E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 965 Monday April 8, 2002 Today's Topics: guitar-chords ? SniKcerlist ONE TIME TAB, Everything is a Musical Instrument People 9/8 time signature Turning the Tables on One's Self tricK of the turn(table) turntable as a musical instrument / Lazy Poker Blues RED cover?/Guitar Craft/TLEV & Crafties/Can KC do like FZ did? Is there any sites or people that could send me some Post or Pre-KC Jamie Muir songs? Post for "Elephant Talk" In The Court of King Crimson Discipline down...? Will King Crimson, or anyone Crimson-related be touring in the summer? club 19 thela Mr. Banjo ? Project X - check it out. ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is temporarily being produced using Cheetah PRO Mailing Systems (c) Black Cat Software Factory (info at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 10:37:37 From: rocos at planet dot nl (Roger Corvers) Subject: guitar-chords ? Hi there, In ET #964 Carter Broom asked where to find KC's ''one time'' chords. I found them on www.elepant-talk.com/tabs Peace, Roger ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 00:17:57 From: rone at ennui dot org (figmentality) Subject: SniKcerlist > Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 12:08:19 > From: Jon_Buckley at notes dot ntrs dot com (Jon Buckley) > > Somehow, the SniKcerlist got cut off. Here it is in its entirety. You forgot "The King Crimson Barber Shop". rone ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 08:44:09 From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: ONE TIME TAB, Everything is a Musical Instrument In a message dated 3/30/02 12:49:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > Can anyone tell me where I can find the guitar chords for "One Time"? http://members.aol.com/markjx/onetime.htm Also, on the topic of 'anything can be an instrument', a good example of a piano turned into an orchestra is Stephen Scott's Bowed Piano Ensemble; 10 people dressed in black, tooling around a piano with it's lid removed and all sorts of exciters placed inside. He's a professor at a local college (Colorado College) but tours with his group internationally. I just went to a performance of his newest piece, which is about Lancelot, and finally sunk in how this ensemble shares quite a few attributes with Guitar Craft. Check him out at http://www.newalbion.com/artists/scotts/ I neither work for, nor represent New Albion records or Stephen Scott. Just a huge fan and admirer. Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 14:56:29 From: carlos_r_alves at hotmail dot com (Carlos Eduardo Rodrigues Alves) Subject: People >Has anyone ever figured out how to play People? (...) >Jaques Torrent I can't give you any insights, but maybe listening to the "original" version of it, as a Belew's solo tune, will be helpful. It is included in the "Coming Attractions" album, and is much simpler. Ade tells a little story about this song in the album's notes. Basically, he offered it to the band during the first rehearsals of the Double Trio, and everyone added his own contributions. Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 09:24:52 From: ekausel at yahoo dot com (Edgar Kausel) Subject: 9/8 time signature Peter Schaut wrote: > There have been a few posts lately referring to the 9/8 time signature > as an odd time signature. It may be odd in the numerical sense, in terms > of an odd number of beats per measure as opposed to an even number of > beats, but it is not an unusual time signature. It is > > very similar to a waltz which is in 3/4. As a matter of fact, it is > counted out the same way (1-2-3) with the dotted quarter note getting > the beat. To me, it's still an odd time signature. I just can't imagine playing "Apocalypse in 9/8" or "In the rapids" (both from Genesis) the way you propose to count it (1-2-3). Very difficult. Oh, never mind. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 12:26:57 From: jchasin at nyc dot rr dot com (Josh Chasin) Subject: Turning the Tables on One's Self This could be a response to any number of recent posts, but I'll make it a responde to my fellow Deadhead, ejyuhas at eclipse dot net (Edward Yuhas, Jr.), who asked, in ET #964, in discussing the unfortunate pairing of DJ logic with Ratdog: > As for objects being used as musical instruments...doesn't this take > away from the fact that our boys Robert, Trey, Adrian, Pat, Bruf, etc. > have been playing and perfecting their techniques since youth?? And what > about the luthiers, instrument makers, Mark Warr, etc. How about Linda > Manzer, builder of the 42 string Pikasso guitar for Pat Metheny? These > people are craftmen/women and would be insulted if everything that could > be used to make music were classified as a "musical instrument". I don't > know...call me a traditionalist, but this is how I feel. While it pains me to take this position, absolutely DESPISING as I do any music that uses turntables as instruments, I cannot help but be reminded that Crim uses things like guitar pedals, electric amplification, synthetic drums, and so on. All of these things, at one time or another, were an at least equally egregious affront to traditional musicians and luthiers and such. I do not LIKE the turntable as instrument. I also do not like rap, hip hop, or any of their trendy offshoots (I was suckered