Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #958 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 958 Thursday, 14 March 2002 Today's Topics: 21st Century Schizoid Band REPOST: John Wetton Convention in July -- HELLOOOOOOOO?!!?!!?!!? Re: 21C Shitboy Band Mars, the bringer of MSG The "present moment" Re: to Dan, Andrew and Ali and one more in 5/4 Re: King Crimson Official Live Releases... / Can I purchase Odd Times/Meters Chomsky / Miles I got 'em all (30th Ann. jewelcase versions) Sharks' Lungs In Lemsip How Hits Are Made Re: Gordon's reply to 'Bad KC music?' Musician's inquiry Re: Least favorite Crimson song...of Fripp!! 5/4 Time Signatures, and an Unsung Hero of Jazz ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:32:53 -0500 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Band >From the What's Rattling Newsletter >From: MandVPow at cs dot com >Subject: Re: Canterbury 2002 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:58:10 EST Details of Canterbury 2002 can now be posted. Canterbury 2002 will happen 23/24/25 August-with camping. Event will start early on the Friday evening. Initially only full weekend passes available rather than day tickets so we can balance the camping requirements. There will be passouts for those that prefer to stay in alternative accomodation. Price will be #80 including camping - ticket price reflects restricted capacity and tight regulations. Children under 14 free. Further details wll be posted to the festival website shortly http://www.canterburyfestival.com Bands/acts confirmed so far include The Stranglers, Rick Wakeman, Pretty Things- The Damned, 21st Century Schizoid Band (Mike Giles, Peter Giles, Ian Macdonald, Mel Collins and Jacko Jakszyk) playing the music of King Crimson, Arthur Brown,Caravan, All About Eve, Kevin Ayres, Ozric Tentacles, Mostly Autumn, Man, Karnataka, Muffin Men, with three others to be confirmed including one major name. If you want to pre-register let me know by email and we will alert you once tickets are available. We expect there to be a fairly strong demand this year due to the addition of camping. Please reply to canterburysoundfestival at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:55:06 -0800 From: "Brian Kelley" Subject: REPOST: John Wetton Convention in July -- HELLOOOOOOOO?!!?!!?!!? I am reposting this John Wetton Convention post since not a single soul from the ET list even acknowledged onlist that this thing even existed, or that a post was even made. While everybody is talking about their worst KC songs (mine is and 5/4 signature crap, one of the greatest and most vital figures of Crimso-history is making a weekend performance in July. And a single bloody person can't even have the decency to reply to me personally, much less put a reply on ET. I'd be interested to know how many people would be into going. I'd like Mr. Wetton to get a great reception upon that special weekend from a bunch of fellow ET'ers. So how 'bout it?!! For more info, go to: www.johnwetton.co.uk Peace and Krimso, Brian REPOST: > Forgive me if this has already been stated here, but I found this news VERY > EXCITING!!!!! (And this being just less than a month AFTER Nearfest!!!) > Think another trip from good ol' GA will be in the works fer sure! ;) > Definitely need to bring my Sid Smith book, and other assorted goodies, too! > > > John Wetton Fan Convention - July 20 and 21, 2002 > Holiday Inn Conference Center, Lehigh Valley > I-78 & ROUTE 100 > Fogelsville, PA > > Check it out at: www.johnwetton.co.uk > > I mean, when was the last TIME he's ever stepped foot in the States?!!? > Inquiring Crimson-UK-Asia-heads wanna know!!! :) > > "While with my friends I passed that age > When people stomped on dirty floors > Before I trod the rock 'n' roll stage..." > > - Lament, S&BB 1974 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:55:24 -0800 From: "Brian Kelley" Subject: Re: 21C Shitboy Band Matt, That's a great title! Now you just need to come up with some lyrics. ;) Hey, lemme know if you need any help on that. I'm a master of parody, being a parody of my own self at that! :) Peace and Krimso, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: amit lissack Subject: Mars, the bringer of MSG If anyone is interested in 5/4 and The Planets, you can come stand outside of the Madison Square Garden box office here in NYC. Mars is on infinite loop along with "YMCA", "We are the champions" and "Everybody dance now" (no foolin'). By the way, the first two tunes on Tool's Lateralus are almost entirely in 5. In case anyone is still looking for examples. Amit Lissack www.mp3.com/AmitLissack http://home.earthlink.net/~amitlisk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:17:28 -0500 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: The "present moment" First of all, quite respectfully, I'm wondering why so many King Crimson fans try to act sorta like Fripp when they post to ET? Using his terminology (Present Moment, Greater Crim, etc.), flaming people like Ali Baba with comments like, "I find your world view appalling" or something, capitalizing random Words to give Them certain poetic Significance...it's very peculiar! Funny enough, I checked the Yes newsletter, called Notes From the Edge, and everybody on that list was super-esoteric like Jon Anderson. I just find that amusing...