Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #949 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 949 Saturday, 2 March 2002 Today's Topics: Lament for Lament Great Deciever and Frame by Frame need a new home Women in Crimson faultless guitarist? The Bears Live in NYC Humble, inoffensive question regarding RF's stage persona Lizard Query GC / Bennett / Gurdjieff Worst KC tune Re: In your opinion, What is the King Crimson weakest composition? Re. In your opinion, What is the King Crimson weakest composition? Belew Covers Fripp I Resemble That Remark Re: beat Re: Good Music "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" The Wetton Era; the Crim in this moment Doctor Confused-Will-Be-My-Epitaph ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:21:50 EST From: GottaJibbootwo at aol dot com Subject: Lament for Lament This is my first post to Elephant Talk, and thought that this would be as good a time as any to bring a concern to light of mine after reading the In the Court of King Crimson book, by Sid Smith. In it, Smith says of the song Lament from SABB "...overall the track fails to add up to a convincing piece of writing", and that basically the music was weak in comparison to the lyrics. To this I highly disagree. The first time I heard SABB I was thoroughly delighted by the album, but Lament was one song that REALLY caught my interest. I still feel that the one particular break in the song where the handclaps come in is one of the few examples of truly ass-shaking funky stuff that Crimson have ever played. I also really really really love the opening moments where the violin and the guitar play the "happy" riff after each other. I don't know if it's just me but Lament is one of my fav Crimso songs of all time...what do you all think? Am I just odd? Let me know.... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:48:49 -0500 From: scott kevyn frank Subject: Great Deciever and Frame by Frame need a new home I have 2 well-taken care of Boxed sets that need a loving new home(s). The Great Deciever (original 1992 issue) and Frame by Frame. Both are complete with all discs, jewel cases, booklets, and cases/boxes. They have been well stored/ displayed in my room of ........Happiness........so they are in great condition. Why ????????? I am becoming bored and/or stagnant with pre-1981 Live Crim. I am still getting the KCCC selections, and will continue, but others I will find homes for. I have some others available. Email with any questions and I will reply promptly..........Take care......Scott. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:46:26 -0500 From: "Jim" Subject: Women in Crimson I think there's only been two women to record on a Crimson album. Judy Dybl who sang "I Talk to the Wind" on the "Young Person's Guide" record, basically an historical oddity. Paulina Lucas provided the ethereal soprano on the Sailor's Tale; I've always loved the interplay between her voice and Mel's sax. There have been some great female vocalists on some of the side projects however. To my ear, Terry Roche showed on Fripp's "Exposure", that she could carry the mellow tunes (Mary) and the heavy tunes (Exposure) equally well. Annette Peacock has some great vocals on Bill Bruford's "Feels Good to Me." Toyah did a creditable job on "Sunday All Over the World" singing with Robert and Trey, particularly on "Kneeling at the Shrine," and I love the interplay between her spoken voice and Robert's guitar on "The Lady or the Tiger." So, are there any women vocalists or musicians out there today that would add some interest to the current band? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:09:49 +0100 From: George Koopman Subject: faultless guitarist? Okay, if you like you can call Robert Fripp your favourite guitarist, but he's not faultless. I remember a crafty guitarist concert where RF twice stopped a song when some of the rascals incidently hit a wrong note. But the two occasions where RF made a mistake the songs were continued with an embarrassed smile from the master. He's only human.... By the way, maybe not best, but certainly a (Dutch) guitartalent to watch: Jesse van Ruller. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:26:58 -0500 From: Larry dot Torreggiani at PearsonTC dot com Subject: The Bears Live in NYC The Bears are possibly the best popband inAmerica. Iwas lucky enough to witness two shows at New Yorks' Mercury Lounge. It's a small room with great sound. The first show wa on a Sat. night. While waiting outside for the doors to open (to insure a good spot, of course) three of the four Bears came out after sound check. Drummer chris was absent. Requests for autographs and photos were directed at Adrian. He promised to oblige after the show. He then walked out to the middle of Houston street and flagged a cab. The three musicians piled in like the three stooges. Wearing their street clothes, I guess they went back to the hotel to change. The crowd was restless during the opening act, Richard X Heyman. It's not easy to open for Adrian and The Bears! Anyway, they came on and killed! They were amazing. Concentrating mainly on the new album, 'Car Caught fire', many tunes from the first album were also in the set. They were so fantastic, I had to go to the second show on Sunday night. Something told me to take a camera, and I got great first-row shots! Even got to meet Adrian and Bears after the show. They were gracious enough to mingle with the fans after the show. What a nice person Adrian is. My friend swore he saw David Bowie +1 on the guest list, but David was a no show. According to bearsmusic.com, they are planning another tour at the end of the summer. If you missed them this time around, do not make the same mistake twice. If this was a just world, The Bears would be one of the biggest groups around. Catch them before they go into hibernation again! larry torreggiani ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:46:13 -0500 From: lamneth at yorku dot ca Subject: Humble, inoffensive question regarding RF's stage persona My efforts to find a previously written answer to my question were unsuccessful, so if one exists, I would appreciate it if someone informed me of its whereabouts. My question is this: I saw King Crimson live for the first time fairly recently, and noticed that Robert Fripp's behavior on stage is rather unconventional, as I'm sure anyone reading this knows - facing the band, looking inconspicuous, etc. At first, I interpreted this as either introvertedness or humility. It has since occured to me that if either of these are the case, RF's behavior would actually be self defeating; in the context of a rock concert, few things could be more conspicuous. Therefore, I must conclude that the motivation for RF's behavior is something else entirely. He clearly possesses a good deal of self-awareness, so I cannot believe that this is sublimated egotism (like e.e. cummings writing entirely in lowercase). So, why then? Is there any purpose or conscious intent to it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:17:46 -0800 (PST) From: Geoff Davis Subject: Lizard Query Hi all, Well just to put my toe into the churning morass of Crim-trivia, does anyone know anything about the Lizard cover, apart from the obvious? There isn't anything in the Sid Smith book. I am the only one who rates this album? Spot the jazz 'references' ... Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:27:21 -0500 From: Joan Bull Subject: GC / Bennett / Gurdjieff In response to Mark Tucker's post about various methods of schooling: rather than write about something you have no firsthand knowledge of, why not verify for yourself? JoanBull ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:47:12 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Worst KC tune What's the worst KC number ever. That's an easy one. 'Lady of the Dancing Water' from Lizard. I know it was recorded a long time ago and times change but I thought it was rubbish when it came out. I just played it again to see whether it has improved with age. It hasn't. On the subject of world's worst here's one for you. The two worst bands in the world ever were Emerson Lake and Palmer and Asia. What do they have in common? Both formed by ex-KC bass players. Discuss. Gordon Taylor. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:46:10 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Darin Lemieux" Subject: Re: In your opinion, What is the King Crimson weakest composition? The Weakest, or the worst? There's a difference, you know. Being the proud owner of crim albums ITCOTCK, Lizard, LTIA, S&BB, Red and Discipline, and having basically heard the entire Crim catalogue in some means, I'd have to rank the following as weakest and worst in various categories: Lyrically: a) weakest: Tie: Elephant Talk and The Mincer. Now, I know the newsletter is named after it, but come on. There's nothing of value here except for possibly Belew reading a thesaurus. Ade's done great lyric work for tracks like People, Dinosaur, etc. But ET doesn't sound like Ade really cared too much for the song's lyrical quality - I guess why he says the lyrics are just "all talk". The Mincer just sounds like something Ricahrd Palmer-James had kicking around and unfinished and Wetton thought would sound cool with Law of Maximum