by hype into buying Moby's "Play" when it came out; I couldn't tear the thing out of my cd player fast enough.) But that's my own subjective tastes; YOU may like them, It's cool, I also cannot abide opera. Or, for that matter, Bowie. But, as the free speech champion who says, "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it!" I find myself forced to place the turntable in a proper historical context, and to conclude that it is, indeed, a musical instrument when used as such. Then to ask, please, that you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 09:51:37 From: mlucas at calpoly dot edu (Michael Lucas) Subject: tricK of the turn(table) Crimson Tide (appologies to 'bama and procter and gamble) - I would liKe to suggest that if one Kan use a guitar synthesizer, reKord tape loops, use a pedal for echo, reverb and other effeKts, have BB use "percussives" without prejudice (although I am troubled by a possible elec/accoustic schism), then it would seem the phenomena of sound produced is the Kritical issue vs. what per se is used to produce the sound phenomena. Also, given the desire to bring in some aspect of spontenaity, such as any "live" performance entails, from the original idea of a classical Kadenza to jazz improvization, KC seems to be right in the miKs of struKture and aKcident, even if where the aKcident occurs is struKtured. With both ideas, the turntable would seem to be a perfectly logiKal possibility. On one hand I am moved to say KC should have figured out this thing long ago and prefigured it's hip-hop use, and thus have moved past it's use. On the other hand, they seem to have no problem with teKnological Kronology, using miKses of aKoustic, and varieties of eleKtriK/digital means. I am not waiting for the inKlusion of a turntable, but would not dismiss it if it appeared in the soniK field, especially if it KicKed. respeKtfully submitted, San Luis Louis [ OK - this was the last one on the subject PLEASE! -- Mike ] ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 16:23:25 From: proginoskes at email dot msn dot com (Proginoskes) Subject: turntable as a musical instrument / Lazy Poker Blues Thanks, Peter! Now maybe this thread can die a proper death ... (Not likely though ...) On a completely unrelated topic, I bought Status Quo's _Ma Kelly's Greasy Spoon_ (1970), and the song "Lazy Poker Blues" has the laughing man at the end of "Easy Money". Coincidence? Not necessarily; bands from the late 60s often took sounds from the BBC sound database. (The bells from Pink Floyd's "Fat Old Sun" and the Kinks's "Big Black Smoke" is an example.) However, there is a common subject matter of "poker". An interesting coincidence. -- Christopher "HeKcman" ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 15:31:52 From: dose2000 at msn dot com (LAVERNE MUNARI) Subject: RED cover?/Guitar Craft/TLEV & Crafties/Can KC do like FZ did? *WARNING....LONG POST AHEAD!* Hello again. I'm sure you all missed my LONG posts, especially the folks i've pissed off! So here I am again after a months absence from using my pc. I posted a coupla months back that the supergroup(old term I know)NIACIN, would be releasing a new cd in Feb. that would include an 8min cover of RED & a steamrolling cover of Jan Hammer's great "Blue Wind" on the "Time Crunch" cd. Well, i've been reading thru a months worth of posts & no-one has mentioned if they even heard it..Good or Bad? So? Lets hear from ya. IMHO, this cd is a 9 on a 10 scale. It contains 9 other great tunes from super funky fusion thru very progressive groove music. About a month ago, Marc Tucker wrote a nice peice on what he felt the Guitar Craft experience was all about(without having attended)as well as how education in the U.S.(probably same in many other countries)is handled, or NOT handled, as I found myself in aggreement w/all he had to say. I won't go into every point. BTW he was criticized heavily, because after all, "how can one know what is happening at GC unless they attend" seemed to be the focal point.(His retort was dead on as well)Well, w/o rambling on, I TOO feel I know the important "overall" teaching method-ideals-self or group motivational vibe that a GREAT teacher(s)can provide, or at least put one into the proper mindset, even tho I MYSELF have never been to GC!(My excuse is lame in that i'm a drummer, but I doubt one would even have to be a musician to leave Guitar Craft without being somewhat enlightened!)Anyway, I feel this way after speaking w/folks whom have attended, & 1 young lady summed it up pretty well by relating that her 1 on 1 15 min session/lesson(guitar NOT in hand)with Mr. Fripp was so intense she'll never forget it! Not because it was Fripp, rather as she said, she never had a human being LISTEN to her that intently before! As Marc pointed out, we need a helluva' lot more teachers who know how to reach & excite students into learning. Screw it, i'd just be repeating what he said only in possibly a less poetic manner. I'll end just by saying we have way too many who teach by rote/memorization, in a 9 to 5 manner. Frank Zappa said it best: "If you want a good education in this country, drop out of school, & go to the library!" In other words, motivate yourself the information is out there. Ok. With all the "live" KC material now available(& surely more in the vaults!)I would love to hear that Mr. Fripp is about to embark on something FZ invented w/"live" music, as wisely HE recorded EVERYTHING. That would be, the editing of "live" peices of music from 1 era of KC or FZ, say the 70's, for the 1st half of a song, to another era(same peice of music of course)of KC/FZ from the 80's or 90's!