E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 964 Saturday March 30, 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: The Jackboots Cometh Club 19 Instruments.. Of PAIN! Or not... ...everything in the world is a musical instrument Greg Howard and turntables 9/8 time signature SniKcerlist in it's entirety Red for mobile phones Logic and Turntables/musical instruments Mistaken Identity People I don't get the new Crimson music Turntable as musical instrument Yearning for something new, even if it is turntables Too many Eeeee's Geeks Julie Tippetts tony levin's pieces of the sun Guitar chords? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is temporarily being produced using Cheetah PRO Mailing Systems (c) Black Cat Software Factory (info at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 19:25:40 From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: NEWS: The Jackboots Cometh OK all - enough about turntables and turntablists already! Mike Dickson Elephant Talk Moderator, Administration and Distribution ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 15:09:29 From: camerondevlin at hotmail dot com (Cameron Devlin) Subject: Club 19 Hi, Got the new club release this morning (FINALLY!). I think John T Moshier pretty much summed it up in the last digest, but I wish to add my own opinions. Oh and John - it's Nashville, TN, not Memphis :). I got the Level Five EP a while back, desperate for some new Crimson material. I was unimpressed with everything but Dangerous Curves (which is the definition of evil on CLUB 19). Level Five was just a blatant rip off of all the themes of ConstruKction Of Light (album) and Virtuous Circle was just pointless noodling. Even the two previously released tracks were poor - Deception of the Thrush had lost all it's meaning by being shortened to just over 4 minutes I believe and ConstruKction of Light... I don't know why, but it didn't work. Also, this incarnation of King Crimson had already released a live album containing a million and one mistakes, something that the Double Trio could never do even if they tried to mess up. So I decided that King Crimson were just no longer a live band. I am an asshole. This is amazing. Simply amazing. Level Five - a track that I had previously been only hearing as a band that has run out of ideas slapping some things together - is back to what I'm sure they intended it to become... a Crimson classic. Yeah, there are ideas from other songs in there, but now it's referencing instead of ripping. I think what's done it is the drumming. On the EP, when the new riff comes in, Pat drops out entirely. That sucked all the rhythm that had been built up right out again. Here, he's got a crazy groove thing driving over the top. Just friKcing cool. ConstruKction of Light is classic. Even ProzaKc Blues is great (actually, I liked it from when the album came out, but it never really jumped out at me like now). On to EleKtriK. These Capital K names are just being done to spite all of us who were begging them to stop, I'm sure. But it's a cool track. I was disappointed not to hear the vocals that are meant to be over it, but there's probably a good reason they aren't (not finished?), although how he's going to sing over this eludes me. I guess that'll just be another exercise in singing with guitar from Mr. Adrian Belew though. It's not a highlight for me, due to yet more referencing to ConstruKction of Light. The guitar interplay is sweet and all, but it's been done before, alarmingly with the same notes. I'd liken this to a more in-your-face version of Dangerous Curves... keeps moving up. Oh, and the GR-30 is starting to sound REAAAAALLY dated :). Thela Hun Ginjeet...it's got the tape background. It sounds most like the original version than it's ever been played before (right down to some Bruford electronic drum sounds that Mastelotto seems to have programmed). I didn't think they could do this one with a new rhythm section, but again, I was wrong. Nice dropout in the attack moment of the tape. Chaos ensues. I think this might be my favourite version of this track. There, I've said it. Eeek. Next is Virtuous Circle, which on Level Five, for me, just wanders. Now it's a chill-out drum'n'bass massive mix, innit. Bo selector, for my English companions. It's definately because the GR-30 isn't the soloing instrument. Now it's good. Burn the GR-30 Adrian, get a GR-33. LARKS TONGUES IN ASPIC PART 1 REFERENCE! THANK YOU PAT! Beauty. I'm beginning to bore myself. Basically I'm just saying the same thing over and over again. This is AMAZING. Join the collectors club just for this. And, yes, they stomp over Red. ~Cameron ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 02:52:06 From: psiogen at hotpop dot com (Sylvan) Subject: Instruments.. Of PAIN! Or not... Christopher Heckman wrote: > ... Which asks the question: how far can the definition of a "musical > instrument" be taken? If everything in the world is a musical instrument > (hit