Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #918 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 918 Sunday, 16 December 2001 Today's Topics: Detroit 1971 The Good Old Days... Jones Blew out the KIng at the Beacon 12/13/01 query Where can Dangerous Curves be found impossible for me Where to buy Sid's book. Tony Levin (again) Re: Level V =LTIAV Re: EP price Re: ep price Re: EP Price BeeB recordings Re: level V tour critism Differential equations and camaraderie Re: Will the real Trey Gunn please stand up? Breivity & (Hopefully) The Final Word on Artist/Fan Relations GIG REVIEW: Beacon...NYC...Thur.12/13/01 GIG REVIEW: Some Random Thoughts on 12/13, NYC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:45:36 -0500 From: "James J. Hannigan" Subject: Detroit 1971 I would highly recommend the latest club release of Detroit 1971. Probably the best concert I've heard by this band. And one can hear Fripp telling the crowd "old" tunes like Epitaph won't be done by the band - Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:37:00 -0500 From: "Tim" Subject: The Good Old Days... Greetings all! I was cleaning out the ol' time machine and run across this post to ET, thought you'd get a kick out of it... >Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:28:25 EST >From: SchizoidMan >Subject: The New Krimson-observations > >Well, gang, I just got back from the Philadelphia stop of the ProjeKt 2012 >KC tour and...I dunno. The new music seems a bit boring, just a lot of >rehashing of old ideas. I was impressed by LTIA Part 17, however, Fripp >really burned it up. (FraCktuRing was pretty hot too...) I do wish they'd >play more of the old stuff though, what's the deal with that? I would give >anything to hear Oyster Soup and Frying Pan again, I don't understand why >they don't play the classic tunes. Why all this emphasis on the new stuff? >Someone yelled out "People" before the first encore, at which point Fripp >clutched his heart in mock agony screaming, "Why? Why?" Pretty funny. >I don't think Spaz McGinty is the right front person for this band. His >lyrics are pretty trite, and vocally...well, he ain't no Adrian Belew. To >me, Ade was the perfect singer for the band, his voice was so much clearer >and better suited for this kind of music. To me, the new stuff just doesn't >measure up. >I think most of the problem lies with the rhythm section. I didn't believe >that King Crimson could exist without Pat Mastelotto, and now I'm sure I'm >right. No one can nail a groove or had the feel like he did. This new >drummer spends way too much time being clever and stylish-and don't get me >started on the new gravitronic drum kit-no guts whatsoever. >And the show itself? Actually, not too bad, though the sound was a bit >muddled (and too freakin' LOUD!). One big complaint though, I paid my >hard-earned $500 for a balcony seat, and I think I deserved to actually SEE >the band. Fripp's holographic image was projected in the corner, in the >dark, back to half the audience. What is he, shy? scared? I mean, I know the >guy is pushing 70 but c'mon! That's just plain ignorant. >So bottom line: I don't really like the new disc, though I guess it will >grow on me if I listen a few dozen times. I sure wish I was around back in >the heyday of the late '90s-2002 group. Man, to see those guys rip it up >would have been the best. It would be great if RF would just stick with old >stuff and give us what we want, we're the audience after all. TCOL was such >an important, ground-breaking album-that's what the people want to hear. >Save the electronic doodling for the studio... >And congrats to Toby on issue #10,000! It never gets old!! > >Schizo ------------ (Apologies and indebtedness to the poster several issues back of the "recently discovered" Discipline review...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 02:03:30 -0500 From: kooncreek at juno dot com Subject: Jones Blew out the KIng at the Beacon 12/13/01 What was up with that ? J P Jones with his great Led Zepp renditions plus his excellent originals anti climaxed the King at their own game. Jones' own originals were better than the KIngs , and why was Fripp in the darkness all nite. He did not say hello or goodbye. He just hid in the darkness all night. Was he pissed off at all the smoke .Adrian did say he could not breath. Still I think the King could have done a lot better ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:02:23 -0000 From: "Mark Cranmer" Subject: query I'm relatively new to KC and printed off the KC discography thinking it would list the band line up for all their releases. The line up for Islands does not seem to be listed; would someone be so kind as to email it to me. Thanks Mark markcranmer at tiscali dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:07:59 -0500 From: Frank Conte Subject: Where can Dangerous Curves be found Which CD is Dangerous Curves on? And in concert why is it mostly the recorded version that's played or am I wrong on this? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:52:36 From: "Spear man" Subject: impossible for me >impossible for me to understand why anyone would pose as someone else for >their own amusement. well I guess that's a) part of the fun now isn't it? and b) it could be better than posing for someone else's amusement, but the jury is still out on that one. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:57:13 -0500 From: John Trevethan Subject: Where to buy Sid's book. Go to: www.mp3.com/stations/crimson_court Click on the image of the book, this will get you into the UK Amazon.com. I am in the USA and ordered from here with a credit card. The book came within a week, better than waiting for it to be released here. A N T A R C T I C A R E C O R D S www.antarcticamedia.com/releases www.mp3.com/stations/antarctica www.mp3.com/stations/music_for_film www.mp3.com/stations/erie_radio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) From: rone at ennui dot org (earl of surl) Subject: Tony Levin (again) Elephant Talk writes: > From: Adam 2.) Most of you are hypocrites and those who are not, are instead anal retentive, take your pick. I'd like to think i'm both. I am very specific about how i put on my false airs. I say this because in light of the recent T-Lev debacle, people are angry because this guy "doesn't get it" or "should not listen to King Crimson" When did this become a gang-mentality? It was not an even-handed criticism. It was a poorly worded ad hominem. Tony, and the rest of us on this list, deserve better. 3) OOH, Trey wrote in, let's all gather around him. He is a musician, yes a really really good one, but not a leader of the UN. The ripping that Signore Destefano is getting is similar to those doled out on the grade-school playground "told ya so, Trey said so, na na na na na na." (:p) Hey, it was a great flame! "Have you ever considered enthusiastic pursuits in the aesthetics of cosmetic dentistry?" That should become a new classic line. (The definition of irony: receiving flames on this one. That's not irony. Mr. DiStefano insists in his latest missive that his "negative statements were opinions that were neither meanspirited or uninformed." Not mean-spirited? "Mr. Levin... is not an artistic force... (does he love to play, or get paid?)... I for one am happy Levin is somewhere far away from kc." That sounds pretty mean to me. Uninformed? It seems the consensus of many musicians that mistakes that occur during performance are not necessarily a bad thing. Mr. DiStefano asserts the reverse. I imagine he should be happy when KC sells their rights to the Muzak corporation to generate mistake-free, soothing performances. rone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:11:32 EST From: PZ123 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Level V =LTIAV I don't think that the title Level V has anything to do with LTIA. A good friend and fellow Crimson devotee mentioned that Level V actually refers to the highest level of anti-bioterror/infection gear available. This seems to coincide with the artwork on the album. Of course, it could refer to both, but in keeping with Frip's past, I think the title would be LTIA pt V if that was the true intent. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:16:01 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: Re: EP price Jordan Clifford writes: > 2 - $15.00 wasn't expensive for the tour "EP." The EP is over 45 min > long - easily as long as many full releases! >Right on! >Uh... 15 dollars is too expensive for any cd in the first place. EPs, which >arent full length cds, should be much less. While the KC EP happens to be >longer then most full length cds, that isnt the point. the point is 15 is >too expensive in the first place. Jordan - I think gas is way too expensive. As are eggs, milk, cable TV & most everything else. Welcome to the real world! John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:17:06 EST From: PZ123 at aol dot com Subject: Re: ep price Purchasing many indie discs at shows, $15 is typically the going rate. Yes, many discs can be purchased at retail/on line for $14 or so, but then you're going to be charged for shipping, handling, etc. Plus, on a limited run disc, costs are higher for the artist in terms of artwork, handling, storage, etc. For a disc that sounds great, has great music not available elsewhere & the $ goes to the artists & allows them to keep creating this stuff, give these guys a break! Do you give away your work for free? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:26:52 +0100 From: "aron 2.4" Subject: Re: RE: EP Price "Uh... 15 dollars is too expensive for any cd in the first place. EPs, which arent full length cds, should be much less. While the KC EP happens to be longer then most full length cds, that isnt the point. the point is 15 is too expensive in the first place." >From a practical point of view, it all depends on the amount of disks made. If you, and aparently they have chosen this, want to keep it exclusive, you have to charge more because the starting cost stays the same. And somebody had to number them all. I can imagine that takes a long time. That somebody has to be paid for his time (work) too. All this can make the cost of a disk higher than normal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:31:51 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: BeeB recordings Thank (the)God(s) for libraries! I did a search for BBC in the title of our cd collection and found The Who, David Bowie, and Gentle Giant! I know that KC released some of their sessions at BBC radio on their first live box set- but I wonder if any more still lurk in the dusty shelves at the BBC? And what other treasures does the BBC have? Yes, Genesis, Can, perhaps? Cheers, Stephen Portland, Or. Home of Minus, Caveman Shoe(Hue)store(score) and Cozy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:36:21 EST From: PZ123 at aol dot com Subject: Re: level V tour critism Some of the criticism I've been reading re the recent tour is pretty silly. Is Frip an acrobat or a musician. I thought you appreciate a musician for their playing an instrument. So what if Frip faces the band and not the audience. Did you hear his playing? Did you like it? If you see the symphony are all the members facing you? Maybe Frip plays best when he's facing the other musicians. The music I heard coming from him in Chicago in November was fascinating. And he was fully visible, though he was not illuminated. Who cares? Anyone familiar with Steve Kimock? He's an extremely creative guitarist (Zero, the Other Ones, Steve Kimock Band) who typically sits on a stool, not facing the audience and plays with knobs on his amp & does other adjustments during the course of a show. Sometimes he does this while wearing headphones too. Does it diminish his perfomance on guitar--no. Granted, Frip isn't making grimaces at the audience as he hits high notes or doing windmills ala Townsend, but his playing was neither removed, going thru the motions or uninspired. Next, the time of the show, the post re: a half hour of playing time before a break is grossly exagerated. The basic show lasts about an hour, then there is a break, then another half hour or so of additional playing. Not a long show, but certainly respectable. I would have liked it alot longer. But my guess is that if the show was an hour longer people would have wanted another hour. The show I saw was amazing and I was thoroughly not disappointed. As for sound quality, this must be a venue issue. The sound in Chicago was crystal clear and quite impressive. Everything everyone did was clearly audible and the volume was actually lower than I hear at many other shows. I would say the sound was perfect. As for this being it for the band and the band being tired and uninspired, all I can say is that the Chicago show was some of the most inspired, inventive playing I've heard in 30 years of regularly going to shows. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:01:50 -0500 From: David Vella Subject: Differential equations and camaraderie Charles Stack wrote in ET #916 (responding to the 'Tony Levin's talent' poor excuse for a thread): > the process of playing & performing this music is NOT a class in > differential equations or physics, but A CELEBRATION OF PLEASURE AND > CAMARADERIE!! Ummm... are you suggesting that it is impossible for differential equations or physics to be a celebration of pleasure and camaraderie? Hey, I like Tony Levin too but maybe you are enrolled in the wrong classes? Personally, I find few things more rewarding than diving into a weighty unsolved problem in the modular representation theory and cohomology of reductive algebraic groups with the Crimson King cranked up on the stereo beside me. Why do you think it it's called "Math Rock"!? And guess what? Mathematics research is just like improvisational music - it's often precisely the MISTAKES that lead to the most interesting new finds and the greatest harvest. Cheers, David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:07:06 EST From: Inturmoil at aol dot com Subject: Re: Will the real Trey Gunn please stand up? It was the real Trey Gunn who wrote the post. Re-read the post and you'll notice he uses "then" in the place of "than". This is a common grammar problem he has. Read his diaries and you'll see. Its just a hunch, but I think the same person who tought Trey Grammar also taught him about politics-----------Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:01:12 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Breivity & (Hopefully) The Final Word on Artist/Fan Relations After reading the last issue of Elephant Talk (or Elephant Talk #917), I feel I should comment on the two topics that come up in 2 of the gig reviews. It'll probably be pretty long, but it won't ramble so don't worry :) First, Breivity (correct spelling?)