(No overdubs)I guarantee this would create an amazing buzz amoungst those who read this newsletter, or those who don't but love KC. Frank did this often, but most prominent would be the incredible marriages he made on the wonderful, 12 cd 6 box set of, "You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore"!!(Or YCDTOSA) I understand Mr. Fripp would have less material than FZ did, because KC did'nt repeat as many songs thru 30+ years of different personell, as did FZ during all his years & changing line up's, but there ARE enough songs that the band(s)performed, and I feel these would be most interesting! Anyone who has'nt heard what i'm talking about owes it to themselves to check out this 1 of a kind approach! Now it's possible KC has done a few seconds here & there, kind of this way but using the same era bandmates. So maybe Adrian will somehow hear of this suggestion, as I know he's well aware he's on quite a # of FZ's compositions done this intelligent way. This would be just great to hear! Well, Tony Levin & his mates will be comming here again(I believe it was just mid-way thru last year)along w/the California Crafties, or whatever you deem to call them, on April 7th & I look forward to another great(KC related)performance! They will be in the intimate confines of St. Louis' own "BlueBerry Hill", which I do believe our own(love him or hate him)Chuck Berry still owns a peice of. I'll post after the event. A couple of quick notes on things good or bad i've seen recently in ET. First, thanks Steve Arnold for pointing out that Ruth Underwood was/is 1 of the great percussionists in progressive music. I saw Ruth many times w/FZ and what energy & fun she brought to any performance! I'd love to hear she is recording again!(?)Steve mentioned her in the same sentence w/the great Jamie Muir which brings me to;... please, whomever it was that recently posted they came across some video of Muir performing w/KC kindly e-mail me directly, as I am in need of any Jamie Muir/KC performance footage, & can provide KC video such as the 1981 "Friday's" 2 song tv performance(Yep I still have it after 21 yrs!)and to Andy Gower, or anyone that can provide me w/the Beat Club video part of "Lark's Tounge Pt II" i'd be willing to trade, as I can only find the Pal/German videotape of this which I can't use. Basically, I need ANY video footage of KC other than the "3 of A Perfect Pair" or "The Noise"!I have lots of video-audio goodies. There HAS to be more provocative footage of the band caught "live" than those 2 official releases, does'nt there? I mean those are ok but..... If anyone has the time or inclination, or is even interested...I DO NOT belong to the KCCC, & cannot afford to join as I just upgraded computer wise & bought a nice cd writer. I am however interested in just what exactly has been released since the Club's inception, what each disc contains, the location & at least yr any "live" material was performed, up to the most recent release. I'd like to hear your opinion of sound quality, & what you think of material on disc. I'm an old fart, so I'd love the earliest KC thru the RED era KC to obtain 1st. I'll send whomever(if anyone)provides me w/a list such as this a video, or burn you a cd as soon as I figure out how it works!(Just got it yesterday) As far as odd meters go, check out Vol. 6 disc 2 of FZ's "YCDTOSA" & a tune aptly titled, "Thirteen" as it's in 13/8, & Frankie even counts it out for you at beg. of song. It features guest L Shankar on marvelous elect. violin, & once it begins to percolate it's amazing as drummer extraordnaire, Vinnie Colaiuta is shakin' the stage, but makes it sound simple simon! Also on same disc are some "Joe's Garage" tunes that people like the writers from Modern Drummer feel is some of the most difficult to perform odd time signatures to be found, like "Catholic Girls"-"Alien Orifice" which are a delite to hear! "Joe's Garage" is dismissed by some because of the ADULT humor, & Frank's scathing barrage on "The Church of Scientology" & it's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, but to me it's all great music/fun stuff! In fact I 1st began seeing FZ's bands perform in late 60's(saw him more times than I can recall)& his band ALWAYS had more fun(along w/the audience)of ANY band i've ever seen! Check it out. I guess that's my month's worth. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help w/the video or other material. Steven PS: I just found my notes & it was poster, Bob Bennett who had the Muir video footage so Bob, drop me a line if you would! For Dan Gallagher in ET #962, as far as the EVIL KING CRIMSON, I was at the outdoor HOARDE fest in 95(paid $50 to see 1 band!)and while KC were performing "Red", some KC virgin, who was so obviously hallucinating, was screaming at the top of his lungs, "That's DEVIL music, DEVIL music!", before he was led away by a very embarassed friend. After the song Adrian made a sarcastic comment about the majority of the crowd! ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 2002 21:33:49 From: nickname99 at rogers dot com (Nik Smith) Subject: Is there any sites or people that could send me some Post or Pre-KC Jamie Muir songs? As in stuff he did before or after his Crimson days. I can't find any of it using programs like Audiogalaxy or Morpheus and I hear it is highly recommended...Also, if anyone has any of "Alexis"'s music (the post KC Obz Burrell band) and could "hook me up" with that, that would be greatly appreciated. I don't think you can buy those CDs anymore either (if you ever could at one point). Thanks, Nik ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:14 From: mGoral at DevTrans dot ch (Michael Goral) Subject: Post for "Elephant Talk" too late for the DGM gustbook ... (1) "If this posting did not originate from you simply ignore this email and it will *not* be added to the DGM Guestbook. If you have concerns you can respond to this email. Date: 31-Mar-2002 12:10 GMT Name: Michael Goral Text of posting: the economic system of value taking over anything to make money from works against any valid links to any things one can have (after having paid the bills) all the real powers are there to protect this mechanism that goes just for growth in terms of value (US-Dollar, Euro, ...) therefore DGM ideology is idealism to value driven reality (if you can't break value realism, you are left sympathizing with idealism that tries to put value-free links to things first) the design of DGM in terms of the "Sometimes" samplers did not work out in terms of value nevertheless its idealism connected me to wonderful music: Jacob Heringman, Bill Nelson, Matt Seattle, Mr. McFall's Chamber, Andrew Keeling ... the last gem for me in this otherwise-unknown-to-me series "a temple in the clouds" (only the Rosenbergs failed to turn me on) and bootleg.tv was a DGM-related example of dot-com-value-focussing-madness: I love to listen to music which is accompanying my life to a large degree, I don't go for the films and the videos, etc. as watching them would kill my time listening to music can amplify my time being connected to other - sometimes real - things, virtual concerts are just poor "ersatz" for the real thing (last wonderful real experience: Earthworks live in Dornbirn, Austria - a couple of months ago) so DGM scales back ..., I do hope it stays alive and positioned against value (which is almost impossible) ... "listening to Club #19"" (2) additional remark - I like to propose that all the former DGM-satellite-acts that were chosen by Robert Fripp for whatever reason once and dropped from DGM now announce their new offerings in terms of CDs etc. here at Elephant Talk Ciao, Michael Goral mGoral at DevTrans dot ch ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Apr 2002 17:00:30 From: tpaul dot burke at virgin dot net (Paul Burke) Subject: In The Court of King Crimson Sorry, old news, but anyone who hasn't checked out Sid Smith's book, In = The Court of King Crimson (HelterSkelter 2001), really should do so. Not only is it well researched, it also appears to come from a very balanced perspective. Well done Mr Smith. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 3 Apr 2002 23:30:29 From: phill dot lister at btinternet dot com (phill lister) Subject: Discipline down...? I've just used a Favourite to get to the DGM diaries and the whole thing's disappeared! Disbanded! Dismantled! Disappointed! Fair enough, if that's what needs to be done. Good luck to them. Wonder what's happening next...? Wonder if it's an April Fool! ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Apr 2002 19:22:39 From: nickname99 at rogers dot com (Nik Smith) Subject: Will King Crimson, or anyone Crimson-related be touring in the summer? ....Will King Crimson, or anyone Crimson-related be touring in the summer? -Nik ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 06 Apr 2002 09:06:28 From: spearman at hotmail dot com (Spear man) Subject: club 19 thela > Thela Hun Ginjeet...it's got the tape background... Oh man, Thela on club 19 sounds so tired to me--it really should be shelved. I never thought I'd grow tired of this track, but damn--it's happened. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Apr 2002 15:54:58 From: Block_Dog at Prodigy dot Net (Block Dog) Subject: Mr. Banjo ? Hey Folks, Check out the link below and listen to "Mr. Banjo" ( Crim related, I promise ) It is a hoot. (and a pretty decent record too ) http://johncowan.axismediagroupllc.com:81/music.html If this doesn't work try: http://www.johncowan.com and click on "TheMusic" block ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Apr 2002 22:34:29 From: unstrungone at yahoo dot com (david kirkdorffer) Subject: Project X - check it out. Hey folks. Long time since I've poked my nose into the hallowed halls of Talk. I've been reading the Turntable thread. Children of the Turntable Revolution, check out the Project X disc -- spin it around your loud-speakers, and see if you can get jiggy with it. As a companion to the Con' of Light CD, it shines a light bright on the way coolest shit I've heard from these ernest musicians. It shakes some contemporary ass. And that's so pleasing to say about a band of musical adventurists. It doesn't sound forced, and it grooves deep baby, deep. Ya hear? David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #965 ********************************