Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #957 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 957 Wednesday, 13 March 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: Apology from the moderator worst KC song Another Perfect Day Message For The Anti-Crimso to Dan, Andrew and Ali and one more in 5/4 fav KC tracks 21st Century Schizoid Band Playing this summer! 5/4 time - Inchcock - Bad KC songs more time sigs 5/4 Re: #956 The Moment The Ali Janab post ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:37:30 -0000 From: "Toby Howard" Subject: NEWS: Apology from the moderator Hi everyone, several people have asked me why the unpleasant and offensive post from "fscalijanab at hotmail dot com" was included in ET#954 and not moderated out by me. This was my mistake. I was rushed sending out that particular ET, and had I read the post properly, I would not have included it. So, my apologies to everyone. Some people have suggested the post was a joke. I don't know. But if it was, it was a pretty pathetic one. I'll include people's responses to the post in this issue, but I think after that the best plan would be to just ignore it. Cheers Toby ET Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:52:16 +0000 From: k dot furbank at mirror dot co dot uk Subject: worst KC song Great April Fool's joke from Ali Janab, who claims he cannot stand the music on KC's first album. A little early for those of us living in Blighty, where it is still March. On the subject of bizarre time signatures, I once saw Dave Swarbrick and Martin Carthy play a folk tune they insisted was in 1. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:12:58 -0600 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: Another Perfect Day The day in the life of a Wisconsin USPS rural mail carrier: Begin the route listening to ProjeKct X (Heaven & Earth) and King Crimson (Level Five). As one gets out into the country, listen to anything by Sonic Youth and say hi to all the farm animals and wildlife. To finish off the last 90 minutes, pop in a tape of any live show by Deep Purple (circa 69-71). I am will numbed into ecstasy by Blackmore and Lord. By the time I am back to the post office, all that bloody snow doesn't seem so bad. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:39:52 EST From: Goathead83 at aol dot com Subject: Message For The Anti-Crimso Dearest Loyal ETer's: This is of course precisely aimed at Ali and Andrew's recent posts: No one said you couldn't criticize the early Crimson records. You won't get nailed to a cross for such thoughts. It's good to have different opinions. This is music; there isn't any right or wrong, it's what someone likes or dislikes. To refer to the vast many as "bootlickers" is a bit heavy-handed. Shame on you. Those who don't enjoy ITCOTCK and the many others aren't being forced to be silent about it, they probably just don't wish to discuss it, that's all. Jeez. Oh, and I think you have wings mixed up. "You can be open-minded, but don't be so open-minded that you brain falls out." Joe Verble. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:38:50 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Makowsky Subject: to Dan, Andrew and Ali and one more in 5/4 Hello - In re: 5/4 - side 2 of Zep IV (ZOSO if you will) has a tune in mostly 5/4 with acoustic guitar and hand drums. It's pretty easy to count with. I wanna say it's the second tune on the side or, I guess the 6th tune on the CD. Pink Floyds "Money" is in 7/4 if the original questioner was looking for an example of that signature. To Dan Cooper ... Feelng distressed? %^) To Andrew D'Amour ... I'm all for free expression of opinions and I really don't care for ITCOTCK much (except 21st Century Schizoid Man) but isn't there something, non-music related, about Ali Janab's post that you found unsettling? Oh, and is Andrew D'Amour your "real" name? (any relation to that guy who writes the westerns?) To Ali Janab ...I really wanted to believe you're post was tasteless joke, but I can't. Musical opinion not withstanding (see previous paragraph) I think you said more than you meant to here. You're insistence on your musical prowess (and my inability to find you on ANY music web-site I know of) is stated in such a way that I can't help thinking that it's all bluff. A WELL-RESPECTED MUSICIAN (by who?) wouldn't have to state it. A Bass Master (are you sure those words were in the correct order) would know they weren't the only Master Musician in the world and would refrain from