Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #954 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 954 Monday, 11 March 2002 Today's Topics: Least favorite topics Model Man more about "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" worst KC song Hooked on Elephants Song Parody "challenging" music. Re: Rosenbergs Article Re: 5/4 topic Oh Yeah? Yeah! Miles / Robert / Toyah Re: Arguments! Re: Arguments! Re: 5/4 - mainstream to us, eh? I guess people don't like or has never heard....... how do you spell BROU-HA HA Re: 5/4 time signature examples Re: song parodies, crimson style Re: fripps on stage persona Re: prog/progressive ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:54:53 -0600 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Least favorite topics Least favorite topics on ET: 1. Why A should still be in KC instead of B. 2. How great the past is. 3. The [non-]musicality of certain musicians. [via non-musicians] 4. Personality dissections of Fripp et al. "I'm just an idiot, but at least I admit it." - Gum B. of Mastica ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:37:27 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Model Man >How about side A of TOAPP? Model Man just sucks. One of my favorite songs. Man with an Open Heart is another. - S. np: Tony Levin, Waters of Eden scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:59:41 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: more about "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" Andrew Loban info at russiancd dot net sent me a copy of this post: >Obviously the CD is a compilation. >You may check for CD details at: >http://www.russiancd.net/tracks/crimsonguide.htm. Please don't ask me >about live recordings - I just can't tell where they were taken from. >About CD's with bonus tracks Russian release of Level Five has four >bonus tracks - actually whole Robert Fripp EP Pie Jesu. Unless we get info to the contrary, I still say it's unautorized material. Seems this is another case of product self-promotion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:03:20 -0500 From: "Ali Janab" Subject: worst KC song Hello, all. It has come to my attention that a "Least Favorite King Crimson Song" thread is now the hottest topic on ET. This is a subject for which I have a great deal of passion, as I cannot stand the music of the first album. The five tunes on In the Court of the Crimson King are among the worst music I have ever heard in my entire life, and I listen to a lot of music. A whole lot. As well, I am a musician, a WELL-RESPECTED MUSICIAN at that. So, for all you Crimson die-hards that actually enjoy the album, dont try to act like your opinion is better than mine, because I most likely have more musical talent than all of you put together. Really. Now, onto the five worst songs... 21st Century Schizoid Man - This song is horrible. In fact, it is so bad that I've never been able to listen to it all the way through. It starts off with a broken organ or some shit like that and then it goes into some bullshit riff that my 2-year-old granddaughter could have written. The only good thing is that it is kind of heavy. And what's with the lyrics? Cat's foot iron claw? This is usually where I lift the needle or the turntable to song 2. Unfortunately... I Talk to the Wind - God, why??? Only if I was a DRUGGIE and HOMO would I listen to this. Good music for frolicking in the fields and staring at little boys private parts, if you ask me. The only use for this tune might be that it'd be a good theme song for the National Man-Boy Love Association, but it is probably too corny for those miscreants. Epitaph - Listen, when I want to put a gun to my head and rob the world of my talent, I'll listen to this song. It gets kind of heavy at the end, though, which would be good if not for Greg Lake singing about crying his eyes out like a pansy. Moonchild - A cheesy ballad that segues into 69 or so minutes of NONSENSE!!! Again, after a few minutes (they feel like hours) I lift, no wait, I don't even lift the needle on my turntable... I just grate it across the record, hoping to scratch the song out of its miserable existence. The Court of the Crimson King - Ok, this is obviously just filler material... I guess they couldn't write another crappy song so the wrote the WORST SONG EVER!!! Stupid lyrics, gay flutes, and an orchestra or something... Sounds like some kind of MIDI crap. I hate this song, I hate this song, I HATE this song. In fact, I give it too much glory when I call it a song. This is trash, in my opinion. So, I hope I didn't sound too harsh, but as a REAL musician and a REAL songwriter (one with a lot of respect, I might add), I can safely say that this is the worst prog album ever. It pales in comparison to later King Crimson (John Wetton and Adrian Belew). I'm just glad that the band could live on to create some good music after such a pansy debut. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated, either through this list or private email. Ali Janab Hard Rock Guitarist, Bass Master, Turntabilist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:28:56 -0500 From: "Dan @ magna carta" Subject: Hooked on Elephants Toby and All, I've been enjoying the interplay on Elephant Talk. I signed up after I read the April Fool post from a few years back. I'm still waiting on those 8 track remasters, hopefully they'll be ready by the time I can afford to buy an old Gremlin. I don't mind the analytical stuff, I can always skip over things that don't interest me. I never quite understood the 'pretentious' rap that prog always got. Its only Rock'n'Roll, but we like it. Every once in a while you just want to shout: "Open your minds people, Listen, Read, Paint; but don't take this all so seriously". Keep up the good work. And I don't even wanna know why John has plenty of vaseline on hand, er as it were. Thanks, Dan@magnacarta Check out a bit of the sound sample of Niacin covering "Red" on http://www.magnacarta.net when you get the chance. I promise the next post won't be just a shameless plug for the label. