Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #923 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 923 Tuesday, 25 December 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: Happy Xmas Bowie quotes Fripp Re: Level 5 Re: KC Signatures -- Fripp/Brando -- "soft-rock" Damage Remastered Sid Smith book BILL BRUFORD Re: Sigur Ros Sid Smith Book / Happy Holidays I want it right now ... Re: ET 922/921/920 tax debate and those friggin tax loving Crims. Re: Subject: Socialism / Anarchism / King Crimsonism Best Album of 2001...Easy! Thoughts on 2002... Level 5 prices...my 2 cents...... Electric Counterpoint The 12 Days of Frippmas Faux Kapitalism / Fripp's Alternative Bonzo?!?! GIG REVIEW: New Haven (12/9) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2001 00:00:01 +0000 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: Happy Xmas Here's wishing all ETers a very happy Christmas, and best wishes for the coming year. On behalf of all the ET Team, Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:24:29 -0600 From: Exhibit A Subject: Bowie quotes Fripp In a recent article in RollingStone.com, Bowie talks about leaving Virgin and forming his own ISO label: As for the follow-up to Hours, Bowie has been working with longtime collaborator Tony Visconti on the album in New York City. ISO will also be the home for other acts that Bowie will add to the roster. "I want to keep the whole experience at the human level," Bowie said. "To characterize ISO, I think I would use guitarist Robert Fripp's phrase and describe it as aiming to be 'a small, mobile, intelligent unit.'" Now if he would only get together again with Fripp and collaborate on a record... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:00:26 +0000 From: "Rainbow Sky" Subject: Re: Level 5 >...Level V actually refers to the highest level of anti-bioterror/ >infection gear available. This seems to coincide with the artwork on >the album. Yes, it does! Thank you for that additional facet. What timing for such a reference. And yet we must live in these times... >It could also be this, from www.guitarcraft.com: >>Level Five is where the student becomes apprenticed to Guitar Craft, >>and a commitment is taken to live one's life according to the spirit >>of this particular way of craft. In a few words, it is this: we act >>on principle and move from intention. >So that could be helpful, or it could confuse the issue entirely. Helpful. And demonstrated this tour through the work itself. Well, it certainly isn't like KC to be ambiguous. They can't possibly be alluding to all of them at the same time, can they? Mike M. Rainbow Sky is reincarnating Opposite of People (we're a band) http://www.rainbowskytrading.com http://www.oppositeofpeople.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:56:37 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: KC Signatures -- Fripp/Brando -- "soft-rock" >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:46:16 +0000 >From: "Dave Allen" >Subject: KC Signatures -- Fripp/Brando -- "soft-rock" >Also, I saw the Crimson show at Massy Hall in Toronto on December 5. Hey, you were there as well, eh? :) Where were you seated? I was on the first balcony on the very end where Fripp was sitting [yeah, we got to look at his back all night until the end, but whatever. :)]. I also got the L5 EP #2204. I enjoyed the show, but I agree with other critics that it was waay too loud. I think if it had been 50% of the volume, it would've been 100% more enjoyable. But, I had fun nontheless, and I came away with the t-shirt and EP. :) > (btw, the only "soft-rock" you'll ever find is a piece of shit) Agreed! Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:40:47 +0100 From: "Jim Clark" Subject: Damage Remastered ETers: I think my "Damage" review and submission to ET from early 1998 has stood up as I am still smitten with this album and it's importance to demonstrate that Fripp's guitar skills are beyond reproach. CD liner notes are few but this is a live recording from a London venue in 1993. The production credits name Sylvian as the sole guy who produced, engineered and mixed all songs at Samadhi Sound in New Hampshire in May 2001. The original CD had Fripp and David Bottrill as producers and John Singleton as assistant and digital editor. The song order has slightly changed from the original CD and Sylvian's Jean the Birdman has been entered and becomes tune number four. It was not found on the original song list. Again, a Virgin release, the product code is 7243 8 11030 29. My copy was purchased at CDNOW for $28.49. Oddly, my copy did not come with a cello wrapper and had a "Made In: Holland" sticker on the back of the jewel case. As far as the remastering is concerned there are no