Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #932 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 932 Thursday, 24 January 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Heavy Cons video and XP Vroom Vroom error fripp as greatest guitarist Re: Top five of 2001 and another suggested list and drummers Re: Fripp couldn't be the greatest guitarist CDs for Sale/ trade Re: KC Book and Damage The New Crimson "Sound" greatest guitarists KC on UK TV Collectors Club #7 for trade Fripp nothing but the Greatest PG1-4 Thanks kc t-shirt Further Stephen King references? Lord Of The Rings/Yes Five Nickle Bags (come see about me) Math Rock Revisited ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: david craig Subject: Re: Heavy Cons video and XP That video clip seems to have some encoding problems that make it very skitty; people have had a variety of problems with it on both Windows and the Mac OS. There's some wonderful music there, but getting at it can be qutie vexing [:-)]. It would be nice to see a cleaned-up version of this released some day. David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:00:59 -0400 From: Raleigh Dailey Subject: Vroom Vroom error Has anybody encountered a mastering error on Vroom Vroom CD2, track 4, from about 4:45-5:00? I have found this on two separate copies sold in different states. I keep returning them to the stores, only to find identical errors. Help! rd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:54:28 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Stack Subject: fripp as greatest guitarist You know, all things being equal, I was surprised to see that people here generally don't quantify Fripp as the "greatest" guitarist. In truth, the term is somewhat subjective, and greatest IMHO can probably be best viewed relative to generation, i.e. a guitarist is great in an era given that he builds on what came before, adds his own contribution, and is technically a cut above virtually everyone else. Pesonally, I've always quantified greatness amongst in three ways-- originality, technique, and individuality. By originality, I refer to the quality of sounding like yourself. There are many musicians who are greatly talent, technically speaking, but are not instantly recognizable as themselves. Technique is quite simply just the ability of the performer from a purely technical perspective. Individuality is the quality of not having imitators capable of reproducing your sounds or abilities. Mind you, there are few musicians who excel at all three of these, but who, nonetheless, are incredible musicians. My two favorite trumpet players both fall into this category. Miles Davis did something completely different in music, and no matter how hard people sound just like him, I can hear the weight of Miles' playing in his horn as opposed to anyone else, even if they imitate his style. But technically, Miles wasn't the best, or even near to the best. Same goes for Don Cherry, who had minimal chops but incredible inventiveness on his instrument. Back to the subject of guitarists, and how they relate to Crimson, if I think about it the same way, there is probably no guitarist who I've heard of his generation with the technique of Robert Fripp, the only exception being perhaps John McLaughlin. Actually, I suspect there are no moer than a half dozen or so guitar players I can think of who have a technique comparable to Fripp (Vernon Reid of Living Colour comes to mind immediately). As far as originality goes, Fripp brought as much to guitar-based music as anyone else, perhaps more. From the level of complexity he introduced to the rock guitar to his ambient experiments (admittedly with a healthy dose of help from Eno) to his fusion of different styles, techniques, philosophies, etc. Finally, Fripp always sounds like Fripp, and no one else sounds like him. I suspect no one else could. I've heard Fripp is dozens of settings, from ambient to heavy metal to classical to blues and jazz and new wave and overblown progressive rock, and Fripp is always Fripp. My love for the last twenty-one years of King Crimson stems from the fact that Fripp decided to pair himself with the only guitarist who may exceed him in terms of inventiveness of form and idea. Adrian Belew, IMHO, has produced more from a guitar than just about any musician has produced on any instrument. Alas, I'm curious just what RF, AB, etc. would think of this thread, but nonetheless, my thoughts on the matter. mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:43:41 -0500 From: "Nick Naffin" Subject: Re: Top five of 2001 and another suggested list and drummers Scott wrote: > Lastly, I thought I'd suggest another list. Given that many Crimson fans > share tastes as has been often noted of late, how about literature? For > starters here is my top 5 fiction (not necessarily in order) For > one, I put > an author instead of one particular work since I couldn't decide between > them: > 1) Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse. Classic tale of Buddha. Sure you didn't mean 'Siddharta'? Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:05:48 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Wingo Subject: Re: Fripp couldn't be the greatest guitarist > But Fripp as greatest guitarist? He would have to do > a Joe Satriani-like album to get me to start > thinking in that direction. > Well, he IS supposed to guest on Satriani's next album. I've no idea to what extent he's involved, although I'd be inclined to think that he's recorded some soundacapes for Satch to use . . . Hope that's enough Satriani connection for you. Adios, Tom Wingo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:06:15 -0500 From: "Jim" Subject: CDs for Sale/ trade I'm clearing out a few titles- Thrang Thrang Gozinbux (League of Gentleman Live), Epitaph Vols 3&4, Islands (original CD, not the remaster). Please e-mail me your offer (cash or will trade lot for Collector Club CD ). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:30:42 +0100 From: "Roger Corvers" Subject: Re: KC Book and Damage In ET #931 "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." wrote: "So, for those who want the book, or the Sylvian/Fripp Damage CD, and have had trouble finding one or both, take a look at www.amazon.co.uk." Both items are also available at DGM !!! www.disciplineglobalmobile.com Roger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:45:00 -0500 From: "Ling & Emory" Subject: The New Crimson "Sound" While making the long drive back from Boston to NYC a couple of days ago, I was listening to the Level5 CD. Residual snow hit the windshield, and the landscape was appropriately bleak. Bu it became apparent to me that Crimson truly has a new sound. This actually became most obvious with Constuction of Light: after hearing the other new tunes, the "double duo" tune was now infused with the sound of the newer tunes. Somehow, this band has changed. The result is that they've moved into a very heavy territory...in previous incarnations of Crimson, after a few years their sound would kind of coalesce into what I call a "big rock act" sound, kind of like what U2 started to sound like with the song "Red Hill Mining Town"...kind of trying to sound huge and stadium-filling, and sounding more like a rock "act" than a powerful band making big music. You can hear some of that on Absent Lovers (which I like, nevertheless). In this case, its different. Crimson has a huge, dark powerful sound without really trying to sound "big". It seems to be a function of the band having become a true band. In a way, its almost the territory Crimson was SUPPOSED to move into all along, but somehow couldn't. In a way, it almost seems like after 30 years, the band has finally found itself in a way it never has before. And don't get confused...I'm not necessarily saying this band is making the best music of Crimson's career, or that I necessarily like it the best (the now-apparent tension between Bruford's and Fripp's musicalities was actually a very interesting part of Bruford-Crimsons). But in a way, this Crimson's music is more compact, more sure of itself, more truly Crimson (in certain aspects of the term) than previous incarnations. Anyone agree? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:42:57 -0500 From: "Michael Destefano" Subject: greatest guitarists My last post was the infamous Tony Levin critique and boy, were people quick to react! Now the last couple of issues the idea of Fripp or ANYONE being the greatest guitarist has surfaced- and yet nobody has burst a vessel over this ridiculous assertion! If one were asked to define what makes a great instrumentalist, you might be hard pressed to list more than a couple of concrete criteria......... Do you judge greatness on how fast you play? How accurately you play? How fast and accurately you play in the largest number of contiguous octaves, in odd numbered meters for no less than six minutes...... Or does it have more to do with emotion, soul and beauty: "That solo was so sad and pretty:I cried!" Interpretive skill? An equal combination of all? Sure, that sounds good! The worlds greatest guitarist should be the blind guy who can play (insert your own most difficult piece of music) at twice the speed, so cleanly that each note rings like an angels kiss, so reminiscent of a childhood memory it brings a sudden burst of cathartic tears to everyone listening. Like everybody else, I have my personal favorites-Fripp included. Not all great guitarists embody the pomp,circumstance, and power of the"accepted greats":Some players are great accompanists, they have an approach to their instrument which best suits to color a piece, to capture the essence without using big broad strokes. I prefer to judge players abilities within a genre, or by the purpose they serve. There are alot of sixteen year old(as well as thirty year old) shredders who can't even perceive what being a great guitarist is-they have mind blowing technical ability due to practice and hard work, but nuance and emotion can't be practiced: it comes from experience and things intangible. The strongest man in the world usually isn't the best fighter...... Some guitarists are also composers, which brings up another issue: do they play well because they write well? A dullard can be taught to perform tasks, but on the other hand, a brilliant person can aquire a number of abilities that enhance all aspects of what they do. I'm staying away from using individuals as examples because taste and opinion begin to overide clear thinking. The first rule of debate has always been: don't set your course by emotion-you'll lose perspective immediatly. I'll finish up by saying that without a doubt Robert Fripp is the greatest guitarist King Crimson had in the 70's...... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:32:34 -0000 From: "Dave Bradshaw" Subject: KC on UK TV I was browsing on my PC while my wife was watching Hearbeat on TV, when I recognised 21st Century Schidzoid Man. It was only on briefly, but later in the show they used I Talk to the Wind. For those that don't know it, Heartbeat is a second rate TV show about a local police force in a small Yorkshire village. It doesn't just see the past through rose tinted spectacles, more cerise coloured blinkers. It uses snatches of 60's music, mostly pop chart hits, as a hook to keep the viewers attention while some nefarious villain steals the vicars candlestick, or whatever. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:52:03 From: "Matt D" Subject: Collectors Club #7 for trade I have a copy of The Roar of Projekct Four- King Crimson collectors club #7. Looking to trade for Robert Fripp's November Suite or King Crimson Collectors Club-Live in Berkeley. Interested? Please let me know. Matt www.spacestationintegration.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:31:05 +0100 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Fripp nothing but the Greatest I don't know if I would exactly say that 'Master Fripp' is the greatest guitarist ever. But if for some reason I had to choose only one guitarist to listen to for my remaining days, it would be him. Someone mentioned Metheny, who is great, this guy can really rock an elevator or grocery store, in comparison to the Frippster. Or Vai and Joe Satriani, I love to listen to these guys noodle around, tweeddelin and squallin. But wouldn't it suck to play in these guys bands comparatively to Crimson, BORING! The Beast, edges these guys buy working with the others and snorting at just the right time to send a chill through your sole. For me Robert captivates my interest making me listen closer and closer. The music never gets boring even after tens or more than a hundred listens. These other greats make the skip button essential. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:03:29 From: "Markus Gnad" Subject: PG1-4 Thanks Hello all, lotsa Thank you's for the many mails I got re Peter Gabriel 1-4 and these "secret names". Markus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:16:24 EST From: "alexis rondeau" Subject: kc t-shirt Hi, i just had a go at coming up with some Kc t-shirt concepts that i think would be fun. They are very much inspired by Denis Rodier's artwork (you know the BPM&M artwork on papabear) an you can see them on my website... http://www3.sympatico.ca/legault-pepin/Fun/Kc.html I have lots of ideas for more but so litle time. Anyway i'll probably turn one of those into a t-shirt for myself one of those days. Alx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:37:24 +0000 (GMT) From: SoWeAreDisguised at aol dot com Subject: Further Stephen King references? Hello all, I'm sure most of you know about the Stephen King book which refers to "the court of the Crimson King" at some point, but are you aware that in another book, entitled The Stand (also a film), the main villian's character is named Randall Flagg...he appears in different cities under different names, but his initials are always "R.F." Coincidence? You decide. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:08:18 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Marriott Subject: Lord Of The Rings/Yes What I thought was really strange was the fact that Frodo Baggins looked just like Jon Anderson in the 70s, and Elrond looked like Steve Howe from the late 80s. Bizarre stuff.. ===== -- Kev "These go to 11" - Nigel Tufnel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:59:22 -0500 From: Bill Messinger Subject: Five Nickle Bags (come see about me) Oh Ruby, for God's sake turn around It's most heartening to see so many posts dealing with the form of King Crimson songs. With so many time signatures analysed and numerized, we may eventually have a Crimson Caballah! Weaving a song and a spell is only right, only natural by virtue of its occurrence, and rock music is after all, the rightful heir to Crowleyean synchronicity. King Crimson: The Great Beast & Scarlet Woman 333-55555-333 Whore-us ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:59:22 -0500 From: "Stephen P. Carl" Subject: Math Rock Revisited When I drive long distances, I keep a large supply of Crimson and related music available so that if necessary I can jolt myself away from somnambulism with tearing riffs, nifty time sigs, and complex interlocking figures. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. For reasons that many ET readers will no doubt understand, when driving with my family I find it necessary to wait to listen to KC until the other occupants of the vehicle have fallen asleep (no, it doesn't wake up the young ones, though it may affect their dreams!). This is because I often get comments from my lovely, intelligent wife such as last summer, after putting on the KCCC disc Live at Berkeley: "This is music for schizophrenics". She was right, of course (she intended no pun!), but she was also annoyed. However, on my most recent drive late into the night, I put everybody to sleep with some soothing jazz and then brought out Level 5. Eventually I realized she was awake and listening. She sometimes gamely tries to get her brain around the work of Fripp&Co. (in small doses, when not otherwise stressed, etc.). This time she listened to the whole thing, and afterward made the following set of observations, which tie into the recent "Math Rock" tread: 1) Most Pop music is the equivalent of arithmetic. More interesting popular stuff might make it to the level of jr. high-level math. 2) Most of the more popular or accessible jazz and symphonic music might be equivalent to algebra, geometry, trig and so on. The more adventurous stuff and good solid complex symphonies are (to her) the equivalent of calculus. 3) The music of Robert Fripp, she said, is differential equations. >From her, this represents the apex of musical complexity, for diffeq was a bit beyond what she felt comfortable studying in college. And no, she didn't see the math rock thread. -spc PS I find it is time to part with my 1994 Sylvian|Fripp "Damage" CD (in box, with booklet). The box is fading but the disk and book are in good shape. If interested, send email to spc at acm dot org and look at www.cs.wright.edu/~scarl/cd.html for availability of this and a handful of other titles. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #932 ********************************