Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #942 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 942 Monday, 18 February 2002 Today's Topics: The Bears are out of Hibernation!!! Re: Daevid Allen Re: Eric Johnson / The Electromagnets (Austin, TX `74) Earthworks-Gig in Cologne Beat Re: BEAT Giles guitarists 30th anniversary edition = how imptoved is the sound? Level 5 custom & Japanese - & Live in Nashville 2001 Michael Hedges GG&F Re: Michael Hedges 1-900-Call-Josette Tony's not the only one... Favorite bassists? Re: guitar teams Guitar Teams, age-ism Re: The Bears Anniversary LP? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:48:17 EST From: BFingerville at aol dot com Subject: The Bears are out of Hibernation!!! I attended a Bears concert on Feb.8th in Ashville,N.C. and was blown completely away!!!I bought the first two bears albums(on vinyl) when they were originally released and then was fortunate enough to see them in '88.It was one of the most energetic shows I have ever seen.I believe that the name of the club was "Park Elevator".It was a small venue,and because the band was billed simply as "The Bears"(with no mention of "Belew"anywhere on the marquee),the crowd was sparse.It made for a very personal,up close performance.Also,the bar had just opened and they really hadn't even finished the place yet.The bathrooms were Port-o-Lets and there was no air conditioning.It was August and it must have been 95 degrees inside.The band were real troopers!Not only did the heat not deter the band,but I believe that it actually fueled their energy!The boys never stopped jumping up and down.Sweat was flying everywhere!Despite the heat,I will always remember that show as being second only to the Crimso shows that I have attended.This year the boys were 14 years older and I knew that they would have slowed somewhat.Although there was less leaping about on stage,the music hadn't lost a solitary speck of energy!They were HOT(with AC,this time!)Of special note-The Bears played a killer version of "Red".It was the first time that I had ever heard the song played with a bowed,up-right bass on the bridge.It sounded excellent!!!Let me close this letter with the suggestion to all that if you get the opportunity to see The Bears live,enjoy the show!!! Lamar Brown ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:09:39 -0600 From: Craig Subject: Re: Daevid Allen HULLODER! >Daevid Allen - Soft Machine, Gong, Solo and University of Errors amongst >other collaborations. Daevid Allen is very very psychedelic and is pretty >well known for his style. He often sounds like early Pink Floyd. He was developing his own glissando style at the same time as Syd was. (BTW, the recent A&E Legends show, a one hour feature on Syd Barrett, was excellent!) >He was >never recorded with Soft Machine Incorrect! Daevid recorded quite a few pieces w/ them. He just never made it to "Volume One". ...(His earliest Softs solos were rather embarassing though). You need to pick up a copy of the Softs` early singles compilation LP called "Jet-propelled Photographs". Very formative/crude early psych-pop, but absolutely charming. A must own. ~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:40:27 -0600 From: Craig Subject: Re: Eric Johnson / The Electromagnets (Austin, TX `74) >Eric Johnson is by far the best live guitarist I've ever seen (and I've seen >a few such as Fripp, Belew, Howe, Morse, Rabin, and a host of others). His >clean sound and incredible compositions have always impressed me. If there >is a drawback to Eric, its that he takes years and years to make an album >(at least five). Well, talk about synchronicity..........! Someone here may want this........ I just obtained a *beautiful* copy M(-)/ M(-) of his first one (the LP "The Electromagnets"). What a band!!! No Fripp sounds used, no Krimson moves, but Jeff Beck and John McLaughin were certainly major influences on young (21 year old) Eric. This was a strong, creative fusion band w/ it`s own voice. Of a calibre w/ the best of the day, (ie RTF, Mahavishnu, Weather Report, The Eleventh House, etc...., it`s a long lost classic, recorded in Austin, TX. in 1974. As much as I hate to, I`ve decided to part with this very rare gem. (It will be up for sale soon, .........if interested send me a private email). >P.S. If anyone can direct me to a bootleg of one of the >shows Trey did with Eric a few years back, I would be grateful. The "b" word is discouraged in these parts. ....Call `em 'fanclub recordings'. 