Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #978 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 978 Tuesday, 21 May 2002 Today's Topics: Re... "TCoL" and other Songs Live on Level Five Re: What's a touch guitar/Warr guitar anyway Regarding King and their disciples Tool Re: Double Trio live songs... Re: Trey Gunn's Posting[s?] to ET? Re: 69 IS FINE Pray for a 2nd KC Trib' Level 5 questions Tool in Concert On the subject of the magikc of Tool and King Crimson Small good labels, continued Re: King Crimson and H.P. Lovecraft. KC music for student film; Warr guitar; Robert gear Brian May and Fracture Re: USA & Earthbound ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:05:11 -0500 From: "Nadim S. Haque" Subject: Re... "TCoL" and other Songs Live on Level Five I am of Ryan's opinion about Level Five's rendition of "TCoL". I haven't heard any other live versions of this song (which, by the way, I really liked from the moment I bought the "TCoL" album while the others had to grow on me...) but can understand Adrian's problems with it. Somewhere I read an interview with him from the time around "TCoL's" release, and he said that playing all these odd interlocking guitar parts while singing random words, each of which corresponded to a different note played and with some notes having several words associated with them, might be a bit of a strain on him. So, while the live version must have been a great feat for him (trying to concentrate on two very challenging tasks at once) and indeed has all four band members playing top notch music, I still prefer the studio version with its rather overproduced sound. I recently bought my very own remastered copy of "ItWoP" and upon hearing "The Devil's Triangle" was immediately reminded of "Dangerous Curves". They still sound different, but the feeling is the same, as if "DC" were a radically updated version. Anyone else feel the same way? I love both pieces to death by now. ;) Also, does anybody have an idea of what the synthesized voice in the intro of "Deception of the Thrush" says? I can understand "I could not speak and my eyes failed," but that's about it. Please, help! Nadim S. Haque sliced|suitcase Fly Out Reiseladen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:58:23 -0500 From: "Brett Needham" Subject: Re: What's a touch guitar/Warr guitar anyway In the last ET Nik Smith posted the following questions about Warr guitars: >What is it? A Warr guitar is like a Stick in that the pitch range of a bass and a guitar are present on the same instrument; also the instrument is played by hammering on the frets usually left hand bass, right hand guitar (hands crossed method). There are separate outputs for the bass and guitar strings so they can be processed separately. Unlike a Stick there is a large, wooden body and quite a bit more string tension. >What do they actually sound like? Obviously it is all over TCOL and Heavy Construction. If you are having trouble figuring out what Trey's parts are, I recommend getting the DejaVrooom DVD, Playing Vrooom Vroom and selecting Trey's angle. Not only does the camera linger on Trey, but he's up in the mix as well. >Anyone have any isolated sounds of either of them, or a certain point in a song when you can REALLY hear it. Try downloading some MP3s from the Warr guitar site. http://www.warrguitars.com Brett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:53:30 EDT From: Chetkindb at aol dot com Subject: Regarding King and their disciples Tool Unfortunately the pairing carries with it some substantial compromises like the situation at the Wiltern Theatre in 2001. The mild mannered and conservatively tamed and professional good sportsmanship of the King was in fact very good taste. They kept the energy level down to a minimum so as not to disrupt and over shadow the current spokesmen for the Greater Lost Angeles region. King could have easily blown them off the stage, however being an opening act suppose King turned a new leaf, became arrogant and thrived the taste of blood. This would have been comparable to pairing Return To Forever with Kenny G. The incident in San Diego on the 2001 tour was witnessed by a friend of mine. Some young woman stood up and yelled out "you suck" during King Crimson's set. This is not only immature, moronic and an uneducated brainless gesture, it is also untolerable and unexcuseable. Granted the woman probably does not have a clue as to the education and impact that King has had on TOOL and Metallica, just to name a few of the mass of generated musical heroes carrying the muscal flag for the future. This is one good reason why Fripp does not book shows in San Diego anymore. People need to appreciate and