liner notes to indicate what equipment or technology was used; I don't think Sony's DSD, JVC's XRCD or K20 type processing was used but the improvement over the original gold CD is immediately noticeable. Way more sounds. Much more nuance. The difference is dramatic and very apparent. Greater soundstage and blacker backgrounds as well. This was a very good live recording originally but it is much improved overall. Again, some blistering Robert Fripp gitbox work and David Sylvian's vocals are improved; more articulate too. Having read some other archive posts on Sylvian's vocal limitations or his attempts to act like Bryan Ferry's lounge act, Sylvian's voice is just fine and suits the overall mood. Mastelotto, he remains a drum pounder - a marked difference in styles as opposed to Bruford's rather extraordinary skills. Trey Gunn is more apparent too. This remains one of my desert island discs that I wholeheartedly urge that Fripp fans pick this one up. Jim Clark, The Netherlands Below is my original review/ET post of the Damage album in 1998 >Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:34:57 EST >From: Goslice >Subject: ETers notes on Damage and B.L.S. Commentary on Damage During life in ol'Blighty, I came across and purchased a Sylvian/Fripp album called Damage. Sensitive that this particular ET thread maybe a bit hackneyed, this album continues to be a delight for me, as I have owned it since 1995 and it is my favorite of all Robert Fripp's more recent non-KC efforts. The recordings were taken from concerts held throughout 1993 and renders glimpses of half the double trio concept that we all currently enjoy. The personnel include RF, David Sylvian, Trey Gunn, Michael Brook and Pat Mastelotto. More than just a few quid, this album comes on gold disc, has an elegant libretto and packaged in a sturdy little box. Apparently, it is unavailable in the States, which is unfortunate. I would urge that all RF fans locate this gem and give it a listen. I've heard that some of the song titles have made there way onto other US distributed Sylvian/Fripp recordings but these live recordings manufactured and distributed by Virgin (P/N; 7243-8-39905-2-8) are spectacular. RF's guitar runs the gamut from aggressive, fret wrenching injections to team player with sonorous nuance. David Sylvian plays guitar as well but it is his singing style that is memorable for me. Definitely a baritone, he sings with a easy unctuous grace (sometimes a low tonal warble as well) that he uses to his own and the band's advantage. I would strongly urge that like minded Fripp fans, give this one a go. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:19:17 -0500 From: "Robert Bennett" Subject: Sid Smith book Hello - regarding the King Crimson Bio by Sid Smith - you can purchase it directly from the publisher too. Go to www.inthecourtofkingcrimson.com. The book is published by Helter Skelter. I received a numbered hardcopy from them, which was signed by Michael Giles, Peter Giles, John Wetton, David Cross, Tony Levin, Bill Bruford, Jamie Meir, and Ian Wallace, as well as the author. It's pretty cool. The book only cost me $25.00 us. Also, it is an excellent and fun fun fun read. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:27:50 -0000 From: "amos_brailey" Subject: BILL BRUFORD I've just been told that Bill is to play the Jazz Cafe 12th May 2002, but no sign of this date on his site. I think the last time Bill played there may well have been when he was in P1?. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:56:18 -0500 From: "John Borell" Subject: Re: Sigur Ros Boy, I could expound on the virtues of Sigur Ros all day. Let me start with this--if you're a fan of prog, buy the CD. Best 15 bucks you'll have spent this year. It's called "Agaetis Byrjun". The closest comparison I can think of would be Godspeed You Black Emperor, or maybe Massive Attack (sans beats). But SR is much more. Their music is dreamy, ethereal, and deeply touching. As Jordan said, the vocals are simply another insturment. They sing in a language they dubbed "Hopelandic", which mixes english and icelandic to form meaningless, yet hauntinly beautiful lyrics. While the group is only a 4 piece, they have a richer sound than your average philaharmonic. Actually, in a few songs, they do make use of an orchestra. The singer's voice is, like the music, haunting/ethereal/etc. He sings in a rather high pitch (remeniscent of Jon Anderson, perhaps), giving everything an angelic quality (corny, but fitting). Anyway, I'll end it there. Please, do yourself a HUGE favor, and buy the album. Jordan Clifford says -- >>has anyone ever heard Sigor Ros? they are a band that hails from >Iceland, >like Bjork my icelandic princess (i LOVE bjork, by