Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #989 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 989 Thursday, 13 June 2002 Today's Topics: The food of love kc cover art fonts... KC Wives Re: Definitive Crim women who love KC Re: wives Re: wives Re: Peter Sinfield / PFM USA is NOT currently available (the neverending debate...) Re: Bruford on Three Sides Live Women and KC Definitive Crim Re: Bruford & Genesis book Information needed Re: King Crimson Barbershop song... Absent Lovers; Barbershops; Wives Frippertronics David Bowie's "Heathen" Re: KC barbershop Re: King Crimson and Henry Cow Bruford drums Genesis on video Re: bruford and genesis ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:16:33 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: The food of love This from Elephant Talk - dated 11/6/02 10.45 pm: > Lucky me, my wife does like KC! > I am happy to report that my mizzus likes KC quite a bit > my girlfriend is a big King Crimson fan Back in dim and distant college days, music was a big part of my courting ritual - but although King Crimson/Fripp and Van der Graaf/Hammill were major components of my record collection, I never tried to impress any potential dates with them. (I steered away from the whole prog thing after some early disasters with Spooky Tooth's version of 'I Am The Walrus' and an uncompromising live version of Man's 'Many Are Called But Few Get Up'.) It might seem that cranking up the volume and blasting a cute chick with side one of 'Red' would be the ultimate declaration of virility, but the girls I met seemed to prefer a lighter touch*. My courting days are long gone, but I'd be interested to hear which Crim/Fripp tracks have been effectively used by the young bucks on this list when seeking to impress the ladies. Regards Mr Tea ~~~~~~~~~~~~ *For the record, two pieces of music stand out in my mind as having been especially effective in prising open, er, I mean winning the hearts of respectable young English ladies. These were 'Spem in Alium' and 'Summer with Monica'. The first is a choral piece by 16th century composer, Thomas Tallis. Staggeringly complex and powerful, guaranteed to induce a semi-orgasmic trance when the timing is right. The second is a poem cycle by Roger McGough, telling the story of a brief, incandescent love affair, over an evocative musical backdrop. Sensitive, funny, intelligent - everything a nice girl likes to find in a fellow. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:56:26 +0200 From: "Nadim S. Haque" Subject: kc cover art fonts... hello! as a font fetishist and completist, i would love any hints as to what fonts (if they're available as true-type or type1) were used on kc album covers. i am especially looking for the font (not something close, but *the* font, please) that was used for the covers and sleeve texts of "discipline", "beat", and "three of a perfect pair". thanks!!! :) Nadim S. Haque sliced|suitcase Fly Out Reiseladen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:19:14 -0400 From: "Gary Beck" Subject: KC Wives One of the reasons I hooked up with my wife is that we have about 75% of the same listening tastes. We knew each other in high-school but didn't get together for a few years later, when she came over to my house to listen to my band rehearse. We were playing music from larks Tongues in Aspic, and she asked me what it was. I said Crimson. She said that she owned Wake of Poseidon and In the Court of The Crimson King, but didn't know what else to buy. When I told her about the Adrian Belew connection, that sealed it. She already was an Ade nut. I have no problems when I want to listen to a KCCC, in fact we broke out Zoom club as soon as we got. She's cool about my vintage drumset collection, going to prog. concerts (loves Tull, Rush and Classic Yes too) and makes sure I can practice whenever I can, and assures that I do 8-9 hour a day. No problems with my jazz obsession either, digs Andrew Hill and Coltrane. Just celebrated our 10th year Wedding anniversary. She's very cool! Not to add insult, but my last girlfriend loved Crimson too, but she was 15 years older than me, so she was probably a first generation fan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:44:38 -0500 From: "Stick Man" Subject: Re: Definitive Crim I like the old Crimson material but if I had to pick 1 song it would be The ConstruKction of Light. I like the intertwined lines, the groove, and especially the last verse. If I got to pick 2 songs I'd also take the live version of Red from the King Biscuit Flower Hour that (I think) was aired in 1984. Stickman -- http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:54:30 -0500 From: "ALARCON CLAUDIA" Subject: women who love KC Hey all, In case it matters, I am a bigger fan of KC than my current boyfriend, who thinks "they're pretty good." I also introduced my former husband to the band, and has subsequently become a big fan himself. There are few things I like better in this world than driving my car on a clear Austin evening, my sunroof open, blasting Thela Hun Gingeet out of the car stereo. Now, if only I could meet Adrian in person... Gotta go watch some World Cup football