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:11:36 -0600 From: matt Subject: Song Parody I got one for you: 21st Century Shit Boy-Band ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:58:43 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: "challenging" music. > Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:11:18 +0000 (GMT) > From: Kevin Marriott > Subject: Re: good music > Is Prog self-glorifying? Good question. > Is Fripp/KC self-glorifying? I would say not. > But is Fripp Prog? I have no idea. Frankly, I couldn't > care less. I like complex/strange/interesting music, and it just so > happens that it is sometimes difficult to play. Who > cares? > > Kev I just got through listening to Oregon-- the vanguard years and in the liner notes it gives Ralph Towners opinion of musical categories- "people can find us in the record bins" Its just a marketing ploy invented by someone forced to pigeon-hole something for the purposes of the label only. the group Oregon went through many different categorizations through the years, even though their recordings stayed exactly the same. One description I liked was that it was 'challenging'. Isnt that one way of describing progressive music? Stephen, a fan of "challenging" music. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:07:49 -0800 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Re: Rosenbergs Article >From: "Josh Chasin" >Subject: Rosenbergs Article > >One of the guys in the Rosenbergs wrote this scathing-- and hilarious-- >indictment of the music biz. As they are on DGM, I thought it might be of >interest to some. The link: > >http://www.starpolish.com/features/article.asp?ID=331 Thanks for the link Josh. Thank god, I don't make music for a living. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:32:28 +0100 From: "Kees van Dongen" Subject: Re: 5/4 topic Hi All, First post, long time KC fan. On the 5/4 topic, does: Traa-doom-doom-Traa-doom-doom-Traa-toko-Traa-toko Traa-doom-doom-Traa-doom-doom-Traa-toko-Traa-toko (and so on) 1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6------7----8----9-----10 ring a bell? Errr, btw not 5/4 but 10/8 as far as I analyse it. Regards, Kees ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:59:14 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Oh Yeah? Yeah! In ET 953, Martin Roberts takes me up thusly: > From: Martin Roberts > Alright then Josh, let's have at it! Being relaxed and enjoying life's > pleasures doesn't mean I won't kick your ass and toss down a beer or two > after!! Maybe you have a point. Upon reflection, let's just skip ahead to the beers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:17:17 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Miles / Robert / Toyah Gordon Taylor: Too, there may be an element of discomfort with much of the audiences too often boorish tone informing Roberts on-stage recessing. Miles Davis did the same thing, always turning his back to the audience (it derived from his many long years of suffering racism, a history not comforted by his later acceptance, leading to an ambivalence mixed with contempt - and a very rightful disdain at that, experience being the educator). I saw him two weks before he died, at a JVC Jazz Fest, and he maintained that attitude right to the bitter end. Having seen Crimson many times in the 70s, I got the distinct impression of there being an intelligent distancing that Fripp was placing twixt he and The Herd. From what I can tell, that sentiment hasnt changed. The posts I read from recent concerts tell of a good deal of people yelling out drunkenly, making demands, insensate to anything but the exultation of their egos amidst fellow sheep. Thats gotta be a pain in the ass to so intelligent a musician as Robert (I once listened, stunned, while Pete Townshend stopped a Who concert at the Forum and lambasted the audience for gorging on their drugs & sociality and not being attention to the music - Robert has frequently registered the same complaint, its there on many bootlegs and in the live box set materials). The only corollary I can think of on our level would be the embarassment and revulsion we feel for some of the dweeb, Vaseline-drinking, gosh-golly, cheerleading pseudo-critics out there, that we could name, people published only through the sole saving grace of an acquaintanceship with a publisher (certainly, their chirographic skills are laughable at best) - in that, we occupy a position, having to read their third-grade drivel, that Robert or Miles have, they just fielded a similar idiocy more immediately. Were any of us to be able to trade places with Robert or Miles, though, I think the difference between audience and musician would be plain enough, in a world of contrasts. I think a number of us might affect the same protective cloak. As to Toyah...ha-ha!!! Ive said much the same thing about Roberts about-face on releasing live material (music is of the moment, it shouldnt be documented, as he