Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #933 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 933 Saturday, 26 January 2002 Today's Topics: Fractal playing KC covers in SF area 02/02/02 The Bears are coming... Robert Fripp Diary Archives Request Re: Greatest Guitarists Crimson Sound Look-alikes So Close, It Feels Like Mine The State of the Crmson A guy named Bill Frisell. Damage on DGM fripp - satriani New Bears/Belew Interview on Innerviews Iconry, Idolatry, or Just Plain Factual? Re: Eye Lizards Re: Greatest Guitarist? What? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:26:55 -0800 From: Adrian Cockcroft Subject: Fractal playing KC covers in SF area 02/02/02 If you were disapointed that KC didn't play FraKCtured on the last tour, want to hear Red played faster than usual, or wonder if Breathless (from Exposure) is ever played live then come to Sunnyvale in the south San Francisco Bay Area on Saturday Feb 2nd and hear this and a strange mixture of other music played by Fractal with support from Mozaic at the Quarternote starting 9pm. This is the first gig of a regular monthly series to be continued on March 16th (with Fractal,Headshear and Loop.pooL) and April 20th (with Fractal and Mushroom). These bands are all part of the local Bayprog scene. You can hear and read about what it takes to play this music at the FraKCtured Zone, where there is an interview with Nic Roozeboom of Fractal. http://www.quarternote.com - the venue http://www.mp3.com/fractal_ or http://www.frakctal.com (sorry about the extra k) http://www.juggler.com/moziac http://www.frakctured.ukf.net - The FraKCtured Zone http://www.bayprog.org - bay area "prog rock" site We also thank Elephant Talk for bringing this band together in the first place. Cheers Adrian, Paul, Nic and Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:53:16 -0500 From: "Block Dog" Subject: The Bears are coming... Is anyone going to either of these shows? Feb 07 Blue Cats Knoxville, TN Feb 08 Music Zone Asheville, NC Tickets available on-line at: Http://www.concertwire.com I'll be at both, be sure and say howdy. block ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:45:10 -0000 From: David Pye Subject: Robert Fripp Diary Archives Request Does anybody know where I can find archives of Robert Fripp's online diaries (other than the daily archive at DGM)? Or does anybody have copies that they could let me have? I have missed most of them and would very much like to read them. There are no particular dates that I am after - I'm interested in any or all of them. Thanks in advance - David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:42:15 -0600 From: "Brothers, Michael (IA)" Subject: Re: Greatest Guitarists Michael Destefano said: >My last post was the infamous Tony Levin critique and boy, were people >quick to react! Now the last couple of issues the idea of Fripp or ANYONE >being the greatest guitarist has surfaced- and yet nobody has burst a vessel >over this ridiculous assertion! Michael, I think the reason this thread did not generate flames as your's did is the way the argument was presented. Nobody suggested Crim would be better off without Fripp, as you did in your Levin post. While the merits of your argument may have been sound (I didn't happen to agree with you), it's often the way those merits are packaged that counts. Take Care, mike Michael Brothers Iowa Army National Guard 515-334-2822 fax 515-252-4589 "We don't do enough bobsledding." -The Tick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:56:36 +0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: Crimson Sound I did an interesting project recently. I converted every studio KC CD from ITCOTCK through PX Heaven And Earth and included Earthbound over to MP3 format, and wrote it onto a single disc. Then I put it in my portable CD/MP3 player and hit shuffle and listened off and on for several days. With roughly 137 or so tunes, the sequencing was fascinating. RF has stated in various places about music which is Crimson or music which is "in the air" waiting for Crimson to play it. I am so biased that everything fit in the shuffle mode (with exception to I Talk To The wind, Cadence & Cascade and Two Hands). It didn't matter that Cat Food was followed by Neurotica by Formentera Lady by The ConstruKction Of Light by The Letters... It all fit. Has anyone else out there done this? Like I said, I am biased and so familiar with the music of KC it fit for me. Dan "Is it true you married him for money?" "I resent that innuendo." "Love flies out the door when money comes innuendo." Groucho marx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:42:22 -0600 From: "Charlie Yarwood" Subject: Look-alikes