Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #936 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 936 Wednesday, 6 February 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: tony levin tour dates Re: xoxoxoxoxox's to Trey Josette and Trey Re: The best guitarist? Does it matter? one last guitarist... Niacin; Trey Gunn; 23rd century schizoid band Comparisons are odious - so lets make some. sad news Schizoid Demented The "best guitarist" non-debate? Greatest guitarists I used to run the CD but I switched to XP Guitars, Gilmour, LZ TOOL AND CRIMSON - TOGETHER AGAIN? Re Crimson Sound and Great Guitarists New Stuff? king crimson Re Guitarist debate GIG REVIEW: Trey Gunn Band @ Cafe Du Nord ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:56:04 From: "Spear man" Subject: NEWS: tony levin tour dates Haven't seen the update at tonylevin.com, but got it at pollstar.com plenty of left coast US tour dates+ see here: http://pollstar.com/tour/searchall.pl?By=Artist&Content=TONLEV&Key=Y ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:23:51 -0500 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Subject: Re: xoxoxoxoxox's to Trey Yuck! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:47:44 -0500 From: Don Cooper Subject: Josette and Trey Josette sez: "EXPLODING with creativity, unleashed from the restraints (oh, but how I long to put handcuffs on him right now, I do admit.) of the ridged King Crimson format...." Ruffles have ridges. As far as I know, King Crimson does not. So how come your site doesn't really have any pictures, Josette? There are tons of dead links. Beautiful flash animation on the front page, though. Don ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:18:34 -0800 From: Steve Arnold Subject: Re: The best guitarist? Does it matter? Cedric wrote: [snip] > So let's head this one off at the proverbial pass, and leave it at > this: we have two outstanding guitarists in King Crimson. Let's > enjoy them while we can, and accept anything else that catches our > ears and gives us joy. This is why music is so wonderful. Earlier (in the snipped part) you mentioned many wonderful guitarists, however, in the quote above, I think you mean 3 (three) excellent, outstanding, amazing guitarists in KC. If you haven't seen Trey's band (or heard his solo stuff) then you're missing out. They smoke (both literally and figuratively). After seeing and listening, I have a difficult time calling Trey a bass player any more. He just doesn't fit the category. But I guess the same could be said of all the members of KC, their solo works (Adrian? pop music?) and performances. They all excel at breaking the mold... Which is a major reason why I've been hooked since I was 14 (even though I certainly didn't understand S&BB in 1974). And the other folks (Bob, Tony, Randy, etc) who play with Trey are excellent as well. Well worth any price of admission. Just my $.02 Steve -- ******************************************************* Steve Arnold http://arnolds.dhs.org:8080 Visit Steve's Geeky Zope thing today! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:21:04 -0800 From: Steve Arnold Subject: one last guitarist... Sorry, but I had to get one last one in ;-) Among all the great names thrown around this and related threads, the only one I was truly surprised *not* to see was Allan Holdsworth. He's got to be one of the most incredible and influential ever to pick up the instrument (and apparently in cognito, even among prog-heads). In case you're curious, he's the guy smokin' all over Bruford's solo works _Feels_Good_to_Me_ and _One_Of_a_Kind_ (and plenty of other stuff from Jean Luc Ponty to his own solo stuff). He only invented the synth-axe (Roy Wooten of the FLeckTones plays a modified one for all his drum work) and is the admitted guitar hero of other popular players (eg, Eddie Van Halen). He can also span more frets with one hand than should be humanly possible, so he usually plays chords never before heard on guitar... Lets hear it for all the excellent creative musicians with tons 'o soul, who break new ground and make normal people go "huh?" This is the KC tradition. -- *********************************************************** Steve Arnold ------- sarnold at earthling dot net Geography stuff: http://arnolds.dhs.org/geography.html Geeky stuff: http://arnolds.dhs.org:8080 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:44:08 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Niacin; Trey Gunn; 23rd century schizoid band >Check out Niacin. More good advice can scarcely be packed into one sentence. >Hey you guys! Haven't ANY of you gone to see Trey's band this past week? I'm like a junkie desperately