Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #921 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 921 Wednesday, 19 December 2001 Today's Topics: Australian Tour Justin's encounter with Trey; the double trio Level 5; Caveman Shoestore; acrobat or musician? KC Signatures -- Fripp/Brando -- "soft-rock" Prices are relative How to Elephant Talk Re: Mr. Groovy's "$15 CDs are expensive?? What a JOKE!" in ET 920 What is wrong with you people? Re: Fripp Acknowledges Crowd! Read All About It! costings... Sid Smith KC book / ELP bio / Drivers Eyes CD ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:02:04 +1100 From: "Carl Justin" Subject: Australian Tour G'Day, I've been a King Crimson fan since 1968. I would love to know if and when KC will come Down Under to the Land of Oz . Does anyone know? Please respond to c_justin56 at hotmail dot com See you later. >From Carl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:40:26 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Justin's encounter with Trey; the double trio >So what should I do? Well, I went over, said hi, and "have a great show." That was about right: minimal intrusion, not asking much, ok. But then I also asked if he wanted to join me and my friends for dinner. He politely declined. I probably shouldn't have asked. I think we can all learn from your experience. Thanks for posting it Justin. >BTW--the show at the Beacon on 12/13 was absolutely incredible, and shows that this band may enter places previous Crims could not. (Well, after hearing the Level 5 CD this morning, I almost think that maybe the double trio could have gone there, but for some reason it didn't...) After hearing the KCCC release of the Nashville rehearsals from 1997, it's clear the six-piece band couldn't get it together to write a tune. I'd like to see them try the six-piece again, but not at the expense of the current four-piece lineup. - S. np: Curtis Mayfield, Superfly soundtrack scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:05:01 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Level 5; Caveman Shoestore; acrobat or musician? >I don't think that the title Level V has anything to do with LTIA. A good friend and fellow Crimson devotee mentioned that Level V actually refers to the highest level of anti-bioterror/infection gear available. This seems to coincide with the artwork on the album. Of course, it could refer to both, but in keeping with Frip's past, I think the title would be LTIA pt V if that was the true intent. It could also be this, from www.guitarcraft.com: >Level Five is where the student becomes apprenticed to Guitar Craft, and a commitment is taken to live one's life according to the spirit of this particular way of craft. In a few words, it is this: we act on principle and move from intention. Some may become professional musicians, but this is neither necessary nor appropriate for all. So that could be helpful, or it could confuse the issue entirely. >Minus, Caveman Shoe(Hue)store(score) and Cozy. Caveman Shoestore rocks my world. Check out the newest Land CD, with Fred Chalenor on bass. >Is Frip an acrobat or a musician. See also: High Wire Guitar on Op Zop Too Wah by Adrian Belew. - S. np: Various artists, '92 L'annee du blues scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:46:16 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: KC Signatures -- Fripp/Brando -- "soft-rock" Considering the circumstances, I thought it'd be a laugh if the KC member's signatures were used as the cover art for a major release (or used somewhere in the packaging at least). Ha Ha? Also, I saw the Crimson show at Massy Hall in Toronto on December 5. Robert Fripp somehow reminded me of Marlon Brando on the Larry King Show, but I managed to enjoy the concert very much despite this unwarranted distraction. -Dave (btw, the only "soft-rock" you'll ever find is a piece of shit) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:32:17 -0500 From: "Jack Lightfoot" Subject: Prices are relative Greetings: I am not passing judgment, on whether, or not, my fellow posters are correct about cd prices being too high. But...I would like you all to consider this: As an American kid in the 60's I was a record-purchasing- machine. I still am, even though the formats have changed several times since then. In the early 1960's, the average US income was about $8,000 per year. An average house cost about $20,000. An average car cost about $2500. A Caddy was around $3000, but you could get a new VW Beetle for $1800 (my Dad bought one in 1962). Records were $4.98 and went up to $5.98 in the mid-1960's. Now, the average US income is about $35,000 (more than 4 times higher than the early 60's). The average house is $130,000 (more than 6 times higher than the 60's). The average car is over $20,000 (more than 8 times what it was in the 60's). Caddy's can easily run $40,000 (more than 10 times higher than their 60's counterparts) and even the "new" VW Beetle is around $19,000 (more than 10 times higher than its predecessor). In comparison, an average CD is ~ $16 (or about 3 times higher than a 1960's-era LP). I