COMPREHEND music. I enjoy TOOL, not that they are my fave choice band but the demand for tickets particulary in their home turf disrupts the confidence that we can see King Crimson in an intimate setting play for keeps, all for a mere $40 face value which is steadily rising beyond reach, no thanx to the help and reputation of the Rolling Stones the Eagles and Sir Paul. Bottom line is TOOL are modern day hard rock icons, Metallica is gone and punk is more affluent than crime and lost originality since time can remember especially in Southern California. I forked out $100 to see the Wltern show in 2001 and neither TOOL or KING played anywheres near long enough. Not to mention the undercover regime busting ticket scalpers outside. Wiltern is tiny and the limited amount of dates just adds to the hysteria. I was far more satisfied with the Level 5 tour. I bought a ticket at face value and sat halfway back on the floor. I paid $100 for the Wiltern and touched the back wall in the balcony (not that there is a bad seat in the house) and people around me were very disruptful and wouldn't shut up and kept attracting flashlight ushers. People can be disrepectful, immature and idiotic. This arguement is not questioning TOOL's importance but rather King Crimson's place when the rock and roll banner is waved by 3rd generation fans who apparently don't see past their parents influence. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Double Trio live songs... > I was looking at some setlists from 1995 and 96 and noticed that the > band played Waiting Man and The Sheltering Sky at a number of shows. > I'm thinking how cool that must have been, but I also wonder why those > songs aren't on any compilations or anything out there. How were the > double trio's versions of these songs? The Sheltering Sky performed at the Greek Theater in Berkeley was one of the most sublime and transformative musical experiences of my entire life. My all-time favorite performance of that piece had long been the 1982 show at the same venue -- how thrilled was I to see it released as a KCCC! (... and to hear it will be re-released with better sound. I admit that I still prefer to listen to my by now ancient audience recording of the show -- something irreplaceable about the vibe of the crowd comes through in that recording. The electricity is utterly palpable in it.) I'd never imagined that I'd ever be able to see that music myself. I was simply ecstatic when I heard they'd been performing the Talking Drum, and probably fell over when I spotted Sheltering Sky on a setlist or two. And then there I was, sitting on the floor of the Greek under an expansive sky, Moon resting in the Eucalyptus, and Burford Bollocks begins tapping on his blocks.... David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:50:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: Re: Trey Gunn's Posting[s?] to ET? In ET #976 david craig asked: > Trey Gunn has posted to ET on at least one occasion that I recall, > possibly more. Can anyone recall in which digest issue that post or > postings appeared?. Even a clue what search string to try at > would be great; I'm not really willing to plow > through the hits on "Trey Gunn". Brilliant suggestions welcome. I ought to write something to let people do this on the web site, but here's a good list of candidates to be going on with: Issue Article 158 9 284 1 287 13 294 30 304 22 504 1 593 1 632 1 802 10 Which you can craft into URLs like http://et.stok.co.uk/articles/802-10.html Hope this helps, Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | GPG PGP Key 1024D/059913DA mike at exegenix dot com | Fingerprint 0570 71CD 6790 7C28 3D60 http://www.exegenix.com/ | 75D2 9EC4 C1C0 0599 13DA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:30:29 -0500 From: Lee Gray Subject: Re: 69 IS FINE "Eric Heinitz" said: > I am pleased to see folk helping one another make selections from the > newly de-subscripted KCCC, but I found myself thinking, don't any of these > young pups like the 1969 King Crimson? [...] > I urge attentive > listeners to recall that the Epitaph box might serve as a foundation for > listenting to all the rest of the live King Crimson catalog. I'll chime in since I'm doing lots of the asking! Yes, I love 1969 KC and I bought the 4 vol Epitaph box from DGM quite a while back. Unfortunately I wasn't extremely impressed with the sound quality (well, mainly vols 3 & 4) and honestly didn't expect much from other issues from that era just because of the times. Mainly though, it seems the bands other than the Larks'/Starless/Red and 90's/recent incarnations just didn't do enough *different* stuff on stage. I now have and enjoy live samples from each