Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #951 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 951 Wednesday, 6 March 2002 Today's Topics: Tribute to Eno's Early Vocal Work Re: ET #950 posts Re: Annette Peacock- "I`m the One" Funky Fripp! Am not! Are too! Ladies Crim Ah, yes, the 70's! Fripp's On Stage Persona Beat, Worst KC tune, Alien Penis, MP3 Reponses 5/4 time signature examples in KC? 1st post. Re: Also, will we ever see any KC alumni in Australia ? In regards to Worst KC tune + a thought about the new T Lev album ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 02:46:45 -0500 From: "S. Davids" Subject: Tribute to Eno's Early Vocal Work Hello KCrim-folk...A group of musicians in Boston are in the process of planning a performance of Brian Eno's early rock music. They are very interested in hearing any thoughts that the readers of ET may have about this. Please feel free to drop a line to: savine1234 at hotmail dot com Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:55:08 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: Re: ET #950 posts Posters - I have plenty of vaseline, good pliers, & some soothing Tucks. Anyone wanna volunteer to have the rod removed from their overanalyitical butt? your servant, John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 11:39:21 -0600 From: Craig Subject: Re: Annette Peacock- "I`m the One" I think Annette`s great......... Check out her album "I`m the One" (that`s the one!)............... awesome!!!! ~Craig >I love those Bruford discs (Feels Good To Me and One Of a Kind) but >I prefer it when Annette Peacock *doesn't* sing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:54:49 -0500 From: dan buxbaum Subject: Funky Fripp! Robert Fripp's prolific precision engaging the inner break of a 'phat' backbeat is well evident in his opening solo from the 1st encore improv (titled "Summit Going On") from the Collectors Club 9 'Live at Summit Studios, 1972' cd. His guitar playing throughout this laid-back, elongated, beverage-provided freebie(?) radio promotion show/concert illustrates wonderfully the early dynamic energy of Mr. Fripp's guitar talent. The mellotron-less performance and the loose 'no pressure' situation of an intimate audience gig at a "relaxed" recording studio adds to the specialness/uniqueness of this release in relation to the other early Crimson live '70s cds. Another fun part of this disc occurs before the final encore improv (with it's bits of "The Creator Has A Master Plan") when Mr. Mellow radio announcer-guy reminds the studio audience that there's still some beer. Robert says: "Alright, we'll all have a bit of beer, and then we'll come back and jam more." There's a fun young spirit to this show; and poor Fripp must have been laughing/crying inside when the rest of the group went into--yet another--12 bar, b-flat-or-similiar, bluesy type beat! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:06:42 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Am not! Are too! In ET #950, we are treated to this: > From: Martin Roberts > Good lord, why are there so many argumentative people posting to this discussion > forum? Surely none of us is so intelligent or knowledgeable that we can be > pessimistic and combative about any subject posted here. OK mate, that tears it. Let's you and me step outside right now and settle this thing like men. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:10:29 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Ladies Crim This relates back to the issue before (#949), but to the poster who submitted that only two women have appeared on King Crimson recordings-- have you totally forgotten about Jon Anderson's appearance on Lizard? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:15:41 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Ah, yes, the 70's! DAVE ALLEN: great post! You nailed most of the problems to the wall. However, theres one you missed, that Ive long found a key to understanding why progs (and most rock musics) greatest period is still the 70s: education. The largest part of what MADE the prog bands of the 70s was their superior British schooling. Over here, musical appreciation has always been almost completely absent from the schools - over there, exposure to classical music was a staple and contributed greatly to a connoisseurship of the finer things in life. Too, the rest of their education was superior and more efficacious than the American system (now, sadly, it appears England is on par with us - if you want an acknowledgement of how abysmal our system is, merely go back and read past ET snipes re: my mentioning how bad the schools are, from American teachers). The arts previously always figured as a key element in Britains