Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #94 Discipline, Number 94 Tuesday, 25 May 1993 Today's Topics: Crimson clones and covers Fripp dates Centipede Re: Discipline + Starless "Discipline" remastering quality Discipline Tab/What's a stick? But *My* Eyes Only See Starless and Bible Black/Apology Leaving for the summer, etc. "Cosmic Children of Rock" -- worst title of all time? :-) Robert Fripp String Quartet "review" Tony Levin sighting [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 13:01:01 -0700 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Crimson clones and covers Speaking of Crimson covers, I saw two bands live in the last week, one that sounded like a KC clone and the other did an arrangement of Starless and Bible Black. (readers of a.m.p or Gibraltar may have seen a larger article I've excerpted the Crimsonesque references from for this post.) The KC "clone" was Load - formerly Mouth but they got threatened with a lawsuit from a band in Minnesota. Supposedly they considered taking the name Sue Me after that. Probably should have, because I noticed Syn-Phonic has a release by a different band named Load. So I expect a name change soon. This band was excellent. Featured a guitarist, a stick player and a member-of Primus on drums. The King Crimson references were very strong - sort of a mix of 74 era Crimosn with the 80's band - not quite as complex as the 80's stuff with only one quitar, but this all instrumental band is very hot. They have a bit of a middle eastern sound to the guitar at times, which made it lean a little bit to sounding like Ozric Tentacles. Supposedly the drummer from Primus is a huge Crimson fan, and it seems like the whole band must be. I've heard a demo they did from January 1993 and it's pretty good, though perhaps at times a little texturally monotonous. Supposedly they have an lp in the bag due out sometime soon. I liked them a lot and can't wait to hear what they do next. I sort of question whether an instrumental release by a Crimson-esque band can really sell. In some ways I wish the 80's King Crimson had been more instrumental, but with Load I wonder if the lack of a vocal presence and personality might limit their marketability. My main criticism of Load is that it's such a textural swipe from Crimson, down to almost specific riffs or song structures. There was a guy who came out and read some words fom a piece of paper, and it sounded a lot like a story about being out on the street, a la Thela Hun Ginjeet. Also they lacked the chord changes and song structures I'd expect from Fripp. They'd often just lock into a groove and I'd be waiting for them to shift it, perhaps a few right angled turns and unexpected changes. It got me thinking about these textural swipes - where a band cops the sound of another band well enough to make them sound endearing, but somehow missing something to really make it close enough to the original. It's something I feel that the Ozrics and Djam Karet are a bit guilty of. Don't mistake my comments for meaning I dislike any of these bands. I just feel that they don't always live up to the spirit of the bands that inspired them. It's like they got the same set of paints but lack the sub-structure to pull off something as complex or cohesive as their mentors. For example, the Ozrics can get a sound so close to the Angel's Egg/You period Gong, but they really never get quite there with the level of intricasies or idiosyncrasies of the bands that inspired them. It leaves me liking these bands but also feeling that I like them for who they sound like, for the obvious references, while I'm not so sure I'd like them if someone like King Crimson or Gong never existed. In this case I'm referring more to Load than the others I mentioned - The Ozrics and DKs are diverse enough to not just sound like one band and don't suffer this as much. But noticing it in Load made me put a better finger on why I never feel 100% into Ozrics or DK material, because I'm more reminded of what it isn't than what it is. PFS: live in San Francisco, May 15, 1993: PFS has apparently been rooted in SF for years but keeps a low profile. They have at least one tape and one cd on Cuneiform. The band photo shows them as a 4 piece, but one guy just worked lights, slides and filmclips during the live set, leaving a guy on electric piano, one on drums and the other on a couple of saxes. A sparse lineup but on the face of it but I found it worked ok for me. They just kicked right into a tune that sounded very Univers Zero and Art Zoyd influenced which left me initally stunned. they did a few covers, but what I found amusing was the arrangements they did of those. They did a track by Cassiber. A cover of Robert Wyatt's "At Last I am Free" which I didn't recognize at first (until Kat did) with the vocal part transposed to sax! Later came a cover of a Miriodor track that they are doing for a Cuneiform project where bands on the label cover other bands on the label. And they did lots of their own music too, mostly all reminding me of the UZ/AZ/Present genre. They finished up with a cover of Starless and Bible Black... on piano sax and drums! It actually worked really well, except for when they sang, and overall they were a little rough around the edges with a few missed beats. But I thought that someone in the group seems pretty good at arranging, especially to take other songs and craft them to a 3 piece with this instrumentation. I'm planning on checking out their releases sometime. - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 