didn't consider LP's comparisons, because they are a small niche in the market now and the cd is the dominant format... like LP's were then. I'm not a giant fan of the "Big" record companies, but it looks to me like music has not kept pace (percentage-wise), as much as other consumer items, within the same time frame. The only things to have dropped in price since then (that I can think of) are Long Distance rates, but that's another story! Just a thought. I hope that this doesn't spawn issue after issue of debate. Regards! --JBL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:29:22 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: How to Elephant Talk With all the collective posts by wounded pov, damn it, I just know I'm right in throwing up these guide lines on how to best make use of Elephant-Talk! No matter how idealised, the savvy E-Ter must possess some sense of humor. Things put up on the internet are things put up on the internet. Read it, have a laugh, and go do something constructive. Or do like me: read it, have a laugh, write something, have another laugh, have a succession of drinks, laughs, etc., irritate everyone, pass out, get up w a hangover, and attempt to do something constructive. If anything of substance appears on ET, have no fear because Fripp will write a song about it and manifest our infatuation. It is important that everyone gets to chime in - even if their bell is a bit warped. The best part about ET is going through the posts and finding the Jewel with the cute little crooked teeth. Straight teeth may seem more attractive, but the little hillbilly girls have got soul, man, and wall to wall shag - 70s style! At this point it is time to bring up skimming. Skimming, aka embezzellment, is how we get the good stuff for ourselves. If it is cash we're after, we put it in our pocket and keep our mouths shut. With ideas, we have to be selective or else we'll all end up being republican. For those of you who were too ashamed to take the Evelyn WoodHead Sped Redding Chorus, you just scan through the material noting the key words and topic sentences that catch your fancy. When the light bulb flickers, go ahead and read the rest of the paragraph. You may be on to something now so hold on to your Millwaukee's Best! If the ideas you're reading somehow seem relevant, then your basic value system has been stimulated and new brain cells are sprouting! If you experience burning or discharge, stop immediately and tune in to a Clear Channel station. In a nutshell, to get the most out of E-T, you've got to get laid at least once a day and ride a snow board. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:48:05 -0800 (PST) From: Kathy Ottersten Subject: Re: Mr. Groovy's "$15 CDs are expensive?? What a JOKE!" in ET 920 Hi Crimpersons, I see that we have descended into insulting political rants, courtesy of one Mr. Groovy, (Eric VanderWerff) in ET 920. Mr. VanderWerff makes the following statement: The REAL problem, little boys and girls, is the fact that we are all SLAVES to our repective governments, and we pay exhorbitant amounts of OUR money to our looter-masters (the government). Imagine having your tax burden cut in half. That would amount to having 20% - 50% more money in your bank account RIGHT NOW. All of a sudden, a $15 CD would be a drop in the bucket. The average household in the U.S. is comprised of 2.4 persons (2000 Census). After the standard deduction, credits for children, mortgages, and other items, the average household actually pays only 45% of their numerical tax burden (U.S. Govt figures). Including federal, state, and local taxes this amounts to approximately $3400 a year in real taxes on average (U.S. Govt figures). So, lets see. If we cut that in half (as Eric suggests), we get $1700. Divide that by 2.4 to get each person, and that is $708 more per year. Since most people get paid weekly, that is a jump of $13.60 per week. Yup. That certainly qualifies as a massive jump for me. I am sure that money goes so much further in Irving, Texas than it does in New York City, doesnt it, Eric? Besides being vulgar, derisive, and factually irrelevant, I also fail to see what Mr. VanderWerffs post had to do with King Crimson. I am not sure if anyone else found it offensive, but if I want to read right-wing rantings, there are many other places on the net to go. It also distresses me that a Doctor, a profession where people are not particularly hurting for cash, would call someone a baby and an asshole for having a discussion about money. But I suppose with all that superior education some condescension is warranted towards the rest of us, isn't it? Maybe I should just thank Mr. VanderWerff for deigning to stop in and set us straight. Kathy Ottersten ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Lakatos Subject: What is wrong with you people? This is going to be one of my tongue-in-cheek/ serious posts. Tongue-in-cheek because I try to have a sense of humour about everything, and serious because I'll still be cutting to the truth. Here, and elsewhere on the Internet, we have a bunch of fans of this band King Crimson. They're a good band. A damn good band. This is art, which is the doorway to the soul and all. You know, one would think this would bring people around the world together. But KC fans are pricks, like everyone else. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. In the case of good artists, it's always the fans that make the artist look bad. I like anime. I used to like anime more, but I spent a lot of time around anime fans, and anime fans give anime a bad name. Similarly, in just the last week, I've learned a deep hatred for King Crimson fans (it's not just the digest; it's Usenet too). Must we have trolls on Elephant Talk? Must each digest be 75% flames? Is this Elephant Talk or Ytsejam? I guess I've got the prozaKc blues. I was hoping to share some new Crimson songs with a family member who isn't yet fully a KC fan (he's rediscovered the band after 30 years). Assholes prevented that. And I think to myself, "Isn't that a good thing after all?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:23:29 -0500 From: "Moses" Subject: Re: Fripp Acknowledges Crowd! Read All About It! A response to Mike Miller's post in ET 920: Yeah, that happened at the Greensburg show. Like I said in a previous post, I was right in front of Fripp. What a commanding presence he is. I was there with three friends who had never seen Crim before, and they enjoyed the show and were clapping, but when he came to the edge of the stage and looked right at us they said they were scared. I felt it too, I can't really describe the strange feeling. Maybe it was just a matter of having read in ET about his introvertedness that I was surprised to see him doing that. He did look a bit uncomfortable when someone came right up to him before the second encore and plopped down a vinyl copy of ITCOTKC, presumably for him to sign. He made an unpleasant face and withdrew a foot or two. In closing, yes I must agree with the previous posters that this was indeed a powerful show and a good, spirited performance. Moses http://cellardwellers.home.attbi.com http://schleigho.home.attbi.com http://db.etree.org/moses ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:55:04 -0500 From: John Sowerby Subject: costings... At 06:46 12/18/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Thats just another example of my point - Why do bands try to rape their >fans? that is WAY too much! thats why i never buy stuff at concerts like >that. I mean ill get the occasional shirt, the occasional cd, sticker and >so on. but it really depends on the price. sometimes it just gets >ridiculous. I take it as an insult. I've gotten used to it by now, but it >still aggrivates me to no end. OK. Here's the problem with some of this. An awful lot of bands do no more than break even on tour, and some make losses, particularly in the 'prog' rock field. The merchandise sales become the ONLY profit some of these bands will make. Fish, for one, existed for a number of years on T-shirt and live CD sales, and used the money to continue his career. It's your choice if you buy something or not, and I realise that not everyone can afford it, but sometimes, the merchandise sales are important for the life (or death) of a band. John S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:00:19 -0800 From: "Brian Kelley" Subject: Sid Smith KC book / ELP bio / Drivers Eyes CD In ET #920, John T Moshier wrote: > Greetings, ETers, Many thanks to John Trevethan for posting the link in > #918 to Amazon UK for Sid's book. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, I > couldn't get the link to work. If any of you have the same problem, I > was able to get the book ordered from Amazon UK by going to Amazon.com, > clicking the "International" link which led to a link to the UK store. > Once there I searched "Books" for King Crimson, and up it popped. It > costs L15.00 plus L4.95 for airmail shipping to the US. When I visited > England in July 2000, the exchange rate was about $1.60 = L1.00. If its > still in that range, getting the book now will cost about $32.00 > US. Perhaps a little pricey for a paperback by US I actually didn't have trouble with that link, but at first, it seemed the order form didn't want to recognize my postal code. But apparently, where it says "County", if you're in the US, you would enter your state abbreviation. So then I did that and my postal code and all went through fine. So yes, I got the "Crimsography" coming to me as well (hopefully before Xmas! :) My own personal Xmas present!!! Plus, I'm a BIG fan of band biographies. In the meantime, does anybody have the ELP: Show That Never Ends bio? I saw that on the Amazon UK site too, but didn't order that. I probably will later anyhow, but wanted a few opinions from anybody whom has read it. Also, who has the Ian McDonald Drivers Eyes CD? I went ahead and ordered that on the Casino UK Records site. Sounds like it must be somewhat good with guests like Giles, Wetton, Sinfield, and others. Any help on either the ELP or Ian would be much appreciated. Thanks. Brian Krimso ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #921 ********************************