Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #981 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 981 Sunday, 26 May 2002 Today's Topics: Crimson - 1969 members @ Canterbury Fayre 2002 password for concert footage Tours Praise for DGM! Beg and Borrow but also STEAL! The Musical Box tour in the UK starts this week Craft Tunning? Top 5 videos that desparately need to be reissued on DVD! Re: Brian May Re: Deception Of The Thrush Re: one thousand years Odds and ends Re: 1969 live Essential Tools Lost Fripp title ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:27:48 +0100 From: "Tiz @ ProgressForum" Subject: Crimson - 1969 members @ Canterbury Fayre 2002 UK-based Canterbury Fayre 2002 details have just come through on the Hay-wire! 21st Century Schizoid Band (music of *King Crimson*) - original Crimson members Michael Giles, Peter Giles, Ian McDonald, Mel Collins, + Level 42 vocalist Jakko M. Jakszyk aim to perform music not only from 'In the Court of the Crimson King' but also 'Epitaph' - some of which hasn't been performed since 1969 - along with numbers from the albums 'In the Wake of Poseidon' and works of Giles, Giles & Fripp + McDonald & Giles and later solo CDs. Apparently, "Some of the original pieces have been updated and developed using new arrangements and free improvisation." New compositions from all the musicians will also be performed in the adventurous spirit of the original Crimson. Best spiel IMHO is "complete with saxophone, flute and mellotron..." All the pennies I've been saving for a trip to Sweden (Anglagard reforming, hopefully, and all), and now finally some guys in the UK aim to make music really progress! www.canterburyfayre.com for online booking Friday, August 23rd : Fish Ozric Tentacles Caravan Kevin Ayres Saturday, Aug. 24th : Jack Bruce + Cuicoland Express All About Eve 21st Century Schizoid Band (music of King Crimson) - featuring original members Michael Giles, Peter Giles, Ian McDonald, Mel Collins, + Jakko M. Jakszyk Diesel West Coast The Muffin Men Mostly Autumn + special guest t.b.a. Sunday, Aug. 25th : The Stranglers The Damned Love with Arthur Lee The Pretty Things Oysterband Arthur Brown Man Karnataka Master of Ceremonies = Arthur Brown Location for Canterbury Fayre 2002 is : Mount Ephraim Gardens, Hernhill, Faversham, near Canterbury, Kent (not too far from airports Gatwick and Heathrow - in case some non-UK people are tempted to visit!) Tickets (bought in advance) cost : full weekend = #80 UK pounds Friday only = #25 Saturday = #35 Sunday = #35 Cost includes free camping (includes RVs & caravans), free parking, free bus shuttle from Faversham railway (railroad!) station. Free admission for children under 14 years of age if accompanied by an adult. Tiz Hay, webmistress ProgressForum site http://www.geocities.com/progressforum/ email : tiz at progress dot freeserve dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:03:47 -0400 From: "Jason" Subject: password for concert footage Can someone please e mail me the password to view the concert footage on the Heavy Constukction CD. My e mail address is mudslingerred87 at yahoo dot com I can not find it on any web page. Thank you ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:18:53 -0500 From: Loren Karnick Subject: Tours I sometimes wonder if anyone is paying attention out there. I have been reading a lot of back and forth on KC touring with Tool and a recent poster suggested that they might want to tour with Rush who are going out soon. The persons who think that KC shouldn't tour with Tool or have other suggestion have not been paying attention to RF. He doesn't want to live in the past, he wants to let the now come through his music and that means listening to now music, playing with now musicians and generally living now (cliche ridden as that may read). While I personally haven't been able to get into TCOL as much as others have, I also can see that he is trying to keep his music alive. The best comparison that I can make, and one that a rock and roll audience might not follow, is in the jazz world. Miles Davis, to use one example, would periodically change the members in his band, with those members staying at about the same age while he got older and older. It wasn't because he feared getting older, but because he wanted his music to stay fresh. While many jazz fans didn't like a number of the directions that he went in, no one could say that the music didn't challenge. Not meaning to close off the debate, but I think that despite what are sometimes sidesteps, RF and KC continue to present challenging music and maybe, as fans, we ought to defer to his judgment a bit more in his choices. You can always say that you don't like the direction, but