- Someone wrote: >I have seen KC about ten times over the last 15-20 years or so. I have >seen RF about the same playing solo, and once w/Sylvian at the Beacon. >I >can't waste my money on this any longer. A ridiculously short >concert. I understand that KC's current tour is too short (or so I hear, I live in the COMPLETELY IGNORED UK so how would I know?(sorry.. my own pet peeve :) ). However, are you suggesting that every time you've seen KC live (plus Fripp same and once with Sylvian) that they've ALL been shorter than your expectations? I cannot believe that. I'm only 16 myself, so unfortunately I've only been able to see King Crimson live under this incarnation (and two of the ProjeKcts, but maybe that doesn't count). HOWEVER, I do have the video of Fripp/Sylvian and that's a pretty long (and pretty incredible) concert. All the live concerts we've gotten through the Collectors Club also seem to suggest that older KC concerts were long as well (2CDs just to give us 1 show from 1971 (often incomplete too) seems long to me). So are you deciding, on your disappointment with one concert, that the last 21 concerts you've been to that involve Fripp have been a waste of time & money? Or have they ACTUALLY all been too short? I would suspect that for you to not want to "waste your money any longer" on this that the music doesn't interest you enough to bother with, which means you should have stopped seeing KC years ago. (NB. I'm not going to say "move on" because I think that it's unnecessarily stand-offish). >KC played about 35 minutes or so, left the stage for five, played 5 >minutes or so, left the stage for 5. Played Elephant Talk, and left for >good. No-one in the band seemed particularly interested (hold Belew, >who >always puts up, what should I say, a good "front") that they were >there. Although I doubt they were off stage for 10 minutes total before encores, it has to be said that that is pretty poor. But then again, as has been said before, this is a double-bill concert tour, not "KING CRIMSON (with some guy called John Paul Jones opening, but fuck him because he'll only play for 30 minutes). This is "KING CRIMSON & JOHN PAUL JONES! FUCK ME, WHAT A PAIRING!" Perhaps it was badly advertised as JPJ being the opening act, because he really clearly isn't, but after so many gig reviews here on ET, everyone should have been expecting that by now. As for their appearence, Fripp has been doing the shadow thing since 1994, so EVERYONE MUST KNOW THAT HAPPENS by now. I can't understand why he does it (since he seemed fine under lights the last 5 times I've seen him in concert) but he does. There. As for the rest of them, maybe they're completely knackered. I would be and I'm sure everyone else would be too. >So, for $65 I got the same effect as sitting in my >living room in the dark, hold many of the CDs are longer than this >concert. $65?? Wow. That does suck. But you wouldn't have heard the development of the new material, which is something that most KC fans hold dear. Also, just because Fripp can't be seen (and if we're honest, he can be, just not very clearly), you've still got Belew, Gunn and Mastelotto to watch. So sitting in the living room in the dark wouldn't work unless you got some pictures of them and stuck them against a wall. Which may be the best thing to do. >If a band wants to be so self absorbed that they race through a >concert >with obvious complacence, and the leader could care less about >even seeing >who is shelling out their good money to see them perform, >I'll pass for a >more intimate band & show. A band like King Crimson, I would imagine, doesn't have to go out and tour. Ever. In fact, they lose money by touring (apparently). They do it because they love it (firstly) and because there are people out there who want it (secondly). It's pretty obvious that Fripp has no interest in playing here in England, but he came over here (probably forced) because the fans wanted them over there, both for King Crimson and ProjeKct Two. So you know from that that at least Belew, Gunn and Mastelotto care about the fans, even if it's only very slightly. >Unfortunately, I have to waste my time and more one last time. I am >also >going tonight, second row/ right side of stage. Lucky me... I'll >see >Fripp's back for one hour!! Sell the ticket if you don't want to go. You could probably get more for it than face value outside the venue. >I'll keep reading ET, keep listening to / buying (?) CDs... Your question-mark looks like a threat. So you're going to rip off a band that has given you 15-20 years of listening pleasure because of a short concert. Interesting. >Fripp & KC are not God or God-like, and