini-LP sleeve treatment as the rest of the releases. When you think about it, most of the remastering work is already done. Offhand I can only think of three tracks that would need to be remastered - the single version of Catfood, Groon (the Catfood 'B' side) and the version of I Talk to the Wind with Judy Dyble on vocals. On an entirely different subject, I really have to mention a new Musea release that I've been listening to a lot lately. It's by a Spanish band called Alquilbencil and it titled From Serengethi to Taklamakan. I find the influence of early King Crimson to be very strong with this band. In many respects I hate to make the comparison as it suggests that their music is just a derivision of Crimson without it's own original voice. But that's really not the case here. It would probably be more accurate to say that I hear the 'spirit' of early Crimson in this band. Has anyone else heard Alquilbencil? Here's a soundbite from the album: http://www.artist-shop.com/musea/serenget.ram There's also a full length track from the album on Artist Shop Radio http://www.artist-shop.com/radio. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:10:29 -0400 From: "Barry Moore" Subject: Re: Two new dead threads I can certainly understand the reasoning behind killing the Bruford/Genesis thread... while Crimson "related" because Bruford is an alumnus, the subject matter has nothing to do with KC and belongs in a Genesis or Bruford forum. But the "Women & KC" thread?!? It is a valid and obviously popular topic, so I would be most interested in hearing our esteemed moderator's reasoning behind making it a dead thread. [ It had gone on too long and was getting boring. Sorry, I have to be subjective sometimes :-) -- Toby ] I, for one, am very interested in what the ladies find enticing about the band and its music. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:10:09 +0200 From: Bartosz_Go dzieniak Subject: Re: In The Woods... Yes, I've heard the band and the song. It's really awesome. I recommend to everyobdy! But as far as other songs are concerned I don't like them at all. They're long and monotonous... I can't find any similarity to "Red" or any other KC song. Hugs for all ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:23:21 +0100 From: Stephen Mahoney [mailto:stephenm at multcolib dot org] Subject: Re: 2 kwik 2 diss, miss I feel I agree with everything that progdawg says here with two exceptions: that Bill Laswell and John Zorns work are unimpressive. I easily admit that it doesnt fit into the more classic definition of what prog music is or was. I would have to say that zorns/laswells catalogs of work are about 50% very impressive/ the rest to some degrees unlistenable, I would have to say that I am most impressed with how they, each in their own unique ways fit a cornicopia of musical styles both popular and contemporary and traditional both urban and country/folk which at first seem more like an oil/water mix and somehow pull off a a nice blend - well, in my opinion anyway it works more than half of the time! not to compare John Zorn and Bill Laswell with the legend Miles Davis, but I feel the same way about Miles' period after Bitches Brew before retirement 70-75. For me there is some excellent stuff here and often its right next to some pretty unlistenable stuff, but I am willing to suffer through all of it to get to the real gems. Of course taste in music as with all other art is subjective- wouldnt have it any other way! my recommendations off the top of my head: zorn/laswell : early godlen palaminos zorn and guests :the big gundown and filmworks 97 - oh and watch out there are turntables used!!! np: miles live at filmore west '70 nr: "crash!ng the party" by ralph nader Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:23:56 +0100 From: jjh210 at stern dot nyu dot edu [mailto:jjh210 at stern dot nyu dot edu] Subject: Henry Cow and Stevie Ray Vaughan (?!) I just wanted to comment on the Chris Cutler/Frith/Henry Cow discussion before it disappeared. I am a fan of HC and have seen Fred many times here in New York and most recently the Victoriaville Music Fest in Quebec last month. I have thought about the comparison between Frith and Fripp before and came to the conclusion that Frith can do a wider range of sounds and styles than Fripp, and is probably a better improviser (one of the best), but I would hesitate to say that Frith is better "technically" as a former writer said. I have never heard Frith do the same sort of leads that Fripp is known for with the same sort of intense precision. I'm sure others will disagree but that's my view. There have been a number of times that the two's music has paralleled. The first is the early 70s period which has been discussed; I recently heard an HC bootleg from '75 that sounded much like the LTIA band (with Muir). Also the close connections between Massacre circa '81 and the Discipline band are apparent. I like the earlier quote that HC is the best rock avant band and KC the best rockers