I don't think that if you really care about music (and not just a period or style) you can fault him for his approach (or for that matter any of the members of the band, particularly AB, who seems to get slagged regularly for reasons of taste). I can say that for me, while I may not like everything that he does, I like that he continually challenges me. Regards ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:03:55 -0400 From: Michael Bennett Subject: Praise for DGM! I received a dvd player for my birthday, and promptly ordered Deja Vroom. First of all, praises to DGM for a one week turnaround, from me ordering it, to it arriving at my home. Very nice! I agree with most, that the menus are difficult to navigate, but the disc is wonderful. The band is in top form, the song selection is adequate, and the bonus features are sweet! The performance of Indiscipline is worth the price alone! During my own mix of 21st CSM, one of the photos is of a KC ticket, and ironically enough the date happens to be my birthday! Pretty cool... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:55:08 -0700 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Beg and Borrow but also STEAL! >I'm in preproduction on a student film. We're going to be shooting in June >and July of this summer for an October presentation. The film (being shot >on Super 8mm) is based on H.P. Lovecraft's "Haunter of the Dark." I had >planned to use music from Crimson under a scene where the protagonist is >walking around San Francisco. I've considered using "Requiem" or "Nuages" >or "Industry" as the music, but I thought it would be interesting to see if >anyone had any other suggestions. Well, HPL has been so poorly served by film that you're, first of all, running against the wind...but who knows? Maybe you'll be the guy to put things to right. About the only film to come somewhat close was the first, "The Dunwich Horror", although the recent "Necronomicom" was amusing if nothing else (with HPL as an Indiana Jonesy academician adventurer...yeah, right, mama's boy Howie braving the world...funny stuff; next we'll be seeing Robert E. Howard as a John Wayne, God help us). Of the selections you cite, I see "Industry" as the only KC possibility, for its ambulatory sense. However, if that seems not to fit and you find yourself still searching for a REALLY moody number, allow me to suggest Japan's "The Tenant", on their "Obscure Alternatives" LP. It's one of the most Fripp & Eno-ish songs around and moody to the Nth degree. Somehow it's presence seems to have gone unnoticed amongst KCophiles. It doesn't have any real sense of motion, but its brooding introversion is almost smothering. If that doesn't fit, also look to the KC analogues: Shylock, Heldon, Anekdoten, etc. I strongly suspect Richard Pinhas (Heldon) will, amongst his many releases, have something worthy. You had also mentioned something about a concern for your appropriation of KC material. That should be a problem only if money is made - and student films are not that sort of venue. Though, strictly speaking, one should not appropriate another artist's materials whole hog, there are philosophical AND legal matters to consider here, both of them on your side. First, recall Dali's dictum: "A good artist borrows from the masters, a great artist STEALS from them". From the mouth of genius comes cogency. Then, consider Fripp ripping off Holst ("Devil's Triangle") and you should begin to have your answer. The only real problem arises in cases where you might "rob" an artist of potential monies. Though the spirit and philosophy of property is rooted in abstracts, the courts are almost always only concerned with "damages", which are, 99.99999% of the time, monetary or translatable to money. Where no money losses are sustained, the court doesn't really want to hear about it. Secondarily, even if the court WOULD hear it, if you don't have anything the plaintiff can fairly take, then all they end up doing is paying for their own legal irritation and coming away with nothing. Students, it may be noted, are notoriously not rich - and, if adult, their parents are no longer responsible for their actions, so there's no problem there: a plaintiff couldn't transfer the onus to one's parents. I am not, by the way, giving legal advice, just relating where philosophy and the law meet and argue. You'll find, when it comes to law, that a tidbit of philosophy I heard related by a law teacher holds (he'd use it whenever students would question any law's self-sufficiency): "This always holds...except for the exceptions." And new exceptions are made every day. I'm just relating information gained...but I'll put it up against a lawyer's cant and credo