era, but if they're "merely" great performances, but not *substantially* different, I don't feel the urge to buy lots of other live releases by them. I recently got Live at Summit Studios, and although I think it's a fine performance, it wasn't enough to inspire me to buy more by that band (although when I've bought everything else, I may do that anyway!). Lee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:30:25 -0700 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Pray for a 2nd KC Trib' Re: Ken Brown >First off, it was I (KBrown at us dot imshealth dot com) who send the post about >Buckyball and not thoward at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. Oops! Sorry about the confusion; the average issue of ET is so profuse with posts that it's rather easy to cross up data and names. >>That's true, but I still doubt many knew of this label. >Which might be true Marc, but it does seem a bit presumptuous of you to >decide because you have not heard of a label no one else as. Presumption was neither intended nor assumed: I'd asked a number of prog listener friends and acquaintances, people with a way-above-average collection and knowledge, if they'd ever heard of the label (e-communication is SO convenient for quick checks), and none had. It seemed, then, not too imprecipitate to speak as I did. However, I sympathize with your irritation that it SEEMED somewhat denigrative in tone; however, the truth is that it wasn't, being merely a fact, as far as I could determine. >Like when you, Marc pointing me to Nels Cline "Silencer" cd. Hopefully, you got ahold of it. In my estimation, it ranks amongst the best for "guitar releases" (records obviously based fully in the guitar as the central instrument); in reviewing it, I placed it as somewhat a correlate to past landmark releases, such as John McLaughlin's "Devotion". Here's an interesting anecdote about Cline (and conveniently ties back into ET themata): years ago, I had gone to a SoCal bar to interview John Goodsall (Brand X was headlining at a very small venue). I found that a 'Nels Cline Band' was playing under them. I'd known of brother Alex, from both "fame" and his esoteric records, but was not familiar with Nels. When I entered the bar, I couldn't believe the Crimsony music blasting out from the 3-man ensemble. It was incredibly well done, powerful, visceral, and complex. Nels was tearing the fretboard down and the bassist, Bob Mair, was berserk, playing like a madman and manipulating his effects pedals like they were synthesizers, something I'd never seen before or since. That said, I would, though, advise caution in buying Nels' output - he's all over the map and more than a couple Cline CD's are quite disappointing. His participation in rock releases, such as Bloc, are especially repugnant. I've never seen him capitalize on his Crimsony tendencies, but would like to (and would especially like to lay hold of a bootleg recording of that night - in case anyone might have a chance to locate such a boot: he was playing at Al's Bar). >No, I do not consider Magna Carta to be of higher quality, the reverse >actually (sorry to Dan @ magna carta). While I have sampled many MC >released and enjoyed a few, the overall theme of the label is not a type of >music I enjoy. (more metally approach to progrock). Actually, an inspissation of the two ("progmetal"). I like the label quite a bit but find it to lack an integral focus. In fact, despite that, I suspect had MC released the KC tribute that Pyramid put out ("Schizoid Dimension"), it would have been a MUCH better product. On the other hand, there's ALWAYS room for more than one KC trib (are ya listenin', Magna Carta?), what with the rich and prolific catalogue. Nice talking to you, Ken. -marc- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 02:22:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Man In Space Subject: Level 5 questions > Who is speaking at the beginning of "Dangerous Curves?" Pat often samples on the fly whatever he hears, he's got the sp202 to do that with. So it is Ade, first time live, second time sampled. The beginning of 'Virtuous Circle' is Robert's GR33 : first a dx piano with some delay, and later a violin from the same machine. I must say I much prefer the version on KCCC 19. I think the L5 version is pretty much noodling, while the 19 version goes as Trey put it 'somewhere beautiful'. It's one of my fave Crimmoments ever : first a laidback old school Fripp solo, which leads to a Soundscape perfectly supported by Ade and Pat's percussion and Trey's bass. The other songs on L5 have made a significant development compared to the 19 versions, but both releases are my fave Crim releases so far. Can't wait for more! Regarding the Warr-guitar : the ultimate moment must be the third piece of DOTT, where Trey plays a stunning solo each time. For the rest, check the ProjeKcts : if it's not Robert, it's Trey. Jan http://users.pandora.be/maninspace http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/396/man_in_space.html http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/396/man_in_space.