(c: Sure, I'll jump into the topic of today's music. There are several obvious factors that everybody mentions, like corporate control and an emphasis on image over talent. But I wonder if this applies to any style of music other than mainstream pop? When you think of it, the majority of pop artists remain in the limelight for scarcely more than a few years, and the rest of them either enjoy lasting success or they dive-bomb into "Now That's What I Call Music, 287th Edition." But even in the category of lasting success, there is constant copying and aping. Creed was mentioned, and please don't start a thread about them, but I think his voice is almost identical to many rock singers from the late 90's to now. Listen to the Verve Pipe hit "Freshmen"...I just can't tell the difference. The guy from Matchbox 20 has the same low drawl, too. There are others, many of them from current Nu-Metal bands whose names I never learned, but you get my point. Pretty much every Kid Rock so ng has exactly the same tempo (no, literally, I actually tested it). And Creed, again, likes to slip into that comfortable pace, which "Higher" and "Sacrifice" and "Arms Wide Open" all occupy. So, rhythmically, there isn't much going on in rock or pop that makes the charts. Melodically, most songs you hear on the radio, and pretty much all the songs that are on their parent albums, are diatonic. This means that every note or chord falls under the blanket of exactly one scale, with no deviations. You could probably play one bass note in the background, provided it's in that scale, and it would never sound dissonant or odd. Most Yes music is diatonic, as well as the Frippertronics/Soundscapes that aren't just whirling noises; think about it, if Fripp has to solo over the loops of sound he creates, it's much easier to do so over a background that stays in one key, rather than one that's always changing. Jazz is rarely diatonic for more than a minute, which is why Bill Bruford was so nonchalant about leaving Yes and joining Crimson, the latter's repertoire including jarring tritone riffs and atonal improvisations. Today, key changes just aren't done in pop music...correct me if this is an overstatement or generalization. But I have a pretty good ear, I guess, and I've yet to hear a Britney or Blink 182 song change from one set of chords to another, unless it's the typical whole-step modulation during the fadeout. But I'm just rambling now. I don't have an opinion about King Crimson's "present moment" as I'm writing this, to be totally honest. But I will say this: for all their adventurous musicality and vigor, they can't seem to craft an album that I would call coherent and consistently good. My top five favorite albums are from people like David Sylvian, UK (believe it or not) and Bill Frisell, which doesn't mean I like them better as artists, just that King Crimson was never about fully absorbing, naturally flowing pieces; it tries to stab at that convention. It makes for some exciting moments, but there's rarely a central theme or mood to tie it all together. Well, that's enough from me, right? Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:47:43 -0600 From: "Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Re: to Dan, Andrew and Ali and one more in 5/4 In ET #957, Ken Makowsky wrote: > In re: 5/4 - side 2 of Zep IV (ZOSO if you will) has a > tune in mostly 5/4 with acoustic guitar and hand > drums. It's pretty easy to count with. I wanna say > it's the second tune on the side or, I guess the 6th > tune on the CD. That would be "Four Sticks". > You're insistence on your musical prowess (and my > inability to find you on ANY music web-site I > know of) is stated in such a way that > I can't help thinking that it's all bluff. Just ran a Google search. No "Ali Janab". :-) Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:25:27 -0800 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Re: King Crimson Official Live Releases... / Can I purchase someone's copy of "T >From: "Nik Smith" >I'm wondering what other live (official) releases are worth getting? I've >gotten The Night Watch, and I have Epitaph in the mail. I really want to >get something with Muir in it, but