E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 927 Tuesday January 1, 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: Discussions Now Off Topic trio tune Bowie quotes Fripp Download - Live in Mexico City (Doulble Trio) VROOOM VROOOM playback problems Cancelling a DGM USA order: impossible? why such a vast variation in reviews? The cost of software "audience distillation" responses response -- etc. Magna Carta / Niacin The Brondesbury Tapes (1968) KC and the Rock Hall Is God Bonzo? Answering the Effete My top five for 2001 More Bonzo Worship Let's continue to pretend.... ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is temporarily being produced using Cheetah PRO Mailing Systems (c) Black Cat Software Factory (info at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tuesday, 1 Jan 2002 10:05:32 From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: NEWS: Discussions Now Off Topic People of ET - Okay everyone - enough about John Bonham and the Geopolitical philosophy behind the USA already. Anything more about either subject will not be published in ET. Thank you for your co-operation! Mike Dickson, Temporary Elephant Talk Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 29 Dec 2001 17:24:13 From: proginoskes at email dot msn dot com (Proginoskes) Subject: trio tune Bruce Friedman wrote: > I was at the K.C. concert in Los Angeles in November 2001 (thereabouts). > I'm wondering if anyone can tell me about the trio tunes played during > the encore. (Fripp w/bass and drums) One had a synth (mellotron like > chords). There was a new piece presented by KC (in the main set, not as an encore, in their performance at Phoenix) which started off and ended up with synthesized horns. I can't quite tell from your description whether this was it. > The other one was the one I'm trying to locate on CD. Fripp > played guitar, in a somewhat random sounding style, throwing notes > around the room, so to speak. The rhythm section simply (and nicely) > vamped behind him. Is this tune recorded anywheres? For some reason, I was reminded of a tune that KC played on the video on "Heavy ConstruKction", with Fripp playing a few thousand notes a second (a slight exaggeration). And a question which is slightly off topic. Toby, why hasn't my transcript to "The Sun Is Shining" made it to the tablature page? -- Christopher "HeKcman" ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 29 Dec 2001 21:07:19 From: Oidtman at aol dot com Subject: Bowie quotes Fripp One could only hope that Bowie and Fripp do another album together. Heroes is by far the ultimate album to listen to. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 29 Dec 2001 22:34:14 From: Stevejen at aol dot com Subject: Download - Live in Mexico City (Doulble Trio) Is it possible to still download Live in Mexico City? I finally have a computer to do it. [Replies by e-mail only, please! -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 29 Dec 2001 22:59:03 From: Kaefs73 at aol dot com Subject: VROOOM VROOOM playback problems Hello, friends- Has anybody reading this had any trouble with the playback of "VROOOM VROOOM?" I received the CD for Christmas and found CD 2 to be defective. Specifically, the disc began skipping during track #4 ("People"). Assuming I had a defective CD (I tested it out on a few players), I returned it to the store -- only to get another problematic disc! The same thing was wrong: CD 2, track #4. I am alone in this? Hopefully the third disc will be the keeper! Thanks for reading. Happy New Year to all. Cheers- Mark Kaefer Kaefs73 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 29 Dec 2001 22:33:29 From: ronc at cogs dot susx dot ac dot uk (Ron Chrisley) Subject: Cancelling a DGM USA order: impossible? On December 13th, I ordered the Level Five CD from DGMUSA on the web (order 103840). Within a few minutes of ordering, I found out that I was getting one for Christmas, so I emailed DGMUSA and used the web-based communication/comments form, asking them to cancel my order, and apologising for any inconvenience. I got no reply. Then, a few days later, I got an automated response, saying the CD had shipped. I immediately emailed back saying that this was a mistake, that I canceled the order, and that I would like a refund, and would even be willing to pay for the return shipping at my own expense, even though it was their mistake. This was two weeks ago, and I have heard nothing from them. Any advice as to what I can do? Perhaps at this point I should complain to my credit card company? But we don't want DGMUSA to get bad marks, do we? Ron ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 03:06:03 From: GrooveHolmes394 at hotmail dot com (Jordan Clifford) Subject: why such a vast variation in reviews? I am tired of people on this list calling those of us who expect anything from demi gods King Crimson not "real" fans or not true music "enthusiasts". I consider myself a true music enthusiast, but according to some ETers id probably be both because i expect things out of bands i see, and there for leave myself open for disapointment. I can be a music enthusiast and experiance a concert and be completely happy and impressed with the performance and still have complaints. While I did go into this show with almost 0 expectations of the band except to come out excited and impressed by a great performance and great new material(and thats exactly what happened), when i came out and thought about it couple days later a few things occured to me. It doesnt take away from the performance though, its obviously very difficult to draw that line here. The set WAS too short. what i got was incredible, and yes ill take what i can get, happily. that doesnt take away from the simple fact that it was too short. When it comes down to it thats my only real complaint. Apparently by trying to discuss the shows on this list and saying that i wish they had played VROOOM or THRAK, or that it was too short, or that ive seen better cd prices and ticket prices in my day, i have offended some of the readers. Let me wholeheartedly apoligize that my love for the band and their music makes me want them to play for 2 hours rather then 1. OH yea, my second real complaint, no improvs. Let me also apoligize that I would have enjoyed seeing one of my favorite bands taking me into a world of their personal creative exploration the 1 time ive ever seen them live. While it didnt make their performance WORSE, it didnt make it BETTER without them. once again, im sorry for that. >The reason there is such a variation in show reviews is this; some >people attending are true music enthusiasts arriving with no >expectations and some are pompous jackasses. I had the pleasure of >being sandwiched between a few of these "fans" both during the show and >exiting the venue after, all of them complaining, "the set was too >short, they didn't play enough old stuff, they all seemed tired," etc. >Why not just say, I paid my hard-earned money and the band didn't jump >through hoops for me? Please, let's all reevaluate why we attend >concerts and choose our bands accordingly. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 11:36:18 From: landerson7 at nyc dot rr dot com (Ling & Emory) Subject: The cost of software I keep reading about people bitching about the cost of tickets and CDs. Part of me agrees and sympathizes: I remember not having too much of an income, and when a couple of extra dollars in my pocket from a tip made a real difference. So my rant is not really geared towards those of you in that realm. Let me tell you a story. Back in about 83 or so I was traveling in Mexico and did the tourist thing at Tenochitlan (Pyramid of the Sun), and a Mexican guy came up to me with a gorgeous silve belt buckel in his hand, with that Mayan calender inlaid on it. I actually didn't have a lot of money on me, so when I said I only had like $15 on me he was perhaps rightly insulted: this was an artisan with a beautiful work of his craftsmanship in his hands. He was insulted that it looked as if I didn't value the quality of his work to the point where I was willing to really pay for it. In some of our rants about ticket and CD prices where King Crimson is concerned, aren't we doing the same thing? Look, Brittney tickets could easily cost $50, so shouldn't Crimson tickets cost a LOT more given the quality of the work, and given what was needed by the musicians to be able to play it? (ie, years and years of practice) Real music is not a commodity: you don't buy it by the pound. It's not some slop dished out in McDonalds: this is a meal at Nobu or Babbo that you are going to remember for years to come, so dish out the $$$ you cheap-asses, and be thankful you had the privelege. I live in New York and until recently worked in New Jersey. My co-wokers loved to goad me into my New Jersey food rant: New Jersey guys tend to state that such-and-such is an excellent restaurant, and they slowly crescendo into a description of the food being "THIS BIG" with outstretched hands. But if you've had real food and go to that restaurant, you'll find the food bland and uninteresting, though arguably "big". Therefore, I think Crimson should DOUBLE the ticket prices and drive all you little styrofoam food guys outta there. Go to your 3-hour Who/Yes/Genesis music extravaganzas and get your "money's worth", and order some Budweisers and a couple of big burgers to eat during the show. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 18:06:48 From: allen508 at hotmail dot com (Dave Allen) Subject: "audience distillation" responses response -- etc. Hello, I'm the guy that wrote the original "audience distillation" post in issue #924. In response to Trey Five Wind's response (#926) to Scott's response (#925) to my post, I'd like to suggest to anyone planning to base the longest post in an issue on a concept presented in one of my posts, to read my post first, address ME in your response, and state what issue # the post you're responding to was in so if anyone's interested, they can cross-reference. In his response, TFW misinterprets "audience distillation" as some sort of spiritual refinement of the individual listener. This is not what I was referring to with the phrase. I was talking about distilling the audience as a whole, separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak (am I eating enough?) - the smelting of the oredience!!! The chaff, or "impurities", I'm talking about here are not a spiritual fungus on the soul of the audient, but PEOPLE! Whole, walking, talking, pain-in-the-arse people! The repelling of this specific portion of the audience CANNOT be conducted through the music, as TFW suggests. If you'd read my original post, you'd know I was referring to people who are indifferent to music - they have NO TASTE for music. By "no taste" I don't mean "bad taste", as Scott took it (I find the notion of "good" and "bad" taste redundant and possibly dangerous). No, these fickle folks are attracted to the surface of things - the image - what it represents socially, how it's perceived by others. They are primarily concerned with projecting and reinforcing their own self-image, and use everything around them to achieve this end. The "wheat" here are, again, people whose taste for music sympathizes with that of the band's, people who are there simply to listen to, and hopefully enjoy, the music. My theory is that the band would prefer an audience of wheat...(? >From what I've read about, and by, Robert Fripp (I've got the Deja Vrooom DVD 100 page commentaries, read his postings on this site, and plenty of diary entries), one could reasonably argue that HE is obsessed with projecting and reinforcing HIS own self-image (although you couldn't say that he's indifferent to music). I've also never read anything about "audience distillation" with regard to RF, or otherwise. So what are the odds that this is his conscious aim? As a matter of fact, there are probably lots of people who view themselves as intelligent a-holes and are attracted to RF because he's perceived this way. So my "theorem" doesn't really work in this case, does it? If this post helps by offending this minute freak faction, I'm glad to be of service. Why am I poking holes in my own theory? I'm bored with it. Next subject. In response to Kris M's post (#923), I was on the left side of the "gallery" (top balcony) at the Massy Hall gig. It wasn't too loud from up there, but there was a definite lack of distinction in the sound. If I get the chance to see them again, maybe I'll spend the cash and get better seats. I also bought the Level 5 EP which prompted me to write a post about The Deception of the Thrush in issue 924 (btw did anyone try the ConstruKction of Light/Christmas tree thing? Try the studio version for better stereo effect while there's still some Christmas trees left!). - Dave P.S. I hate to shatter any illusions, but as far as any of you know, "Josette" could be a 500 lb. perverted biker from Idaho (look out Trey!). At least we now know how phone-sex can be a profitable enterprise! ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 10:32:03 From: stevem at thenightowl dot com (Steve Marshall) Subject: Magna Carta / Niacin Steven Munari posted about the merits of Magna Carta artists. Yes, there are a number of great CDs on this label. We have reviews for a lot of them at The Night Owl. To find them, just click on Search, type in Magna Carta and voila! Seriously, there are some great CDs on this label. As for the Niacin version of Red, yes, it's good. I like the extended ending a lot. I don't think it's one of their better efforts though. This is the 3rd CD I've heard and/or reviewed by them now. Their 2nd CD, High Bias, is their best... Steve Steve Marshall Editor - The Night Owl stevem at thenightowl dot com Now online - The Night Owl's Message Boards! Top 5 lists have posted by the staff. Check 'em out and leave your comments.... ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 14:53:47 From: Karnick at compuserve dot com (Loren Karnick) Subject: The Brondesbury Tapes (1968) Hi, The liner notes for the CD suggest that the CD incorporates the 13 tracks licensed to Tenth Planet Records for Metamorphosis, and says as well that the "CD represents the complete set of GG&F's domestic recordings pioneered by Peter Giles at 93A Brondesbury Road". I almost bought the vinyl, but couldn't stomach the cost and expect that anyone buying the CD will be reasonably satisfied. To the CD itself, anyone who has Giles, Giles & Fripp should be pleasantly surprised by these demos and whatnot. I have not been a fan of the tarted-up production on GG&F, all too precious for my taste, so much sugar that the music and songs become at best painful artifacts of the period. Remove the sugar and you have these tapes and while they are not perfect realizations, they are much more interesting that the GG&F versions. Also, there are a couple of surprises, Judy Dyble singing Peter Sinfield lyrics which makes me want to have heard Judy singing the songs of Still rather than Pete Sinfield. Ultimately, you can hear King Crimson in a number of these songs and hear that Robert Fripp was a very interesting guitarist from the get-go. Maybe those of you who resist paying full price for a cd (me most of the time) won't be interested, but I bit the bullet out of curiosity and am glad that I did. Happy New Year, Loren ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Dec 2001 22:57:39 From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: KC and the Rock Hall First, a Happy New Year to you from the hinterlands of Bowling Green, Ohio, where we cheerfully await the arrival of our copy of the Level Five CD. My wife and I finally made a trip to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland. I should suggest that if you have the opportunity, you should absolutely see it. The architecture and setting are really quite wonderful. We saw the John Lennon exhibit, which is powerful and disturbing, including as it does the clothing he wore when he was assassinated, blood-spattered eyeglasses and all. Yoko Ono's commentary on what the hospital called "Patient's Belongings" is utterly chilling; thankfully, all this is leavened a bit by an installation piece of hers -- a white telephone on a white table beside a white chair; the idea is that if the phone rings, it's Yoko on the other end. Don't hold your breath. Anyway....When we toured the area of the museum dedicated to rock fashions, and saw a Keith Emerson jumpsuit and one of Greg Lake's white suits (from the =E2=80=9873/'74 era, I take it), it struck me that I hadn't seen anything of Crimson's included there. We only spent about four hours there (trust me, you'll need more than that to see everything), so it's quite possible we missed something, but it didn't seem as though we did. Two points (Forgive me if this has been covered before): 1. At the very least, KC should be represented by some piece of memorabilia, if, as I must admit, something is there that I simply missed. One of the people who bought a mellotron, for example, might be persuaded to loan said instrument to the Rock Hall. Also lyric sheets, sheet music? I noticed that the curators of the Rock Hall set great store by the inclusion of original drafts. 2. Crimson manifestly deserves to be inducted. As to the latter, it's interesting to note how many singer-songwriters (US and Canadian, but predominantly the former) are included, and how few bands for whom musicianship is a primary consideration. Caveat: I have long-standing respect for the axiom "four chords and the truth," so long as there is an audible aesthetics present. Still, as my wife said while we were touring the facility, if the list of inductees indicates a narrative -- and how could it not? -- then the exclusion of bands such as KC says something important about what the judges value. At the risk of betraying a certain snobbery about music, here's a terribly subjective (and so, to many other, ridiculously incomplete) list of already-inducted performers for whom this sense of musicianship, or experimentalism, has authority: the Beatles (=E2=80=9888), Cream (=E2=80=98= 93, the year of Frank Zappa's death), the Dead (=E2=80=9894), Frank Zappa (two years too late -- is it any wonder that there was nothing apparent at the Hall to indicate his induction?), Pink Floyd (=E2=80=9896), and Santana (=E2=80=9898). According