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:21:11 -0500 From: Emory dot Anderson at tellabs dot com Subject: Tool in Concert Well, my brothers (who are Jazz musicians) dragged me out to Madison Square Garden last year to see Tool, and despite the horrific sound in the venue, it was quite an excellent performance. But even if one doesn't actually like the music of Tool, there are a bunch of things goin' for goin' to go see em: 1) No friggin theatrics...no "big hair", no explosion machine, no poses. (Well, I should qualify that...the lead singer was wearing nothing but underwear, but he was on a platform in the back, and I actually came to believe that he was most comfortable like that). The bassist, guitarist, and drummer were all about the music: little movement, and clearly focused on their playing. 2) Great audience. This suprised me, and it was almost worth the price of admission to see 10 thousand people or whatever actually LISTENING to what this band was playing. During one song, I looked around to see all faces silent and focused on the band. That is truly an odd sight. 3) Great performance: powerful, muscular music that was in a wierd way kinda spiritual and sensitive as well. It's easy to misunderstand this band, and easy not to hear past the darkness. 4) Pre-concert clips of ProjectX and Fripp Soundscaping with Tool--wish I had THAT on a collector's club CD. Look...how bad can Tool be if they actually had the balls to have King Crimson open for them? You have to be VERY secure about yourself and your band to even think about doing this! As we left my bother asked me a serious question, which from him implies great respect for this band: "Tell me Emory. Why is this band popular?" We could only conclude it was the music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:34:46 -0500 From: "rev. Dragonfly" Subject: On the subject of the magikc of Tool and King Crimson Seeing King Crimson and Tool back to back is almost like the changing of the guard from old to new. It alows one to see the true evolution of music dating as far back as the late 60's to now and then Insperational becomes the inspired when the lights dim back and Tool comes out and blows the crowd away. It leaves you with the feeling that it all came back around full circle. It truely is a beautiful thing. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:17:45 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: Small good labels, continued Hello to all thirsty-eared people, Following on from the discussion about "small intelligent unit" record labels providing stimulation for the Crim fan, I'd like to add House Of Stairs to the growing list that now includes Magna Carta, dIN, Buckyball and Burning Shed. I am, at this moment, listening to Foe's engaging and complex "They Have Their Uses... Gooses" on the free House Of Stairs promo EP and wishing I had a crowd of ET-ers in the room with me to discuss it with. House Of Stairs has recently emerged from the combined London math-rock and "pronk" scene, one of the most healthy and fertile parts of the city's musical underground. It's an artist-owned label set up by members of Ursa and the recently-defunct Monsoon Bassoon and Geiger Counter, intended to release "complex, unusual music that is rich in intricate detail, and devoted to constant change and invention". They're in the process of assembling a compilation album comprising previously-unreleased material by British, American and European musicians including Sweep the Leg Johnny, American Heritage, The Monsoon Bassoon, Geiger Counter, Cheval De Frise, Desmo Tabs, Defeat The Young, Foe, Miss Helsinki, Knife World, Mirror Man More, Stars in Battledress, Art Of Burning Water and Ursa. All of these are (or were) bands that have survive(d) and thrive(d) on word of mouth, and on winning an audience through inclusivity and curiosity (hello Crimson). The EP sampler features a complex, intriguing and ever-morphing workout by Foe (a mixture of Crim metal, Henry Cow/Ruins Rock-In-Opposition and Don Caballero-style Chicago math-rock), plus a rather hairier and more ferocious track by Ursa (with similar influences but closer to Shellac or Nirvana in its heaviness) and a wistful whole-tone psychedelic-folk song by Stars In Battledress (full of harmoniums and with a