w/a little avant. I recall reading FF comment on RF briefly, seemed to have respect for him. Lastly, the Stevie Ray Vaughan CD Live at Montreux which was issued last year has an essay from David Bowie, who said SRV asked him "how it was working with Robert Fripp and Pete Townshend." So I guess the guy was into more than the blues... Jim Hannigan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:46:35 -0400 From: "Peter Badore" Subject: ET #990 - a few responses Nik & Geno (and others) have it right, Roy Miles has it wrong. The Barbershop ditty was "recorded in 1983", according to the boxed set (please read carefully). Why stop at the 80s, Lawrence Mosely? Heck, LTIA is only 29, SABB & "Red" 28, "USA" will be 27, and, if it still counts, "Young Person's..." is 26 years old. "Earthbound" will be, of course, on time. Finally, I'd appreciate a woman who would tolerate me, Crimhead or not! That's all folks! Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:04:58 -0600 From: "Luna Negra, S.C." Subject: Fripp-Frith-Cutler Hi: Hope you're all fine. I've been forwarded the King Fripp/ Fred Frith/ Chris Cutler related messages to Chris, good friend of mine. I asked him if I could forward his messages to the list and he told me it was ok if I wanted. So, here you are... greetings from Mexico. Juan Jose @ Luna Negra ----- Mensaje original ----- De: cc Para: Luna Negra, S.C. Enviado: Miercoles, 12 de Junio de 2002 11:06 a.m. Asunto: RE: RADIO > hi > > i hope you will do something for the radio?? go for a walk with a microphone? > > as for the king crimson, i didn't want to start a fight, i was just being > honest, not unpleasant, i take it as a fact that we were not influenced by > KC, and i can say for sure that i disliked their first LP and their > concerts at that time; that's not unpleasant, at least not meant to be; i > didn't say they were bad or incompetent, just that i didn't like them. > Which is a lain fact. Are my comments about frippertronics silly? I can > only say ask any inventive guitarist who was around at the time. trust me > they were all doing it; it was kind of folk knowledge. > > >Maybe his grief towards the Larks' Tongues band is that they ventured a > few months earlier >in a territory that Henry Cow wanted to make their own . > > not really, we could hardly make improvising 'our own'; i commented only on > the publicity and the claims the group made at the time, not on the > improvising itself.. samla mammas manna were a great improvising rock band, > as were danger and many others. > > >(I don't remember KC being especially vocal about their originality as > rock improvisors > > I do,in every music paper when the lp came out > > > and as to the statement about Frippertronics, it is so silly that I laughed. > i fail to see what's silly about it, and finding it silly is not an > argument, just a comment > chris cutler > > www.ccutler.com and... De: cc Para: Luna Negra, S.C. Enviado: Sabado, 15 de Junio de 2002 05:24 a.m. Asunto: Re: more about the Henry Cow/ King Fripp affaire > hi > > by all means forward my answers if you want to the "Elephant Talk" e-mail > list.. > > I should repeat that though I am not a king crimson fan it is a little > absurd to say things like > > > considering how much he seems to dislike him. Why would anyone go out > > of their way >to follow someone they obviously dislike? > > I repeat, I don't so obviously dislike Fripp at all - i don't even know > him. I just said that I didn't like KC's music much, and that I was rather > negatively impressed by Frip's claims about frippertronics and the general > promo overstatements by the press about KC's originality. Nothing to do > with any personal feelings about fripp himself. I certainly haven't gone > out of my way to follow him, nor have i avoided him; but i do try to keep > an open ear and an open mind about most things musical.. > > ok > more soon > > > c > chris cutler > www.ccutler.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:20:38 EDT From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: SABB and Young Persons Guide To KC Steve McMillan wrote: >I just got my second copy of the 30th anniversary CD Remaster of Starless >and Bible Black, and on track 6 "The Mincer," the audio abruptly cuts out >after about 4 minutes and 8 seconds. It sounds as though the tape machine >just stops. The disc definitely does not skip. It's been a while since >I've listened to this song-is it supposed to be this way? Yes it is. What you're hearing is the original tape reel running out during the concert. ("The Mincer" is a live track with studio overdubs--there was no vocal on the original performance.) I've always loved the disintegrating effect as the crumpled tape-end goes through the machine, myself. Cheers, Biffy the Elephant Shrew http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:52:59 -0700 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: Frippertronics fans: check out this CD By a fellow named Gideon Freudmann, it's called "Hologram Crackers" and