17:46:33 -0700 From: rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck) Subject: Fripp dates OK, so no-one has posted a list of Fripp's California dates. I know these: 22 may San Francisco Great American Music Hall 23 may Santa Cruz Catalyst 27 may San Diego somewhere of other Are there any more dates? How 'bout Sacramento? I wanna take a road trip! Thx, Toby or whomever answers if Toby posts this to the list. . . [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 17:59:12 -0700 From: rpeck at pure dot com (Ray Peck) Subject: Centipede I just happened upon this in my Vast Archive of Saved NetCruft: From: rmtodd at servalan dot servalan dot com (Richard Todd) Subject: The Canterbury Discography Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 07:59:36 GMT It's new, it's improved, it's the Discography of the Canterbury Bands: [ If you have any changes/additions to this list, *please* send them to rmtodd at chinet dot chi dot il dot us, rmtodd at essex dot ecn dot uoknor dot edu, or rmtodd at servalan dot servalan dot com ] Centipede: Centipede, 1970 (?) [CD] Nick Evans: trombone Hugh Hopper: bass Robert Fripp: gtr (many others) Centipede: Septober Energy, 1971 (Neon) Ian Carr: trumpet Mark Charig: trumpet Elton Dean, Ian McDonald, Karl Jenkins: sax Nick Evans: trombone John Marshall, Robert Wyatt: drums Robert Fripp: gtr Roy Babbington: bass Keith Tippett: piano plus a whole bunch of others... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 May 93 19:10:07 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Re: Discipline + Starless Paul Martz writes a Whole lotta stuff: >Question, has anyone compared the '81 (or was it '80) Discipline album >pressing with the recent remaster/reissue CD? How's the sound quality? I >have been thinking about upgrading to the CD. Discipline is tied with Red >as my favorite King Crimson. The most recent remaster CD outperforms the LP in the sound quality department, but not by an order of magnitude. The CD definitely reveals "limitations of the source tape", to quote the record company disclaimer. Also, the mix of, what is it?, "Matte Kudasai" is different, the CD lacking the Fripp-overdub. Unfortunately, Fripp's changing opinion notwithstanding, I prefer the original Fripped mix. The spare Frippless mix has its good points, however. Scott T. Anderson >Also, one last breath of the "Starless" debate... a while ago Chris King >complained that the theme of the first half never returns once the >instrumental section begins. Granted, the vocals never come back, but if >the last couple minutes, with the soaring guitar line, are not a grand >recapitulation, I don't know what is. The vocal melody returns during one instrumental recapitulation, at 10'03 (give or take) which includes a high-speed "Starless" tag, and then of course the theme returns twice for an ending, at 11'19. I definitely prefer the entire "Starless" piece, rather than Fripp's latest abbreviated revision. It's not perfect, but I really like the long build immediately following the last vocal part. I like the way Fripp plays the single notes on two different strings (E & B), so that they are always slightly out of tune. Like a piano. And, as the last song on the album, "Starless" just wouldn't make it in its shortened form. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 19 May 93 22:18:29 -0700 From: Academick Fraud Subject: "Discipline" remastering quality Regarding the question about the sound quality of remasterings of the album "Discipline": I have both a high quality cd-player and a high quality record player, and when I put on my lp copy of Discipline and my cd copy, I find a noticeably greater dynamic range in the lp. There is no doubt about it. As long as you keep your records clean, there is no reason to go cd. Lp's have a larger bass response than cd's, hands down. Accepting flames. Side note: it's official, the Robert Fripp Guitar Quintet is performing May 26 at the Anaconda theatre in Isla Vista, CA. Just outside of Santa Barbara. The cost is $15-16, and the venue is pretty good. There should be no difficulty in getting tickets, as there are only a few of us in I.V. who are familiar with RF. -e [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 17 May 1993 16:53:13 -0800 From: "Phil Chang" Subject: Discipline Tab/What's a stick? Ophir, Toby and other Dscipline list readers, Below is part of an exchange I had with Matt Keen about Levin's contribution to "guitar" parts. It explains what a Stick is, in some detail. I basically have a strong suspicion that Levin is holding down some of the guitar duo parts with Fripp, some percentage of the time. I would like to put this question to the list: Does anyone know for sure who is holding down the second fingered guitar line in songs like Discipline, or any other song with two interlocking fingered guitar parts? After seeing KC live several times, I became quite reluctant to give Belew the credit. Phil Inje Chang Director of Marketing StarNine Technologies, Inc. phil at starnine dot com AppleLink: STARNINE 510-649-4949 -------------------------------------- Date: 5/5/93 6:52 PM From: Phil Chang A Stick is an instrument invented by Emmett Chapman with ten strings, five bass strings and five guitar strings. It is really two instruments in one. The idea behind it is that you can play independent lower and upper parts with both hands, like on the piano. So contrary to popular conception, the Stick is much more than a bass-like instrument in the hands of a skillful player. It is possible to play chords on the guitar strings, but