Distress". b) worst: Ladies of the Road. Someone wanna tell me what the hell Peter Sinfield was thinking with this one? It seems like he just missed the mark on whatever he was trying to do with that one. Musically: a) weakest: Moonchild (or The Illusion, rather). This song starts out brilliantly with Moonchild, then progresses nicely into a soft instrumental known as "The Dream". Then somewhere along the way it hits "The Illusion" and things just get strange. The Illusion makes no muical sense - it basically sounds like the band hitting random notes. Call it art if you want, I just call it a weak effort at filling space on a 5 song record. b) worst: The Devil's Triangle. I know I'm gonna take some heat for this one. People ADORE this song - why? I have no idea. This song is the one reason why I have yet to and will never purchase In The Wake of Poseidon. Fripp attempts to create a 3 part musical symphony, and in the end winds up with a long piece that doesn't really do much. Too much attempts at making the mellotron the central instrument and not enough attention to the song it was the central part of. It kinda reminds me of the Beatles Revolution 9, actually. Tape reels of the chorus of "ITCOTCK" coming out of nowhere, music that really doesn't fit the rest of the album, and a basic sense of OK, are you guys done yet?" while this song goes on. Honestly, this album would have been better off making this piece shorter by about 3 minutes, and adding Groon to the track list. Althoguh, the studio capture of Groon sounds very random and undisciplined - with some work, it would've filled the void nicely. Sense of Flow (the song fitting the album): a) weakest: Lady of the Dancing Water. This song works with Lizard like Jamie Muir worked with the '73 band. Adds a nice touch, but just seems out of place. It would've worked alot better on another album, possibly with another singer. I liked Haskell for Cirkus, Indoor Games and Happy Family - but his voice can't quite nail the subleties of Lady of the Dancing water in the way he handled Cadence and Cascade. b) worst: The Mincer. This song just kinda comes out of nowhere, doesn't it? Not that it's bad (lyrically it could've used work) but it just seems really out of place. The album would've been fine without the song on there but doesn't suffer all that much from it's inclusion. Well, that's my take. Comments anyone? Darin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:43:33 -0500 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Subject: Re. In your opinion, What is the King Crimson weakest composition? I love King Crimson music. The lyrics have been fairly awful a few times. I think I have to give my votes to "Fallen Angel" and "TCOL" for most insipid lyrics. I am thinking specifically of Switchblade stings in one tenth of a moment Better get back to the car from "Fallen Angel." This is so colossally stupid....that it speaks for itself. I suspect that certain band members agree with my assessment, since I seem to remember that "Fallen Angel" is one of a very, very short list of KC songs that have never been publicly performed. It is a shame, because the music in the second half of the song is in fact quite powerful. TCOL gets my vote for the infamously stupid and distracting "penis of an alien" line. In fact this phrase gets a double vote because it seriously damages an otherwise entirely brilliant song. Just my two cents worth. Now we can begin the countdown to the termination of this thread, as it has all the earmarks of one destined for death by Toby *smile*. Rick. -- Rick Bunker rick at bunker dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:53:03 -0500 From: Tim Subject: Belew Covers Fripp > When has Adrian covered a song that Robert performed the original guitar > part? > Though not technically a "cover" I suppose, I remember on the Beat tour seeing Adrian do the solo in Sartori in Tangiers. As I watched, I thought, "Huh, I thought Fripp played that." In later tours Fripp did take the solo role back, but seeing Adrian play it that one time was interesting (pulled it off quite well if memory serves!). Belew has often done other KC covers on his own, notably acoustic versions of Dinosaur and Cage-so I guess they qualify to. A related question just as interesting: Can anyone share any songs from non-KC material (either Fripp or Belew) that either borrows from or foreshadows a King Crimson song? Here's my list: 1) Adrian Belew-Paint the Road (Twang Bar King) Opening rhythm guitar is Belew's Thela Hun Ginjeet part 2) Fripp-North Star (Exposure) You can hear the genesis of Matte Kudasai 3) Fripp-I Advance Masked (I Advanced Mask) Similar pattern