Pardon my straying from the subject at hand, but: Kev Wrote: > What I thought was really strange was the fact that > Frodo Baggins looked just like Jon Anderson in the > 70s, and Elrond looked like Steve Howe from the late > 80s. There's another good lookalike there. It was either Merry or Pippin, forgot which, that looked just like Jimmy Page from the '60s. :-) C Yarwood ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:23:14 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: So Close, It Feels Like Mine In ET 3932, Dave Bradshaw notes: > I was browsing on my PC while my wife was watching Hearbeat on TV, when I > recognised 21st Century Schidzoid Man. This is an unbelieveable coincidence! Just last week my wife was watching 21st Century Schidzoid Man on TV, when I was sure I heart Heartbeat! Uncanny! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:25:01 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: The State of the Crmson In ET #932, landerson7 at nyc dot rr dot com observes (and I'm editing): > Bu it became apparent to me that Crimson truly has a new sound. This > actually became most obvious with Constuction of Light: after hearing the > other new tunes, the "double duo" tune was now infused with the sound of the > newer tunes. Somehow, this band has changed. The result is that they've > moved into a very heavy territory... > In this case, its different. Crimson has a huge, dark powerful sound without > really trying to sound "big". It seems to be a function of the band having > become a true band. In a way, its almost the territory Crimson was SUPPOSED > to move into all along, but somehow couldn't. In a way, it almost seems like > after 30 years, the band has finally found itself in a way it never has > before. I think this is an interesting and worthwhile observation. Although I think I put a slightly different spin on it. Because the double trio became the double duo in a relatively brief time (the transition being the ProjeKcts work) and the double duo is a subset of the double trio, I think that the double duo started up in a place where the double trio left off. And it has taken some time for them to shake off the baggage of the previous incarnation of the band and become the band they ARE, not the band they WERE. No, that's not fair. To become the band they WILL BE, not the band they ARE. Yeah, that's more like it. I noticed at the show I caught at the Beacon that this Crim was more stripped down, darker, less "big" but more "fierce" than they had been just a few months before. And I agree that you can hear the change on Level Five. I guess what I'm saying is, the 2002 King Crimson is not the same band as the 2000 King Crimson. And I agree with the above-posted quoter that TCOL the song now sounds more like the new songs than it does the other songs on the TCOL album. Indeed, and I think I may have posted this before, I could be happy seeing an entire Crim show right now with all instrumentals. It's like... "We don't need no stinkin' vocals!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:01:01 EST From: SoWeAreDisguised at aol dot com Subject: A guy named Bill Frisell. Bill Frisell is probably my all-around favorite guitar player right now. I would definitely say he's the finest jazz guitarist alive and on CD. I guess the link-to-Fripp would be David Sylvian, who has featured Bill Frisell on numerous recent recordings, though never on the same album or song as Fripp. I feel that although this is a KC forum, Bill Frisell is worth mentioning, because I genuinely believe that it would be worthwhile for anyone reading this to purchase at least one BF disc (Bill Frisell, Kermit Driscoll, Joey Baron, Live). BF incorporates a unique blend of Americana-style sweetness, smoky jazz, and quirk into his compositions, many of which involve looping techniques similar to Frippertronics...but DIFFERENT! I play guitar loops myself, and hearing BF's chirping, bleeping delay lines has made me look at that genre in a whole new way. But that's just one facet of BF's greatness, perhaps even an insignificant facet at that. Somebody in issue #932 gave three criteria for evaluating a musician, so I'll use those here: 1. Originality: Bill Frisell excels in this category as a composer for guitar. He has a sense of harmony and counterpoint that I've never heard in jazz, rock, or classical in my experience. He rarely plays a recognizable shuffle, bossa nova, or any kind of conventional pattern normally associated with those genres. His "cover songs" are numerous and inspired; the album Have a Little Faith includes his band's renditions of everything from Aaron Copland to Bob Dylan to Madonna, all in his lucid instrumental style. 