8^D ~C ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:48:49 +0100 From: "armjacq" Subject: Earthworks-Gig in Cologne Hello there, as far as I know the "Deutschlandradio" will broadcast a live-gig from Bill Bruford's Earthworks in Cologne (Germany) from the germany-tour 2002. The date is 18 march 2002 somewhere in the evening. So....check it out and stay tuned. greetings armin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:30:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "N.J.WHITTAKER" Subject: Beat Hi y'all, I have 2 say that 4 the record 'Beat' is definitely my least favourite KC album. Purely a subjective thing but i dont just think of it as a poor album by KC's standards (ie. gd compared 2 'lesser artists'), but i regard it as a poor album generally! I cant tell u all how horrified i was when i 1st heard the song 'Heartbeat' which IMHO is 1 of the most insipid pieces of radio friendly pop i've ever heard! Please dont flame me 4 my opinions (although im sure some of u will!). I do moments of 'Beat' such as 'neurotica', 'howler' & 'requiem' but generally i cant say im a big fan. Of course its all v well played & arranged etc its just that i cant say i find that much pleasure in listening 2 it all. Wasnt that a really bad time 4 the band as well? I have a memory of reading something about RF being locked out of the studio by the others @ 1 point. Was that the case? Later, Nick Whittaker 'Never throw water on a fat fire, it'll take your face off', Alan Partridge (1997) np: KING CRIMSON, Islands ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:35:27 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Jackson Subject: Re: BEAT BEAT is one of my favorite album because it proves that pop/rock music can be much more than bubble-gumed filled silly love songs. It took commerical music to a new height & depth unheard of. If only more artists would seek such paths. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:45:46 +0000 From: Jeremy Robinson Subject: Giles Fascinating interview with Pete Giles at the King Crimson newsgroup at yahoo.groups.com. The URL is (or summat like it): ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:18:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Alexander MacKinnon Subject: guitarists I don't read ET for two weeks and this thread is still going. I think it's really a conversation fit for the later segment of an evening in the pub. Although I'm at home and comparatively sober I can't resist joining in. Of course, as many have said, it's a completely pointless discussion. Even if a particular guitarist can be justified as 'greatest' according to some value system, many will start from different values. So these discussions never end. People who think of themselves as 'guitarists' will focus on technical things. I guess that's why Joe Satriani was mentioned. Stuff you've heard before, but never executed so well. Sort of exciting sometimes, but ultimately pointless. For me, a 'great guitarist' would be a great musician first, somebody who lets the music flow, who speaks with their own voice, and a 'guitarist' second. I think Neil Young is a 'great guitarist', although he's somewhere near the bottom of the pile technically, goes on a wee bit too long sometimes, but he knows the notes and sounds he wants to play, to do their job in his music, and he can usually play them in the right order without too many fluffs and nasty noises. Comes straight and straightforwardly from the heart, apparently. Fripp gets there sometimes, often with technique in reserve. The whole Soundscapes project is about music first and technique second. A couple of the outings that resemble 'guitar solos' on Thrakattak are pretty potent. The technique is there if the music wants it but only in service. But some of his best bits, I think, are not 'guitarist' bits but collective creation in which the guitarist does his bit, like the title track of SABB. Allan Holdsworth, well, he's brilliant with the right people. I saw him in 1978 in the Glasgow School of Art, with John Stevens and Jeff Clyne, stalwarts of the London free jazz scene, and John Taylor the pianist, of Azimuth, and with these wise old buggers around him he was brilliant. A similar quartet, with Gordon Beck on piano instead, recorded a BBC session which was released under the name 'Conversation Piece', a superb sort of rocky free jazz many people on this list would love. But on his own he turns into a 'guitarist'. I saw UK about the same time, Strathclyde University Union. The support, an English band of the time called the Fabulous Poodles, sort of satirical/comedy rock band, introduced one of their songs by dedicating it to all Allan Holdsworth fans in the audience. My mates were all very amused when it turned out to be about masturbation. Bill Frisell I can't see past. Sublime, he makes a fantastic racket with the soul of a poet and a huge sense of musical architecture. The - apparently unavailable - 'Power Tools' record should be a big favourite here, rock god free jazz of a sort he now seems to shy away from. And a use of digital delay technology that is quite parallel to Soundscapes, real-time in the midst of threshing improvisation. Their unchaining of Unchained Melody has