needing a fix! Yes dear. I left you a couple tickets at the door, too (in Portland). I was so disappointed that you didn't show! >Actually, the definitive version of King Crimson (as judged by us in the 23rd century) -- they band they WILL EVENTUALLY BE -- will arise when Les Claypool becomes the bass player, Buckethead their keyboardist, and on drums ... Oh, wait, she hasn't been born yet. ROFL - thanks very much for that - S. np: Kenso, 76/77 scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 02:18:37 +0000 From: Mike Hipkins Subject: Comparisons are odious - so lets make some. I've been reading with interest the 'who's the greatest guitarist, who's the best drummer' discussion and, whilst interesting on one level, may I suggest that such a discussion is, essentially futile. The reason is simple: like all art criticism, once you move beyond certain measures that are readily codified, you are dealing with the subjective, rather than the objective. For example, consider any comparison of jazz saxophonists. "Who is the greatest jazz sax player: John Coltrane, Lester Young, Dexter Gordon, or Charlie Parker?" Well, there's the first problem: I can hear cries of "What about Ornette Coleman?" "What about Sonny Rollins?" "What about (insert player of your choice here)?" How do you define terms without them becoming so broad as to become meaningless? Then, how do you define greatness? I think it was Joel Dorn who said that Coltrane put the period on a sentence that was generations old, and that no one has started a new one. Yet, you can convincingly argue that Ornette Coleman read the sentence and decided that the only way forward was start a new book and so, through his development of free playing and the whole harmelodic experiment, has tried to do just that. Who of these two is the greater? Who is the greater genius? Or is greatness to measured in terms of virtuosity? In that case, how do you measure Dizzy Gillespie against Miles Davis, or Art Tatum against Keith Jarrett? Compared to Gillespie, Davis was no virtuoso - yet does either of these men come close to having the astounding influence of Louis Armstrong? It seems to me that unless you choose readily quantifiable and thus narrow criteria such as number of demi-semi-micro-pico-nano-quavers per second played, real greatness is beyond any real measure. Perhaps the only real measure of how "great" an artist may or not be lies in endurance and if their art is appreciated generations after their deaths, like Rembrandt, Beethoven or Bach. In that case, for so much "modern" music, the jury isn't out: it hasn't even been picked yet. Later -- -- Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:35:55 +0000 From: Jeremy Robinson Subject: sad news Very sad to hear about Pete Bardens, a terrific musician. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:23:13 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Schizoid Demented STEVEN LAVERNE MUNARI: surprised your e-missive got thru, since the gatekeeper put the kibosh on...but it doesnt matter: all your concerns and comments were brought up several times, discussed several times, and answered several times; Ill not go over them again. //// Schizoid Dimension - a poor CD except for 2 cuts? Well, that explains a lot about your opinionation. ETC: Is anyone much fooled that Josettes a guy? Purple prose like that comes straight from the baths. //// And irony never ceases to time itself well: a slam on the Best Guitarist roundtable by a guy whos adopted the surname of...Hendrix. Ah yes. //// Lastly, to the Buckethead aficionado: check out his work with Jonas Hellborg on Octave Of The Holy Innocents - best stuff hes ever done. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:11:20 -0500 From: "Ling & Emory" Subject: The "best guitarist" non-debate? Well, I have to slightly disagree with the immanently sensible Cedric Hendrix. Not every guitarist is "equal" in a sense. More than anything, a guitarist has to be really SAYING something...it can't be mere licks (no matter how good) patchworked together. Not that I'm totally against licks--hell, Bird had licks, and sometimes I think the player has creative gaps in the middle of a solo that need to be filled in for momentum's sake. BUT, there's got to be something more, something tied in some essential way to that moment and place. Otherwise, you have what the Jazz guys call, uhm..."spooing", or a "spoofest". I also think another criteria is the ability of the guiarist to speak to the body. Something about music needs to be visceral on some level, or as far as I'm concerned it's spoo all over again. This was kind o what punk here in NYC in the 70s was about..the "punks" (though they