2. Technique: I wouldn't say BF has incredible technique, nowhere near the blistering arpeggios of McLaughlin or Petrucci. But technique isn't simply how fast one can play. BF's technique, indeed, his entire sound, rests upon a bizarre method of subtly bending the neck of his guitar after playing a note; the result sounds almost like a slow vibrato, only each string is bent slightly differently from the next...it's like a manual, non-electronic chorus effect. Every element of his style, from his palm muting to the open-string strumming he is popular for, is highly refined over years of playing. 3. Individuality: For the above two reasons, I've never heard anyone sound like BF, except for myself, because I'm on a silly little quest to emulate his tone and style exactly...and I'm still not even close! His sound is instantly identifiable, and the only people who might sound like him are guys like me who intentionally (and shamelessly) imitate him. The same goes for anybody; it's easy to run an overdriven guitar through a bunch of effects and MOMENTARILY sound similar to Fripp. But that doesn't mean he's not unique, it just means I'm not. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:59:14 EST From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Damage on DGM > > "So, for those who want the book, or the Sylvian/Fripp Damage CD, and have > had trouble finding one or both, take a look at www.amazon.co.uk." > > Both items are also available at DGM !!! > www.disciplineglobalmobile.com > I think this is the new remaster, done by David Sylvian, not the old one with the black box and libretto. Experts, please correct me if I'm mistaken.....gently please. Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: hugh manatee Subject: fripp - satriani > But Fripp as greatest guitarist? He would have to > do Joe Satriani-like album to get me to start > thinking in that direction. > so turning pointlessly fast, stupid, and tasteless would make Fripp _better_? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:39:12 -0800 From: Anil Prasad Subject: New Bears/Belew Interview on Innerviews Hi folks, Innerviews just published a new interview with The Bears (A. Belew/C. Arduser/B. Nyswonger/R. Fetters). There's a bit of Krimson yap in it too. You can check it out at: http://www.innerviews.org Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:39:32 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Iconry, Idolatry, or Just Plain Factual? The idea that any guitarist is *the greatest* is, of course, subjective, but within that subjectivity, one may show why ones viewpoint is valid in its assertions. I, for one, consider Robert Fripp to be the greatest player ever to wield the instrument, an opinion backed by an attentiveness Ive paid to his compeers. I place huge valuation on McLaughlin, Towner, Gismonti, Abercrombie, Satriani, Coryell, and no end of the masters, but let me state why I think Robert aces them all. Hes as versatile as any but displays a depth and dimensionality that none can surmount. In Giles, Giles & Fripp, he showed a brilliant acoustic technique similar to another grossly undersung acoustician, Ian Anderson. In ITCOTCK, he trotted out chops to drop the jaw of Pete Townshend (whose adverted acclaim drew me to KC and guaranteed my allegiance to progressive music). With Eno, he revealed a panoply of voices and techniques that surpassed his previous catalogue. Then *No Pussyfooting* and *Evening Star*, which, over and above unique compositional and playing techniques also showcased sounds that none have yet figured out or topped (especially that mind-blowing buzz-saw / 747 / violin meld in *Wind on Water*). In the R.F. String Quintet (see the video), he unveiled a form of modern chamber music that matches the beauty of Roger Enos efforts, which are amongst the best Ive heard since Beethovens late string quartets, not to mention the works of Ravel, Pachelbel, Faure, and others (and lets not forget the beautiful *Song of the Gulls*). Then came not only that marvelous and, yes, swinging gamelon style with *Discipline* but those engaging soundscape stylings, some of which are merely interesting, others of which are stunning. Next, the subjects of his invented tunings and extraordinarily effective teaching method and seminars, extensions of his own and Bennetts mindfulness. However, the stand-outs to me, the soul of how deeply his mind burrows into his art, are the solo in Lizard and that fiery coda at the tail end of *Groon* (the song cut on the LP of the same name), not to mention the cannonball middle section of Babys on Fire (which surprised even his staunchest adherents). These do not brand him as uniquely as other instances in