such ridiculous brags as "...I most likely have more musical talent than all of you put together"", especially in a forum where some have PROVED that they are musicians of some note. A "Turntabilist" would know that MIDI doesn't make a sound, but performs a function and might (but not necessarily) be able to spell turntablist correctly. Frankly, sir, I believe your self proclaimed credentials to be fraudulent, but you could tell us where your music can heard if you'd like to shut me up ...on this topic. As for your hysterical homophobia, what are you trying to hide/deny and from/to who? You obviously wanted some attention. I hope I made you happy. Kimsky/SNARK www.snarkattack.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:58:57 +1300 From: "Paul Brobbel" Subject: fav KC tracks I normally wouldn't indulge in such a post but I see that the area of KC that I'm most comfortable with is that which many of you seem to dislike. Maybe my tastes are a product of my youth, or maybe because TOAPP was my first KC experience. 1) Heartbeat In my last band we all had to pick one cover song for the band to play. I immediately lached onto playing KC but the problem with that is that this was a band playing Savage Garden type music. "Heartbeat" was perfect. It was sappy, short, simple, it had chords the other guitarist could play 2) Man With An Open Heart + TOAPP My girlfriend and I went on a long road trip through New Zealand (ok not that long). She did the driving, I managed the stereo. 7 hours of non-stop KC. Alas all I had was TOAPP and USA on tape. USA only surived one listen and that was on the noise gravel roads. TOAPP did a much better, due to it's quality pop sensibilities. These are my two favourite tracks and coincidentily my girlfriends too. She likes the ones with singing. 3) Matte Kudesai I never liked this song until recently but now it really apeals with its' feeling of intimacy. 4) Easy Money I like the jackbooted stomp of this track and the jazzy guitar wank. Again, one with lyrics so I can play it around my girlfriend from time to time. 5) Heaven & Earth has a futuristic and breathy quality which I like. Makes me think of things way off in the future. A nice change since most of my KC choises make me think of the eighties. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:58:11 -0000 From: Barrie Sillars Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Band Playing this summer! I have just received Aymeric Leroy's newsletter What's Rattlin and it mentions that at this years Canterbury festival during 23-25 August, a band named 21st Century Schizoid Band will be playing KC tunes. The line-up comprises of Peter Giles, Mike Giles, Ian McDonald, Mel Collins and Jacko Jakszyk. First I have heard of this! I had heard rumours of a reunion line-up, but nothing recently. Anyone else know more about this? Dr. Barrie Sillars Senior Principal Design Engineer Aerial Facilities Ltd Direct Line: +44 (0)1494 777026 Email: BarrieS at aerial dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:22:14 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: 5/4 time - Inchcock - Bad KC songs The recent discussion of KC tunes in 5/4 times reminded me of a song on Darryl Hall's Sacred Songs album. "You're selling yourself and that's a matter of fact your love is your life and your life is you act, so ya gotta have something in 2/4 time, ya gotta have something that always rhymes, ya gotta have something in 4/4 time, ya gotta have something, gotta have something that rhymes." Writing credits to Hall and Fripp. Please note that 'time' doesn't really rhyme with 'rhymes'. As Alanis Morrisette might say, isn't it ironic? Mike, the term INCHCOCK is an anatomical reference to a current or ex-member of KC. The negatives are sealed in a vault so that Josette doesn't get her hands on them. Igor, chill out. Just because we criticise KC doesn't mean that we don't like them. Everybody has a bad day at the office. My three long standing favourite artists are KC, David Bowie and Brian Eno. Bowie especially has made loads of rubbish records - just about everything he released in the 1980s for a start. Eno released Neroli which was dull, dull, dull. KC, well, don't get me started. But quite often the bad records were made in an attempt to try something new and different. We can applaud the enterprise and still laugh at the results. The truly bad artists are the ones that never take a chance. GordonTaylor ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 2002 11:31:07 +0000 