it with a stick and listen for sound!), then the term "musical > instrument" is meaningless. Every object has the *potential* to be a musical instrument, but most objects are never used in that way. I'd say something is an instrument only if it is used to intentionally create music, or if it was explicitly designed to create music. Sylvan http://www.godcomic.net "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 07:57:48 From: vdorje at ev1 dot net (Craig) Subject: ...everything in the world is a musical instrument >If everything in the world is a musical instrument >(hit it with a stick and listen for sound!), then the term "musical >instrument" is meaningless. Hardly,....... Check this out..... (yummy) 8^) http://www.gemueseorchester.org/anfang_e.htm the first viennese vegetable orchestra music with taste... the first viennese vegetable orchestra consists exclusively of vegetable-based instruments, although where necessary, additional kitchen utensils such as knives or mixers are employed. this creates an autonomous and totally novel type of sound which cannot be achieved with conventional musical instruments. marinated sound ideas and canned listening habits beg for expansion! this music is a playful departure from the conventional way of looking at vegetables as mere means to still an appetite. the instruments are subsequently made into a soup so that the audience can then enjoy them a second time... AND........... >Anyone who thinks a turntable can not be used to amazing effect as an >instrument needs to checkout either of the live Praxis albums. There are always exceptions................ 8^) Craig ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 10:31:12 From: RadioactiveToy71 at netzero dot net (RadioactiveToy71) Subject: Greg Howard and turntables In ET #963, Matt D posts: Mr. Howard is indeed quite the Stick Man. I was fortunate enough to score copies of his "Stick Figures" and "Shapes" CDs a few years back, and it's quite enjoyable listening. A further reccommendation would be Code Magenta--Greg Howard on Stick, Leroi Moore (he of the DMB) on sax, and Dawn Thompson on vocals and percussion. Late night, quiet come-down music, good stuff if you can find it. And Jordan Clifford: For a long time, I continually denounced a turntable as a musical instrument, and to a certain extent, I still do. I look at turntabling as something like breakdancing from the 80's--fun to watch, hard to do correctly, and embarassing if you screw it up. I have seen live spinning comps where I live, and there's no doubt in my mind that what these guys, some of whom are barely out of high school, are doing is talented and requires a lot of skill and good hand/eye coordination. I can appreciate a DJ or a spinner who knows what he's doing, when to do it, and when to lay off. Sometimes it reminds me of the shredding phase we went through in the 80's, a whole lot of wheedling on the guitar with no soul. There ARE some great spinners out there, to be sure, but most of the time we don't get to hear them. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 12:21:10 From: PeterSchaut at aol dot com Subject: 9/8 time signature Greetings, There have been a few posts lately referring to the 9/8 time signature as an odd time signature. It may be odd in the numerical sense, in terms of an odd number of beats per measure as opposed to an even number of beats, but it is not an unusual time signature. It is very similar to a waltz which is in 3/4. As a matter of fact, it is counted out the same way (1-2-3) with the dotted quarter note getting the beat. The major difference is in the feel of a piece in 9/8 time, think of it as 3/4 time with lots of eighth note triplets. Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring by J. S. Bach is a good example of this time signature. VROOM, VROOM! Peter ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 2002 12:08:19 From: Jon_Buckley at notes dot ntrs dot com (Jon Buckley) Subject: SniKcerlist in it's entirety Somehow, the SniKcerlist got cut off. Here it is in it's entirety. SniKcerlist Cat Food ? Notable for the sheer audacity of following-up such a "heavy," serious first album with this gem. What a "hoot." Ladies of the Road ? Also distinguishable for it's setting as much as for it's content. I mean, really? here's a bunch of guys on the "make" singing this little ditty before, surely, attempting to "score" with same. What huevos! Elephant Talk ? Funny, pithy, and appropriately assisted by sound effects. Pure Crimson? sophisticated, and a real charmer. ProzaKc Blues ? A riot in the guise of an alter-ego bluesman. Also, highly self-reflective? so you have humor coupled with the exact element that made Discipline the disc more than just music? but Art. Art is good? funny Art is difficult to pull off well. The World Is My Oyster Soup Kitchen Floor Wax Museum ? Great word play game. Pure entertainment. Easy Money ? Oh, sure? it's one thing to write funny lyric, it's another altogether