Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #953 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 953 Thursday, 7 March 2002 Today's Topics: Easy to discern 5/4 K.C. part Re: Am not, are too! Best/Worst of KC Re: 5/4 time signature examples in KC? more 5/4 Responses to various comments from # 950 5/4 KRIMSONITE Model Man Rosenbergs Article 5/4 Crim John Wetton Convention in July Arguments! This-song-is-in-5 Song parodies Song Parodies Re: Some folks don't like King Crimson... Prozac Blues more about "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" 5/4 time signatures Old Ears & The Massive Missive Re: 5/4 time signature examples in KC? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:03:38 -0500 From: dan buxbaum Subject: Easy to discern 5/4 K.C. part In the last E-T, Lewis W Beard wrote: "Can anybody recommend any King Crimson songs that have sections in 5/4 times that would be easy to distinguish?" The easiest, most simple to discern 5/4 part (because it is played in an easy to count medium-slow tempo) in a Crimson piece that comes to my mind is the heavy "demonic" riff part of Larks' Tongues In Aspic, Part 1, which the full group (including both percussionists, if you've seen the Beat Club video) slam into after the soft, spacey opening section. You know, the "da-da-da-da, bvroom!" section (sorry 'bout this simple, phonetic description). I don't own the studio Larks' Tongues disc, as I prefer the various live versions of these pieces, so unfortunately I can't give you the cd timing section, but the above description should (hopefully) be quite clear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:18:16 -0500 From: Martin Roberts Subject: Re: Am not, are too! Alright then Josh, let's have at it! Being relaxed and enjoying life's pleasures doesn't mean I won't kick your ass and toss down a beer or two after!! Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:12:52 -0600 From: "Brothers, Michael (IA)" Subject: Best/Worst of KC Michael Britt wrote: [How about side A of TOAPP? Model Man just sucks. Do they ever throw away songs? Id rather have a 5 song disc like red then TOAPP where half of it is dated 80s poprock and the other half is king crimson. [Two Hands and Heartbeat might be the absolute worst, but on the other hand I actually like those songs so you guys can die. And yes I understand that they are only 80s poprock album fillers so dont bother pointing that out to me. [Discipline is perfection. Anyone who doesnt like it should be drug out into the street and shot.] Thank God I like 'Discipline'. But then if we followed through on this suggestion it would be a sparsely populated world. :) I can't quite come to grips with this topic, especially the derision heaped on KC songs that have even a hint of a 'pop' melody, whatever that is. First of all, there isn't an artist going who has a fan that likes EVERYTHING in the canon. I tend to skip past 'Inner Garden' when listening to 'Thrak', but that doesn't mean it's a terrible song. There are times when it's just exactly what I'm in the mood to hear. 20% of the stuff on 'The Beatles' is unlistenable in my opinion, but I still regard it as a great album. The central tenet of this thread is specious at best. Which leads me to TOAPP and Michael's labeling some of it as 'dated 80's pop rock.' Say what? These songs are as far from 80's pop rock as a melodious rock song can get. Remember some of the acts you are comparing KC to here--The Bangles, Michael Jackson, Journey, Foreigner, et al--and honestly tell me if any of them could have written a tune with the drive of 'Sleepless,' or the quirky melody of the title song. All musicians, even the transcendent genius types like Fripp, Belew, Levin, and Bruford, are influenced somewhat by their time. The great thing about the 'pop' (it hurts to even type that) songs on 'Beat' and TOAPP is that they looked at the landscape, and dared to show what an inventive 'pop' song could be. I say, appreciate them for what they are, and leave the ill-conceived labels to the USA Today music reviewers. Take Care, mike Michael Brothers Iowa Army National Guard 515-334-2822 fax 515-252-4589 "We don't do enough bobsledding." -The Tick ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 2002 22:46:31 +0000 From: Tony Burton Subject: Re: 5/4 time signature examples in KC? > Can anybody recommend any King Crimson songs that have sections in 5/4 > times that would be easy to distinguish? The obvious one I can think of is Lark's Tongue's In Aspic Part 2 - it's easier to count as 10/8 rather than 5/4, but there's no real difference. Try counting the main riff as 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3-4 and it should make sense. > Other bands are OK also ... I have all of the Yes and ELP and Jethro > Tull and Flower Kings albums (and more groups too but between those maybe > an example will be forthcoming). Can't think of any right now! I bet there's loads. "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck... erm... help me out here guys... Tony and visit www.handbag.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:39:37 -0500 From: dan buxbaum Subject: more 5/4 How about the main monster riff in "Indiscipline"? (It's common knowledge that Jethro Tull's "Living In The Past" is in 5/4, inspired by Dave Brubeck's "Take Five"[?]) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:42:59 -0500 From: joebizarre Subject: Responses to various comments from # 950 To Jordan Clifford: I agree with you 100% that Crimson lyrics have been very trite over the years. From the Giles Giles and Fripp "Rodney" dialogues to Cat Food to "Health Food Faggot" to all of the listing songs that Belew has contributed the element that comes to mind is cheeky. The early Sinfield tunes were usually vague. They never really described a complete story, but they got out of the way and sounded nice over the music. He did the same for ELP. Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Jon Anderson and Ian Anderson used very similiar styles. To my American friends and I, this sounded very British and we kind of left it at that. The later Sinfield lyrics that Boz sang, the Wetton lyrics, and some of the Belew lyrics were seemingly written for shock value. They were supposed to be images of harsh reality. Mostly they were pretty silly. Especially Belew's latest. They do detract from TCOL. I have to disagree with you about The Letters though. The first time I heard the song I thought that Boz (or Sinfield) was admitting to a homosexual act (I thought that was pretty ballsy for 1971. It wouldn't make a blip on today's pop culture radar). I stopped my car, rewound the tape and listened to the whole song again. I was a little disappointed, but I still think the line: "Your husband's seed has sown my flesh" is the greatest way to say "I slept with your husband". This lyric has inspired so many lyrical ideas in me over the years. Plus, it's so cool when Boz gets to the "Impaled on nails of ice!" line and wails it out like a Tom Jones' vegas show and gets softer and softer as the song fades out. To Dave Allen: I agree with you about people born in the late seventies and their opinions of progressive rock, except for one minor point. Most people born in the late seventies or later have no idea what progressive rock is. They may have heard of Yes and Genesis, but they only know the radio stuff and have no specific catagory for the bands other than oldies or classic rock. Yes, there are exceptions, but, believe me, I was working in a music store in the early 90's (when this generation was starting to discover music), for the most part, they've never heard of it. As a matter of fact, they used to use the word progressive to describe bands like Depeche Mode, Nitzer Ebb and The Smiths. Go figure. To Nick Whittaker: Just a personal request. Please stop writing with numbers and letters in place of words. It is very annoying to read. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:28:03 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: 5/4 KRIMSONITE Can anybody recommend any King Crimson songs that have sections in 5/4 times that would be easy to distinguish? LEWIS, I recommend both LARKS' TONGUES IN ASPIC, Part II, DISCIPLINE & INDISCIPLINE. MX "OUTLAW" http://www.malcolmxerxes.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:01:00 -0600 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: Model Man I love side A of TOAPP, especially Model Man - welcome to a space-time warp - and its sentiments. I'm glad they didn't toss it. MB: I don't know if it's poprock, but it certainly is music - ever heard it live? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:15:40 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Rosenbergs Article One of the guys in the Rosenbergs wrote this scathing-- and hilarious-- indictment of the music biz. As they are on DGM, I thought it might be of interest to some. The link: http://www.starpolish.com/features/article.asp?ID=331 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:44:35 EST From: Elecat at aol dot com Subject: 5/4 Crim Hullo! When I teach Music Fundamentals I love to use Crim/Genesis/Yes to demonstrate weird time signatures. Two Crimpieces in 5 that I can think of are: Larks Tongue in Aspic II-The opening groove, it switches to 4 then back to 5 again. Waiting Man-the LIVE version from "Absent Lovers." Now the main groove here is in 3 BUT after the percussion riff gets established, it switches to 5 for 4 bars and then back to the main groove. All this happens before the guitar comes in. I'm sure that there are many more examples, but these are the only two I can think of off the top of my head. Peace, John Marr Professor of Music Saddleback College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:46:26 -0800 From: "Brian Kelley" Subject: John Wetton Convention in July Forgive me if this has already been stated here, but I found this news VERY EXCITING!!!!! (And this being just less than a month AFTER Nearfest!!!) Think another trip from good ol' GA will be in the works fer sure! ;) Definitely need to bring my Sid Smith book, and other assorted goodies, too! John Wetton Fan Convention - July 20 and 21, 2002 Holiday Inn Conference Center, Lehigh Valley I-78 & ROUTE 100 Fogelsville, PA Check it out at: www.johnwetton.co.uk I mean, when was the last TIME he's ever stepped foot in the States?!!? Inquiring Crimson-UK-Asia-heads wanna know!!! :) "While with my friends I passed that age When people stomped on dirty floors Before I trod the rock 'n' roll stage..." - Lament, S&BB 1974 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:43:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Darin Lemieux" Subject: Arguments! 