anyday. Frankly, I'd say go for it, just use the material. Fripp, though he's aloof and lofty, isn't inhumane and I think he'd appreciate the compliment. Certainly, he'd have no grounds for complaint as against his own thefts (and any potential argument re: lapsed copyrighting and public domain would have no weight philosophically), but, most importantly, if you're going to be an artist: get used to it. Without cannibalism, there is no art. All artists constantly crib or outright steal from other artists, until they get to the point of having "absorbed their influences" (otherwise called 'stealing') so well that they can fly on their own. There is no other way to create art. Depending on how well you choose your sources, you may become either a master like Fripp or a dink like Warhol. It's already obvious where your choices are leading you. Trust your intuition, take what you need. If you feel a bit of remorse, just curry good karma by uttering a small thanks to the creators you use as your models. -marc- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:16:20 -0400 From: Micrael at aol dot com Subject: The Musical Box tour in the UK starts this week The magical Genesis tribute band, The Musical Box from Montreal, is touring the UK starting Sunday night. A This is the bandas first tour outside North America, and it is an absolute MUST-SEE if you are a fan of Gabriel-era Genesis. A The Musical Box re-creates original Genesis tours with incredible detail, both visually and sonically, and has developed a following of tremendously loyal fans who travel from around the world to see them perform. A But The Musical Box is way beyond tribute a" this is time travel! After a limited tour of Quebec and Ontario with the Lamb show last year, The Musical Box is back with the Selling England tour. A Denis Gagne, who performs as Peter Gabriel, has perfected Peteras mannerisms and vocal styles to the point where one can easily believe that the audience has been transported back to 1974. A His stories are repeated as Peter presented them, with identical inflections and gestures, and every costume and visual special effect have been painstakingly recreated. A The band are incredible musicians who faithfully duplicate the original material without the technical problems that plagued the elaborate Genesis shows in the a70as. A Words cannot describe the amazing experience of seeing The Musical Box. A This is a truly mesmerizing concert! If you missed Peter with Genesis this is your best (and perhaps final) chance to re-live the Genesis experience. A If you were fortunate to see Peter with Genesis, then you have a sense of how amazing this Musical Box show is. A I guarantee that you will not regret bringing your friends who also loved classic Genesis to see The Musical Box in the following halls: May 26 in Bristol - Colston Halls May 27 in Wolverhampton - Civic Hall May 28 in Newcastle - City Hall May 29 in Sheffield - City Hall May 30 in Manchester - Apollo May 31 in Nottingham - Royal Centrel June 1 in London - Royal Albert Hall Good tickets remain for most shows. A I am among many, many fans in the US who travel a fair distance to see The Musical Box perform in Canada. A I regret that I cannot travel from the states to see The Musical Box re-create the amazing Selling England show in the same halls where Genesis performed with Peter, with many of the same fans who knew enough in 1973 to see Genesis at their best. A Rumors persist that some original members of Genesis will attend some shows. Check out the Musical Box website at http://www.themusicalbox.net/ A where bits of Supper's Ready are available in QuickTime format. A Or join the Musical Box internet digest at http://groups.yahoo.com/, where a simple registration is required, to read the glowing reviews of past shows. I hope you go. Mike np: A Brian Eno A aNerve Neta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:37:20 -0300 From: Pablo Farago Subject: Craft Tunning? Hi ETers! I just want to know if Mr. Fripp plays with CGDAEG tunning in KC's Discipline album, because i read he started to use it since '83, the album was recorded in '81 but Robert's chords sounds very "crafty"... Best wishes from the south! -- Saludos Pablo. -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:50:10 -0700 From: "Danny Stamper" Subject: Top 5 videos that desparately need to be reissued on DVD! 5. Robert Fripp and the League of Crafty Guitarists- "Careful with that Axe". 