I don't think such a thing exists. I'd recommend any of the frontline live releases like Absent Lovers (definitive '80s KC album), VROOOM VROOOM (power packed compilation of two shows + a bit more, wide variety of material and absolutely searing performances), Level Five (the new face of KC, a sign of very good things to come) & Heavy ConstruKction (not a totally satisfying release for me, but preferable to TCOL). >What's on "The Great Deceiver"? Is that worth getting? Any help would be >appreciated. The Great Deceiver is more of what you heard on the Night Watch, except the band improvises more. If you loved the Night Watch, and you've got some extra money around, I'd say "go for it!" >I don't want to join the KC Collector's club JUST to buy ONE Cd...so could >I >buy someone's copy off of them for a reasonable price? If you're really interested in checking out live KC, I'd say subscribe, and take 6 kickass releases that would cover a wide variety of live KC material. If you need some live Muir & more live KC, try this package: 1. The Beat Club, Bremen 1972 (with Muir) 2. Live in Mainz, Germany 1974 (a great disc of '70s KC) 3. Live at Summit Studios 1972 (great sound quality) 4. ProjeKct Four - Live in San Francisco, 1998 (my personal fav ProjeKct) 5. King Crimson - Live in Detroit, MI, 1971 (2 discs for the price of 1!) 6. Live at Moles Club, Bath, 1981 (crappy sound quality but energetic performances) It's really an advantage for late-coming KCCC club members because you get all your discs right away without waiting like the rest of us. Although I like receiving another KC dose every couple of months! Basically, there's a lot of good live KC releases out there right now, it's all down to which lineup you prefer. Good luck, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:32:02 -0500 From: Matt Endahl Subject: Odd Times/Meters If you want odd meters, it's hard to beat Don Ellis. His big band absolutely burned through all sorts of unwieldy meters, such as 11/8, 13/8, 19/4, 27/16, and 33/16. Unfortunately, not much of his material is available on CD. I've got a website about him here: http://www.geocities.com/mendali/index.html if you're interested. As for other jazz/rock bands who explored odd time signatures, definitely check out John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra, Horacee Arnold's albums (Tribe, Tales of the Exonerated Flea), and (for some heavier material) Herbie Hancock's Mwandishi band. That's all for now, Matt Endahl -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:50:06 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Chomsky / Miles Jeramaya: intelligent post. Punk, eh? Good, we need informed cross-views in here. You mentioned commerce: I imagine youre familiar with the Biafra/Chomsky riff? I found little to criticize in your message and am not going to take up readers time with agreeing with you just now. I hope to, in the future, lock horns on some subject, or expand on it. Dr. Howard: you must also be familiar with the knock-out Strata Institute. Osby annd Coleman are Miles only true current successors, in my opinion. Glad to read of another set of discerning ears. -marc- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:29:49 -0800 (PST) From: prognaut at hotmail dot com (Ron) Subject: I got 'em all (30th Ann. jewelcase versions) well after many months I finally got all the jewelcase versions of the the 30thAnn. remasters... the last one I got (today 3/13) Starless and Bible Black from a dealer in the Netherlands ... all the others were from various shops in the Santa Monica/ West LA area... I'm a very happy Crim-head now ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:15:42 +1100 From: "prof.Dawid" Subject: Sharks' Lungs In Lemsip Hi Have you already bought the newest KC release? I bought it yesterday and it consists of two CDs. The first CD includes: 1. Mark's Fangs In Ass Dick p.1 2. Banks' Plans In Drastic p.2 3. Jones F***s In Plastic p.3 4. Tanks' Guns Bombastic p.4 5. Nun's Pants Fantastic p.5 The second CD contains: 1. The Reduction Of Right 2. The Destruction Of Kite 3. The Abduction Of Knight 4. The Seduction Of Child 5. The Production Of Sprite 6. The Instruction Of Sleight There are also 3 bonus tracks: 1. The Walking Thumb 2. Cheezy Honey 3. Scarless & Tribal Plague The box is titled "Sharks' Lungs In Lemsip Vol. 1" so perhaps we can expect volume 2. Does anyone know something about vol. 2? Cheers Davy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:50:42 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: How Hits Are Made Everyone who gives a damn about music should at least skim this article. http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/03/13/indie_promotion/index.html?x ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:35:49 +1100 From: "Igor Avramovski Aleksandrov" Subject: Re: Gordon's reply to 'Bad KC music?' I'm not particularly concerned whether any particular individual likes or dislikes any of KCs music. I was just sharing my fascination with people who seem to over-value their own intellectual capacity and take their opinions too seriously, in a way that generates negative energy among potential fans of some or all of KCs music. Over the past few months I've read a lot of reviews and comments on KC music, on various sites. Not one album by KC has escaped 'disapproval' by some KC fan(s). However, for every KC album that's been rubbished, I've come across some highly demanding listener (usually fans of fusion and other progressive music, but also devoted music fans with a strong taste for diversity) who has unequivocally declared it a masterpiece. Now, by which criteria are we to judge whose 'assesment' is the most worthy/informed? For instance, we have A and B, both claiming to be long-time King Crimson fans, 'intelligent listeners,' 'respected musicians,' 'experts' .... A says: KCs 'best' albums are Lizard, Islands, Larks Tongues in Aspic, Starless And Bible Black, Discipline and Thrak. Their 'worst' are In The Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon, The ConstruKction of Light. The rest are a mixed bag. B says: KCs 'best' are In The Court of The Crimson King, In The Wake of Poseidon, Red, Discipline, Beat, Three of A Perfect Pair and The ConsruKction of Light. Their 'worst' are Lizard, Islands and Thrak. The rest are a mixed bag. On what objective ground could A or C claim that his/her 'assessment' is more credible than that of the other person. As long as they are talking about 'worst' and 'best,' rather than 'favourite' and 'least favourite,' or 'my style' and 'not my style,' they both have a credibility problem. They've both failed to recognise the futility and self-serving nature of their public debate. They've both failed to distinguish between taste and quality. They've both failed to recognise that all KC releases are good, because they are all held in high regard by either A or C, as well as many other music listeners who demand much more artistic depth and quality than that offered by the current rock/pop mainstream. Bands like KC are already tragic victims of a pathetic 'music' industry that is drowning most valuable art in a sea of 'products' designed to satisfy the lowest common denominator. The last thing KC needs is 'fans' who generate negative energy about any of its music (actually, all of their music turns out 'bad' if you amalgamate all of the varied opinions of self-righteous critics). With fans like that, who needs enemies? Perhaps it would be more appropriate for KC fans who value critical thinking to keep the topic of the relative merits of KC music in a more positive context. It is better to talk about 'favourite KC songs,' rather than 'best/worst,' and to explain what aspects draw us to some KC songs more than others. By the way, I am not one of those who always think that anything their favourite band touches must turn to gold. For instance, Queensryche (very different to Bowie and Eno) was my favourite band for years. Four of their albums (Promised Land, Empire, Operation Mindcrime and Rage for Order) are still in my personal top ten. Their last two albums, however, appear to me to be of a considerably lower standard. Many people enjoy those two albums, but most agree that they fall short of the other four. It just seems that Queensryche's creative energy started expiring and their quality standards dropped after Promised Land. However, that is something I cannot say about any point in KCs career, even if I am relatively new to KC and thus less biased in their favour. Finally, yes, everobody does have their bad days at the office. Everybody conspiring against the King should run and hide when I have mine. Cheers Igor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 05:05:21 From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: Musician's inquiry Hi! I'm Dan and I'm a drummer in a newly formed band, Sammy. I live in Brooklyn, Michigan, which is about 20 miles southeast of Jackson and approximately 30 miles west of Ann Arbor (I might be wrong on these figures). Anyway, my band is looking for a new bass player. We basically play rock'n'roll, straight off, and we throw in whatver sounds or feels good, maybe some jazz or blues or punk or heavy stuff or reggae or funk or ska. We have an endless list of influences and we love to get together and play-simply put, we know we can play and we have fun doing it and we don't worry too much about technique or theory, if it feels right we do it. We're looking to do some shows but at the moment we're just