to be heard. Pat Metheny too, on the Song X record with Ornette Coleman - not (jazz/)rock but music of irresistible force - and in the trio with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland, head, heart, hands, all together as a conduit for music. Don't like the Pat Metheny Band though. But at this end of things we're heading into a different genre altogether. The sociology of the music listeners becomes different and only guitarists, probably, would ever debate 'great'. Hope my prejudices have been no more boring than anybody elses. Alec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:47:44 -0000 From: "Chmayssani Naji" Subject: 30th anniversary edition = how imptoved is the sound? Hi and sorry if this has been dealt with before. Have the newly remastered 30th anniversary editions enough improvement on the sound quality to make me want to buy the KC collection again? I've got In the court / Lark's tongues "definitive edition" (early 90s remaster?) In the wake/Lizard/Island "30th anniv edition" Starless/Red early CD version (late 80s?) Discipline/3 of a perfect pair on vinyl and a copy of Frame by frame on CD Do I spend all my money on the 30th anniv editions or is it not REALLY worth it? thx Naji Chmayssani Belgium ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:05:35 +0300 From: "WWN" Subject: Level 5 custom & Japanese - & Live in Nashville 2001 Hi! Has anybody listened to Live in Nashville 2001, November 9 & 10 (The 19th Collectors' Club release - February, 2002) yet? They say that some bonus tracks from Japanese Level 5 (eleKtriK, for example) are released in Live in Nashville too. Maybe the search for Japanese Level 5 turns into monkey business now? I've just purchased custom Level 5 CD - it was impossible to find it earlier here in Russia (to compare: I've bought TCOL in Moscow 14 May 2000, but had to look for ProjeKctX till June 2001 (!), for Heavy ConstuKction - till April 2001, for Vroom-Vroom - till January 2002). A long time to wait... I believe that very our grandchildren will live to hear Nuovo Metal. **************************************** |/ | |\ | /_ / |\ | |\ /| /_ /\ |\ | |\ | | \| \/ \/ |\ | | \/ | / \/ | \| **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:46:32 EST From: Gongwoman at aol dot com Subject: Michael Hedges Response to post: Neil Wicker wrote (ET #940) that Michael Hedges died in 1997. What incredibly sad news this was to me. My wife and I saw him live no less than 3 times, and he always put on an incredibly satisfying and entertaining show. We have often wondered why we hadn't heard anything from him recently. At the risk of being morbid, could someone let me know how we happened to lose such a talented musician at such an untimely age? >From gongwoman at aol dot com: As I recollect, Michael Hedges passed away in a car accident. He was driving back home along the winding, cliff-y coast north of San Francisco on a stormy night and lost control of his car, which careened over the edge of a steep incline. A very unfortunate loss to the music community at large. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:59:11 -0500 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: Michael Hedges Hello, I was in a used record shop yesterday and found the original Giles, Giles, and Fripp album (I forget the name), but it was $16, without tax so I didn't get it. Does anyone have this album so I'll know whether or not to pick it up next time I go to that store (I'm sure it will still be there...) -Matt np: Hendrix - Band of Gypsys ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:12:20 -0600 From: Matt Endahl Subject: GG&F I believe that Mr. Hedges died in a car accident several years ago....I forgot to list him as one of my favorites!! "Woman of the World" is a beautiful song....also check out the version of "Two Days Old" that he cut with Pat Martino. Happy Listening, Brandon S. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:13:38 -0800 From: "Brandon S." Subject: Re: Michael Hedges A few comments to ETers: Owen Keenan: GREAT PPG interview! Thanks for forwarding it to the rest of us! Much appreciated; one of the coolest things to appear in this e-zine. George Koopman: hilarious snipe at Josette, but I disagree with your desire to censor. It seems everyone posting in and otherwise is more than capable of withstanding her drivelous nonsense (granted, a large percentage of ETers gush as much she, or more, but most often theyre doing it from an over-saccharinized love of KC and music, rather than whipping their egos out and stroking them, as Josette does. To No One In Particular: is it just me or do we have a plethora of poseurs taking on the names or surnames of famous guitar players? Peter Drubotsky: yes, Bruford did play for National Health, in 1976. The 2-CD Complete National Health has one unreleased cut with him (clocking in at only 1:41!, so