4. Robert Fripp String Quintet-"Live in Japan" 3. King Crimson-"The Noise; Live in Frejus France 1982" 2. King Crimson-"Three of a Perfect Pair; Live in Japan 1984" 1. King Crimson-"Live in Japan" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 02:40:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Lorias Subject: Re: Brian May To Steve Rewa: Yes, I was talking of Queen's Brian May. He released some solo albums in the 90's, and his current venture is Queen's "We Will Rock You" Musical. His solo albums have some vibes from Queen, of course, but are much heavier. For example, that "Cyborg" song from his album "Another World" sounds very heavy even now! It's not King Crimson or anything like it, but it's definitely worth a listen. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 08:11:25 -0400 From: "Michael" Subject: Re: Deception Of The Thrush Hi. I was just wondering if anybody knows what is being said by Trey's "talker" on The Deception of the Thrush. It's a question that's been gnawing at me for a while. I can make out some of it (i.e. "Come into the shadow" and "The spring rain/Winter kept us warm"), but most of the lines escape me. Thank you. -jimmybobLW >From the version on Disc Two (track 6) of Heavy Construction: "And drank coffee," "The burial of the dead," "with spring rain. Winter kept us warm," "in the colonnade, And went on," "What are the roots that clutch," "Come in under the shadow." All of the above are from "The Waste Land," first part: "The Burial Of The Dead," (1922) by T.S. Eliot. I. THE BURIAL OF THE DEAD APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain. Winter kept us warm, covering 5 Earth in forgetful snow, feeding A little life with dried tubers. Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade, And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten, 10 And drank coffee, and talked for an hour. Bin gar keine Russin, stamm' aus Litauen, echt deutsch. And when we were children, staying at the archduke's, My cousin's, he took me out on a sled, And I was frightened. He said, Marie, 15 Marie, hold on tight. And down we went. In the mountains, there you feel free. I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter. What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow Out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, 20 You cannot say, or guess, for you know only A heap of broken images, where the sun beats, And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, And the dry stone no sound of water. Only There is shadow under this red rock, 25 (Come in under the shadow of this red rock), And I will show you something different from either Your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust. (I don't know if you'll be able to post all of that) Michael J. Ventura michaeljventura at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 14:16:10 -0400 From: Miguel Farah Subject: Re: one thousand years >Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 23:13:54 -0400 >From: "Bill Sallak" >Subject: one thousand years > >hey all, > >just signed up to get ET-- love KC, love the news, love it all. finished >fawning. > >anyone know where to get a copy of trey's solo release "one thousand years"? >DGM has been sold out for some time, and needless to say my local record >shops don't have it. thanks for any help forthcoming. all the best. I saw a copy in a local shop last week. Be warned, since this is an import, it's a bit expensive. If you can't find any other copy, let me know. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 14:44:28 EDT From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: Odds and ends Hi, Folks -- Re: the Eliot sample on "Deception," I do believe that is in fact the poet's voice. If you ever get a chance, listen to Eliot reading the entirety of "Waste Land"; the performance runs something like thirty minutes, but is manifestly worth the time. Absolutely one of the most important achievements in poetry of the last century, tho Eliot, not surprisingly considering his famous conversion to the Church of England and to royalism, subsequently dismissed the poem as "rhythmical grumbling." That's as may be, but yet this poem "grumbles" gorgeously, and frighteningly. My wife and I saw Earthworks the other night at Magic Bag in Ferndale, and I must say that the addition of Tim Garland is already working very well. I love Clahar's sound and that breathtaking precision, but Garland's quite interesting. Despite some nagging equipment troubles, Bruford was of course brilliant; this was my first chance to see the "tympani-style" drum set in person, so when I first studied it, well, it blew my circuits. Watching him play, though, drove home the point he made in the liner notes for *Footloose in NYC,* that this "[makes] it all but impossible to play those old cliches." It also became quite clear that the direction Bruford is taking as a musician and leader is categorically divergent from Fripp's, which is frankly an exciting thing. Bruford