melody like a ladder being slowly tied in a knot). Robert would grin delightedly at it all, I'm sure. I'm busily writing a review of the EP for my "Misfit City" e-zine - as if you couldn't tell! - but thought I should share my thoughts with ET as they emerged. Anyone interested in the sound of this EP sampler can get themselves a free copy (stocks permitting) if they e-mail info at houseofstairs dot co dot uk and ask for one. Or you can check out the http://www.houseofstairs.co.uk website and put yourself on the mailing list. Just spreading the good virus! ta ta, Dann Chinn http://www.collective.co.uk/misfitcity ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 15:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: Re: King Crimson and H.P. Lovecraft. "R. Jackson" wrote: >I'm in preproduction on a student film. We're going >to be shooting in June I think the obvious choice is the beggining of "Providence" from "Red", with those uncanny violins. Notice that Providence was the place where Joward Phillips Lovecraft was born (as I suppose you already know). BTW, I'm interested on that release... Edgar Kausel Chile, South America ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 23:19:09 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: KC music for student film; Warr guitar; Robert gear -Of "Requiem," "Nuages," and "Industry," I'd say "Nuages" would best fit the bill for that scene, although perhaps it's a bit synthy and modern for Lovecraft. Have you considered using Frippertronics/Soundscapes material? Much of itt definitely conveys that sense of searching, wandering, meloncholy... -A Warr Guitar is a Chapman Stick with a body. A Chapman Stick is a 10-12-stringed instrument that is played by tapping the strings against the fretboard, rather than picking or strumming near the bridge. Trey Gunn has played both, and I think the best example of a Warr sound is either his funky auto-wah work on "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream," or as somebody else mentioned, the pastoral solo at the end of "Deception of the Thrush." -I'm pretty sure Robert plays a Fernandes guitar with an internal sustainer system that lets him hold notes forever, as he's known to do. As for effects, I can see at least 3 Eventide Harmonizer processors released before the turn of the millenium. I'm looking at the shot of Robert from Level 5, by the way. I also know that he uses a GR-30 guitar synthesizer (and perhaps GR-1 and -70) to make his guitar sound like a piano, orchestra, laser beam, etc.! For Soundscapes, he has a pair of TC Electronics 2290 Dynamic Delay units, one of them used for spacey echo effects and the other for the actual looping of sound. I believe he also has a Gibson/Echoplex Digital Pro for the same purpose, perhaps as a backup. Whatever his guitar goes through, it hasn't changed drastically in sound since 1993, so I'm guessing he still uses a Roland GP-100 for distortion and stuff. I think he used a TC Electronics Fireworx processor at one point, too. I realize that one could just go on guita! r geek.com and check the Robert Fripp listing, but I was trying to see how much I could recite from memory...checking...damn! Forgot the Digitech Whammy... Cheerio, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:48:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Lorias Subject: Brian May and Fracture Yesterday, I listened to Brian May's song "Cyborg", and the riff sounded very much like the riff from "Fracture". Brian May was going Robert Fripp or what? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:39:25 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: USA & Earthbound > I must agree with the guy in ET976 who remarked that USA was a poor > album. All I can say, is -- I'm sorry. For my part, I *adore* this record, and find the years-long tease surrounding its re-release to be nothing short of sadistic. I think I'm sufficiently scarred, though, to be beyond believing any further claims of its imminent arrival. Side two of that lp has hooked more of my friends on King Crimson than any other crimso record save Discipline. That is, perhaps, karmically balanced by the crippling mental injuries inflicted upon the occupants of a certain darkened college dorm room -- rather a while ago, I hasten to add -- when a characteristically taciturn unbearably endearing Bruce was flipping through my record collection, and, being fond of what King Crimson he'd heard (Discipline-Beat-Three of a Perfect pair), flipped to USA, popped it on, the needle somehow landing near the end of the B side. (Did I mention the mushrooms?) David Craig ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #978 ********************************