Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #959 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 959 Friday, 15 March 2002 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: 1 ticket tony levin gamh s.f. april 14th for sale "YOU GOTTA HAVE SOMETHING IN 4/4 TIME" Discipline in 5/4 Ali Janab = Robert Fripp? Re: King Crimson Official Live Releases... One more in 5/4 Crimson Video Turntables Guitar Craft introduction - Europe 2002 Review of possible interest to Crimfans Re: Wetton convention Re: REPOST: John Wetton Convention in July -- HELLOOOOOOOO?!!?!! Best/Worse Debate the state of music and KC Re: the "present moment" of #958 Some more examples of odd time signatures ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:54:07 From: "Spear man" Subject: GIG BIZ: 1 ticket tony levin gamh s.f. april 14th for sale Looks like I won't be able to go to the tony levin show at the great american music hall april 14th. I'll sell mine for $10--paypal preferred. Please send email to me offlist if interested. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:42:23 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: "YOU GOTTA HAVE SOMETHING IN 4/4 TIME" Writing credits to Hall and Fripp. Please note that 'time' doesn't really rhyme with 'rhymes'. As Alanis Morrisette might say, isn't it ironic? GORDON TAYLOR, No, it isn't; actually, it's Assonance. The numerous things mentioned in the AM song are not Irony, either, but they are dashed inconvenient & irritating! MX http://www.malcolmxerxes.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:06:21 -0500 From: Vincent E Daniel Subject: Discipline in 5/4 Greetings Crimnologists, On the subject of Discipline's odd meter, I have an excellent midi file of Discipline . The time sig. continually moves from 3/4 up thru 7/4 to and fro , according to the sequence. However I seem to recall BB in an interview saying that it was an enjoyable piece to play because it had a really neat time shift from 21/16 to 17/16 so maybe it's in 16ths rather than in 4ths. Just my two cents worth, Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:29:06 +0100 From: "Schopf" Subject: Ali Janab = Robert Fripp? Do you think it's possible that Robert Fripp himself tried to stop the "Worst KC song" thread with the (not so?) funny ITCOTCK bashing post? At least his self description (well respected musician with more talent than all of us together) would be correct! LOL!!! Or could it be one of the other Crimsos? What do you think? Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:02:44 -0400 From: "Miguel Farah F." Subject: Re: King Crimson Official Live Releases... >I'm wondering what other live (official) releases are worth getting? I've >gotten The Night Watch, and I have Epitaph in the mail. I really want to >get something with Muir in it, but I don't think such a thing exists. >What's on "The Great Deceiver"? Is that worth getting? Any help would be >appreciated. _The Great Deveicer_ has four live shows from the Wetton era. If your favorite crimso incarnation is the Wetton era, and you keep asking to the universe why on Earth did it put out ONLY three albums (LTIA, SABB and Red), and/or you refer to these three albums as the "Holy Trinity of Prog", then the _The Great Deceiver_ box set *IS* for you. Shell out the big bucks and purchase it. You will not regret it. As for the Ali Janab post: guys, I am extremely surprised at the amount of flames he's received. His post was such an obvious JOKE, for crying out loud! The humor was more subtle than, say my, "Springfield, WX" gig review, but still was clearly a joke. -- MIGUEL FARAH // miguel at nn dot cl #include // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel <*> "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things." - Doug Gwyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:59:47 +0100 From: Laurent Masse Subject: One more in 5/4 Most of The Howler is in 5/4, except for the intro (7/8) and the "no, no, no, not me" bit (15/8 - or is it 8/8 + 7/8?). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:30:58 -0500 From: "Robert Bennett" Subject: Crimson Video I recently got on hands on some video footage of King Crimson, circa 1973 (appears to be Larks' tongues era). They are playing live with Black Oak Arkansas as a warm-up band. The footage I have is Larks' Tongues in Apsic and Easy Money. My question is - does anyone know if the entire concert was filmed, and if so, are there any copies available?? Thanks, Bob Bennett bennyb at i2k dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:37:27 +0000 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Turntables I won't bother covering the Ali Janab thing's specifics, but noted several responses rather implying that a "turntablist" must at best be some sort of musical waster. Might be, but not necessarily so... At a Courtney Pine gig a few years ago promoting Modern Day Jazz Stories CP had a DJ on stage as part of the band, and he was soloing in a good jazz band and holding his own superbly, enough to get plenty of applause from his performance. CP made a point of saying how it really is just another instrument, just an unusual one in many contexts. A good DJ really *playing* t-ts can be a pleasure to hear and watch: I've seen it done. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:17:14 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie?= Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine Subject: Guitar Craft introduction - Europe 2002 Hi ETers, I'm thinking about attending the guitar craft introduction course in Alfeld, Germany, in July 2002. Before sending my application letter, I'd just like to know if there is somebody out there in France or around who would also be interested, and who would like to share a car from Paris. Thanks to answer privately, Myke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:24:44 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin Subject: Review of possible interest to Crimfans Reprinted from http://www.progweed.net/dap/gentle.html The third album from the Dark Aether Project, The Gentle Art of Firewalking, shows a maturation from their days as a studio project into a full fledged band. The addition of full time vocalist Jennifer Huff and Keyboardist Marty Saletta adds a more consistent feel to the already spacious sound of the group. The album alternates between burning instrumentals, dark soundscapes, and vocal pieces in a combination of the two. Tracks like "3rd Degree" take the more intense route, while "Embers" brings the album to gentle and atmospheric closing. The band's trademark spacey vibe is still present here, with lush keyboard backing a la Pink Floyd or Pulsar setting the stage for scorching Mahavishnu like leads, and the complex dexterity of Levin's parts on the Warr guitar. At times, the blistering instrumentals bring to mind a crunchier DFA, while Huff's soaring vocals provide a nice contrast to the heavier instrumental pieces. The band's previous similarity to the 80s lineup of King Crimson has been expanded to a much more original sound now, although elements of the precise instrumental interplay linger in pieces like "Shades". A definite step up from previous releases, The Gentle Art of Firewalking shows Dark Aether at their most focused, with some of their strongest compositions to date. - Mike Prete [March 2002] Sound samples from the CD are available at http://www.darkaether.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:11:02 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Re: Wetton convention : I am reposting this John Wetton Convention post since not a single soul : from the ET list even acknowledged onlist that this thing even existed, : or that a post was even made. Maybe everyone is still trying to come to terms with the fact that such a thing even exists. I'm used to the idea of conventions being held for things like Star Trek, the Beatles, etc. Pop cultural artifacts with widespread followings, not obscure musicians. Has Wetton considered the possibility of something a little more unusual... like a concert tour? I consider myself a big King Crimson fan -- of all eras -- but it's hard to imagine something less interesting to me (yet still barely Crim-related) than a convention devoted to one of their many singers from 30 years ago. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:16:02 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: REPOST: John Wetton Convention in July -- HELLOOOOOOOO?!!?!! [NOTE: The following post is sarcasm, and is meant only to be interpreted as such] Whoa, sorry for not responding Dude! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! There is a John Wetton convention in July! Is he going to sing "Heat of the Moment?" What's next, an Ian MacDonald convention in Green Bay, WI (he could do an acoustic version of "Cold as Ice" on the flute)? A Boz Burrell convention in Helena, Montana (variations on "Feel Like Makin' Love" for 6-string electric bass guitar)! The possibilities are endless! Sorry, but sometimes when the softball is lobbed up there, smartasses like me have to swing at it! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:09:35 -0600 From: "Charlie Yarwood" Subject: Best/Worse Debate Hi Everybody, I really enjoy reading ET. I feel like I gain a little insight every time I read the varied viewpoints, comments, critiques, etc. That, having been said, I can't help remembering a quote that seems relevant. I don't remember who it's attributed to, but ... "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." I am really awed by the depth of Crimson's products. I am a long-time and enthusiastic student of the science behind the art. However; when I listen, and when I perform, I don't want science getting in the way. I have to appreciate what Crim do because I realize the technical skill required. But, the main reason I like their music is: I like the way it feels. :-) I hope, for their sakes, that they have times when playing is just pure fun. You know what they say: All work and no play ... For sharpened focus, see: http://www.maui.net/~zen_gtr/ Charlie Yarwood Veteran Guitarist Memphis, TN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:37:05 +0000 From: "sun-loving ape" Subject: the state of music and KC I was just thinking yesterday about how in the early 80's underground music helped build up a solid foundation for non-mainstream thought and helped develop a culture through art, music, and literature. This happened because of the state of affairs--politically, commercially, and socially. It was a monkeywrench to the excess and Reagonomics train of thought. Back then though, there was some pop music that was intelligent and artistic(the talking heads). Not everything was marketed to people like it is now. Today, though, we have a similiar train of thought politically, socially, and definitely commercially(though different) that needs to be broken into. The difference is that those of us who have felt margianalized by all of this are now being sold products marketed to the margianalized. That makes its impact less. Great music and great art in general has been fractionalized from the mainstream; one only need look at a self-contained entity like MTV, which has tribute shows to itself, to see that the mainstream has become an industry-controlled institution that is all-exclusive. Great art has been scattered about worse than that damn ring in that Tolkien book. My point is that IMO the underground once again has to come together (the Internet is such a great tool for organizing and communicating to real people) for there to be the Great