dont rush out to grab it on that account alone...although its a KILLER anthology, well remastered) . What the situation was, I dont know - it appears he was just sitting in, but I could be wrong. I dont recall him as a permanent member at any point...but again, I could be dead wrong on this. Cameron Devlin: glad to see someone else agrees with me re: Josette being an annoyance (actually, there are several - I even got a few private e-mails, expressing short patience with her inanities). Someone commented that shes publicly stalking him, which appears to be exactly whats going on, but in a manner hard to interpret (lots of stalkers adopt good seemingly-benevolent cover stories). I still say shes a guy, one of these feverish virgins who concocts elaborate sex fantasies and then sends them in to Penthouse magazine, to see his name in print and fulfill the circular onanism. I dont want to think about what occurs when he reads his own ludicrous nonsense feeding back to him as a charged interlink - phone sex is ridiculous enough, now this? Perhaps Toby will intercede. I also agree re: age considerations. I know a lot of kids, up to, say, age 20 (just under the average US demarcation), who are a hell of a lot less fey than many of the posters in ET, so I dont think anyone here is in much of a position to be calling shots against underage posters. Besides, damn near every one of us (especially we baby boomers) discovered KC in our early to mid-teens - that alone demonstrates sufficient intelligence to warrant a disregard of social norms and should caution those who want to protect innocent minds - after all, as someone pointed out, Ladies of the Road is pretty bawdy and we KCophiles loved it when we heard it - fortunately, Sinfield was a true poet and even comparing his righteous work to Josettes blather is insulting so Ill stop here and make the appropriate sacrifices to the appropriate gods at the appropriate times, in propitiation against their terrible wrath. By the way, your exclamation that being called a guitarist is insulting: do you really want to stick with that? Indulging in this reductio ad absurdem (every player is just a musician) is a bit much. The sobriquet is merely an identifier. People who play guitar ARE guitarists, a sub-group of musicians, a sub-group of artists, a sub-group of people. Following your line of logic, wheres the stopping point? Just refer to everyone as anthropoidal? Spirits? Essences from the divine? Im not baiting you here, but I think you see what Im getting at. Robert Fripp is a guitarist...what on earth is so earth-shakingly vilifying about that? -Mark Tucker- Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:36:31 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: 1-900-Call-Josette Claus wrote: > hello hippies! > if there would ewver be a discussion about the greatest bassist, I > think it would be pretty short: > Tony Levin On the contrary, since I switched to playing bass (many years ago) I always had a "top 3" that were head and shoulders above all the other very good bass players out there (I'm not counting the majority of the 3-note rock and roll bassists) such as Phil Lesh and Victor Wooten. This top 3 list was cracked a few years back by a fourth (who can't exactly be described as a bass player, but sometimes fills that role). They are, in no particular order: Jeff Berlin Percy Jones Tony Levin Trey Gunn I guess what sets them apart for me, aside from their awesome talent, musicianship, and soulfulness, is the fact that they play things nobody else can play, as well as stretch the envelope far beyond the norm. They have excellent compostion and performance skills (studio? we don't need no stinking studio to sound good), tons of soul, and always seem to play with other great musicians. Also, although I've actually seen and heard several other folks attempt to play Chapman stick or Warr guitar, none of them even come remotely close to what two of the above musicians can do. And I seem to always gravitate towards the music (mostly prog) that would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) for me to play, and away from the majority of stuff I could play in my sleep. I see a fundamental difference between most of the music discussed in this list and most commercial crap (in any genre). Lastly, they all make my neck-hairs stand up 8-) and that's the most important thing of all... Steve -- ******************************************************* Steve Arnold http://arnolds.dhs.org:8080 Visit Steve's Geeky Zope thing today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:37:56 -0800 From: Steve Arnold Subject: Tony's not the only one... Well since Claus raised the subject (somebody had to!), maybe we can each list a few & why we think they're significant. Among jazz artists (acoustic upright bass) there have been many fine players. A few that come