to the complete list of inductees, an unobservant attendant could leave the building without knowing that anything like a "progressive movement" ever even existed. That neither KC nor ELP are yet represented as inductees is an indication, I think, that the judges privelige a more basic song format and US musicians, by and large, over experimentation and musicians from other countries. This is not to say that the Rock Hall does not do well in terms of represented R & B music, also blues and country. As well it should. However, Zappa was not inducted until two years after his death, an oversight explained only by ignorance. Where are the grand technicians? We are probably in general agreement that KC, as one example, deserves a place in the Rock Hall, for innovation and for keeping to the premise that musicianship means something. Personally, I'd love to see this progressive oversight (Floyd excepted) dealt with in one year. Imagine KC, ELP, and Tull, let's say, all inducted in the same year. Imagine the closing jam, if you dare. What can we do about this? We could start by bringing this issue to the Rock Hall itself, for what it may be worth. Granted, the judges are "rock historians," and this is not supposed to be a popularity contest (though when you look at the list of inductees, isn't it already?); and yet, if no one says a word.... Sure, this is a New Year's fantasy. But those of us who don't dance might as well dream. Again, a Blessed New Year, everybody. John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 31 Dec 2001 02:05:35 From: progdawg at hotmail dot com (Mark Tucker) Subject: Is God Bonzo? Steve Munari: I'll use your pleasant post, which was of a spirit with Larry Moseley's, to address this while overblown brouhaha as a placeholder for the overall group sentiment, as some of your words ring in common with less restrained ones (that is: I'm answering your post in the abstract, not really to you personally): >To Mark Tucker: I simply cannot understand how you claim to LOVE Led >Zeppelin, but then don't "get" or respect John Bonham's fabulous drumming?? I 'get' and I respect his drumming, I'm just not nuts about it and rank him quite low on the list. It's very simple: I love Zep, I'm not impressed with Bonham. It's not necessary to idolize Bonham to like Zep - where would anyone obtain that computation? >Let's be truthful, "live" Keith was often sloppy. He also was exceedingly tight in the studio and often enough in concert (I saw him live; a very impressive lunatic and, yes, often as dissipated as Bonham) and could drum rings around Bonham, studio or live. >I would guess Mark, that you are NOT a drummer? Musician? I play guitar and some synth (released an well-received indie tape years ago, carried by ZNR and other music retailers). I don't remember, in the bible or elsewhere, this necessity to be a musician to understand music. It's a false posit on the face of it. You're obviously trying to relate your affinity for Bonham but you're erecting straw men for your arguments. >I say this because Bonham was THE hard rock drummer who >literally/figuratively, got probably 100,000 kids to pick up drumsticks & >become, or try & become drummers! So did Peart, Bushy, hell even Ringo (and now I'll have to listen to how Ringo, god help us, was also The God Of Drums). >Oh well, if you don't get it, all the words I type won't change how you >perceive him. This necessity to have everyone alive love Bonham is curious as hell. I find Jon Christensen to be about the best drummer I've ever heard (and I suspect most will never understand his highly unusual style, but that's hardly of concern as he'll still keep up that genius work whether the 'fans' flock to him or not), but will never be on a mission to spread the Gospel of Christensen. My pleasure in his work is sufficient - if I can turn others onto him, great, if not, also cool. They'll like who they like, more power to 'em. That said, is it also then necessary to never extend criticism or express disfavor? That's equally foolish. Had I the opportunity to hear the everday patter of all the Bonzo-ites, I'd hear criticisms without stop: of friends, enemies, bosses, the president, films, music, etc. So what's the problem with criticism? Must it always be unrelentingly worshipful re: the object of adulation? Give me Tony Williams or Billy Cobham for both muscularity and musical genius any day over 100 Bonzos. Frankly, I'm as astounded that those who like Bonham for the qualities they quote don't see much better in endless supply elsewhere. Hell, listen to Ronald Shannon Jackson. Bonham