Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #934 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 934 Tuesday, 29 January 2002 Today's Topics: fracture/S&BB version Vroom Vroom Error confirmation Re: Song covers/ET #927 Mark Tucker & Steve Marshall xoxoxoxoxox's to Trey plymouth 71 disc The Best Guitarist? Does it Matter? Re: The State of the Crimson Heavy construkcion password? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:57:01 -0600 From: Kathy Kral Subject: fracture/S&BB version Would someone with the 1974 cut of Fracture from Starless and Bible Black album be willing to hunt down a section in there and give me a time count (00:00) from the CD?. It's a section near the end of the track, about 45 sec long, that goes into 15/8 time and immediately precedes the section in 5/8. On my live version it's somewhere at about 9:00 but I need the version from S&BB. Sorry for the time signatures, but, yeah, I'm a drummer. Thanks Jim TX USA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:57:15 From: "Carlos Eduardo Rodrigues Alves" Subject: Vroom Vroom Error confirmation My copy of Vroom Vroom also has an error in "People". I bought this one in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and heard it in three different CD players. It jumps several times... (sigh) Thanks to Raleigh Dailey for commenting this error. Carlos p. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:51:22 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: Song covers/ET #927 Mark Tucker & Steve Marshall Back again. I had to again try & write(at length)on a coupla' things. I brought up the subject issues back about the band "Niacin" doing a cover of the King's, composition, "RED" because Niacin is a talent heavy, incredible band, & got a couple of "flames"(well maybe just 1)thrown back at me, & wanted to give my take on GREAT bands doing covers of GREAT songs. BTW, Niacin also covers Jan Hammer's, "Blue Wind" on a cd called "Time Crunch" available Feb. 6th!! ET'er Nic seemed to react in an extremely negitive manner that ANYONE even consider touching this peice. Maybe he has heard the KC cover cd called "Schizoid Dimension"-A Tribute to King Crimson which except for a couple of listenable cuts(namely the 2 by Brand X East & Brand X West)is more of a type of "Garagebands" attempts at covering the King, & is poor at best. He seems reluctant to purchase this but by the end of his post, seems to grudgingly, say he will give it a shot, but seems to have already made his mind up that Niacin's cover will be bad. OK, my take on a GREAT 3 peice band(Billy Sheehan-bass/Dennis Chambers-drums, & Jon Novello Hammond B-3)like Niacin, & their reason for doing it is because of their complete LOVE of KC & this song in particular, and they are showing tremendous respect by doing it.(I KNOW Robert knows of these fine musicians, and MUST have given them his blessing for them to procede on recording it, & I know they(Niacin)asked permission) One of his major concerns seems to be that Niacin has decided to record a longer version, and anything over KC's 6min 17 second version seems to be very disturbing to him. As I admitted when I posted on the cover, I am biased, as I own every Niacin cd, & the incredible(best sounding & looking dvd i've EVER seen!!)"Blood-Sweat & Beer's" dvd, done live at Tokyo's Blue Note club. Plus I own quite a bit of other musical tidbits by all 3 virtuoso's that form this hellacious band.(Even tho the music ranges wildly from jazz-prog rock-fusion-funk & even pop from the 3 men on their other stuff)I got a sneak listen to the cd, & will be getting mine the day it comes out, but I think that ANYONE who does'nt approach this with a negitive frame of mind will be quite pleased that these guys decided to honor fellow virtouso's in the 70's Wetton-Bruford-Fripp, ect. band by doing this cover. It's my belief that when musicians at the same level of playing ability and reknown decide to do a "cover" it is always done for the RIGHT reasons, so I hope that Nic will "open up" & enjoy this(as well as all other KC lover's & consumer's of fabulously performed music)and simply enjoy, without over analyzing the product before it's even been given a chance. I hope you find it as stimulating as I did. To Steven Marshall, maybe i've heard more of this band than you, maybe not, but I really think you should give it another listen as I think its quite an incredible job done by such differing instruments, I mean "Red" w/NO GUITAR, but w/such incredible bass & Organ, this is a treat & I think a very BRAVE attempt that is pulled off because each guy is SO GOOD at what he plays. I look forward to posts after this reaches ET'er's ears. I am positive about how it will be accepted. I must respond a bit to Mark Tucker. 1st of all, I idolize no-one, even drummers & other musicians. I have been playing drums since age 8, & am 50 now, & I too have recorded & had some sucess. I don't put 1 musician above another, only make comparasions, and ANYONE that can play at a higher level than me gets my respect. Your correct, 1 does'nt need be a musician to appreciate music or analyze it or understand it, my point all along was that "IF" you were a musician, especially a drummer since that's who we've singled out, then the only way to know if something being played is technically difficult, is to TRY and copy what you hear. While Bonham is no where as technically proficient as many(Donati-Chambers-Bozzio-ect. ect.)he is technically good enough to lay down a complexe pattern & turn it around, and be funky or in the pocket. As I said try playing "The Crunge", 1 of many. While you seem to idolize Led Zepplin, I simply enjoy them more than ALOT of what's considered early Hard Rock, but I don't think they were very good live. BTW what does being a funeral director have to do w/recognizing drumming ability. Also, since you have over 21,000 albums/cd's, and you own SO MANY Zep recordings, how can you stand to listen to them if the drummer sucks? I know I only spend $ & KEEP the vinyl/cd's where everyone in the group is equal to the others. If 1 person in any band had the effect on me that Bonham has on you, I could not see keeping the album! Sure i've heard (for example) a great guitarist with a band that was'nt up to his level, but