the way). they >arent at >all like KC, but their music basically is soundscapes. They are very >interesting. its not soundscapes exactly like Fripp, and while they >have a >lot of instrumental music they also ahve lyrics. but the thing about >them is >for all the people who call Lyrics just a device for the vocal >instrument, >and lyrics if you dont care abuot them are meaningless, Sigur Ros >raelly >takes that to a new level. Their lyrics are written in a language they >made >up which looks like icelandic, but how the hell would i know. they >dont mean >anything, as the language doesnt mean anything. They are jsut there to >showcase the vocals. the singer/one of the guitar players plays his >guitar >for the most part with a violin bow, creating a very entrancing wave of >sound. some of their songs are very beautiful. Call them post -rock if >you >want, whatever it is, i really dig it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:03:04 -0600 From: "Tom Hicks" Subject: Sid Smith Book / Happy Holidays Thanks to the person that posted the link to order Sid Smiths new book. I ordered the book on Sunday and it was sent via Royal Air to arrive on Friday. I have just started the book, but it seems very detailed and current. This book is very timely, as I always find myself deeply in a Crimson mood at this time of the year. I attribute this to the wealth of new items (double live CD, Level 5, book, etc) it seems this happens every year. Happy holidays to everyone at ET, have a safe and Happy Christmas. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:53:03 -0500 From: "Caruso, Josette" Subject: I want it right now ... I'm so frustrated..... I've tried patiently and diligently. I was so excited at the prospect, that at first I thought perhaps it was something that I was doing wrong, but I've done it SOOOO many times before and I was always satisfied when I finished. But not this time! The thought of being able to hear his voice when ever I want to, made me want it even more. I kept thinking about what I could do with it... I tried again......couldn't do it! Disappointed and frustrated, I gave up trying and went to sleep. It was the first thing on my mind when I woke up this morning, so I tried again, slowly and carefully this time, but with no result! Trey, help me..... please baby I'm trying to subscribe to your tour journal, and the link won't work! xoxoxoxo Josette ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) From: Kathy Ottersten Subject: Re: ET 922/921/920 tax debate and those friggin tax loving Crims. Hi Crimpersons I believe that Jason misread what I wrote - even though he accurately quoted me. Reading his reaction, it appears that he objected to my post because he thought it meant that I was advocating a tax of 45% of income. What I wrote (in ET 921) was that "the average household actually pays only 45% of their numerical tax burden." The numerical tax burden is a number that corresponds to the nominal tax rate for all taxes on a given amount of income, before (as I pointed out) all deductions that are available. To spell it out further, the median US income per household in 2000 was $42000; the median numerical tax burden was approx. $7600; actual taxes paid were about $3400. This means that the actual taxes before deductions were around 18% of real income, while taxes paid were less than 9%. Of course, I recognize that Jason is capable of reading text very closely, having recognized Trey Gunn's grammar problem (in ET 918), so maybe he does think that 9% is too much. I, however, do not (I would also like to note that the figures I used correspond to the those quoted by The Heritage Foundation, an ultra-conservative organization, at www.taxation.org). To address a few of Jason's fine points: 1) He wrote that "you rich liberals slay me." I am, in fact, a leftist of moderate means; I do, however, aspire to limousine liberal status, when and if I win lotto. But being teacher in Brooklyn's public school system is not going to get me there anytime soon. 2) I find the thinly veiled, "Love-it or Leave-it" insult to be just that - insulting, and not deserving of a detailed response. 3) Finally, I have to commend Jason for finding a way to steer this thread back on topic, since he placed Adrian, Trey and Pat on his list of "Frickin tax lovers" that "have done enough damage." Well done! Can t-shirts reading, "King Crimson out of North America" be far behind? European fans would surely appreciate such a movement. Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:10:05 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Subject: Socialism / Anarchism / King Crimsonism Hey! I never knew I exhibited "resigned defeasance!" Cool! John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:33:28 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: Best Album of 2001...Easy! Ah, the best album of 2001... Well, I haven't heard "Level Five" yet, so I can't really speak for it, but otherwise I'd have to say Elton John's "Songs From The West Coast"...AMAZING CD! ---Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:44:35 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: Thoughts on 2002... Well, the year is thankfully drawing to a close. Everyone is getting ready to say goodbye to 2001...and I for one am anxiously awaiting what 2002 will bring us in the music world. What will become of the new KC material in the new year? I for one am hoping for a new full-length album, and, of course, more live stuff! I can't wait to see what Fripp will conjure up next...There, alone in the shadows, I bet he has a lot of time to think...I hope he's thinking about the next Crim release, because God knows I am. Comments on the new material or a new LP from the Crim? What about other music...let's not limit ourselves to one group, now! Blind Guardian's new album will be out next year (the single is out now). Elton John claims he's done with putting out albums...If this is true, "Songs From The West Coast" was a heck of a last album! The Rolling Stones said they would do another, long-awaited (by me, anyway) stadium tour and hopefully put out another album. Zakk Wylde's Black Label Society will also be putting out an album in 2002. Will King Crimson be touring in the new year? Has Fripp mentioned anything of an even bigger, more extensive tour than Level Five, or was that it? How about a new set list? 2001 was a relatively boring and somewhat sad year for music...It wasn't exactly a great year for me, because of the deaths of George Harrison and other musical celebrities, the waging of war on the U.S., the line-up changes in a band or two...it's all just so strange to me. I hope 2002 can compensate for 2001's lack of excitement. Cheers, Happy Holidays, ---Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:58:11 -0500 From: scott kevyn frank Subject: Level 5 prices...my 2 cents...... Having recently observed the rising of the Crim 3 times in the past six months ( Orlando, West Palm, Buffalo), I have this to add about the Level 5 price debate. (and the other goodies as well). In 1995, I paid $35.00 for a 3rd row ticket for the Crim show at the Tupperware Center, Orlando. (no, it's not made of Tupperware, just the world headquarters. ) In 2001, I paid $35.00 for a general admission ticket, House of Blues, Oralndo. $35.00 for a 7th row seat in W. Palm, and imagine this, $35.00 for a 2nd row seat in Buffalo a few weeks ago. 6 years and prices are the same. I will not even begin any comparisons to a U2 ticket or a Yes ticket from then to now. Anyways, with that in mind, I usually will spend the amount I spent on my ticket (and my wifes ticket, who is no longer a Krim-virgin, but still is confused) at the goodie stand. I know that I am going to recieve quality CD's, shirts, posters, etc. from our DGM extended family, right down to the free postcards they always have !!!!!!! I for one, came home with 2 Level 5 CD's ( #2,265 and 2,266), a shirt and a few postcards, and still had a few bucks left over. Not that I am bragging or trying to be an a-hole, I just think that the prices at the shows have always been, and I am sure, always will be reasonable.......I hope everybody has a very Merry Christmas and a great 2002.....PEACE.......Scott. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:59:46 -0500 From: Vincent E Daniel Subject: Electric Counterpoint Greetings Crimnologists; In ET 922 Greg Danielak compared Steve Reich's Electric Counterpoint to Fripp's interlocking guitar playing. I have noticed the same thing when I first heard it too. The following info is from the cd liner notes. It was commissioned in 1987 by the Brooklyn Academy of Music's Next Wave Festival . The guitarist is Pat Metheny and consists of ten guitars and two basses with an eleventh guitar played live over the tape. It also features the occasional odd meter shift between 3/2 and 12/8 so it bears some of the other Crimson characteristics that we have come to know and love. Check it out if you get a chance. Vince Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:47:51 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: The 12 Days of Frippmas On the 1st day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 2nd day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 3rd day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 4th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 5th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 6th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 