couldn't keep up with a really good drummer. >John was a fine drummer, with enough soul & funk & great technique to make >2 great drummers just from his talent. Zepplin was a very hit & miss "live" >band, but it was'nt Bonham's fault 95% of the time, even when he got off >into drug/alcohol excess. JB was a bad boy, & I for one would have LOVED to >have heard him sit in on a James Brown set as he would have nailed those >great tunes! Again, I saw him live multiple times and he was just as responsible for the dissolute nonsense as Plant or Page (Jones seemed to be like Entwhistle). It's obvious he has many many fans. Great! It's obvious he was well-regarded by the pro's and punters alike. Great! But I'm not sure I'm going to buy into all this blather that comes from them - after all, it's the same kind of talk I hear coming from every musician on earth every time any tribute album is released ('Oh hell, yeah: (insert any musician's name here) was my Biggest Influence!' Repeat for every musician alive or dead about every other musician alive or dead). Somewhere along the line, people HAVE to get tired of the mercantile idolatry and herd complex. To bring it back to KC (that is, after all, thepoint of this forum): Mike Giles had more talent in any one KC song than Bonham's whole catalog. Ditto Muir, Bruford, etc. Despiite the accolades Bonzo gets from estimable drummers, and they can laud him from here top Sheboygan, he STILL couldn't keep up. To be honest, and I'll probably just re-open the can of worms, I'd rate him around Carmine Appice. A little salt for the wound. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 31 Dec 2001 02:24:22 From: progdawg at hotmail dot com (Mark Tucker) Subject: Answering the Effete To answer RRaupers: >Another century of witness would not serve to convert the young or closed >minded. >They will respectively learn or continue to refuse to learn. By this, then, you say education will not succeed. Foolishness. >Success is found at the individual level. Equally foolish. Individuals invent things they cannot produce sufficiently (automobiles, aurplanes, skyscrapers, etc.) and thus depend upon the herd for their successes. And what founded the wherewithal for the individual's acquiral of anything (including knowledge)? The record of history, the works of all en masse. Though the individual is necessary, he does not exist outside the group. Proclaiming otherwise is Thoureauvian: expounding about being an outdoorsman while living just a mile away from mother. Big deal. >One justifies their income through political posture... Not 'posture' but predation. >The fundamental rule that has always and will always stand is the golden >rule: "He/She that has the gold makes the rules". The very existance of this country is witness otherwise: all the gold of europe, vastly vastly outweighing ours could not succeed in preventing America. Cleverness and persistance beat the gold. Live with it. You do every day you draw breath on these shores (if, that is, you're American; if not, you can content yourself with envy or whatever other emotion fits). >Ethics and morality are not free, quite the contrary they are always an >expensive human indulgence. Geez...you must worship at the altar of Rockefeller. Ethics and morality are always free, as is self-discipline. None of these costs a cent (I can't but help notice your perfervid worship of money everywhere), that's part of what makes them available to anyone, poor and rich alike. You seem to be one of these PC perpetual students so common in academe nowadays. Drop the Foucault and read some Nietzsche. It would help also to speak in something other than pronunciamento. >And in closing this post I must respond that nothing is more obvious that >Cain was not his brother's keeper. He was his brother's murderer.Talk >about posturing! Obviously, you read words but don't understand concepts. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 31 Dec 2001 09:51:16 From: cjclark at earthlink dot net (Craig J. Clark) Subject: My top five for 2001 Forgive me if this list is a bit eclectic, but that's how my tastes run: 1) Laurie Anderson, Life on a String -- Beautiful, beautiful music. I saw her in concert in an intimate setting just a few days after 9/11 and she played an amazing, emotional set. This album is one of her best. 2) David Byrne, Look Into the Eyeball -- Another great one from the erstwhile Talking Head. A dozen songs and he gets the job done in under 40 minutes -- no filler. (Some of Byrne's contemporaries should take note: Just because you can fill a CD with 75 minutes of music, that doesn't mean you're required to.) 3) Depeche Mode, Exciter -- Some of the best music these guys have made since Violator. (I also saw them live, which always helps.) 