the canon, but instead carry an intensity and physical power rarely summoned, even by the most leonine. Couple all that with his remarkable intelligence and personna and you have an exemplary musician and composer. It has taken many many years for his far-reaching influence to be understood and appreciated, but thats indeed slowly happening. Along with Eno, I consider him to be one of the most lastingly influential musicians of the 20th century (as the Beatles influence wanes, Enos and Fripps still wax) and think his work will be the topic of study for successive generations. Too, his unique thought and efforts in regard of artists rights, as well as his principled stances and business practices are echoed only in Frank Zappas political and social commentaries. No one else comes close to talking the talk AND walking the walk than those two, while yet holding ace cards of dazzling achievement otherwise. To be frank, I consider Fripp as much of importance, in his own multiplicit way, as Buckminster Fuller, Noam Chomsky, Zappa, Max Ernst, Salvador Dali, or any of a handful of people who have honed themselves to be pinnacle statements of whats achievable in a lifetime, not only within the realm of the artist, but just as human beings. This is something that, up to this point, only friends have known in my sentiments, but my reason for stating it here is simple: 1) people have a detestable habit for validating greatness usually only after the admired individual is dead (a fat lot of good that hypocrisy does anyone), and 2) if we do not point to those who provide our highest statements as exemplars, what do we then settle for? Second best? No thanks. Ill happily look the idolator in espousing where I plainly see greatness and then hope that those who bother to also look will get at least a quarter of the benefit I have. Thats whats called *evolution*. I do not invite anyone to agree with me nor do I need to know why my assertions might be *mistaken*; I already know all the arguments pro and con and could care less. This is merely one of those things I feel very strongly about and state so only in order that someone somewhere might, as I've said, be swayed to inspect my words, look into their subject, and find the unique riches Id not want to be hoarded to only the few. In this venue, it may well only be a matter of preaching to the converted, but, then, one never knows and certainly there are very few forums where, even amongst publications dedicated to music and guitar playing, Fripp is acknowledged with anything remotely approaching respect or intelligence. Heres as good a place as any. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:38:12 -0500 From: Steve Rewa Subject: Re: Eye Lizards Hi Everyone, I'm catching up after about a month of back issues, but I think I'm close enough to post again. If not, sorry. I found a couple things in Art's post in #930 pretty interesting. First off, I agree about the mini lp sleeves being really inconvenient. I'm a bit of a collector in general, so I like them from that standpoint, but I keep them stored away and put the discs in empty jewel cases. I do like to listen to the first couple albums through, though I can understand why you wouldn't want to. Personally, I'm a completist so I want to hear everything. I also think Formentara might be KC's best piece of work. It's hard to pick it as my favorite and usually when I try to think of my favorite, that one doesn't even come to mind. But when I hear it, it hits like most of their other songs don't. Finally, I'm curious about how you removed the jam from moonchild. I wouldn't want to do it for that song, but I can think of some others that could use some snipping. I can't think of a way to do it without really obvious breaks in the song. If others of you out there had ideas I wouldn't mind hearing them. Best to e-mail privately I suppose (rewastev at msu dot edu). Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:29:37 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: Greatest Guitarist? What? Hello Again; I'm having a hard time with different ET'er's even seriously thinking of 1 person being the "Greatest" at anything, let alone Robert Fripp Greatest Guitarist!! While i've read a couple of posts on this subject that bring up "some" valid points, I still thought more of the collective intelligence of ET reader's & posters to think that this would even be considered!! Of course there are MANY Great guitarists out there, but far less fall into the catagory of "Guitar Geniuses"; & I feel Fripp certainly belongs in that catagory, for his great body of compositions, as well as his approach TO the guitar itself which would include his tuning, and "special" use of electronics, & so much more. However for anyone to try & compile a list, or to single out 1 person as the greatest is ludicrous. This would certainly be childish & consist of ONLY opinions! As far as making a list of Guitar Geniuses, that too would be nearly impossible to do, & would also just be differing opinions, but IMO would be more fun. So as a short list of whom "I" would consider falling into that catagory, & I will be leaving many out, I would think right away of: Robert Fripp Jeff Beck whom I think certainly belongs, because of his Les Paul like approach to inventing devices that completely change the sound of the electric guitar.