never seemed to use that term much locally at the time) were asking precisely these questions, and answering them by stripping out all of the stuf that might encourage on to "spoo". Say something or begone! Patti Smith comes to mind, though she's not a guitarist per se. Pasing by the Blue Note with some Jazz playersa few years ago, we noticed a picture in the window with Al Dimeola, Chick Corea, and a whole batch of other type players. Quoting a recent Beavis and Buthead (in a strikingly authentic-sounding Butthead) one of the guys said: "It's a super suck group" That said, if the guitar can speak to the mind as well (almost in a secondary fashion), then I think you've got something. But there aren't a lot of players capable of unifying all of this stuff at once. Fripp at his best is one of them, and i daresay one of the reasons is because he has consciously addresed some of these issues and is aware of how hard they are. I think some of the Indian and midle eastern traditions have been able to generate a recent generation or two of musicians of this caliber, but the amount of discipline involved is something vey few humans are prepared for. Once a player is in this zone, however, I will then agree that saying "who's the best" is likely pointless. Any musician of this caliber is in ways a sort of Shaman, funneling and combining energy present and then refracting it out through the prism of his or her personality (sorry...finished reading 'Dhalgren' recently). Or like or dislike of that player probably has more to do with what they show us about or world or ourselves, and in that place the discussion of technique can be left at the door. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:47:30 +0000 From: bass456 at att dot net Subject: Greatest guitarists I wanted to get in on this greatest guitarist thing before it got put off limits.IMHO,the 3 greatest are,in order,Frank Zappa,Jerry Garcia and Adrian Belew.They elicit the strongest emotional response in me when I hear their solos.All 3 have better technicians around than them,Adrian has 2 with him in Crimson.I always thought that how it makes you feel was the main criteria.I'm as much of a prog geek as anyone on this list and I submit that the expanded range of emotion that more technically involved music presents over 1-4-5 for 12 bars gets lost on people we try to impart this to when we focus on the chops of the players involved(I'm as guilty of this as the next guy sometimes).Have a nice day. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:42:14 EST From: ComicMojo at aol dot com Subject: I used to run the CD but I switched to XP Hi The Heavy Constuckion embedded video ran on my computer, until I switched to Windows XP. I just get the audio now. Help, I miss that jammin vid. Later JB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:41:05 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Guitars, Gilmour, LZ Hi all, good to se you, I've been enjoying this thread of guitar favourites. Reminds me of that drummers thread that got cut off before too long, shame as I was enjoying that one. It's so good to have people say something and have to stand up for their arguments. Unlike the old reviews in those magazines who would slag somebody off and there was no real way to any rejoinder and subsequent satisfaction. I recall, and cannot remember where this same discussion (here?) that the two axemen who were the most consistently innovative over a long time was Robert Fripp and Jimmy Page, not an argument finding disfavour with me. The basis of that writer's decision was the adaptability, innovation and courage of the two musicians. As I recall... Speaking of which, one axeman I had the privilege of seeing recently was David Gilmour. At the Festival Hall in London he and his band which, briefly included as a guest, Richard Wright. This was a set that consisted of essentially unplugged versions of PF and unreleased material. There was a Syd song of which I have no idea of the origin and a song from Carmen sung very well by DG. The show was bookended by an acoustic(!) entire SOYCD. One of the few times he bothered with an electric guitar was the change over from acoustic in Comfortably Numb. I know this is not particularly KC oriented but I just thought there might possibly be the occasional PF (or DG) fan among the KC (ET) community. And here was a very established artist making some big chages. This was, IMO a rather courageous move by DG, and the effect was relaxing (to me anyway). I do not know who the excellent doubles bass and drums rhythm section were but they were superb, other piano man was one Michael Kamen. RW did a song of his from the Broken China album and