is on the Gadfly Records label out of Burlington, VT. What this is, is solo electric cello (!) with digital loops. The pieces "were recorded in one pass using digital delays and looping gear to create a dense overdubbed sound." The technique is thus similar to that used by RF, laying down the backing tracks then soloing over the top, but the musical style is quite different: deeply rooted in jazz, with borrowings from klezmer, blues, cajun, classical and minimalism. The tunes are clever and interesting, and the sonic pallette is fairly broad thanks to the combination of bowing & plucking techniques and the use of various delays, reverbs, and distortions. Not much resemblance to KC, but open minded music enthusiasts will find a lot to enjoy here. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:26:31 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: KC Barbershop - oh yeah? Re the Barbershop Quartet... I first heard this back on the Frame By Frame boxset, and have never really believed that it's just TLev singing all four vocal parts. Unless he's particularly good with accents/mimicry, and also possesses the rather tricky comedy talent of knowing how to sing vocal parts which sound as if the singer is trying quite hard but isn't all that good. Certainly the "Belew" vocal parts have Adrian's accent and intonation, the "Bobby" parts have Fripp's West Country burr and non-singer straining, and the "Billy" parts are in the right vocal range for Bruford - not to mention the latter two having an English intonation. Of course, maybe the other three members only appeared on the intro ("I'm Tony, I'm Billy, I'm Bobby, I'm Belew...") to stamp their mark on the song, and the rest is TLev alone, but it doesn't really sound that way. Given the high level of musicality in the group, and the fact that TLev successful coached the core musicians on "Peter Gabriel 1" to perform a similar stunt for "Excuse Me", I reckon that that is in fact the whole quartet on there. Trivial argument, I know, but I've always loved this piece, as it's a welcome leavening of humour in Crimson's output and sounds like a welcome break from the difficulties that beset the '80s line-up at the time. It's also something you can put on a compilation tape for a beginner-level Crimson fan, to get them to laugh like a drain. Dann ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:05:39 -0400 From: Nestor Rios Subject: I need a CD Hi friends: I hope you can help me. I would like to find in Cd format, the USA album. A couple of years ago I had a italian copy of that album on CD, but now, it's hard to find it. Why? Thanks in advance, Nestor Rios Punta Arenas Patagonia-Chile ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:44:58 -0700 From: "Steve McMillan" Subject: 80s Unreleased Recording >From a previous post: "And as I have asked before, for a club release PLEASE, the album of music that KC shelved before TOAPP. This, unless I am much mistaken would be great, a whole studio album waiting ...but now just gathering dust." I want to second his motion to release that 80s recording. Dang, a previously unreleased disc of 80s Crimson material would be incredible! I still think the 80s King Crimson has the best, most timeless sound of any band to come out of that period. How many 80s bands did you listen to then that you still listen to? The Crim remains King. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 10:54:39 +0000 From: "Orn Orrason" Subject: Bowies's Heathen - where is Fripp? Hi there I was just wondering now that Bowie has returned to more Scary Monsters type of an album (his best for sure) why Fripp is totally absent. Bowie has not used Fripp since 1980 in his recordings. In some of Fripp's diaries from last year he does mention to have spoken to Mr. B. and that some kind of collaboration might be possible. Does anyone know why they don't sit in the studio at the same time at the same place? I have the feeling that Bowie doesn't want to take the risk of adding that Fripp scary sound to his smooth records. There will probably only be one Scary Monsters album. -- Orn Orrason / Fjarskiptasvio VP of Networks Fixed: +354 595 5006 Mobile: +354 820 5006 Email: orn dot orrason at islandssimi dot is or just o at c dot is Skooio http://sagainternets.c.is --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:05:55 EDT From: Ianreyn at aol dot com Subject: Tony Levin with Peter Murphy Hey gang, I had the pleasure of seeing Peter Murphy in Boston this past Wednesday and was surprised and delighted to see (and hear) none other than Tony Levin on bass and Chapman Stick. Peter's voice was in fine form -- very powerful, and he's quite the showman too -- and his band for the tour are top notch. If anyone has a hankerin' dark, hypnotic, Middle-Eastern infused rock with ample doses of T-Lev's signature rumblings then I would heartily suggest catching Peter Murphy at a club near you. Peace, Ian ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #992 ********************************