(He even made his own 1st guitar & while still VERY young figured out how to rewire his 1st cheap amp & plug into it, incorrectly to get distortion & odd sounds!!)Plus his huge body of work was groundbreaking from "making" the Yardbirds more than a Blues band, to his 1st Jeff Beck Group in which he invented things on the spot in "live" appearences here in the U.S. & wherever they toured. In fact every new lp release as the Jeff Beck Group or as Beck-Bogart & Appice or as just Jeff Beck, including the brilliant scoring he did on what I believe was a tv series produced by Brittish tv about the war in Veitnam called, somebody's house(My old brain can't bring out the exact title, & i'm not where I can go find the cd's I have that much of the music/sound effects are on, but I know someone out there will bring up the right name)which was stunning, right up to "Guitar Shop" "Who Else" & the mind blowing "You Had It Comming" which in MHO is 1 of the greatest guitar cd's(altho short in length)ever done! Beck is a genius. John McLaughlin would IMO have to be on this list for everything he's done from working w/Miles & Tony Williams, to I believe actually changing a music from Electronic Jazz to what truly became fusion & more w/the early releases of the Mahavishnu Orchestra albums. To me, seeing that band in 71 & 72 "live" from approx 10 feet away, my chest resting against the low wooden stage of the Keil Auditorium, was as close to being a "religious experience" or "spirutal" one as I have ever come on a musical plane.Plus his classical guitar work w/2 other GREAT guitarists, up to today's material. Genius. Jimi was here too shortly for us to know what may have been, but what we have HAS to be considered genius. Frank Zappa: Ah, many may not consider FZ to be a "Guitar" genius, but having more releases by Frank(both bottlegs & the material available to the masses)than any other musician & having seen him live more times than I can count, IMO FZ was truly a masterful guitar genius, as well as being the greatest composer of extremely diverse types of music of the last 50 years. People whom enjoy FZ will be able to purchase old, "newer music" of his for years to come as he wisely recorded almost everything!! A "No Commercial Potential" Genius if there ever was one. Les Paul...what can 1 say except, the Gibson company would'nt have made such a beautiful looking/sounding guitar w/o Les & his input, & where he wanted the guitar to "go" in terms of tone, sustain, playability & truly artistic looks, & the 50's versions command truly sick amounts of money, & Gibson has made billions from the sales of it. Les Paul Genius. I said at the begginning i'd only be able to do a short list & would have to leave so MANY out, but the above names were "some" of the 1st I thought of, and are mostly contemporary enough for most ET'er's to identify with. There are many other people that are either Guitar Geniuses, or will soon be considered as such, people like Steve Vai who is more than a "shredder" who CAN play faster than it seems possible, & Vai has a larger body of work than most people probably think. Most think of Steve's incredible work w/FZ for so many years, & his fairly large volume of solo work, but one just has to go to Vai's website to find he is releasing a 10 disc boxed set which contains stuff either no longer available, or as he learned from Frank, other, newer, or never before released material that he began recording nearly everything he did, live or studio as I believe he refer's to it, street recordings. What the hell, Vai...genius. If this begins others to compile same type lists i'll be looking forward to reading them. A greatest guitarist, that's not possible,(IMO)but Fripp is a guitar genius, & hopefully will continue to put out material until his fingers or mind no longer work! Thanks guys, STEVEN MUNARI "I want what I do to be fresh; whether it's in the right direction or not, time will tell." Jeff Beck ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #933 ********************************