now. Cheers, Claudia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:54:17 -0300 (ADT) From: "John S. Gray" Subject: Re: wives My wife and I had our first date at the KC open-air show in Toronto in 1984. While this male has been a long-time Fripp-o-phile, my better half went bonkers for Ade Belew. So while she is like other wives in respect to prog/fusion hating (I have to keep Ponty, Mahavishnu, Gates of Delirium, &c. under headphones) she has a soft spot for post-81 Crimso. JJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:45:54 -0400 From: "Suzanne DeCory" Subject: Re: wives Huge female Crimson fan here... although, not married just yet ;-) It's funny because over the years I've tried to turn Crimson onto various friends, female AND male alike - and the response is always rather, shall I say cold? Not always the case but largely mostly so. I also usually feel like one of the only female fans when attending shows... and this includes solo and project(k) gigs of the band members, past and present. My observations (and overhearing) for most of the few women attending seem like they were dragged along. (I've also dragged male friends along oddly enough lol.) Well, at least we try; that's all we can do right? (: So, I've yet to meet a future boyfriend/husband into Crimson. How ironic! Take care, Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:54:52 +0000 From: "Paul Dickinson" Subject: Re: Peter Sinfield / PFM Lawrence Moseley wrote:- >Can anyone enlighten me on some lyrical writing and nature please? I do not >have the Photo's Of Ghosts album from PFM. This is one of two (?) that Pete >Sinfield translated PFM lyrics. Apparently PFM were not too happy with the >translation as Mr Sinfield did not agree with the political nature of the >lyrics so he, apparently, re- wrote them. > >What is the nature of the original PFM lyrics? > >What is the nature of the Pete Sinfield translation? > >I do have the L'Isola di Niente album. The relevant track 'Is My Face On >Straight?' co-composer, S.Sinfield (Yes I know Peter starts with a P. not >an >S...) is the reason for me seeking information. The nature of these lyrics, >though vocaly unclear seems ever so suspect. > >Who wrote what? Is it PFM with the dodgy lyric or Mr Sinfield? I emailed >their site but, no reply for now. > >Musically I like PFM. With most of their stuff in Italian I have no idea as >to the content but a momentary and controversial bit of English has me >wanting to know more... > >Any clarification much appreciated. > >Thanks > >Lawrence As far as I'm aware Peter Sinfield collaborated with PFM to write English lyrics for PFM's first 2 International releases, Photos Of Ghosts and the World Became The World. Photos Of Ghosts musically was identical (except for slight remixing) to PFM's 2nd Italian release with the addition of 2 tracks (one, Celebration, a reworking of a track off their 1st album) - one song, Il Banchetto, was unchanged and Sinfield added lyrics to an instrumental, Generale/Mr Nine Till Five, however other songs (River Of Life, Photos Of Ghosts, Celebration and Promenade The Puzzle) received new lyrics. I'm afraid I don't speak Italian so can't comment on the similarity between Sinfields lyrics and the Italian original. The World Became The World musically was again identical to PFM's 3rd Italian release (L'Isola Di Niente) with the addition of 1 track, The World Became The World (again a reworking of a track from their 1st album). Interestingly the Italian release contained one track, Is My Face On Straight? with English lyrics which is identical to the International release. Other tracks, The Mountain, Just Look Away, The World Became The World and Four Holes In The Ground received new lyrics and again I'm not in a position to compare these with the Italian counterparts. Sinfield's lyrics on these 2 albums continue in the overall "Green" direction of alienation from modern technology and middle class society that Sinfield showed on tracks like 21CSM, Epitaph, Cat Food, Karn Evil 9 etc. I used to dislike some of these lyrics and I can see that the lyrics to Is My Face On Straight? could have caused some offence (although I do like his jabs at middle class hypocrisy on this, and I think Mr Nine Till Five and Just Look Away are both very good). For their next International release PFM brought in Marva Jan Marrow for English lyrics. I'm not sure if there was any fall out over Sinfield's previous lyrical content or perhaps just a need for more independence by the band. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:15:54 +0200 From: Laurent Masse Subject: USA is NOT currently available (the neverending debate...) >First, Asbury Park was/is available on the Frame By Frame box set on the >live compilation disc 4. Also the original live source material from USA >is available (without the overdubs) on disc 1 of The Great Deceiver box set >(Palace Theater, Providence, RI, June 30, 1974). Consulting my copy of Eric >Tamm's RobertFripp book, Mr. Tamm writes (on page 74): "The live album USA, >released around April 1975, was recorded toward the end of their final 1974 >tour: the song Asbury Park at the Asbury Park, New Jersey Casino on June >28, and the rest two days later at the Palace Theater in Providence, Rhode >Island." Sorry to waste so much bandwidth about USA. But let me put things straight once more before Toby decides it's enough. Printed sources as Mr. Tamm's book (which I've never read) and the Frame By Frame booklet claim all of USA except Asbury Park were recorded in Providence. Hence the common belief that USA is available on The Great Deceiver. But this was a mistake. The mistake was corrected by Mr. Singleton in person back in 1997 when preparing USA II (which was then dumped in favour of The Night Watch): 1) All of the tracks on USA except 21CSM (which is really from Providence as Mr. Buxbaum pointed) were recorded in Asbury Park and are not the same versions as on The Great Deceiver I. If you make a close comparison, it's difficult to tell for Larks'II, but Exiles, Lament and Easy Money reveal really significant differences. 2) On the back cover of USA, you can read that the overdubs are just violin on LarksII and 21CSM and electric piano on Lament. So there are no overdubs on the USA versions of Easy Money and Exiles. When comparing these versions with those on The Great Deceiver I, once again there are too much differences, not because of re-mixing or erased overdubs, but because these are actually different performances. 2) The Asbury Park recording of 21CSM (missing on the original USA) was mixed by Fripp/Singleton (or Chris R. Murphy ?) in 1997 to be included (along with Fracture and Starless I think) as a bonus on USAII. This version surfaced on the 21CSM EP (the liner notes present it as a teaser for USAII) and is not to be found anywhere else as USA II was subsequently dumped in favour of The Night Watch. This version of 21CSM has a tremendous energy surge at the end of the solos section unlike anything I've heard in other renditions of this tune by this lineup. But if you look for "finesse" however, this may not be your cup of tea. 3) USAII was originally supposed to be the whole of the Asbury Park show remixed by Murphy (or Fripp/Singleton ?) on a double CD. Then it was suggested the original mixes may be included on the second CD. But the whole project was shelved shortly after. The original USA mixes were much later remastered as part of the 30th anniversary series (at the time of the 80's trilogy I think). Mr. Fripp himself told in a diary entry they intended to add some bonus tracks (the '97 mixes?) for a subsequent Virgin release. Early in 2002, this was supposed to be released along with Earthbound and Thrak in Spring 2002. And no news since. Shelved once more? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:22:15 +0200 From: Laurent Masse Subject: Re: Bruford on Three Sides Live >I know Bruford (along with Chester Thompson) is credited for playing drums >on Genisis' Three Sides Live - does anyone know which tracks he's actually >on? It/Watcher Of The Skies, from the '76 Trick Of The Tail tour. Unmistakeable Bruford snare at the beginning. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:53:24 -0300 From: "diderot.debritto" Subject: Women and KC Jordan wrote: >im always hearing people on this list talk about their >wives and how they hate king crimson, or they dont like >hearing it, or they tolerate in now and then... does >anyone here have a wife that is a equal or bigger fan >of KC than they are? Well, my first wife tolerated KC, but she couldn't afford Frippertronics/Radiofonics or so. My second wife loves Three of a Perfect Pair, the album and the title song. She likes too The Great Deceiver set, but avoids 21st CSM. I had some friends whom we shared and exchanged KC records and tapes from Wetton era in the 80's. After that it's been a sole entertainment as I can't find no one, but my wife, to enjoy King Crimson as it deserves. Diderot ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:57:47 +0300 From: Julius Lehtonen Subject: Definitive Crim My favourite King Crimson song would probably be from Discipline. I don't know, there's so many good songs. Maybe "Elephant Talk", "Thela Hun Ginjeet" or P2's "The Deception of the Thrush". Oh yes, and the "Dangerous Curves" / "Level Five" pair is very "eargastic" ;). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:08:24 -0600 From: "Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Re: Bruford & Genesis Mark Rehder writes: > Listening to Bill in this time period shows him to be playing quite on top > of the beat, as opposed to his more laid-back feel with Yes and even Crimson. > But he has publicly acknowledged that he grew bored with Genesis' music, > and was rather fidgety and irritable while on tour. At home, I have a videotape of the "Second's Out" tour, in which Bill plays throughout (as opposed to the SO album, were he only appears in "Cinema Show"). I'd say he seems to be enjoying himself, but then, maybe the video was shot in the early part of the tour. Anyway, Mark's comments support the feeling I've always had that, somehow, Bruford really never seemed to fit-in with Genesis. Which is probably also the same reason for which he left Yes. He seems to be most at home with a band whose music is more free-form, allowing for greater improvisation and creativity, which are things KC has always excelled at. Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:31:04 +0200 From: "Dominik Brueckner" Subject: book Information needed Hi! always trying to complete information for my Progressive Rock bibliography (www.progbibliography.de), I want to ask the ET community, if anyone knowa more about the following books: 1. Lake, Greg: Word Sculptures. Lyrics from the Musical Life of Greg Lake. Greg Lake Ltd. c/o Pilato Entertainment 1997. ISBN: 0966505409. Where has "Word Sculptures" been published? 2. Author? King Crimson. Goldmine. January 10, 1992. Krause Publications 1992. Who is the author? Is this a Fanzine special? 3. Author? King Crimson. Groups, solo & related works. FM Books, Tokyo. Who is the author? When has this book been published? Is there an ISBN? 4. Author? King Crimson. Marquee Moon. Does anybody know who the author is? Publishing year, place? ISBN? It would be great if anyone out there could help me! Nik Brueckner www.progbibliography.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:50:58 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: King Crimson Barbershop song... In ET # 988, Nik Smith wrote: "What's the deal with this song? Is that actually them singing in barbershop? or just some people they hired that say "I'm Robert.." ? Also when did this appear. I know it is on Three of a Perfect Pair remastered (as I have it) but was it a B-side or what?" Actually, Tony Levin wrote that ditty and overdubbed all the vocal parts during the 3PP sessions. He is an aficionado of barbershop (see Excuse Me from Peter Gabriel I - outstanding remastered sound, BTW!) Apparently, he presented the song to the band as a joke, and, according to Musician magazine, Robert allegedly said "Let's include it!" It appeared on the Frame by Frame box set but was otherwise unreleased until the 3PP remaster. See - KC DOES have a sense of humor! Cheers, Dan Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:50:20 +0000 From: "Sarah Metivier" Subject: Absent Lovers; Barbershops; Wives Scott (or should I say deadbees), I did quite a bit of research and I can't find any evidence of the existence of Absent Lovers with a yellow cover. I am not sure why some Absent Lovers have a red cover and some have a blue cover. I can't prove this, but I seem to remember that the red cover came out after the blue cover (maybe)? Was the color change for a 2nd pressing of the CD? Was one color the UK release and the other the US release? Beats me. But on DGM, it shows the red cover as still for sale. If I were you, I'd try there first. Nik, Tony Levin did all 4 voices on the King Crimson Barbershop. Amazing, huh? I believe the song was created for inclusion on "The Abbreviated King Crimson" (this album came out as a companion piece to the FBF box set and was originally intended for release as a radio promo only. RF, realizing that all of us would be trying to get our grubby little hands on it, then made the decision to release it to the general public). At any rate, the barbershop was intended as a fun little ditty that DJs could play (similar to the KC Medley on the same album) to promote the box set. The barbershop appears on Disc 3 of the FBF box set as well. And finally, the wives thread...my problem is the opposite: I can't seem to meet a man who loves KC like I do. I've dated guys who will tolerate KC, but that's about it. The fact that I'm in an age bracket that is severely underrepresented among Crimheads (I'm 25) only compounds the problem. I do have two girlfriends who are the biggest KC fans I've ever met, however, we are definitely the exception rather than the rule. Anyway--hope the Absent Lovers and Barbershop info was helpful. FAQMaster Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:08:12 -0700 From: ralph foster Subject: Frippertronics At 11:09 PM 6/12/02 Wednesday +0000, Bergeon, Thomas C wrote: >when is the collectors club going to offer tapes of fripp ripping his >guitar >over Frippertronics loops >my friend saw one of the shows around 80 and thought the soloing was >fantastic >certainly a tape or two exists Certainly they do! There was at least one double LP bootleg. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:56:54 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: David Bowie's "Heathen" Surprised not to have heard anything from anyone on this yet considering the names on it (David Torn, Tony Levin, Mark Chamberlain, Jordan Rudess) - I just wanted to make sure everyone realises how great it is (except the 2nd track, which is a crap cover of a crap pixies song - why David? WHY?). Buy it. Torn's contribution is obvious, as is Levin's on track 3 ( that bass can only be Levin ). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:18:56 -0500 From: "Brandon S." Subject: Re: KC barbershop A question in the last newsletter: What's the deal with this song? Is that actually them singing in barbershop? or just some people they hired that say "I'm Robert.." ? This track is all Tony Levin, composed in his spare time during the "Three of a Perfect Pair" sessions, with invividual overdubs for each of the other guys, representing them. Tony has a background in the barbershop quartet style, I believe he was in a group in his youth. He brought in the tune, either during or after the sessions, and played it for Robert Fripp. Mr. Fripp thought the tune was cute, and was, I believe, a b-side to either "Sleepless" or "Man with an Open Heart" (I could be wrong), and was only recently added as an extra to the "3OAPP" remaster of last year, which is quite good, with all of those mixes of "Sleepless". I deem this to be my good deed of the day. Brandon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:35:48 -0400 From: "Alan Cohen" Subject: Re: King Crimson and Henry Cow > As for Fripp vs. Frith? No question in my mind. Fred Frith is undoubtedly > the better guitarist. Not just technically - but listen to his solo guitar > work: Guitar Solos from the '70s and the recent 'Clearing' on John Zorn's > Tzadik label if you doubt that - but in the range of his work with various > groups (not just Henry Cow but the likes of Naked City, Skeleton Crew, Aksak > Maboul), his free improvisations and his developing oeuvre as a composer. > But that solo in 'A sailor's tale'... nothing like it by anyone else. Although I haven't heard much of Frith in quite a few years, I've certainly enjoyed him. But compared to Fripp, Frith sounds like he's trying too hard to be avante garde, where, for my ears at least, the music seems to flow from Fripp without the conscious effort. At times, Frith seems to be playing as dissonantly as possible, and it's like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer.On the other hand, my favorite Fripp example is the sixth song from the "Repercussions" CD. He plays some of the most twisted chords I've ever heard, but sounds like he's having a great time. I wish he'd do more of that. Frith does seem to have more range in his music however. I found it interesting how much Cutler seems to know of Fripp, considering how much he seems to dislike him. Why would anyone go out of their way to follow someone they obviously dislike? I think when he spoke of Frippertronics, he was talking about Fripps signature sustain. But I'm only guessing. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:06:26 -0400 From: jrgmmg at comcast dot net Subject: Bruford drums Genesis on video As everyone probably knows and mentions, Bill only played on Cinema Show (unfortunately) and not Supper's Ready. Although there is a video out there somewhere of the tour Bill played on with Genesis and it features Supper's Ready from the Apocalypse in 9/8 part on. I taped the video many years back off of TV on USA's Nightflight show in the wee hours of the morning. The audio is not the best, but it's definitely worth having just to see Bill in his overalls with the large "B" on them playing his distinct style to some great Genesis music. The "Fly on a Windshield", "Los Endos", and "Cinema Show" are my favorites. John G ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:57:02 -0400 From: Mark Rehder Subject: Re: bruford and genesis Frank P > I know Bruford (along with Chester Thompson) is credited for playing drums > > on Genisis' Three Sides Live - does anyone know which tracks he's actually > > on? > > If I remember right, he plays on "Supper's Ready" as well as the other tracks > mentioned. I had the seconds out cassette years ago and it actually listed > Chester's tracks and Bruford's tracks. I only remember Supper's ready because > I loved that song. Listen to the cd. . .you can tell the songs Bill is on. Sorry, but you're mixing up albums here. The original post you're quoting asks about "Three Sides Live", not Seconds Out. And as others have mentioned, Bill only appears on Cinema Show on SO, and on IT/Watcher on 3SL. Supper's Ready on SO was played by Chester, as he did for the rest of tracks on this album. I read in an interview that Genesis did record all of the Trick tour, and were going to use much of it for their next live album, but after they listened back to tapes from the Wind and Wuthering tour, they opted to go with the versions Chester played on instead. I believe they kept Bill's version of Cinema partly because it IS great (though Phil actually does most of the drumming!), and perhaps as an official way of acknowledging Bill's contribution to that stage of their career. For a real treat, find the video of the Trick tour (all 30 minutes of it). Bill's playing works on some tunes for me, and not on others (it's also fun to watch Phil charge around when he's not singing, esp. on I know What I Like. He was still getting his feet wet with stage presentation, and he has stated that he didn't know what to do with all his energy on that tour!). On the end section of Supper's Ready Bill rushes through his fills to a point of almost throwing off Mike Rutherford. It must have been a bit frustrating for man of his talent to come from something like KC and into a session job like Genesis, where he absolutely no input as to what was going on (which is one of the reasons he did not continue with them). But hey, then he went and put his energy into UK, and then his solo stuff, and look where he ended up a few years after that! ;o) Mark ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #989 ********************************