sax man Dick Parry was preent on many and dueted with DG on SOYCD. Should have bootlegged it I suppose...hee hee... BTW the band Niacin have been highly recommended on the ELP list. And this one. When the arrows point there I shall go...had great fun with the Djam Karet catalogue, but I need more....more... Oh yes...Must disagree with those who consider Zep less thangood ,live. True there were the occasional moments of less than the greatest, but for their 550 or so gigs the 250 or so that have come out seem to indicate a band that was superb most of the time. One more thing, poor old Bonzo was probably best when he did not have to play Dazed and Confused after his long solos. Their (Page's and Bonzo's) conditions (alcohol, pharmaceutical, whatever...) did not diminish the often breathtaking (even now!) performances. Great band. Not many can survive the attention what the boots pick up. Let us not forget the eternal Zappa either, composer and player who thought he was not a virtuoso because (he said) he could not turn his hand to everything. Well neither could the otherwise brilliant John Williams and Pete Townshend, who once bashed out a reasonable Cavatina. Love to hear RF do some classical guitar compositions. enuff 4 now.. Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:11:37 -0500 From: Donal Wool Subject: TOOL AND CRIMSON - TOGETHER AGAIN? has anybody heard if tool and king crimson are going to get together again for another tour? i thought i read somewhere that it might happen again soon? anyone know? also, is there a tool mailing list much like elephant talk? if so could someone please let me know where to subscribe - thanks! take care, -donal- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:03:39 -0500 From: Steve Rewa Subject: Re Crimson Sound and Great Guitarists I read Danny Anderson's post in ET 933, and just wanted to say that I too have a complete works of KC cd. I don't usually set it to shuffle just because there tend to be lots of songs I never hear that way. They just get skipped too much. What I do get a kick out of is playing it on shuffle with a group of people listening and hearing "Who does THIS one?" dozens of times. As far as the greatest guitarist of all time goes, I wouldn't want to make that call. My knowledge is far too limited to speak intelligently on it. I can and will however, tell you who my favorites are. I won't go into the merits of Fripp, you all know them as well as I, or better. I will say that I can find music for all moods with him which is rare. For pure guitar work, I think my favorite is Jimi Hendrix. Songs like "Moon turned the tides..." just make me drop what I'm doing and listen. Then you have things like "Spanish Castle Magic" that send me flying the other way. I really like Nugent. A lot of people find his stuff boarish and childish, and they're probably right, but I like it just the same. He plays that Gibson Birdland and it has a really penetrating sound. It takes very little to really feel it. I also really like a lot of stuff by guys like Gary Hoey or Yngwie Malmsteen, but they really don't make the top of my list. Mark Tucker mentioned Ian Anderson as being a great acoustic guitarist, and I have to agree. My opinion is biased,though, because I think he's my favorite musicians of all time. Give a listen to "The Whistler" I think the Electric guitar is really good on it and the flute part is a riot, but underlying it all is a really intense, driving acoustic. The whole Songs from the Wood album is full of great stuff like this. Obviously there are lots of other great guitarists and we all appreciate them for different things. A hope my few picks entertained you. Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:41:43 -0800 (PST) From: Frank P Subject: New Stuff? Hi All, OK, a couple quick questions: Does anyone know if K.C. plans on recording the new material from Level 5 Tour ("Level 5", "Electric", etc...) in the studio? (aka a new studio release) Also, has Fripp ever hinted at recording/performing with the League of Crafty Guitarists again? I sure wish he would! Thanks! Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:08:01 -0600 From: Don Melnyk Subject: king crimson Whatever happened to Jamie Muir? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:49:00 -0500 From: Steve Rewa Subject: Re Guitarist debate I read Cedric Hendrix's post in 934 and I saw some positive things and some negative things in it. I want to start off by agreeing with you, Ced, and say that it doesn't matter who's the best and it's not worth an argument. That said, I need to say that I like the thread anyway. It is a matter of personal taste, but that's what I'm interested in. I want to know what other people think on this matter, and I want to know if anyone agrees with me on it. If your tastes differ from mine, I want to know what you see that I don't, and maybe I can figure it out. My knowledge of musical talent is very limited and I'll admit to only recognizing about half a dozen of the guys you've listed, but I'd still like to know what you think about them. Like you, I don't want the subject to digress to bickering, but I think it's a good discussion point and I don't really want it truncated. Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:54:25 -0800 (PST) From: rone at ennui dot org (fate healer) Subject: GIG REVIEW: Trey Gunn Band @ Cafe Du Nord {WARNING: "hella" long post} Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:09:29 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Hey you guys! Haven't ANY of you gone to see Trey's band this past week? I'm like a junkie desperately needing a fix! PLEASE, somebody.....tell me what I have missed! (My, but you beg so prettily...) Indeed, i have been remiss in sending in my review to his Monday and Wednesday shows (being that i did not attend the Tuesday show, sadly enough) at Caf? du Nord in San Francisco last week. Here are the set lists: MONDAY WEDNESDAY Kuma Kuma Sozzle Sozzle Hard Winds Redux Hard Winds Redux Dziban Dziban The Glove The Glove Gate Of Dreams Gate Of Dreams Sirrah Hierarchtitiptitoploftical Hierarchtitiptitoploftical Arrakis Arrakis Sirrah Tehlikeli Madde Tehlikeli Madde Brief Encounter Brief Encounter Fossil ("encore") Kaffaljidhma ("encore") ("encore") means that they soaked up bucketloads of applause before playing their final tune, but didn't actually leave the stage; Trey even said, "We're not going to even pretend we're not going to do an encore, so..." and launched into "Fossil". "Fossil" is a new tune, with Trey on a Godin Glissentar (see for more information) and vocals (!). The mix on his vocals were a bit too low, but i for one am glad he is singing again. Joe provided backup vocals. Monday was an incredible show... Wednesday was even better, all across the board, with a few minor quibbles: - a bit of buzzing during "Dziban", - the lack of the improvised intro to "Tehlikeli Madde", which was gorgeous, - the lack of "Fossil", which i wanted to hear (and see) again. + After "Kuma" ended, they turned on a projector which displayed various patterns (generated by some program on a Mac) onto a white sheet on the back of the stage. + On "Sozzle" (which i did not recognize on Monday; the live version is a bit different, and blisteringly good), Trey used a hand-held device (the Talker?) which plugged into his Warr guitar to play some parts. + Joe played the rubber-stringed bass on "The Glove", which was not one of my favorite TGB tunes, but its live renditions have changed that opinion. + "Gate Of Dreams" featured Bob Muller's superlative drumming, where he actually had a solo with tablas and jingle bell ankle bracelet. + During "Hierarchtitiptitoploftical", i was amused by watching some woman trying to bop up and down to the song, getting lost, then trying again. + "Arrakis" featured an even faster-than-before climax... wow! + "Brief Encounter" yielded a slightly inebriated dancing girl who, goaded by the increasing intensity of the band's playing, ended up pulling up her top. Trey was apparently impressed: "If you can dance to the next tune, i'll buy you a drink." She wasn't game to try to dance to "Kaffaljidhma", strangely enough... Tell me, one of you men, who live to discuss the difference between the sound of the guitar from one show to the next...TELL ME I beg you....what is he like with his band ....what of Bob and Mike....more important to me,what does he wear, how does he sway....how tight are his pants? I'm not sure who "Mike" is, but you left out Tony and Joe... Trey wore dark clothing (for a change), his pants seemed relaxed, and his sideburns were almost 90210-ish. He also told me that he had a martini waiting at the bar with his name on it, so now you know what drink to buy him if you ever have the chance... He indulged in a bit of patter with the audience and the band, stayed loose, and looked good. Every member of the band played their whole selves out. I would have to say Wednesday's show was better than watching Jonesy and his boys at the Fillmore in `99, which was my previous #1 show. My wife also greatly enjoyed the show. I got a Live Encounter poster signed by the band (and managed to frustrate all of the members except Joe by having them try to sign the glossy poster with my useless ball-point pen). rone ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #936 ********************************