to Neurotica in middle-(the Discipline/Elephant Talk theme also recurs several times in slightly different variations throughout this album and other Fripp work) 4) Fripp-Breathless (Exposure) A variation of the main theme from Red. The lead in to the middle section is also the Neurotica theme also heard in I Advance Masked 5) You can also hear the 5 against 7 cycling theme from Thrak in several Guitar Craft pieces-that was one of the group exercises from the courses (according to Eric Tamm's book which contains an exquisite notation) I'm sure there are many more. Does anyone have any others? These are really interesting to hear, especially the songs where you can hear the seeds of a later KC song being planted. You can also pick this up in many recent improvs (both KC and Projekts). Most notably, you can often hear the themes from Frying Pan in brief flashes in many pre-TCOL improvs. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:05:43 -0600 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: I Resemble That Remark In an earlier issue some jack started yammering about Loving Crimson as much......BUT! blah, blah, blah.... concerned about new direction, blah, blah, especially the Level5 release, blah, blah, blah. I believe a simple "Move on" is appropriate here. I was lucky enough to see Level5 twice this year at separate venues. And I must admit, I left confused about the music and the bands future. Nothing new to a KC fan as I look back over the years. After listening to this music many times, I began to become exited about the new material. Again, nothing new for a weathered KC fan. Then some Geek started blowing his horn about MP3ing all his Crimson stuff..... AND! blah, blah, blah...... don't bother with CD's anymore. Well, I don't have time for all this download and rip-off MP3 shit. I have enough trouble making time to create copies of CD's (I OWN) for enjoying in a hazardous environment (i.e. Car, Beach, Kids). However, I have been enjoying viewing wave forms and spectrum analyses on GREAT Crimson tunes such as 'Virtuous Circle' from Level5. I find this exceptional piece to be nearly as interesting to look at as it is to listen to. Heavenly to experience them simultaneously. Try Nero5 Burning ROM and see music in a new way. Next I'll tell mister "WRITE A #%&*ing POP SONG".... lower your voice. Take a #%&*ing pill. What's your #%&*ing point? No one has mentioned STEVE MORSE' name in recent debate. Although his 'Major Impact' release is very much along the lines of the closed topic. And to all you "I'm a musician and I know" wanna be's out there. Check with me before you go assuming the throne. Toby: Maybe you should make all opinionated, intellectual, properly punctuated and spelled rambling off topic. :) And further more I...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah,...... blah, blah, blah, blah........ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:58:40 -0600 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: Re: beat "Here's another thought. I like to believe that those of us who listen to progressive rock do so because we have an ear for what's good and for what we like. On the other hand, I often find myself liking songs or even whole albums that deep down I know I wouldn't listen to if it weren't done by one of "my bands." Anyone else want to admit to this?" I think I know what you mean. It's like listening to Nursery Cryme just because it's an old Genesis record. Of course, it's better than a lot of other stuff you could fill your ears with. But it's not nearly as good as Trick of a Tail, Selling England by the Pound, or even Foxtrot. We all have favorite bands and are sometimes blind to their shortcomings, but I don't know if that's always necessarily a bad thing. Jonathon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:17:41 -0500 From: "Nik Smith" Subject: Re: Good Music Well first off, "everyone has the right to their own opinion" blah blah blah blah, anyway.It seems that you don't like anything progressive, then why are you posting? If you like your music simple, then so be it, but don't tell us what is wrong with music we've liked for a period (extensive, or just getting into it) of time and get massive enjoyment out of. Just because I like Prog-Rock, doesn't mean I dismiss ALL ELSE THAT ISN'T PROG. I like LOADS of different kinds of music. But one of the beauties of prog-rock is that it is SOOO MANY different kinds of music melted into one terrific kind of music, If you don't understand prog-rock for what it is and deem it "pretentious" or "bombastic" or "or whatever other critic-inspired slander you can conjure up just because they can