school system (merely read the comments of the members of many prog bands, and rock bands, who came together at art schools). In interviewing, or communicating with, punk and post-punk bands, Ive found that the real inspirations for all the ones I liked were 70s bands, though they rarely admitted it in public, due to the conformity of herd opinionation you noted. One band I particularly liked, The Trouble With Larry (an east coast band thats been going for a long time and is still around, putting out great material), had incredibly good taste in music...most of it from the 70s. It showed in their complex, driving, and frequently funny music: you could hear KC, Free, Humble Pie, etc. It was from those bands that they'd learned a mode of composition superior to what is now practiced. Theyre one of the few bands Ive heard in the punk movement that actually realized what few potentials punk ever had (The Stooges had infinitely more raw passion and craft than 99.9% of the entire punk movement lumped together and squeezed dry). Even Fripp understood that there was SOME potential in punk, tried to interact with it (as seen in some of his extracurricular work), and largely found that there wasnt a lot of there there. We may note that he long ago gave up his experimentations in that genre. A note re: critics: most of them didnt even go so far as to become the failed musicians you note. Many never picked up an instrument in their lives, a failure that shows in their writing, as they havent the most rudimentary understanding of whats involved in the musical process. I have a good deal more respect for the failed musician crits...at least they tried and have a mechanical appreciation of the most fundamental aspect of becoming a musician. In fact, most of the crits I respect are either musicians, failed musicians, or teachers (Mike Ezzo, for instance, is a very good musician and a very good critic; Dean Suzuki is one of the best critics in this country and a music teacher; Jon Covach is also a highly interesting critic and a music teacher; etc.). Not to include you in this, but Ive found that most aficionados who rightfully abjure bad critics, who also regard and typify them as failed musicians arent understanding that those are mostly the ones who never even tried. In any event, the disdain toward them is 100% justified. Interestingly enough, youre right on the money regarding the social/artistic environment. The 70s bands enjoyed a *venue freedom* thats now non-existant. Frank Zappa once commented that had he been born later, his music would NEVER have made it before the public. Im not sure thats quite true - genius usually will out - but I completey understand his sentiment that rock completely commercialized at some point (usually attributed to the phenomenal success of Framptons *Comes Alive*) and came to preclude what was then so common, trimming away everything that didn't make millions RIGHT NOW!!!. The way youre discovering music is exactly the way we *baby boomers* did: exploration. Unfortunately for you, WE had a few great *underground* radio stations (I was able to tune in Pasadena's [Calif.] KPPC, one of the best) that skewed heavily to prog and GREATLY accelerated the process (you could go stone broke spending big bucks on imports, trying to discover who was good and who wasnt). We also had CIRCUS magazine, which devoted a lot of space to prog. I suggest you check out magazines like PROGRESSION and EXPOSE for access to whats going on in prog - both mags are completely devoted to progressive musics (Progression more to the traditional, Expose more to the wide spectrum) (I suppose I should also note that I write for both and expose my bias) and will GREATLY help one in finding out the surprisingly wide field of release choices extent that you absolutely cannot know of through normal media channels. Keep your attitude, man, and youll never have to worry about mediocrity. -marc- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:15:46 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Fripp's On Stage Persona Ah, the old "why does Fripp hide in the shadows" question. I've seen KC and Fripp in his other projects fairly regularly since the debut tour of "Larks Tongues". To begin with he was at the front of the stage always, so far as I remember, seated and sometimes behind the mellotron. He usually was usually faced obliquely across stage so that he was equally aware of the band and the audience. At this time he seemed perfectly affable and outgoing though obviously has never been the showman. When I saw the League of Gentlemen in a small venue when he was, of necessity, sat near the front of a tiny stage and he seemed very outgoing and even joked a couple of times with the audience. The