developing material. If anyone around the Ann Arbor or Jackson areas can play bass and boost the power of the rhythm section and would like to be in this band and just have fun with us, contact me off-list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:22:09 EST From: LabCSA at aol dot com Subject: Re: Least favorite Crimson song...of Fripp!! To all ET'ers, arguing about the "worst" KC song seems pointless...a bit like arguing about the "worst" sunrise ever, or some-such! I would be more interested in Fripp's thoughts about HIS least favorite KC song! I've read countless interviews by Fripp & even spoke with him after the first Discipline show in Chicago (Park West)...he was VERY proud of that band & later wrote that it was the "best band touring at that time in history." The performance was stunning!!! Does anyone have any insight from his writings about his least favorite KC tunes? Cheers, Chuck Stack in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:11:42 EST From: Elecat at aol dot com Subject: 5/4 Hey Gang! I know this is getting old but...the "common" groove in 5/4 is with accents on one, the "&" of two, four, and five. This groove is common to "Take Five," "Mission Impossible," "Living in the Past," as well as almost anything else by Brubeck in 5 ("God's Love Made Visible" from La Fiesta de la Posada comes to mind). I'm sure that Fripp grooves in 5, but I am unaware of any African or South American genres that use it. Most of the weird time signatures can be found in East Indian and Eastern European Music. It's used for dancing. No really! I've found that I groove quite easily in 5&7, it's probably from all those years of Genesis, Crim, and Yes! ;-) Peace, John Marr Professor of Music Saddleback College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 03:29:29 EST From: GottaJibbootwo at aol dot com Subject: Time Signatures, and an Unsung Hero of Jazz If you want to see some truly amazing, jaw dropping time signatures, check out a guy named Don Ellis. He was a jazz trumpet player/composer/band leader from the sixties/seventies, and was one of the last of the real "big bands" out there performing and still finding an audience. He died in the late seventies from a heart disease, very sad, but during his somewhat short career, he produced a truly amazing amount of music. Unfortuneately, most of his material originally released on vinyl is still in limbo for re-releasing. If you'd be familiar with one of his recordings, it would most likely be his "Live at Monterey" album from his band's performance at the 1967 Monterey Jazz Festival. It's on CD now, and it has some of the most mind boggling virtuosic awesome playing on it in the weirdest time signatures this listener has really ever heard. The greatest thing about his compositions in odd meters it that they ALL swing! There's not one chart of his that seems overly "mathematical" which is what I feel with Crimson, even though it may seem that way sometimes. But an example would be the leadoff tune from the Monterey album, "3-3-2-2-2-1-2-2-2" which is in a quick 19/8 meter, but the real amazing part is his band's counterpoint melodies and just the general ferocity of his brass section's playing. It leaves you just slack jawed and kind of awe stricken. Not to mention his phenomenal trumpet playing. In my humble opinion, Don Ellis was one of the greatest Trumpet players of all time, if not the best. Now technically, Gillespe or some others may have him beat for sheer speed of playing, but if you want to talk musicality combined with the most adventuresome spirit this side of Bela Bartok, it's Don all the way. You also may have heard of him as the composer of the music for the film "The French Connection" for which he won an oscar. If you can manage to get your hands on a copy of his "Live at the Fillmore" album, treasure it with all your might, because it is so far only available on vinyl and I consider it one of the greatest fusion recordings ever released. The man was incredible, and I just hope that he won't soon be forgotten. I'm sure any musician familiar and interested in odd meters and ingenuitive composition has at least heard of Mr. Ellis, but it should be required that said musician should listen to his work with great respect and enthusiasm. Check him out at all costs, not to be missed. One of the greatest musicians ever. I could go on forever. Sadly, I was not alive during his heyday, and never had the opportunity to witness him live, but my father had seen him about three times, and he was the one that got me into him originally, and I envy that greatly! So do yourself a huge favor, and buy something of his NOW! Happy listening, Steve ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #958 ********************************