the method of fingering is more percussive than normal guitar. The sound is caused by hammering on the strings with no plucking by the other hand--that is how both hands are free to play independently. That is also why I am fairly convinced that Levin does play some of the complicated fingered "guitar" parts. I will once again congratulate you on a great piece of work. My comments have nothing to do with that. Judging by the level of detail with which you explain things, I trust that you have an accurate transcription. My real point is that once I saw what Levin was doing on stage, I felt compelled to expand people's perceptions of his role in the music (I started doing this years ago. In fact, I was so impressed by him that eventually I went and got a Stick myself.). I think he does not get enough credit for what's going on. I wish I knew for sure what guitar parts he does in fact play on the Stick (I invite you to ask people in your newsletter), but I am convinced in songs like Elephant Talk when Belew is quite busy with the roaring feedback noises, which is HIS hallmark, that in live performance the remaining parts of the song seem intact. If you catch my drift. And this says nothing for my witnessing with my own eyes in several different settings the fact that Levin's right hand is moving quite rapidly on the guitar portion of his instrument. (One wonders what guitar parts he is responsible for in Peter Gabriel's music as well. Once my ear became educated to the Stick I thought I could pick out guitar-range Stick parts in some Gabriel songs.) Though it is true that he could use his right hand to contribute to bass lines as well. This brings me to your question. The only way to understand the Stick is to see one, and hopefully play one in person. However, do not expect to begin doing things in the proper way without a lot of practice (imagine taking your guitar and fingering all chords with the right hand, holding the instrument the same way as always. As for the bass side--watch out! The bass strings are typically tuned in fifths with the low strings below the high strings.) As for Stick accessibility in Minnesota, it seems to me that most larger guitar stores would carry them or have access to them. There is also a fairly large used market for them because people often find they can't play it or invest the time in learning how to play it. I got mine from someone advertising on a telephone pole. Hope that helps. Happy to give you more details if you like. PIC -------------------------------------- Date: 5/5/93 5:23 PM To: Phil Chang From: Of the Sun... Please describe further what a Stick is like. How many strings does it have? I think this might help resolve one thing I have been having trouble with. When the new theme is introduced about 3 and a half minutes into Discipline there three lines it sounds like in the guitar line. My guess is that the chordsthat come in are really just our resourceful stick player. But up to that point the bass lines are quite complex and would probably require both hands. Also what would Belew do while Levin was playing the parts? I would love to try a stick someday, never mind see one.... know of anyplace in Minnesota that carries them?? :) I really appreciate your comments, they seem to have resolves some of my questions, but over all the tab I sent you should be fairly correct. I will make a note in the next Discipline issue about the chords. Thanks again, Matt [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 22 May 93 00:02:00 PST From: "Chris King" Subject: But *My* Eyes Only See Starless and Bible Black/Apology I'm completely amused at the silly sections of LTIA pt I and Starless. However, consider the source: I always liked "Save a Prayer" by the Durans. My apologies, especially to Ophir and Jon, if I got too obnoxious during the past few issues wonderful Starless thread. It was a good thread. So many good short essays on music theory (yours, not mine). I picked up the live versions of "Starless" and "Book of Saturdays" on Asia's "Live In Moscow". The band sounds positively like a bunch of corpses on barbituates. There's a happy part though. You wouldn't believe how many thousand Muscovites started screaming as soon as Wetton started singing, "If I only could deceive you, forgetting the game . . ." Eighteen years after the song was recorded. I thought only the decent folk on the Discipline list remembered that pretty, ancient Crimson chestnut. --Chris King [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 23 May 1993 17:39 CST From: SANDERSO at gacvx2 dot gac dot edu Subject: Leaving for the summer, etc. Well, summer's almost here and tomorrow I leave for home, to be away from scholarly pursuits (like e-mail) for three months. I just wanted to let everyone know that I have enjoyed reading Discipline (and to be quite frank, I think it is a lot better than Paperlate, which I unsubscribed because it was nothing but bickering), and look forward to more next fall. I also am looking forward to the new King Crimson stuff, as well as any boxed sets Bob might have in store for us. One thing before I go: Has anyone noticed this on disc 4 of the Great Deceiver? During the Toronto show, during breaks in the music, several audience members can be heard shouting "He's a wanker!" What's up with that? 8^) Scott T. Anderson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] I always thought it was one voice saying "Fripp's a wanker!" Or maybe my subconscious is trying to tell me something :-) -- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 