Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #945 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 945 Friday, 22 February 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Favorite bassists? Mine was born in 1685 Not to Beat a Dead Horse Craig Armstrong; Bjorn J:son Lindh; Dick Heath; PJ Crook CGT Quartet w/Richard Leo Johnson; Dillinger Escape Plan; Joe Satriani, Fripp best guitarist? help us, toby... Tony's Not The Only One.... Tony Levin tour - 'discount' tickets to Coach House guitarists/bassists/drummers ot michael hedges reference #943 Re: greatest musician Guitar duos KCCC #18 Trade/Sell Egalitarian Treacle Re: A bit more on "Best" Guitarists! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:42:06 -0500 From: "Stick Man" Subject: Re: Favorite bassists? Mine was born in 1685 Regarding bassists - I are one, and I can think of lots of heroes. However, I thought we should pay tribute to my favorite bass writer and that is JS Bach. His lines are elegant, indestructible, and educational. The pieces he has written for cello sound great and make for good agility exercise on the bass, even if they are transposed. Plus, the Stick is tuned sort of like an upside-down cello and if I keep eating my Wheaties I might be able to rip out some lines on that too. Hey, it just occurred to me that playing cello lines on an instrument with inverse tuning is kind of like Jimi playing the strat upside-down because he was left handed. Uh oh... a 6 degrees of separation thing with Bach and Hendrix is happening in my head. I am sure the Star Spangled Banner fits into this somehow... Ah... Bach. Stickman -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:55:44 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Not to Beat a Dead Horse I'm not going to disagree with those who slag "Beat", or agree with those who praise it, because what you like and what you don't like is totally subjective. Once, I didn't like spinach. Now I can't get enough of the stuff. I have always liked "Beat." In fact, as much as I loved "Discipline" when it came out, I actually liked "Beat" better. I liked "Heartbeat" and "Neal and Jack and Me" (but then, I still like "Ticket to Ride" and "You Can't Do That"). And I thought the tour for "Beat" was better, not because the playing had necessarily elevated (although the band had probably gelled some) but because that foursome had more of its own material to draw from. Seeing them at the pier in '82 (or '83?) in NYC-- Whomp! Whoosh! One word of advice I will offer for "Beat" appreciation, though. Take it to the beach with a portable stereo and headphones, on a very hot day. I remember spending many summer afternoons in 1982, baking under the hot sun, listening to "Beat", and it was just right. But then, I still like Abbey Road. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:30:45 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Craig Armstrong; Bjorn J:son Lindh; Dick Heath; PJ Crook >I just picked up a promo copy of Craig Armstrong new cd 'As If To Nothing', which I believe will be out next month. <[ large portion of very informative post snipped ] >But of interest to you all here is Starless II. Taking the opening from Starless (the bit where the theme is introduced by Robert) he transforms it into an even more beautiful piece of music, with the addition of strings and beats on to Crim original piece (and no we are not talking muzak here). Some may think it sacrilege to 'rearrange' a piece of Crim lore, but I think Mr. Armstrong as done a great job of it. And who knows it could lead some people out there to 'discover' the Crim. Thanks for calling our attention to this, Mr. Brown. I wonder if Mr. Fripp or Mr. Wetton have heard this? I certainly would like to, based on your description. >"np: "Bruse hogre llilla a" by Bjorn Jason Lindh" >Bjorn J:son Lindh's "Brusa hogre lilla a" (there should be dots here and there, but since this is an international newsletter we'll skip the dots) [ laughter! ] I only skipped the dots because I don't know where they go! Sorry, I wish I did. The music sure is great. Janne Schaffer is a great guitarist. >For the fusionminded among you, may I recommend Dick Heath's weekly radio show on Tuesday evenings between 8pm and 10pm GMT. Go to www.lborosu.org.uk/lcr and check it out! Mr. Heath is a font of information - all good. I wish I could hear his show! >So I tought that the fans might be interested know the fact that the titles of those paintings are available now. Some have the same title as the album name, some not. Eye candy and ear candy come together with music albums. Thanks for sharing your correspondence with PJ Crook. Indeed those are art pieces that stand on their own, they don't just exist to adorn CD covers. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:38:27 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: CGT Quartet w/Richard Leo Johnson; Dillinger Escape Plan; >I saw California Guitar Trio last year (or was it 2+ years ago?!?!) at the Bottom Line in NYC with special guest Tony Levin. Great show of course. I'm wondering WHO the guitarist was that opened the show - he's left a lasting impression and I want to search for recordings of his. Thanks in advance to anyone that responds. That was in October of 1999, and it was Richard Leo Johnson - I was there too! >I just wanted to bring some attention to a recent band that I've discovered that I thought some Crimson fans would have interest in. Keep in mind though they are hardcore metal, and not for the weak of heart :) They're called Dillinger Escape Plan. Their most recent release "Calculating Infinity" is one of the most technically minded albums I've heard in a long time. Thanks for calling them to our attention sir. >I heard that Bruford played once with "Nation Health" but haven't been able to find any confirmation for that. Does anybody know anything like that? If he did - was it just an occasion or what? You can hear the recorded evidence on National Health's "Missing Pieces". - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:08:06 From: "Dave Gruska" Subject: Joe Satriani, Fripp This is a reply to Alexander MacKinnon's post stating that Joe Satriani's music is "ultimately pointless". First off, I don't see how any music is "ultimately pointless" - I think that any music that is enjoyed at least by one person - even the person who wrote it - has served it's purpose. Anyway, Alec writes that Satch's music is "stuff you've heard before" and implies that the playing is overly technical (though he does point out that the music is exciting and well-executed, with which I have to agree). I'm assuming that Mr. MacKinnon hasn't heard songs like "The Forgotten (part 2)" (the most intense and emotional song I've ever heard), "Borg Sex" (featuring an otherworldly "male" and "female" guitar call and answer), "I Am Become Death" (all parts of this song - guitar, bass, drums were created with just a guitar), "Time" (a fascinating multi odd-time signature piece), and countless others, all of which definitely do not fall into any traditional formula that I've ever heard before. And while they are technically difficult, the songs are never overshadowed or compromised by this. I know that if you listen to King Crimson, you are well used to fascinating off-the-wall music, but Satriani's work is just as interesting and unconventional in it's own right. If you have only heard some of Satriani's more popular work (Satch Boogie, Summer Song, etc.), I think you will be pleasantly surprised by his other work. FYI, the "Time Machine" CD is a great way to get a good sample of the genius material that Satch is capable of. BTW, Satriani has confirmed with a post on his web site that Robert Fripp will appear on Satriani's new album, so it appears that at least Fripp does not view Satch's music as "ultimately pointless"... Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:10:29 +0100 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: best guitarist? help us, toby... good evening hippies, anybody else hoping that toby finds the "dead threat button" soon? or: can anybody help with a "great guitarist namedropping website" to redirect the experts? yours sincerely roderich ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:05:48 -0500 From: "Julie Spokus" Subject: Tony's Not The Only One.... As far as innovative rock bassists go (I am a bassist also)here's my list: Paul McCartney - the original rock bassist where everything stems from John Entwhistle - the earliest player in rock to get "a little more complex" Bill Wyman - half of maybe the steadiest,grooviest r n' r rhythm section ever, and love that stance,didn't The Smithereens right a line about that. Burke Shelley - anybody remember Budgie ? Geezer Butler - my inspiration in my early days Geddy Lee - brought prog bass to metal Mick Karn - slippery fretless groove,from glam punker to serious musician in a few albums Pete Cruikshank - The Groundhogs bassist in their classic years, paired with Tony McPhee and Ken Pustelnik,what a combo! Les Claypool - how can you leave him off any list Stanley Clarke - THE original fusion pioneer John Spokus Baltimore, MD USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:53:09 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Tony Levin tour - 'discount' tickets to Coach House [Unknown MIME type or encoding (text/html), contents not processed] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:09:29 -0800 (PST) From: ted hageman Subject: guitarists/bassists/drummers hello everyone... I have been lurking for just over a year now and wanted to comment on some of the recent talk concerning great musicians. I certainly have strong feelings on who I believe to be among them...but find it ineresting researching on some people I have not heard of before reading some recent posts. With drummers: bruford, moon, peart, copeland, andy white, and Mark Brzezicki (i know him from pete townshend) with guitarists: lifeson, page, fripp, peter buck (REM), richards, gilmour.... To me, there are so many guitarists that I love that have no technical ability whatsoever...like richards from the stones, i mean, on one level he sucks, but man can he come up with some cool riffs that FEEL so right. The same with Peter buck from REM, pretty simple things, but he is always picking, never plays all chords like so many of todays "hard rock" bands. with bassists: entwistle, bruce, geddy