they are ripping people off >by giving less (of themselves and their music and their actual bodies) > >than any group I've ever seen live, as they obviously could care less. No they aren't God like. They might even be really horrible people to know.. but they don't seem it (even Trey, who I've had some bad dealings with recently). And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because they're there to play amazing music, which they do, and then leave, which they do. No one is being ripped off by them - maybe the concert hall wants $65 a ticket because they know huge crowds will come, possibly just for the Zeppelin link? Yes the ticket is expensive, but tickets vary in prices. Movies only cost #6.00 ($10?) to watch, and they're longer than most concerts. Operas can go into at least #100/$100 for a ticket and be just as long as a movie. $65 is the price - don't like it, sell on, or better yet, don't buy it in the first place. Maybe to avoid all this mess next time KC do this kind of tour, maybe the details should be spelled out a little better? Like not lying to us and saying JPJ is opening? (I don't know if they even did, but I assume so, considering the amount of people who think that). Jesus that was long. And that was only point 1. 2) ARTIST/FAN RELATIONS >Are they always so standoffish with their fans? I mean, I realize >their primary goal is to share their music, but would it hurt to say >hi >and sign an autograph or two? No it wouldn't. However.... >After the show, Myself and three others were standing out back, a > >respectful 25 or 30 feet from the bus, just looking to say hello, >great >show, nice to meet you. The guys were out and on the bus in a >flash, as >though under threat of assassination, and the Palace crew >were very rude >in basically telling us to beat it. Well if you didn't go over to them, how did you expect to be able to say "hello, great show" etc. I find it particularly difficult to approach people I've seen (especially KC folk) after or before concerts, but if you want to do it, you have to approach. >Adrian even walked by (briskly, with his collar up) right after the >show, >but out of respect, I didn't stop him, thinking he'd be around >later. Confusing line - so because he had his collar up, that was his little sign to say "i'm invisible - don't stop me"? And also, if you didn't stop him "out of respect", why would you care if he'd be around later? >Are these guys all agoraphobic, painfully shy, or do they think we >fans >aren't worth their time? The bus was there for a good forty >minutes, so >it's not like there was a hurry. Any answer to my >questions would help, >though! I assume maybe they're just bored of having fan after fan come up and say the same thing. Maybe they all think they're better than us. Maybe they're all agoraphobic, as you say. However, what I think it is is a human flaw that all people have - embarrassment. I'm in a band, and every time we play anywhere, people will tend to turn up afterwards and go "hey, you guys were great!" or words to that effect. But NO ONE knows what to say to that. What do you say? "Thanks.".. that doesn't feel good enough. This person has taken the time out to come and find you just to say how good you are and you say "thanks". And you can't say "yeah, we know" because then you're a bastard but you don't want to start talking about it in case they think you're egocentric. I hope it's that, rather than them being too good for us. Who knows. We probably never will. Maybe if Trey's reading he can explain, but it's probably something none of them can (they'd do as bad a job as I've done of it, I'd imagine). FINAL THING: >[ Here's one possible answer: You buy a gig ticket. You see the gig. >You >go home. -- Toby] Toby... little harsh. Sounds like you've been paid by Fripp to say that. :) To all the people who complain about longwinded posts, I'm sorry. Just had lots to say, it seems :). Cameron Devlin http://www.alteredstate.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:00:03 EST From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: Beacon...NYC...Thur.12/13/01 Please do not flame me for this but I gotta say the 1st night in NYC,2nd to last show of the Level 5 tour,was banal and devoid of any real spark...First kudos to JPJ...Short smart set full of some real fire and the right amount of old favs (he-he) to please...A lot more lively than some of the his other old bandmates have done to date...As an older folk who has witnessed every KC tour from the Fillmore East up to date and many many offshoots this show was the least inspiring one to date. The new things did little to me body and soul. The older material sounded dated and Ade's voice sounded strained.My least fav was Electrik (Yes Ade-spelled with a "k"...This to is waring thin don't ya think...wink/wink-nod/nod...) And Mr.Fripp seemed off somewhere else...Sure he can