is sometimes referred to as "the British Blakey,"both appropriate and rather fascinating. Bruford's clear intent is to promote the worth of British musicians, and when you consider how few British jazz players ever played the States with any regularity, it makes sense. How I wish I could've seen Elton Dean, Mark Charig, Tippett, Evans, et al, from the seventies on. If only US promoters weren't so hesitant to bring these world-class players to the States. (In '88 I found myself in England, a marvelous trip during which I got to see Tippett twice; no one who reads ET needs me to say this, but he was astonishing) Bruford did a meet-and-greet after the show; someone asked him why he wasn't playing the Indianapolis Jazz Festival, and Bruford's answer indicated that he felt the promoters weren't terribly interested in British jazz, priveliging US musicians instead, for reasons of cost and because, I'm afraid, many of these promoters neither know nor care much what's happening outside the shores of America. BTW, Bruford's cordiality and kindness are of course well known, but I'll vouch for these attributes as well. I'd met him briefly years ago in Pittsburgh after an Earthworks show, and he happened to remember that. It was sweet of him. I should also mention that the set, which included lots of new material, much of it Garland's and marvelous, also included -- get this -- a version of "Beelzebub." Looking forward to the Zoom Club CD, "low-fi" and all -- John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 14:09:53 -0500 From: Lee Gray Subject: Re: 1969 live > > but if they're "merely" great performances, but not *substantially* > > different, I don't feel the urge to buy lots of other live releases by > > them. > > first, what aare you saying, that 1969 did do different things? i havent > heard ALL the live material from any one incarnation of the band, but for > each era the sets are all very similar.. to a point where it really does No - the opposite. I was saying the reason I probably wouldn't buy more live material by KC before 1973 was because they did *not* really do much improvisation, even if the performances are good. I re-listened to Epitaph after posting my message, and I would now say that if DGM released a better quality concert from 1969, I would get it, but then no more. Having said that, I *do* appreciate owning Epitaph. > im not sure now if i should spend another large sum > of money on The Great Deciever.. i have it on tape.. but its just the > improvs and everything, its really great. But its true, the sets dont > differ that much, each band, especially the 73-74 band didnt have much > material to work with. I was again saying the opposite with the 73/4 (and 90's+) band. The sets usually include improvs, and even if the other titles are the same, to my ear there's usually enough difference to make the purchase worthwhile. I'd say The Great Deciever is still worth owning. I bought it years ago and am now buying the KCCC releases, after having the same initial hesitation (thanks to great reviews here). > i think its all worth it. > not so much from the 80s, but im still willing to hear them all. I love the 80's band too, but wish they had done improvs. Since I own Absent Lovers, I just haven't felt an urge to buy club releases of that era. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:19:42 -0400 From: "Eric / Susan Young" Subject: Essential Tools Hi ET'ers. I am getting curious about all the somewhat recent Tool talk. I have none at all, nor do I know anything about the band. Would anybody out there want to contact me directly and please tell me more about them? Your opinions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Open mindedly , E Young ''Reality leaves alot to the imagination'' - J. Lennon ''Imagination leaves alot to the reality'' - E. Young ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:58:40 +0100 From: "Bruce Nicholson" Subject: Lost Fripp title Dear all, I hope someone can help with a track by robert fripp i am trying to track down, but unfortunately i know very little of its origin. hopefully someone out there can help. Many years ago i heard an interview with robert fripp on bbc radio 1 (circa 1985).at the conclusion of the interview a piece of music was played on which fripp had produced / played on. over the music (almost flute like) was a spoken dialogue who apparently was some indian shaman. i cannot remember what the dialogue was but i think it lasted about 2 minutes. this is really very little information to go, but i would be really grateful if anyone can help me. many thanks in advance. Bruce Nicholson ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #981 ********************************