lee, tony butler (especially on "all the best cowboys have chinese eyes" by pete townshend), Ted ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:17:15 From: "Spear man" Subject: ot michael hedges I gotta say my alltime favorite michael hedges was a windham hill broadcast called something like 'live at the wolf trap'--this as I recall had several live michael hedges pieces not just the two offered on the 'evening with windham hill' or whatever that is relatively readily available. I contacted nomadland.com some time ago and never got a reponse from them about the availability/lack thereof of the wolf trap show. I'll ask anyway--anyone have the wolf trap show in any format? does anyone know what I'm talking about. ;) --spearman (grovelling ot for m.h.) np The Grid 4,5,6 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:13:28 -0800 From: "dchetkin" Subject: reference #943 I must comment on the topic of the greatest musicians in the minds of K.C. heads, as being a drummer for 30 years off and on, I had the pleasure of attending some pretty stellar concerts at the un ripe age of 14 and 15. Yes, Led Zeppelin and Jethro Tull to name a few. Yes with Steve Howe and Bruford showcasing Fragile and 2nd billed to Black Sabbath. Led Zeppelin in 72 who did not need a warm up act and Jethro Tull who did not need one either while performing Thick. Bruford was by far the most distinguishable drummer I had ever witnessed. Of course later on he pretty much left alot of his contemporaries in perspective, not neccesarily in flash and excessive drum rolls and double metal assault but in the way he applied his ever widening technique and substance and emotions as he ventured into more musical directions and journeys than his rivals. Bonham to me was the Tony Williams of rock drumming, who had more rhythm, pulse and compassion coming from one hand than double drummers had in 2 feet. Technicality is not always an issue. After listening to the extensive T. Williams catalog, I find more impressive his improvisational insight into soloing in the middle of a complex jazz signature and favor him over Buddy Rich who if one listens to his live material will find Buddy dropping out in the middle of a drum fill and wondering what to do next. Oddly enough, the very first drum solo which impressed the most in concert was Tull's Barlow who flawlessly executed a tasty, precise and timely drum work out; unlike Bonham. I love Bozzio but after seeing a few Jeff Beck concerts I express dis like for drummers who solo and do 64th note drum fills throughout the song. There is indeed a time and place for it. But I prefer it coming from guitarists like Steve Howe, Holdsworth or Steve Morse. Speaking of the Dregs, Rod Morgenstein and Steve Morse are the modern day Hendrix and Mitch Mitchell who paint pictures for each other and know how to compliment each other and play locked in like a glove as if they are 1 person or 2 minds thinking the same thoughts. Each and every one of you owe it to yourself to see the DREGS live who now employ Jerry Goodman from Mahavishnu on violin. There isn't a violinist who can touch him. I miss the Double Trio immensley and feel they were by far the most superior live performing band that has ever braced the rock and roll stage. After the Greek Theatre Los Angeles show in 1996 a lot of people walked out of there in a daze and utterly amazed at how a sextet rock and roll band could perform polyrhythmically like an orchestra. I wish Los Angeles was not so lost. I seek other players who would be interested in performing in this manner. Anybody out there???? 1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 0:24:12 +0000 From: james dot mclarnon at ntlworld dot com Subject: Re: greatest musician As a recent subscriber the newsletter I find it makes interesting reading. Regarding the greatest musician debate, two names - Miles Davis and John Coltrane. The music they created seperately and together is some of the most intense available. Anyone interested should check out Bitches Brew by Miles Davis or A Love Supreme by John Coltrane, both are worthy additions to any collection. Also, regarding the greatest bassist debate. Surely Geddy Lee, John Entwistle and Greg Lake warrant a mention. Entwistle in particular was one of the first "rock" bassists to treat the electric bass as a lead instrument and not just an unheralded part of the rhythm section. James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:50:47 -0600 From: "JAMES CHRISTIANSEN" Subject: Guitar duos How about Glen Tipton & K.K. Downing of Judas Priest as well as Kerry King and Jeff Hannemann of SLAYER ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:55:41 -0800 From: "Kevin Fleming" Subject: KCCC #18 Trade/Sell I have the KCCC #18 "King Crimson-Live in Detroit, 1971" available for trade or sell. I am looking to trade it for any of the following: KCCC #17 "ProjeKct Two", KCCC #16 "Live in Berkeley, 1982", or Robert Fripp -"November Suite". If interested please email me at kevinsf at earthlink dot net -Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:11:55 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Egalitarian Treacle To those whining about the horrifying