From: Tony Burton Subject: more time sigs > Discipline starts in 5/4 (easy to hear), switches to 4/4 (sounds busier) at > approx 45 seconds, switches back to 5/4 at approx 1 minute 3 seconds, then > 4/4 (busy again) at 1 minute 25 seconds. I thought Discipline was largely in a mind-boggling 17/8 - listen to the bass and drums. Of course, the guitars are probably not following the rhythm section anyway. > For another weird signature, you may want to check out the 9/8 section > of "Supper's Ready", in the "Foxtrot" album by Genesis. I find it mind- > boggling, and never really understood how they could record it, let alone > play it live. I'm in a Genesis tribute band, we play Supper's Ready pretty much at every gig. It's easy once you get used to it. Tony and visit www.handbag.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:41:22 -0500 From: "Fisher, Troy" Subject: 5/4 > Actually I think the Mission Impossible theme would be considered 10/8 > (counted 123-123-12-12) not 5/4 I've seen/played the sheet music and it's definitely written in 5/4. The 10/8 "feel" it has is just that it's asymmetric 5/4, which gives the triplet feel across the first 3 beats. For a more symmetrical 5/4 check out "Everything's Alright" from Jesus Christ Superstar. A good one-shot example of the difference between symmetrical and asymmetric meters is "Rondo A La Turk" which has 3 measures of asym. 9/8 (12-12-12-123) followed by 1 measure of symmetrical 9/8 (123-123-123). An interesting tidbit: When the Mission: Impossible movie was released the theme song was actually "dumbed down" to 4/4. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:57:53 +0000 From: "sun-loving ape" Subject: Re: #956 The Moment Hello ETers, this is my first post--once again i hope this gets through and isn't destroyed by Toby :) Dr. Howard I think you have a good idea going and I guess I'm here to add kindling. First of all, I personally don't pay attention to the current state of popular music like, as you mentioned, Creed(I consider myself a punk and therefore operate outside the lines of mainstream ethics and profit). From my own personal experience I've seen that so many people just want to be in a band so badly that they 'forget' to dedicate time to crafting their own vision and sound. This waters down an already watered down 'culture'. Anyway, pop music hasn't been artistic IMO since Soundgarden broke up. There are a couple of 'popular' bands attempting to do original ideas with both the form and sound. But on the whole I see two problems. One is that popular music is comprised of the all image/no substance ideal while being driven by profit. Two is that the forms of music never change. People want their metronome beats and pre-school guitar riffs. They don't want to make and digest a feast(and that's fine, it's their deal). Personally I don't mind spending years writing songs if that;s what it takes... But the the thing is there will always be bands like King Crimson in the sense that they are pushing art instead of selling crack, i mean, image to the tv babies. Now, King Crimson has in the past and to every extent the present changed the form around. The ProjeKcts (or whatever) IMO not only represented discovery of new sounds but also of new forms. Just look at "The Deception of the Thrush". It has 3 distinct parts that never repeat but augment eachother. This, I think, is a first for KC(bad memory). The rest of the songs on Level 5 IMO also do much to change form and sound. My point is that I think King Crimson is onto exploring new sounds. Each member is using new technology(with real instruments as opposed to computer 'musicians') to give rock music a different edge. I personally do this in my own music too and am looking for others in the Madison, WI, area who are looking to push the form and sounds of music. My own goal is to constantly evolve musically regardless of the current trends. Just remember, Dr. Howard that 'cool is eternal but it is always dated'. We just have to see past the cultural carpeting and not become apathetic. Jeramaya Albert: "Oh yeah? Well, I've had about enough of morons and halfwits, dolts, dunces, dullards, and dumbbells--and you chowderhead yokel, you blithering hayseed, you--you've had enough of me?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:24:53 -0800 (PST) From: Frank P Subject: The Ali Janab post Uhhh....guys? I think the original Ali Janab post is a joke. Frank ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #957 ********************************