to play an instrument "funny." Funny cowbell? You got it! Apt sound effects? yup that's here too. Asides? oh yes. Probably the gold standard of the entire list. Alternate provocative lyric for live audiences. Simply, you can't score higher. And from the Oh-So-Serious Big F, we have: Preface & Postscript from Exposure ? The ability to poke fun at oneself is priceless. You Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette ? Great lyrics. Greater title. I May Not Have Had Enough of Me But I've Had Enough Of You ? Ditto. Thrang Thrang Gozinblux ? Strong on title, once again. Eye Needles ? Yup. High points for the title alone. Funny ditty. Under Heavy Manners ? Funny delivery, funny voice, funny lyrics. Strange Girls ? This is sly, knowing, sexy and fun. Why this band only made one CD is completely beyond me, really. Old Ears ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 2002 17:06:01 From: nightwatcher98 at hotmail dot com (George Khouroshvili) Subject: Red for mobile phones Hi, If anyone is interested, visit the following page: http://gustow.by.ru/mobilemusic/red.shtml There are several transcriptions of RED for various mobile phones, though I experienced some troubles with Ericsson version. Enjoy, George http://www.agharta.net/providence.html ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 2002 13:31:04 From: ejyuhas at eclipse dot net (Edward Yuhas, Jr.) Subject: Logic and Turntables/musical instruments Well, I'll come out of lurk mode to jump into the fray.... I recently saw Ratdog, and to my surprise AND dismay, DJ Logic was performing with them. Thank God he was "lost in the mix" to my ears and I didn't really notice him making a sound. He looked out of place on stage with a band of veterans such as Weir and Wasserman, who were playing good old-fashioned instruments. They even had a sax player and re-created some old Dead tunes with a jazzy feel to them, but I just don't feel that the turntable enhanced this in any way. Just my opinion. Oh, by the way...I like Phish and the other bands they've inspired, but I cannot get into MMW. As for objects being used as musical instruments...doesn't this take away from the fact that our boys Robert, Trey, Adrian, Pat, Bruf, etc. have been playing and perfecting their techniques since youth?? And what about the luthiers, instrument makers, Mark Warr, etc. How about Linda Manzer, builder of the 42 string Pikasso guitar for Pat Metheny? These people are craftmen/women and would be insulted if everything that could be used to make music were classified as a "musical instrument". I don't know...call me a traditionalist, but this is how I feel. When I listen to releases like Level5 and the new Club 19, and I hear the beauty of Trey's solos, Fripp's soundscapes and how great the band sounds as a whole, I think I would cry if they introduced a turntable "player" into the mix. Best regards and Catfood from a basement-dwelling progfan... Ed in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 2002 09:29:50 From: rone at ennui dot org (figmentality) Subject: Mistaken Identity > From: "Schopf" > > Do you think it's possible that Robert Fripp himself tried to stop the > "Worst KC song" thread with the (not so?) funny ITCOTCK bashing post? At > least his self description (well respected musician with more talent than > all of us together) would be correct! LOL!!! Or could it be one of > the other Crimsos? What do you think? Ali Janab ... Ade Belew. I think that'd be the best bet. :) rone ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 2002 18:48:01 From: ewok_lij at localnet dot com Subject: People Has anyone ever figured out how to play People? That song is insanne and I am at a loss as how the masters have managed. If anyone any insight I would be delighted to hear it. Thanks Jaques Torrent ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 27 Mar 2002 18:47:23 From: mikemclaughli41 at hotmail dot com (mike mclaughlin) Subject: I don't get the new Crimson music I must be missing something because it all sounds alike to me the new Crimson tunes (on Level 5 and the new KCCC release #19) are not awful but they are all repetitions on a basic structure except Virtuous Circle which is causing me some distress, I just don't see it's appeal (am I missing the point?), the older material is gaining a new muscle and power and the stuff from TCOL is gaining new clarity and benefitting from a while on the touring circuit in all I do like the new release, I just need more convincing that there's something in the newer material. Mike. "Failiure to communicate leads to excessive speech" Dark Matter by Small Talk ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 27 Mar 2002 17:21:21 From: PeterSchaut at aol dot com Subject: Turntable as musical instrument Greetings! Lately there's been a bit of a debate going on as to whether or not a turntable is an instrument, so I thought I would add to the dialogue. A turntable can be used as a musical instrument, but