unfairness of people nominating candidates for 'best' guitarist: Who are you kidding? With all the fawning, drivelous, wet-pantsed, oh-gosh-oh-golly-oh-gee, giddy I-just-can't-believe-it-oh-I'm-swooning!!!! concert reports that get published in ET, you're gonna bitch about people who posit that one or more guitarists might actually be an embodiment of superior talent? Grow up. This pouty effeminate egalitarianism is for NPR, not a forum concerned with quality in art and music. Is it possible that some artists are vastly better than others? Oh horrors!!!! Say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so! Where have you people been living? Saccharine City, Treaclenia? Jesus, this perfervidly limp crap has got to go. Believe it or not, practitioners of everything are better and worse to varying degree than others of their ilk. Usually, you catch this everyone-is-equal lunacy from individuals whose own talents are median at best - it's a way to force the achievers and overachievers down to a level of mediocrity on par with the declaimer and gain a tepid respect by default. Ask any musician who he thinks is better than he is and you'll get a list...so we're supposed to pay serious attention when a buncha yattering politically and socially correct shrews say this isn't so? Get real. I'll listen to the musicians rather than a buncha arrested-growth cases miscasting the world in their image. Ask guitarists who they think is the best guy around and the name Jim Hall comes up more often than others, though you'll never see it mentioned here because he isn't featured on MTV or the cover of Teen Rave. Yet, we have to read that it's impossible for there to be one or more best guitarists. Christ. One thing I've learned beyond doubt: all the mealy-mouths who decry in this fashion, when you catch them away from their computer, are the most judgemental clowns on the face of the earth, and most often with little or no wherewithal to render their opinions. At least those who hazard opinions on the top dawg are being honest, the rest are hypocrites of the lowest stripe. Save the noble postures for your mothers... although I doubt they're fooled either. Quality exists, craft exists, and superiority exists, get used to it. Aim for it yourself one day and you might find yourself embarassed later with your mindset now. The rest of us, what few of us there are, aren't going to hold our collective breath waiting, though. If nothing else, you'll be in plentiful, if poor, company. -Mark Tucker- Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:07:35 EST From: LabCSA at aol dot com Subject: Re: A bit more on "Best" Guitarists! Dear E-Ters, You have all named many tremendous guitarists including, of course, our friend & fearless-leader Robert Fripp! Applying the adjective "best" to any guitarist, of any genre, is probably fruitless, as the guitar becomes a different instrument in the hands of whomever plays it at that moment...examples we have discussed include my friend & fellow Oklahoman, the late Michael Hedges. 8-( Truly a lovely spirit he was! However, I believe future music-historians will look favourably upon Bob Fripp as one of the most influential guitarists of 20th & 21st Century music for these reasons: (a) The earliest King Crimson developed a new art form, blending jazz, rock and classical music-forms into a powerful & emotional movement! Fripp followed groundwork laid by the Beatles and others, but the blending of electric and acoustic guitars, Mellotron and jazz rhythm section predated virtually all other "prog" bands... (b) During the past 30+ years, Fripp continued his musical evolution and refined both his technique & approach to the instrument ("wires on wood" to use his phrase!). He carried this to the point of developing his own THOROUGHLY unique tuning based upon the design, logic and limitations of the guitar...how many other guitarists have gone to this extreme? (c) Finally, through his Guitar Craft classes and ensembles such as League of Crafty Guitarists & California Guitar Trio, Fripp has proven himself as a mentor and teacher of younger guitarists. As a bandmate of one of his students, I can attest to the power of Bob's teachings, including discipline, dedication to craft, and respect for fellow man and woman. Too many musicians have lost the art of bestowing their hard-earned lessons to the next generation, and their influence becomes lost in history. We pay tribute to Muddy Waters, Andres Segovia, and many more who took the time and effort to cultivate students & pass along valuable insights!! Robert Fripp is arguably the best of the modern-music mentors, founding a school to continue his work...please visit www.guitarcraft.com for more information on this historically important gift! In conclusion, we all have our favorite guitarists, and personal choices for "Best Guitarist". I would surely vote Robert Fripp as a leading candidate for "Best," if such were possible!! Show me any other guitarist who can play Fripp's music faultlessly at gig after gig, night after night as he does!! Cheers & Blessings to you all, Charles Stack, Chicago IL ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #945 ********************************