1. Least favorite KC song 2. Most favorite KC song 3. Best player on a particular instrument 4. Bands who do or don't qualify as "prog" 5. Lists of least favorite list topics. I believe these were the requested lists, correct? Well, here are my replies: 1) Least Favourite KC songs - Refer to ET #949 for my take on this one. 2) Most favourite KC songs - here they are: 1) Fracture 2) Schizoid 3) LTIA pt.2 4) Red 5) LTIA pt. 4 (honourable mentions going to Discipline, Cirkus and ITCOTCK) 3) Best player on any given instrument - when it comes to musicians, I believe there's no better or worse, only different. 4) Bands who do/don't qualify as prog - do: KC, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, ELP, Yes, etc. don't: take your pick, really - there's too many to list. 5) Lists of favourite topics - 1) anything dealing with KC's music or history or future. 2) anything dealing with music in general 3) Anything dealing with other prog bands 4) Josette's groupie stories (kidding). Well, that's it for now. Darin ps - to whoever asked about the 5/4 songs - Discipline has a very interesting 5/4 section to it, part of the LTIA pt. 2 main theme is in 5/4 (it alternates between 5/4 and 4/4) and I'm sure there's others but I can't think of 'em off-hand. pps - anyone else listened to Pink Floyd's "Animals" album? I'm loving it at the moment - I highly recommend it, any KC fan would enjoy this one I think. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:02:08 -0800 (PST) From: rone at ennui dot org (figmentality) Subject: This-song-is-in-5 >Lewis W Beard wrote: >> Which KC (or Yes or ...) tunes would qualify as 5/4? I can't think of any that run 5/4 through the whole song, but "Discipline" starts off in 5/8. >"Take Five" by Dave Brubeck is also in 5/4. That's the modern canonical 5/4 tune, although it was written by Paul Desmond, not Brubeck. rone and as we drift off topic, the toadies' "little sin" is also in 5/4... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:07:19 -0700 (MST) From: checkman Subject: Song parodies In ET #952, Steve gives us some parodies of KC songs, and asks: > So there they are, and I don't know if this sort of thing has been done > before or not, but hey, it's fun. I'd also like to see other people's > parodies of songs...perhaps "21st Century Businessman", "In the Court of > the Burger King", or "Into the Celing Fan"? Who knows? I like to call such parodies "Yankovisms", in honor of Weird Al. While I have not attempted any KC songs (how irreverent!), I have written a few Yankovisms myself, mostly parodies of Jimi Hendrix tunes, a Dylan tune, a Buffalo Springfield tune and a Steppenwolf tune. If you are interested, you can read them here: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/yank.htm I like your titles, though - '21st Century Businessman" sounds like it would fit right in with my Hendrix parodies. Maybe I'll try a Crimso parody at some point! Cheers, David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 00:37:24 -0600 From: "Brandon S." Subject: Song Parodies It's nice to see that someone has a good sense of humor around here. I've seen a few funny posts lately, and it's a welcome change from the constant barrages of who is better than whoever else. I suppose I am partially responsible, though, for adding to the whole 'best guitar player' thing not so long ago....still, it's certainly a refreshing thing to read something in jest, to laugh, instead of grimace at the thought of another post on 'why this song sucks', and whatever else is floating around. Thanks to the funny people.... Brandon Stanley P.S. "Two Hands" is a wonderful song....true, it's not in 32/7 or whatever time signatures most of you are into, but it's a lovely tune, the lyrics, the chords, it's filled with lovely things and it makes you feel good.....of course, one man's opinion is another man's nothing-at-all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:07:02 -0600 From: John Beard Subject: Re: Some folks don't like King Crimson... "It must be rare, but does anyone else know folks who do not enjoy King Crimson...? Random C." Actually, I find the reverse to be true... very few folks enjoy KC. I believe most rockers find it too difficult , or it's not rootsy enough, or it's not Metal enough, Punk enough, etc. As for younger folks, MOST only want the corporate music du jour. Non-rockers find it too, well, Rock. Of course, I'm in Texas, and while there's a wide variety of good music, little of it could be called progressive in any way. -John Beard --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 02:54:05 -0500 From: "Craig Stamm" Subject: Prozac Blues Hi Folks, I haven't posteed in quite a while. I loved seeing the band this past December at The Palace Theater in Greensburg, PA. However, the excellent John Paul Jones Band got equal time and billing (a coup for their management). However, ZI have always thought (as a chemist) that Fluoxetine Blues would be a more appropriate title than the generic "Prozac Blues". It's just a suggetion that I would hope to