7th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 8th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 9th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 10th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 11th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 On the 12th day of Frippmas, Robert gave to me...a crosspicked obscure form of Gm played in 5/8 John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:12:58 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Faux Kapitalism / Fripp's Alternative re: Jason Inturmoils post: >Man, you rich liberals really slay me. Trust me, if there were a more >capitalist place to live than America, I'd live there. Since there isn't >and there ARE more socialist / communist countries in the world than America, PLEASE go there. If the system is better there, GO, don't change ours. You frickin tax lovers have done enough damage (including Trey, Pat, and Adrian). Jason, your post was so all-over-the-map, I couldnt quite nail down what you were talking about, so I excerpted what was coherent and am responding. Like Eric Groovy, youre operating from a lack of definitions. America doesnt practice capitalism and probably never has (in its colonial days, the colonists tried to but the federal government stepped on that as often as possinble, as in the Whiskey Rebellion). Ill make it very easy: any society which has a government that will bail out Big Business as it mismanages itself into the ground, as ours has done non-stop for the past 50 years at least, is not practicing capitalism, its practicing the most corrupted form of whats wrongly called socialism imaginable. In fact, as I say, its not even close to socialism, its whats properly called a nanny state and is elitist-protective, a form of technological divine-rights feudalism. Ther is absolutely NO way in which any proper capitalist could EVER justify the bail-out of Chrysler, the S&Ls, and the recent post-9-11 hand-outs, amongst the million and one other socialisms practiced in recent history. Hell, even Libertarians know better than THAT - and theyre just more educated conservatives who know how to hide their greed in dazzling philosophy! Whats amusing is that what people like you rant about as being capitalistic is actually the worst form of socialism (per your misconception of it) in modern times. Refer to my comments to Groovy re: Adam Smith and Hamilton. Part of the whole problem is that NO form of ANY government has EVER been, by any definition, what its claimed to be, whther capitalist, socialist, communist ( a REALLY lauaghable one!), or whatever. Theyve mainly been either predatory modifications of feudalism or feudlisms-in-abeyance (the so-called socialisms, we may note, have a very elitist central agency - thats NOT socialism), that is to say: fascisms, as corporations are. America and pockets of it, for periods, practiced what was preferred to be called social democracy, whch worked out fairly well, but, as it came from the people rather than the monied and privileged, that sort of stuff was also rather quickly extirpated (the example of mill workers in Lowell, Massachusetts, at the turn of the century I believe, is a good one). And your snit re: Fripp & Co. was thoroughly unjustified. Robert tried his level best to shift away from predatory capitalism with Discipline Global. If you took note, DG was charging FAR less than standard prices, had great specials and discounts, and was a warm enterprise while it lasted. They reflected what I see as Roberts fairly revolutionary and socialized viewpoint, which, if you read Malatesta, Godwin, Bakunin, and etc., youll see is somewhat anarchistic (if you actually READ the texts of anarchism, rather than infer it from frothing media shills, youll find its the most cogent socio-political thought on the planet, while still being as problematic as any other philosophy). If I read things right, the problem with DG was not with its operations but with rats in the woodwork (as it was with EG). What the answer might be, Im not fully sure. Buckminster Fuller had some great ideas, as did Paolo Soleri. Hell, even Peter Drucker, THE guru of capitalists, lambastes capitalism as a horrible mis-concept and exceedingly cruel (this, from a guy who the top men of industry world-wide listen attentively to), but I suspect we need to look more closely at the guy capitalists love to pervert: Charles Darwin. In his work (again: if anyone ever bothers to actually read it rather than have it perverted for them by vested interests), he cites COOPERATION as the best survivial tactic. Survival of the fittest was just ONE of several survival modes he noted - capitalists took it, and its component competition mode, and twisted that to be Darwins seminal statement. It wasnt and it isnt. Darwin actually cited a form of true socialism, harmony, as the proven ideal. He kindve answered the question the God-thing wouldnt answer for that idiot Cain, when Cain asked Am I my brothers keeper?. The answer is yes. All that ever comes of the predatory capitalist philosophy of Concentrate on wealth, forgetting all but self is heartache. Load up on the Alka Seltzer. To Toby & Co.: Happy Holidays!!!! p. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:32:21 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Bonzo?!?! re: Lawrence Moseleys post >BTW the chap who said something about John Bonham being the worst drummer >of all time or some such ...(I enjoyed the rest of your post until that bit >where it went downhill very rapidly)....I can only go from a non-drumming >perspective but how does one conclude that JB earns that lowest of all >status when his drumming is: >a) the most sampled in trendy music history, >b) James Brown's (3) drummers wondered how Bonzo managed his incredible >grooves, >c) The readership of Drummer magazine voted him No 2 of the Century behind >Buddy Rich, >d) Maybe Jimi Hendrix was wrong as well about Bonzo, >f) Keith Moon is on record as saying JB is the best drummer living in the >world today, g) Bonzo never claimed to be a technician. Superb argumentation. I received, as expected, a buncha bonehead posts in response to my statement (especially from one jock idiot) but yours is the only one to address the subject with solid reasoning. Because of it, Ill revisit my Zep collection, re-listen, and reconsider. However, no matter whether my opinion changes or not, Bonham just doesnt stand up to cats like Jon Christenson, Neil Peart, Trilok Gurtu, Morris Pert, Keith Moon, Bruford, etc. Granted, I overstated that in my earlier post (purposely, to see what Id elicit) but it still wasnt far from my perception. Bonham was one of those guys who engendered awe or rejection. I not only listened to the records (and own them all - Led Zep 1 is my cite for All-Time Best Rock Record), I saw them 5 times live. I have to say that my prime perception of Bonham was lout (and the way he conducted his life didnt exactly gainsay that), but then, Zep, in its latter days, wasnt all that hot live anyway - as even they admit, what with all that drug use & etc. VERY hit and miss. I have a number of very good bootleg concerts from the earlier years (esp. consider the Rose Palace concert) and they bear out my experience. Still, Ill listen again with a more attentive ear and see what happens. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:32:12 -0500 From: "Ken Montgomery" Subject: GIG REVIEW: New Haven (12/9) Here is a SHORT review of Krimson's recent New Haven, CT gig (unlike most of the other long-winded posters): JPJ- very enjoyable, JPJ plays the hell out of lots of different stringed instruments, Stick player is good but overplays and acts like an idiot, drummer is OK but not particularly unique. JPJ demonstrates a great personality and connects with and jokes with the audience. Sound quality: C KC- Stage lighting dim overall. RF in near darkness, illuminated primarily by the lights from his gear. He faces the rest of the band the entire time. He didn't do this on the last tour, so why now?? Set is rather short and the new songs are too similar to those on TCOL. The alternating note "hand offs" between RF and AB are getting old (besides, the CGT does this better). Adrian's guitar sounds great and is loud in the mix (as are the drums). His voice, however, is muffled and distorted and sounds horrible. RF is very hard to hear. Overall, the sound is too loud and don't give me sh*t that "this is a rock concert." This was unnecessarily getting into AC/DC terrain. Sound quality: C- Please, please stop doing "Red" live. Who need to hear this on every tour?? Unlike most of these, "stuck in the past" ET members, I don't want to hear songs from 25+ years ago. What's next? Audients shouting "Freebird!!"? Let's move on and evolve. No improvs???????!!!!! Those were the best things they have done since the double trio, IMO. Why none on this tour? Overall, it seemed like they didn't really care on this tour vs. TCOL. People keep stating that Pat "isn't BB." That's not the problem, the problem is what he IS- a heavy-handed drummer who doesn't have a sense of "groove." This is what is missing from the new KC. Everything is very heavy and plodding and mechanical feeling. He is capable and competent though- maybe he hasn't found his "voice" yet in this incarnation of KC. Bye for now, Monty "Insert stupid quote here if posting on ET." ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #923 ********************************