24 May 93 11:34:28 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: "Cosmic Children of Rock" -- worst title of all time? :-) A quote from to Pete Frame's excellent 'Rock Family Trees' entry for Crimson/Roxy: 'Fripp, after collapse of Crimson #4 [Nov 70 -- April 72, RF, Mel Collins, Ian Wallace, Boz Burrell], returned to England with a woman described as "a witch", with whom he planned to record. (The album, 'Cosmic Children of Rock', although completed, was never released). Anyone know more about this? With such a wonderful title my bet is the album is a TURKEY:-) Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 24 May 93 15:31:08 PDT From: ding at math dot berkeley dot edu (Howard Ding) Subject: Robert Fripp String Quartet "review" Not really a review of the Robert Fripp String Quintet (The Great American Music Hall, San Fransisco, May 22, 1993, 8:00 PM), but rather just some comments and observations. The show was general admission, and I arrived about 45 min. before the doors opened and had the fifth place in line to get in. By the opening at 7:00 there were perhaps fifty or more people waiting in line. I got a seat at the second row of tables directly in front of Fripp's setup, and was quite excited as this was to be the first time I ever saw a Fripp show. The show started a bit late, at about 8:15, with a loud cheer as Fripp and company entered from the rear. The Quintet was, as has been said, three Crafties, primarily on acoustic guitar (one played what looked like a Steinburger (sp?) on a couple of tunes, and another played with what looked like a hand-held pickup over his soundhole for a couple of tunes; the last played only his Ovation), Trey Gunn, primarily on Stick (except for an Ovation acoustic bass on the last encore), and Fripp on electric guitar (except for acoustic on the last encore). For some reason, Fripp entered with a guitar that looked like a cherry Les Paul, and then put it down upon reaching the stage and proceeded to use his black Les Paul for the entire show. I do not have a complete listing of the songs that were played. They played three songs from _Show of Hands_, including An Easy Way and I believe Bicycling to Afghanistan and Scaling the Whales (I am not sure of the last two.), as well as some other songs in the Crafty Style. Fripp played three or four Frippertronics pieces with Gunn accompaniment. I would say that they were much darker than the Frippertronics from NP/ES/LTPF, especially the last number, which Fripp left playing as the Quintet left the stage. They also played two classical numbers. I heard Eric Tamm (who was sitting at the table in front of me) say that the first was a Bach organ piece, and the second sounded as though it might be Bach as well, with the Crafties playing harpsichord like melody lines above massive pedal tones from Fripp and Gunn. Finally, there were a couple more numbers which I don't really want to classify. For the first encore, they played what sounded like a reprise of an earlier number, although I'm not sure. For the second encore, the Crafties came out along and played a couple of numbers, including a nice little jazz piece where they magically transformed their three Ovation guitars into guitar, bass, and a remarkably good simulation of wire brush drumming. Fripp and Gunn then returned to join them for some more music. Then then did a final encore, in which they came in in front of the stage, and Fripp spoke the only words to be heard from the group, something to the effect of "Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present Patricia Fripp." (I assume it was his sister.). They then played a little acoustic number for her and departed for the evening. Unfortunately, I was not able to hang around for the second show, but such is life. Overall, I'd have to say that I was pretty pleased with the show. The Great American Music Hall was a nice cozy venue (Fripp seemed particularly amused with the balconies, as he looked up several times to them with a precious expression on his face) and the sound was good. Gunn was extremely good on his 12-string Stick, and Fripp was Fripp. Judging from this show I believe his claim that the new Crimson will be rocking. And the Crafties were no slouches either. I'd look for some good stuff to be coming up in the next few years. Howard Ding ding at math dot berkeley dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 25 May 93 18:08:05 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: Tony Levin sighting Last night we went to see Peter Gabriel in Sheffield. Tony was in the band, as I'm sure you all know. And guess what? Outside the arena he cycled right past us on his bike! Didn't have time to get his net address though :-) Anyway, at the gig he played incredibly well. When Peter introduced the band he said "...and at the bottom end, the living legend, Mister Tony Levin!" I guess the rest is for TL fans only: Tony played a variety of instruments: - an electric double bass with a pin stand (I think Sting has used one of these), with fingers and bow - regular bass, with fingers, pick and those weird steel Edward Scissorhands things he wears - stick (hooray!-- Shock the monkey/San Jacinto) - litte keyboard bass synth - and weirdest of all, a regular bass guitar with a little 2 octave keyboard NAILED ON! It was a great gig. If you get a chance to see this tour -- do it! Toby PS The final encore was PG singing 'Here comes the flood' solo on piano. Boy did I want to hear those 'Exposure' frippertronics... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.