4) They Might Be Giants, Mink Car -- Another incredibly diverse, intelligent and concise pop record from the two Johns. 5) The City of Soundville: Music from The Powerpuff Girls -- What? Why are you looking at me like that? I have yet to pick it up, but VROOOM VROOOM is high on my post-Christmas shopping list, and I look forward to anything the boys put out in the upcoming year. Plus, it's Belew's 20th anniversary as a solo artist, so maybe we'll finally get proper CD releases of Lone Rhino and Twang Bar King. Craig J. Clark "I believe -- so strongly -- in mayonnaise." cjclark at earthlink dot net --Elmo Oxygen, http://home.earthlink.net/~cjclark denizen of Schizopolis ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 31 Dec 2001 23:21:40 From: progdawg at hotmail dot com (Mark Tucker) Subject: More Bonzo Worship Answering Frank P: >He may not like Bonham's style, but to say he doesen't stand up to Neil >Peart, Trilok Gurtu, Morris Pert, Keith Moon, Bruford, etc. is ignorant. Since you're not really being combative, I will assume you're using the wrong word. 'Ignorance' has nothing to do with affinities here; rather, I'd turn the horse around and say the proponency that Bonham is so holy is ignorance, but I won't. I don't think his aficionados should change their tastes to please me, so I won't use coercive terms for it. >However, music is an art not a sport and music is subjective and therefore >difficult to measure and rate. My point exactly. >But if you rate drummers on creativity, technical ability, diversity and >influence John Bonham is a tower. Well, that's where we differ. I have 20,000 LP's and 1,000's of other recordings (CD's, tapes, etc.), so I'm not exactly a newbie to the panoply of music. My opinion is based on extensive listening. It's not a popular one, obviously, but as well grounded as any who gainsay it. >Every drummer would be the first to tell you. Not so. I know plenty of drummers who admit Bonham was over-rated, though they may not go quite so far as I do. Worship of Bonzo is not, as his partisans fantasize, a universality. >If Mark chooses to re-listen more closely (which I hope he does), may I >make a few recommendations which I hope he will enjoy... I have everything Zeppelin put out plus bootlegs. >Take a listen to ANY live version Dazed and Confused from 71-75, as Bonham >must change time signatures (on the fly!!) about 5- 10 times each >performance. Yes, and usually because Page was all over the map in his own dazed performance (the rest of the time, Bonham was blitzed). >The Bottom line is: Bonham's drum rolls purr and hiss, his snare drum snaps >and cracks, his bass drum can be as quite as a sleeping dragon, as loud as >thunder, as slow as lava or as fast as a humming bird, his cymbals can sound like rain drops or the Fourth of July. You go a bit far. Part of my gripe with Bonham was his staccato style, most often just a simple time-keeping chore (often because he was so out of it >John Bonham IS rock drumming as we know it. And the reason it sounds >bombastic... This is the first time I've seen the word 'bombastic' used with Bonzo; usually, it's reserved for intelligent drummers. Like him as you please, it's a fact that he was quite a lout and died because of it. Read books on Zep and this will be borne out. Not a big deal, a lot of rockers are abusers and abusive. I just prefer not to enter the religious mode re: John Bonham. There's nothing there for it. This doesn't mean he was devoid of value, just that he isn't worth the paeans heaped on him. Little controversy to that. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 1 Jan 2002 17:27:18 From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: Let's continue to pretend.... How oft when thou, my music, music play'st Upon that blessed wood whose motion sounds With thy sweet fingers, when thou gently sway'st The wiry concord that mine ear confounds, Do I envy those jacks that nimble leap To kiss the tender inward of thy hand, Whilst my poor lips, which should that harvest reap, At the wood's boldness by thee blushing stand! To be so tickl'd, they would change their state And situation with those dancing chips, O'er whom thy fingers walk with gentle gait, Making dead wood more bless'd than living lips. Since saucy jacks so happy are in this, Give them thy fingers, me thy lips to kiss. xoxoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #927 ********************************