said, or very close to it, in a Musician magazine interview, I believe it was). Once he got hitched...man! The floodgates opened up and philosophy went out the window. However, I have no complaints whatsoever, were all winners on that score. Just look at all the killer material! Thanx, Toyah, for the inadvertant blessing. Lets hope married life continues to demand cash flow for them. Jon Buckley: Excellent observance. Your putting a name to it concretized the same thing for me, a matter that had been abrasing the corners of my perception. There is indeed a glaring lack of the earlier contrastive decorousness that once so beautifully filled KCs material. What there is of it now is of an ilk with the so-called ambientists (Moby, Orb, Orbital, etc,), who are talented techno-geeks but only barely musicians, contriving deficient apings of much better material theyve heard but not understood. Like you, I still love KC but also detect the smell differential, listening far more often to the old material and finding little of the KC dynamism in releases like TCOL - still better than most of what passes for music nowadays but suffering when paired up against KCs own classics. A witty post, bub, keep it up. p. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:28:55 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: Arguments! Darin Lemieux wrote: "pps - anyone else listened to Pink Floyd's "Animals" album? I'm loving it at the moment - I highly recommend it, any KC fan would enjoy this one I think." It's my favorite Pink Floyd album, and IMHO Gilmour's most interesting and creative guitar work. Hope others agree. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:28:55 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: Arguments! Darin Lemieux wrote: "pps - anyone else listened to Pink Floyd's "Animals" album? I'm loving it at the moment - I highly recommend it, any KC fan would enjoy this one I think." It's my favorite Pink Floyd album, and IMHO Gilmour's most interesting and creative guitar work. Hope others agree. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 19:50:08 -0500 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: 5/4 - mainstream to us, eh? Dr. John wrote: "When I teach Music Fundamentals I love to use Crim/Genesis/Yes to demonstrate weird time signatures. Two Crimpieces in 5 that I can think of are: Larks Tongue in Aspic II-The opening groove, it switches to 4 then back to 5 again. Waiting Man-the LIVE version from "Absent Lovers." Now the main groove hereis in 3 BUT after the percussion riff gets established, it switches to 5 for 4 bars and then back to the main groove. All this happens before the guitar comes in. I'm sure that there are many more examples, but these are the only two I can think of off the top of my head." ***************************** ******************************** How about Lament- that was a fun one to play on bass! Love those crunchy sevens! Of course Discipline is a nice multi- counter point piece. I have been listening and playing 5's, 6's, 7's and 13's for so long that everything else sounds off to me! I bet a lot of you fellow players/listeners are that way too, eh? On our newest album just released, "Tarth Shooke", the title track, swings in a 19 count (yes it does swing!), to 4/4, 6/8, back to 19, then to 17 then a 3/4-5/4 (18/count) ride to the ending. A fun song to play and hopefully to listen to. I would recommend starting off those music students early on 'odd' time signatures - expanding a few synapses in those nether brain regions is a good thing - often going to those 5's & 7's just helps to make the 4/4 funk groove parts that much better! For those who may be interested check out Smokin' Granny's newest release, Tarth Shooke (CDBaby, etc) and watch for reviews in Progression, Expose', etc. Power to the counter point and the swing in 19! Brian Preston basses/production ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:55:43 EST From: Johnguti at aol dot com Subject: 5/4 Crim Dear ET, On the subject of "not liking KC", I would like to give my observation on last year's KING CRIMSON/John Paul Jones concert I attended in Los Angeles. I was very surprised to see people leaving the concert after the John Paul Jones opening act. I had been anxious months before to see King Crimson concert, since it's been my favorite progressive rock group, along with GENTLE GIANT, but I was disappointed to see people not staying to appreciate KING CRIMSON's poignant style. Thank you and LONG LIVE THE CRIMSON KING ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:20:53 -0800 From: "Michael Britt" Subject: I guess people don't like or has never heard....... 1. Least favorite KC song: frame by frame (live version), red, discipline (live version) 2. Most favorite KC song: red (live version: KC80, KC2k), frame by frame, the beat album as one song 3. Best player on a particular instrument: Levin and Belew 4. Bands who do or don't qualify as "prog": Radiohead is prog, Mudvayne (yes I said mudvayne) Tool, Aphex Twin, Floyd, Soundgarden, Smashing Pumpkins, Mr Bungle who is not?.. um.. weezer? 5. Lists of least favorite list topics. Every post is necessary. So how about we change that to: 6: Lists of MOST favorite list topics: Hey I found a KC influenced band Hey Im in a band heres my website so all of you can tell me how much it sucks Odd time signatures Hey I hate your favorite KC song so why dont you flame me About Adrians Lyrics Posts mentioning Tool, Genesis, ProjeKct 3, and Dream Theater Mp3 The 5/4 stuff: Indiscipline, The Howler, Model Man, Discipline (after the break, not in live versions), LTIA p2, the intro to Red, the intro to Neurotica, Five Forks (P3), and mp3 titled king crimson and if a dog can dream, and Im sure theres much more that I missed. TCOL! I agree with Darin Lemieux if you havent already, GO LISTEN TO ANIMALS! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:46:27 EST From: Mfortfam at aol dot com Subject: how do you spell BROU-HA HA "Ken Montgomery" wrote: >> If you're trying to understand 5/4 or get a feel for what it sounds like (with a strong beat/pulse) the best example I can think of isn't a KC song but Dave Brubeck's "Take Five." (I think any serious music fan knows this song.) >> Another non-KC song in 5/4 that I'd think a lot of people might recognize would be the theme to the TV series "Mission: Impossible". (I always thought that Tull's "Living In The Past" resembled that rhythm, moreso than the one used in "Take Five".) It seems to me that the 2nd section of ELP's song "Trilogy" is in 5/4, as well as one of the instrumental movements in "Tarkus"? (can't name the section off the top of my head... sorry) And hey, how about the 2nd movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony ("Pathetique")?! 'YesELPkCrimson' (MarkF) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 00:23:16 -0500 From: "Jon Woodworth" Subject: Re: 5/4 time signature examples >>So there they are, and I don't know if this sort of thing has been >>done >>before or not, but hey, it's fun. I'd also like to see other people's >>parodies of songs...perhaps "21st Century Businessman", "In the >>Court >>of the >>Burger King", or "Into the Celing Fan"? Who knows? How about "Into Afghanistan" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:04:52 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: song parodies, crimson style >The kindest explanation is that it is a persona that has been developed somewhat with the intention of not overshadowing the rest of the band who are >generally less well known and perhaps might be thought of as mere supporting artists. I'm getting a bit frustrated with all these "explinations" and theories as to why Fripp acts the way he does on stage, or rather doesnt act at all. Personally I think you are giving him too much credit to say that he made a conscious decision to step down and get in the background so that he would highlight his band mates. first of all, i dont say you give him too much credit cause he doesnt deserve credit, but because i doubt anyone would do that. I personally don't understand how any musician could SIT on a stool for an entire concert, let alone an entire career of playing some of the most inspired,wildest and craziest experimantal rock music ever made. Doesnt Fripp ever just wanna rock out? i mean, i cant say for sure if he has been on a stool his whole career but thats what i hear. He seems a lot more outgoing and funloving in the 70's, but as far as i know he was on a stool then too. it is beyond me, to the point where it kind of bothers me. Now its been said on this list that he does that because sitting like that takes weight off the wrist allowing him to play better... and i find that to be total bullshit. plenty of people play faster then he does and they dont sit down to do it. if that is the reason then that is ridiculous to me. even pompous. but i dont think it is. it doesnt matter though. im not going to give my theory as to why he does this, because i dont care anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:17:05 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: fripps on stage persona >Is Prog self-glorifying? Good question. >Is Fripp/KC self-glorifying? I would say not. >But is Fripp Prog? I have no idea. Frankly, I couldn't care less. ive been thinking about this.. especially since KC is the only "PROG-ROCK" i really listen to. as every single aspect of Genisis except the actual songs ive heard interests me i intend on giving them another shot, and some of the other "PROG" bands ive read about on this list. but over all, as far as im concerned i think that PROG has become something other then what i consider King Crimson, which is 'progressive'. i like the word PROGRESSIVE a lot. the word it self got me interested in the music. how could you not be interested in a genre of music named to push foward , maybe breaking ground, progressing into new forms.. when i think "prog-rock" i think genisis, yes, etc etc.. i dont really think king crimson though. and if they do fall in that category , they fell out of it in 1973. for me at least. now i think i should mention i hate categorizing music, its not fair to the music. there are certain characterizing aspects of what people generally consider to be prog rock though, and thats what im basing this on. ive become turned off by the term 'prog-rock' though, andyet im still very interested in music that is 'progressive'. Im not sure that i would ever consider KC in the same category as Yes though, or even Genisis, and while i respect Genisis, i dont, thus far, listen to them. KC (1969-1972) sounds more like Genisis then oh say The Doors, but i find them to be very different. and like i said , if they were in the Prog category with Genisis , their 73-74 line up put them in a category all there own. which is really what its all about. To me King Crimson music is King Crimson music, and while the music is progressive, I dont like to consider it Prog. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #954 ********************************