immediately to mind are are: Charles Mingus (also a great composer) Scott LaFaro Jimmy Garrison (esp. w/ John Coltrane's quartet) Ron Carter (Bill Frissell fans check out "Orfeu," a mostly-Brazilian jazz set featuring Mr. F.) And too many others to name, MOST of whom can play rings around the majority of "rock" bassists. As for electric bass, I'll just mention a few who have been particularly innovative in taking the instrument beyond it's previously accepted limits, placing it on an equal footing with other "lead" instruments. Tony Levin (of course) Jack Cassidy Jack Bruce Chris Squire Jaco Pastorius (pioneered the fretless electric style) Phil Lesh Hugh Hopper Of course many other fine players have followed in these guys' footsteps. That's my list, what's yours? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:58:54 -0800 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: Favorite bassists? "CALEB BRADLEY" writes: > With this thread of greatest guitarist going on, I thought it may > be interesting to look at guitar teams. > Of course the greatest tandom guitar work to be seen (in my > opinion) is between Fripp and Belew. This is a team that uses > the tandom guitar effect to maximum potential. [snip] Way back (as a wee teen in the mid-70's) I used to love the multiple guitar work in Blue Oyster Cult. I think I even saw them all play guitar in concert once (including the drummer). And I've always wondered: What the heck is a "stun guitar"? I would have to expand on Caleb's observation though, and say that the double-trio shows were the finest examples I've ever seen of multiple guitar work (and there were 4, not 2). But then again, the CGT with Tony was excellent too. And I couldn't leave out all the killer Zappa shows with 2, 3, and 4 guitars. If I were limited to 2 guitars, then it have to be the Discipline, Beat, and 3OAPP shows. As many have already observed, once you start listing them, it's hard to stop. Then I go back to the neck-hair thing... Steve PS. Nothing like a rainy weekend with KC on the streaming audio, an issue of ET, and the Olympics on the tube... -- ********************************************************** Steve Arnold http://arnolds.dhs.org:8080 Visit Steve's Geeky Zope thing today! With pictures! Just add water, makes its own sauce! Why am I shouting?!? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:25:26 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Arnold Subject: Re: guitar teams Greetings - In re: guitar teams...in approx chron order...Beck/Page in the Yardbirds (for the 23 minutes it lasted) Keith Richards/Mick Taylor in the Rolling Stones, that one lasted alittle longer...Richards/Ron Woods, Stones for about the first 7 years...Carlos Alomar with Earl Slick, or Robert Fripp, or Adrian Belew but not SRV, all with Bowie. I'm sure there's more good ones, but these are the ones I thought of first. In re: splitting the newsletter into an over and under 18 format...Yuck. Yes, I do find the occaisional post that is distaseful (for lack of a better word) but I find lots of things distasteful that most people would never notice and some things acceptable that make others angry and downright violent. If you're worried about what you children are accessing while you're not looking, maybe you should look more often! Quite frankly, fast food commericials are considerably more dangerous than anything that's been posted here during the 3+ years I've been reading. Additionally, it seems to me the easiest way to make somebody do almost anything to see, try or aquire something is to tell them that they absolutely may not have access to it. Sexual repression does not eliminate sexual perversity, it CAUSES sexual perversity. Dr Wilhelm Reich wrote about this in the 50's but his books were burned by the US government (yes, that's right) so he's not widely read. Oh, I think that's way to much. I'll shut up now. Kimsky www.snarkattack.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 15:25:52 -0600 From: Ken Makowsky Subject: Guitar Teams, age-ism "...just curious how much were your tickets to U2?" They were $85. But the show was three days before my birthday, and my mom bought the tickets. Jonathon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:38:04 +0000 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: Re: The Bears Hi Folks, Can someone answer a question for me? In the discography in the back of Sid Smith's book, there is a mention of an anniversary collection consisting of ITCOTCK, Lark's Tongues In Aspic, Discipline and an "anniversary album." Can anyone tell me what that consisted of? I know it was a limited edition and that's all the info I have. Dan PS Is anyone out there getting as tired of Josette as I am? Josie, you've made your point. You're gonna score or not. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #942 ********************************