then I rarely keep the album, but wait, because I know the guitarist will soon find others that play at his level & then buy a better, well rounded product. Lastly on this, I guess the salt you were rubbing into the wound(mine I suspect)was the Bonham was only as good as Carmine Appice? Well, while Carmine not as technically precise as many others(Cobham-Colaiuta-Simon Phillips, ect)I saw him with "Cactus" twice, Beck & Bogart once & saw the Fudge once, I thought he played well w/all 3 and especially the 1st version of Cactus & BBA kicked ass. Again, if you are better great. BTW, you mentioned Cobham as a great drummer(I agree, saw him 6 times)& he played w/the great Tommy Bolin who self admitted he could'nt read a note of music, but Bolin played with & liked both Carmine & Cobham. I really enjoy Mike Giles drumming & Jamie's percussion was phenomenal, and I do appreciate Bruford(his ego notwithstanding)but to say 1 KC song w/any of them in it has more talent than all of Bonhams catalog is simply being an elitist, & again HOW CAN YOU ENJOY all those LZ songs/albums. Oh yeah, not that the public opinion of Drummer's matter's, but Bonham was voted into "Modern Drummers" Hall of Fame 3rd right behind Gene Krupa & Buddy Rich, 21 yrs ago. Just to mention a few others in the hHall of Fame, Moon-Peart-Gadd-Bellson-Williams-Cobham-Palmer-Bruford-Elvin Jones-Colaiuta-Bozzio-Dennis Chambers, ect. damned good company. Well i'm tired of this. Check out Niacin. Thanks, STEVEN MUNARI "A band is only as good as it's rythm section" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:09:29 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: xoxoxoxoxox's to Trey Hey you guys! Haven't ANY of you gone to see Trey's band this past week? I'm like a junkie desperately needing a fix! PLEASE, somebody.....tell me what I have missed! Oh, the agony...I can only imagine how sexy he looks, and I do....EXPLODING with creativity, unleashed from the restraints (oh, but how I long to put handcuffs on him right now, I do admit.) of the ridged King Crimson format.... Lets get back to the handcuffs for just a moment.....I must digress, since I can now think of NOTHING else once I have thought of him lying....in bed...restrained! You see, if I had him handcuffed to a bed rail, it is obvious that there is nothing that I could force him to do...except...what I want ...that I could do anything... Oh, but how my mind does wander! Sorry... OK, back to my request .....I'll fantasize alone...later...about Trey Gunn... Tell me, one of you men, who live to discuss the difference between the sound of the guitar from one show to the next...TELL ME I beg you....what is he like with his band ....what of Bob and Mike....more important to me,what does he wear, how does he sway....how tight are his pants? xoxoxoxox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:42:09 +0000 From: "CALEB BRADLEY" Subject: plymouth 71 disc i was wondering if anyone has a copy or could make a copy of the plymouth 71 show. i'm willing to buy, trade, or whatever. please respond via email. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:54:54 -0600 From: "Cedric Hendrix" Subject: The Best Guitarist? Does it Matter? Why, oh why, would we want to walk down the path of "So-and-so is the best guitarist of all time."? Such a thread is an exercise in futility, at best. Or yet another opportunity for ETers to snipe at worst. Such a list is subjective, to say the least. What are we basing this criteria on? The guitar is an instrument that can be played in so many ways by so many people, that no one can say with any authority who is the best at what he does. It's just a matter of individual taste. You have the lightning fast pickers (Fripp and Al DiMeola, for example), the sonic marvels (Belew, Tom Morello, David Torn), the blues machines (Hendrix, Vaughan, many Kings), the gut wrenchers (Santana, Beck), the shredders (Vai, Petrucci, Morse), the acoustic wonders (Segovia, Paco DeLucia), fusion jazzers (Scofield, Mike Stern), straight-ahead jazzers (Montgomery, Pass, Christian), and the hundreds of others that I missed, in those categories and so many more. The guitar is a great instrument, because whoever picks it up has a chance to make a sound all his own. And in that moment in time, when that CD whirls away on my deck, or I see him on the stage, that person is my favorite. So let's head this one off at the proverbial pass, and leave it at this: we have two outstanding guitarists in King Crimson. Let's enjoy them while we can, and accept anything else that catches our ears and gives us joy. This is why music is so wonderful. Nuff said. Peace to you all. Ced cirdec at brick dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:07:02 -0700 From: "Proginoskes" Subject: Re: The State of the Crimson In ET #933, Josh Chase wrote: > it has taken some time for them to shake off the > baggage of the previous incarnation of the band and become the > band they ARE, not the band they WERE. No, that's not fair. > To become the band they WILL BE, not the band they ARE. > Yeah, that's more like it. Actually, the definitive version of King Crimson (as judged by us in the 23rd century) -- they band they WILL EVENTUALLY BE -- will arise when Les Claypool becomes the bass player, Buckethead their keyboardist, and on drums ... Oh, wait, she hasn't been born yet. Seriously, Josh's fumbling with tenses shows one of the dangers in keeping your name during personell changes; people are really expecting the old band. This is probably the reason why Fripp wanted to name the 80's version of the band Discipline; a fresh start. (And now, some issues in the discussion about my review of KC in Phoenix starts to become clear; the band I paid to see was not the one that acutally performed. They DID have the same name, though. And yet another band with the same name performed in San Francisco, etc.) -- Christopher Heckman P.S. I know that Buckethead is "only" a guitarist, but ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:44:04 -0800 (PST) From: RS Subject: Heavy construkcion password? What is it? I was unable to retrieve it from the website. I'd really like to see the video footage. Thanks, RS ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #934 ********************************