get to the "boys"..... Best wishes, Craig (Dr. Evil) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:03:50 +0600 From: Andrew Subject: more about "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" Hello Obviously the CD is a compilation. You may check for CD details at: http://www.russiancd.net/tracks/crimsonguide.htm. Please don't ask me about live recordings - I just can't tell where they were taken from. About CD's with bonus tracks Russian release of Level Five has four bonus tracks - actually whole Robert Fripp EP Pie Jesu. Cheers, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:42:02 -0500 From: "Michael Destefano" Subject: 5/4 time signatures The main guitar riff on "Indiscipline" is an easy example of a 5/4 time signature (the figure is played in 5 quater note cycles-if you listen you can't miss it) A great non kc example is Jethro Tull's "Living in the Past"-it works so well that you can easily not realize the 5/4 time-it has a vague "Take Five " feel to it. I'm sure that there are alot of other examples within kc compositions (The intro to Red is in 5/4 I believe)..I just don't have the time or energy to find them right now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:56:12 -0600 From: "Jon Buckley" Subject: Old Ears & The Massive Missive Old Ears & The Massive Missive Having firmly crystallized within my common presence the admonition of our Common Cosmic Uni-Guitarist Endlessness that stated that if today's Crims failed to satisfy, one should "move on" and, of course, having not done so because the totality of my three presences still finds a great deal of "pleasure" in the output of the current Crims, Old Ears still can point out a different "smell" in this very same product of the current Crimso which distinguishes a change in "personality" of the King from earlier incarnations. This alteration of form from the aforementioned earlier incarnations may be represented in the following manner. Whereas the youthful Crims would routinely, as a matter of course, throughout the duration of an entire disc, show an almost startling contrast between hard and soft, and blend that contrast between acoustical and electrical instruments, the personality of today's Crims has almost completely done away with that very delightful contrast to such a point that should a tragedy of epic proportions afflict our planet in the form of a lack of ability for "electrical generation" so that our beloved Crims could no longer "plug in," well, my boys, the sad fact is that it might render today's Crims almost totally mute to the point where, as the ancient Toloosites would put it, they couldn't even make "a peep." And this is unfortunate to be sure. As I can recall, one of the distinguishing characteristics of the young King is just this high contrast, plus the natural, unique and exciting interplay of electrical with acoustical instruments. This characteristic was always such that it "set apart" our beloved band of merry men from all others. One could hope to hear with one's own two ears, a soft lyricism vividly contrasted to a vicious brutality. It was, at that point what made Crims, well? Crims. And of course made them unlike any other. Ehhhkh. Now don't get me wrong. It is still the opinion of this "missivist" that the present "monotone" Crims continues to delight far, far more that any other so-called "band" gracing the racks at the local "recorded music store." The Red King does, however, seem to be more today as other bands, each member firmly gripping only their single accustomed instrument of choice, resulting in a lack of, let us say, variety and a singularity of tonality. One simply wonders if it would be so bad for our Common Cosmic Uni-Guitarist Endlessness to pick up even an Ovation Shallowbody (and the level of "acoustic-ness" of even that device is open to debate) for a tune or two within the present Crimso. I mean, it has gotten so electrified of late that even the drums are V (V for virtual?). So with that, I end the flow of my exchange of subjective opinion and return to my Island to pop "The Construction" into my laptop and bop. So there. Old Ears Jon Buckley jonbuckley at earthlink dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:15:23 -0500 From: "Ken Montgomery" Subject: Re: 5/4 time signature examples in KC? Lewis W. Beard recently asked about 5/4 time signatures. If you're trying to understand 5/4 or get a feel for what it sounds like (with a strong beat/pulse) the best example I can think of isn't a KC song but Dave Brubeck's "Take Five." (I think any serious music fan knows this song.) When playing it in a former jazz quintet, our drummer had to count it out in his head 1-2-3 1-2, etc. (!) Lewis- if you're trying to understand time signatures in general, just remember that the top number refers to how many beats there are per measure and the bottom number refers to which length note gets the beat (i.e. 5 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat). I think people here get too hung up on this stuff anyway... Just enjoy the music- who cares who can play in atypical time signatures. Is it "better" to play in 13/8 than in 4/4? Of course not. Monty ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #953 ********************************