somewhat curmudgeonly persona seemed too emerge shortly after this for no immediately discernable reason. The kindest explanation is that it is a persona that has been developed somewhat with the intention of not overshadowing the rest of the band who are generally less well known and perhaps might be thought of as mere supporting artists. But, as a number of people have noted, the effect is to make him more noticeable. Rather like a actor who wears shades in a restuarant. But it seems to have grown out of this original well meaning intention and become something of an irritating affectation in the same way as he gets annoyed at people taking photos. But it does occur to me that it did seem to develop much at the same time as he got marrried. Toyah was, how shall I put this, not the most respected figure in the world of music or acting and was given quite a hard time. Perhaps this in some way added to his, perhaps subconcious, decision to hide from the spotlight. But once these theries have been constructed we can look at the other side of the coin and see the Frippertronics performances which are often conducted solo in very open and public places which hardly seems to be the actions of a shy and retiring person. To be honest I think its just showbiz. Performers have a face they put on when they go to work and this is the one that Fripp has. Gordon Taylor. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:17:00 -0800 From: "Michael Britt" Subject: Beat, Worst KC tune, Alien Penis, MP3 How about side A of TOAPP? Model Man just sucks. Do they ever throw away songs? Id rather have a 5 song disc like red then TOAPP where half of it is dated 80s poprock and the other half is king crimson. Two Hands and Heartbeat might be the absolute worst, but on the other hand I actually like those songs so you guys can die. And yes I understand that they are only 80s poprock album fillers so dont bother pointing that out to me. Discipline is perfection. Anyone who doesnt like it should be drug out into the street and shot. [toby- feel free to cut out those lines if you deem them inappropriate.. I deem them entertaining.] The words for elephant talk are pure genius. Im quite surprised that many of you dont get it. The music is all that matters and vocals are there just because they have to be. Instrumental rock doesnt sell unless its CRAAAAZY, and although KC is crazy, theyre not CRAAAAZY. Anyway, I commend Belew for making lyrics that dont mean anything instead of telling us a story like everyone else does. The lyrics are VERY ENTERTAINING and fun to sing along to. Theyre absurd. Ridiculous. CRAAAAZY. Not that Im complaining, but what do others feel about the title track discipline? At times I wished it was shorter, I have a friend who insists that vocals couldve happened (I disagree), after I learned how to play it I wished there was less redundancy, more parts, longer in length, some time and tempo changes, more key changes, a part where Levin gets to show off, etc As for TCOL, I like prozakc blues but always get embarrassed when I tell someone about how awesome they are for an hour and I put on TCOL and skip the first track hey why did you skip that track? That sounded cool! dont worry about it, the next one is better but I wanna hear it! no! you get the idea. As for those who dis the penis of an alien thing, I think anyone who can play that shit and sing at the same time deserves to say whatever he wants. Period. Anyone else download King Crimson And If a Dog Can Dream.mp3??? Its definitely not king crimson but I like it and would like to know who it is. Thanks Mike http://duophone.com/dusk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:47:59 -0600 From: "Brandon S." Subject: Reponses Thanks to all those people who responded to my "Vrooom Vrooom" question.....I suppose that next time I should research these things more in-depth next time (I had confused the KCCC "Broadway" release with disc two of Vrooom Vrooom", which is in New York, so I was thinking for some reason that it was on Broadway....could you imagine THAT?). Brandon Stanley ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:22:47 -0600 From: Lewis W Beard Subject: 5/4 time signature examples in KC? All, A friend and I were listening to some abysmal Public Radio station where some guy was trying to explain 5/4 time and give some example tunes. The songs were horrible choices, because most of them were nebulous or didn't have an obvious beat. Can anybody recommend any King Crimson songs that have sections in 5/4 times that would be easy to distinguish? I am terrible at being able to remember which songs (if any?) are like that, except when I'm listening to them. Other bands are OK also ... I have all of the Yes and ELP and Jethro Tull and Flower Kings albums (and more groups too but between those maybe an example will be forthcoming). Can you help me out? Which KC (or Yes or ...) tunes would qualify as 5/4? Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:02:39 +1100 From: Stephen Higgins Subject: 1st post. Just wanted to endorse Will Dayble's post re ET lyrics. (ET950) I thought the lyrics in that particular song were just so clever and i'm happy to admit that it was what got me interested in KC in the first place. So if nothing else they have served a wonderful purpose in that regard. And Chris Keane wondered if we would ever see any KC alumni here in australia. That would be great but i'm pretty happy that another favourite guitarist of mine, Peter Green, is going to tour. I couldn't believe he didn't rate a mention in the recent discussion. His 'End of the Game' is a masterpiece of improvised rock guitar playing. Check it out. (and yes i know this thread is dead..but i didn't say he was the greatest..just my favourite.) As to least favourite tracks by KC...I'm in the happy position of still 'discovering' their good stuff so i haven't actually got around to being that critical yet, but i will admit to a preference for 80's onward stuff. Oh and on the following; >From: Martin Roberts >Subject: Happy to be alive > >Good lord, why are there so many argumentative people posting to this >discussion forum? Surely none of us is so intelligent or knowledgeable that >we can be pessimistic and combative about any subject posted here. Sorry but i have to disagree with you on this one...... Insert smiley thing here. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 06:11:35 From: "Spear man" Subject: Re: Also, will we ever see any KC alumni in Australia ? >Also, will we ever see any KC alumni in Australia ? No, but when are you gonna let the members of GONG outta Oz so they can play the USA again? --spearman np Tangerine Dream 7 Oct 2001 'inferno' first show Bernau St.-Marien-Kirche ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:47:36 EST From: GottaJibbootwo at aol dot com Subject: In regards to Worst KC tune + a thought about the new T Lev album In regards to the "worst KC song/lyric" what have you, I must say that I think TCOL is one of the most interesting songs the band has ever composed! I adore the interweaving guitar lines, and also think the intro bass/stick part is really astounding. Ade's lyrics and delivery I would never regard as "poppy"! In fact, they're some of the least poppy stuff he's written. I thank God for Ade's presence in the group, if it weren't for him, they'd get soooo bogged down with heavy serious stuff. They NEED Ade in there to lighten things up. They would become a serious bore without him. ANYWAY, on with my topic. I feel the five worst KC compositions are: 1. Heartbeat - utterly disposeable 80's synth pop, but without the synths. I really am bored to tears by this one. 2 Man with an Open Heart - Same exact reason, but less so 3 Moonchild - Bores me to tears, and as far as improv goes, anything from the Wetton era beats the buzungas out of this one. 4 Matte Kudasai - I also think this is like muzak to me, but with a bit of a cheesey surf style soft rock edge to it. I enjoy Ade's slide playing, but man, this is uninspired stuff. 5 Formentera Lady - This is the closest to really pretentious prog at it's worst that they've come. On a lighter note, here are my five favorites! 1 (tie) Larks Tongues Pt. II and Satori in Tangier - just by coincidence they're both instrumentals. What can be said? They rock more than I thought physically possible. 2 Fracture - A flawless work of composition and execution. 3 Level Five - What a kickass riff, so simple yet so damn cool. Plus, HUGE drum sound! 4 The Talking Drum - Okay, so it's not that compositionally exciting or complicated, but bugger all, it gets me jumping up and down with manic abandon every time! 5 Indiscipline - Out of control, ominous, yet somewhat pleasant as well. Just by coincidence they're damn near all instrumentals...nothing against any of KC's singers, but hey, when a song's good it's good. Also, about the new T Lev album, I think all the players are fantastic, but I really, really hate Larry Fast's synth playing on it! It drives me nuts! I can't help but think how much better it would be if he wouldn't use those incredibly cheesey synth tones! They sound so corny. I laughed hard during the first song, when those big Orchestra Hit things come in, it sounds like a bad, bad sci fi action sequence soundtrack. He's a talented player, but come on...those ridiculous tones have got to go. He'll probably make up for it live. Steve ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #951 ********************************