actually play their instruments and add music lines that sound like classical music, then your HUGE loss, but don't tell me (I don't think I'm alone here) what we think and how we think towards music, and how we approach it. You don't know that, and (at the sake of sounding rude) are talking out of your ass and you should take your musical ignorance elsewhere. -Nik ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:44:40 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)" Ron asked about a cd called "The Guide to Larks' Tongue In Aspic (part 1-4)". This intrigued me so I made a Google search with those key words and got only 3 hits. The first one at http://www.russiancd.net/files/cdijkl.htm was updated, i.e. the webmaster had removed the cd from it's page, so I went to Google's cache to see the originally scanned page at http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:9qSOi4ZMl5UC:www.russiancd.net/files/cd ijkl.htm+%22Guide+to+Larks%27+Tongues+In+Aspic%22&hl=en . It's in a kind of "Russian CDs" web site. What can this be? Bootlegs? Unautorized copies and compilations? The second hit, at http://musicnn.fromru.com/new3 , was again a simple list from a russian web site. The third hit, at http://altmusic.boom.ru/news_archiv_december01.html , was the most informative. There, one finds a small jpg of the cd and a short commentary in russian: A`King Crimson - The Guide To Larks' Tongues In Aspic, 2001 (DDu DcNDcNDu NND D.DoD~DoD2D D Du DcD.D'DoD DcDu D2 D'DcNDoD D3NDoNDcNN. DD.D'DoD D "D DuDPD'ND DoND D'D ND NND -DoD'ND~D D King Crimson". DSND D D~ NND D DcD.D'DoD DcDc D'ND DoDuN D D D~DuNN DoNDcD?D?, D N, D DoD2DuND D Du, NDoD ND ND.D DoDuD D Do NDoDiNDu DGM.)A'. Using altavista's bablefish, this is the crude translation that I got: A`(do not search for this amusing publication in diskografiyakh. Is published by " international Fan- cloud/club King Chrimson ". What about this publication thinks Robert Fripp, we, probably soon learn on the site DGM.) A'. I can't find it on the DGM web site. Seems unauthorized to me. But we'll see what our fearless and raging leader has to say, if he does comment. About Eric Oliver's query about a variety of maple called Crimson King. It is Acer platanoides 'Crimson King', i.e. the Crimson King Norway Maple. You can see small ones at http://www.tripleoaks.com/treeguide/Acrimsonking.html . There's a close up at http://www.loneelder.com/sales/PicPages/Ac_pl_CrimsonKing.html . It's quite commonly seen in and around where I live here in southern Quebec, wether in urban or rural settings. I saw on the ET web site at http://www.elephant-talk.com/sighting.htm a pic of a plaque with the name of this tree on it. This variety was created prior to 1969 so it's not impossible that the name of the group King Crimson came from the name of this tree, but I doubt it. Only Pete Sinfield could tell us because it's him who came up with the name of the group. So Pete, how about replying to this post? Did you know of the existence of this tree in '69? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:49:27 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: The Wetton Era; the Crim in this moment >I'm all of a sudden really into the John Wetton era of KC, and I was wondering if he did anything as good or almost as good before King Crimson... I would recommend Family "Fearless", Wetton/Palmer-James "Monkey Business" and Wetton's "Kings Road" - if after those three you are still curious, you are a more intent collector than I. >Sure, I like "Beat", like y'all, etc, but what concerns me, particularly, is the Crim In This Moment.. I think that is as it should be. >Rather than discuss who's the "Best whatever", I'd like to see some thoughts about This Moment and perhaps the Near Future of the Crim and similar music, and what we, as listeners, as musicians, as artists, as Humans can do to maintain the Push in 'Progressive' music. I wish them good luck and continued success during their next round of recording. >BTW, I feel Trey's solo material is quite excellent and engaging. Perhaps the Crim can cue from him! I hope this Crimson continues to have enough elbow room for all four guys. - S. np: Andy Partridge, the bull with the golden guts scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:12:55 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: Doctor Confused-Will-Be-My-Epitaph Man, I am amazed at how some of the guys out there don't know how to search the web on an even basic level. For lyrics to Doctor Diamond go to http://www.elephant-talk.com/releases/tgd.htm , it's all there. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #949 ********************************