Antithesis to cookie cutter art. There is too much alienation culturally for anything serious to happen. Here's a great quote from Thurston Moore that I just read: "The fact is that it's been established that you can actually work and work well in the underground without having to deal with any kind of music-industry business as usual." Obviously so--look at THE MIGHTY CRIM/THE GREATER CRIM/KING CRIMSON/KC/(insert whatever descriptions you want to in here). They operate on a different plain economically and artistically than mainstream ethics would allow. And to see King Crimson touring with Tool, one of the only hopeful mainstream bands IMO, is great, but that next level must be acheived for it to have that much more of an impact. Artists need to band together at the next level(whatever that may be) for a great culture to come out of the current state of affairs. It's totally possible, though. Personally I don't want to just get up on stage, play my bass, "oh, there's an audience--hi", "hey, that was a good show, let's go home", and do that whole bit. I want to work with other artists and create The fans of KC and other art need to band together. Squabbling over the best guitarist or whatever is useless. I see so much energy in this forum and it'd be great if we could take it out further to others and collaborate and show people what great possibilities art has to offer. Maybe it's not musical, maybe it's painting or poetry, but this to me could be the current, not just the future. King Crimson have the ability and the loyal fan base to show what art and music can be. I think that they are really ready to explode musically and once they do, it is our responsibility to take it from there. Once again, if anyone in the Madison, Wi, area wants to talk further or do some art projects together, then please EMAIL ME! Jeramaya Albert: "Oh yeah? Well, I've had about enough of morons and halfwits, dolts, dunces, dullards, and dumbbells--and you chowderhead yokel, you blithering hayseed, you--you've had enough of me?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:45:27 +0000 From: "sun-loving ape" Subject: Re: the "present moment" of #958 PS...To Ryan Tassone, whlie I can't speak for other Crimson fans, I can personally say that I don't ever attempt to speak or type or even think like Robert Fripp. If I used one term that he uses then so what? It's just another term for King Crimson, which gets boring to type and read over and over. You're right though in that I guess I should have used my own description, being original in the process. As far as capitalizing words...well, first of all it's hard to convey sometimes our tone when we type things. Translation is often lost when I type to people because I have a very dry sense of humor. So how does one convey that, you know? Maybe the cake needs to be looked at and not the pretty frosting, eh? No personal slant that was. I digress...I do agree with you about the state of music... diatonic, rhythm, pulse, 3 chord strumming, etc... As far as Crimson completing an album that is cohesive and consistently good, like I said...I think that they are about to blow the roof off the mother very soon. I feel that they will make that incredible album with no uninteresting tracks. I feel it is soon. They seem invigorated(my own personal opinion of course). PSS...thanks for the vote of confidence Marc. I know of Chomsky and Biafra separately, of course, but did they work together? Feel free to email me privately about this if you want. Also, if you have time, what's Strata Institute? I love Miles... Jeramaya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:14:40 -0800 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: Some more examples of odd time signatures Well, there's an extended piece on Happy The Man's "Crafty Hands" in 13/8--the basic groove breaks down into alternating triplet & doublet figures, ie: 3-2-3-2-3. The Slip Jig in 9/8 (three groups of three) is one of the most ancient Irish folk-dance forms. A fine example is "The Butterfly" from the soundtrack of the film, "The Secret of Roan Inish." The Grateful Dead dabbled occasionally in odd sigs. "Playing In the Band" is in 10/4, "Estimated Prophet" is a REGGAE (!) in 7/4, and "The Eleven" is of course in 11/8. Brubeck's "Time Out" album (which includes "Take Five" and "Blue Rondo a la Turk") is devoted entirely to non-(Western)-standard time signatures. Indian classical music is among the more rhythmically complex styles in the world. The pieces are built upon "raga" (a scale and a set of rules for using it) and "tala" (an underlying rhythm pattern which can be endlessly shifted and varied), but remain harmonically static--one "drone" chord through the entire composition. Musicians spend the early years of their apprenticeship learning to "sing" the various tala--the "drummer talk" you hear when the tabla player goes "DOOM-diki-diki-doom-DOOM-da-da-taka-taka-taka" (or whatever) to "call" the time at the beginning of a performance. Some of the craziest, most exhilarating complex/compound rhythms I've ever heard are in East European music--and yes, people DO dance to them. Check out anything you can find by Ivo Papasov and the Bulgarian Wedding Band--& I dare you to try to count the beats per measure! Of course it's not just a matter of playing in an odd signature--it's what you DO with it. Most of the above-mentioned examples feature lead instruments playing syncopations, counter-rhythms and displacements over the basic groove, to achieve a sound that is complex but still maintains a natural sense of "flow." I think that's the real trick--to pleasantly surprise, rather than confuse, the listener, while still retaining some semblance of the familiar. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #959 ********************************