by definition it is not a musical instrument. If it were, then everything could be called a musical instrument. Virtually anything you can think of, including a bridge, the side of a barn, those tall structures that are used to suspend high voltage wires, etc., has at one time or another been used as a musical instrument. There was a concerto written for a yellow VW bug, with the VW bug as the solo instrument. Anvils are commonly used in orchestral music, yet they were designed to be used for shaping metal. Many of you are probably familiar with the band Einst=FCrtzende Neubauten, and those of you who are, know that they use drills, cement mixers, jack hammers, and all sorts of other odd devices in their music. In this context these devices are used as musical instruments, but they were not designed as such. A true musical instrument is a device which was designed for the purpose of making music; e.g., a 55 gallon steel drum is a 55 gal. steel drum until you cut the bottom off and tune it, then it becomes a musical instrument. As is the case with many things in life, sometimes there is a fine line between what is and what isn't. It's like defining art, everyone will never agree on it. I hope that this has been of some help. VROOM, VROOM! Peter PS Never call someone stupid because your opinion, which may be subjective, is different from yours! ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 27 Mar 2002 23:19:53 From: selina_silvas at hotmail dot com (Selina Silvas) Subject: Yearning for something new, even if it is turntables The discussion on King Crimson using turntables is an interesting one to me. As I appreciate experimentation I would be very interested in what King Crimson could do with such a device (hard to say wether it is an instrument or not hehe). My mind and my ears would welcome anything creative King Crimson could come up with. And when we talk about them getting a hip-hop sound, I mean this is King Crimson, I am sure they could do some amazing stuff with a turntable, and something that would not be hip-hop. But even if it were to have a hip-hop element, in the words of Adrian Belew "get jiggy with it!..whooo!" I flew all the way to Florida from Texas to see them, and after a live show from them, something I thought I would never see, I absolutely fell in love with this band (I then proceeded to paint the cover of In the Court of the Crimson King on my purse, I guess I am crazy or something hehe). So after getting into King Crimson (I suppose I have only been into them for about 2 years, I am only 21 so give me a break!) I find a lot of other music less fulfilling. So in saying that I am explaining the subject in my email. I have an urge that only King Crimson could fulfill. Selina Silvas www.selinasilvas.com http://kestrel.tamucc.edu/~sas06087/ ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 2002 14:55:02 From: erikv at vargaresearch dot com (Erik Varga) Subject: Too many Eeeee's Has anyone noticed that the Fripp solo from Level 5 is featured on the Nashville Rehearsal track: Too Many Eeeee's ? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 2002 17:17:50 From: illoman at att dot net (Michael Bennett) Subject: Geeks Here in America, we have a televised game show called "Beat the Geeks", where contestants try to guess answers to pop trivia questions, and get more correct answers than the Geeks, experts at various categories of trivia. last week, the Music Geek introduced himself this way; "I know the name of every bass player who has ever played with King Crimson, and if you piss me off I'll start naming them!" I'm glad KC is still an active topic ... ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 29 Mar 2002 09:55:29 From: okeenan at railaccess dot com dot au (Keenan, Owen) Subject: Julie Tippetts Now here's a doozy... Where the hell can I find a complete discography for the brilliant Julie (wife of Keith) Tippetts (nee Driscoll, yes she does have an S on the end of her married name)? I've tried every search engine I know and nothing comes up with the goods. Any help can be directed to myself by private e-mail. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 29 Mar 2002 00:03:31 From: Doynuy at aol dot com Subject: tony levin's pieces of the sun geeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzz.............drop the turntable controversy (if there is one). better yet, check out tony levin's new cd...............a superb release ( couldn't believe modern drummer gave it a mere "7") jerry marotta sounds fantastic. The whole band sounds great, in fact, just pick this cd up...........a vast departure from Waters Of Eden. your pal, dog four ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 29 Mar 2002 16:49:09 From: cebroome at bellsouth dot net (Carter Broome) Subject: Guitar chords? Can anyone tell me where I can find the guitar chords for "One Time"? Thanks, Carter ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #964 ********************************