be cold onstage but this time icey...I still enjoyed watching the interplay of these 4 very talented and uniqe musicians and I feel their potential as a unit is there but still untaped...Shit the Level 5 CD is better than what I saw Thur. nite...A dead end? I hope not but maybe it's time to think this through a little and come up with a better musical plan...Give it a rest for now,go off on their own (not in ProjeKcts[theres that stupid "k" again] I mean their own thangs...) and then regroup and see what the future bears(hey now it's bears as in papabear...lol)...Just my opinion and opinions are like assholes...Oh you know ther rest (For those who don't-Everyone has one...Get it...) Happy_______(fill in the blank) to all... Peace(A theme) and cat food to ya all... Paul Ps- No RED...that sucked...Ade said for all those returning Fri. nite he had to change the set list...You Fri. niters probably got it...Oh well.................. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:26:35 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Some Random Thoughts on 12/13, NYC First off, context: 4th row center on the aisle; no drugs; hearing protection. I missed about 60% of JPJ's set, having returned from a business trip at 6PM, and wanting to get home, change, and eat dinner before the show. What I heard/saw, though, was impressive; lots of musical talent packed into a single trio of players, different sounds, JPJ playing all manner of stringed instrument (but not, from what I saw, bass.) OK then. Crimson. First off, I thought the sound in the hall was great. This, considering (a) recent complaints about Crim's sound, and (b) notoriously challenging acoustics at the Beacon. When I say great, I mean, it was not muddy or muddled; rather, each sound the band made could be discerned with an almost glass-like clarity. (The music sounded like it was made of glass; does that make sense to anyone?) Anyway, it was a good thing. I was at all times able to discern the 8 or 9 things going on at once. Most of the set was newer material. Belew said something about, since so many of the crowd would be back the following night, they'd have to do a different set list. So some of the older warhorses (e.g., Vrooom, Red) weren't played. (At least I don't think so; after a while all these instrumentals tend to run together in my head, and I felt that if I had taken notes, I would have been stealing a piece of the artist's soul.) Not that this was a bad thing. I thought the new material was great; and if I recall correctly, every new piece was an instrumental. Frankly, the new songs are sufficiently of a piece with the other material the band played that I did not find my unfamiliarity with them to be any sort of barrier to enjoyment of them. I also found-- to my surprise-- that I preferred the instrumentals over the vocal songs (Thela, Elephant Talk, Dinosaur). Not a knock on Belew, who I generally enjoy, and somewhat surprising since I usually like these songs. But somehow, for some reason, I found the instrumentals on the whole more powerful. In fact, I believe I could sit through a Crim concert with no singing at all and find the experience to be a rewarding one. Now I want to try and articulate something that I began thinking about during the show; I'd be curious to see if anyone thinks this notion has any merit at all. For me, this quartet has from the get-go sounded "darker" than either the double trio or the '81-'84 line-up (sidebar: in the abstract, if you see the double trio as the mother ship, than both this and the 80's line-up might be seen as "projeKcts.") This is the case even on songs first performed by the 80's line-up (Thela, Indiscipline, etc.) I think I may have developed a theory on why. Obviously, the difference between this band and the double trio is the absence of Levin and Bruford (you can note changes in compositional style, philosophy, etc., but when you get right down to it, let's not pick nits, the biggest change is two guys are missing.) I noticed that the sound palate this quartet uses tends toward the top end, the "trebly." Trey Gunn, who I tend to think of as the bass player, in fact often sounds like a lead guitar player (or, to be more accurate, two lead guitar players.) So on many songs there is no "bass" to speak of at all. With respect to the drumming, Pat's electronic drums also, I think, tend to make sounds in higher registers than traditional drums such as deployed by Bruford. The result is that it is not uncommon for this band to have no "bottom" at all. Now, typically, I think of the higher treble sounds as being the more colorful sound palette, and tend to associate that color with brightness, not darkness (example: Yes.). But what I think happens is, as an audient, you take in proportionally more of this Crim's music through your ears, your head, as opposed to your body (in the way sometimes you hardly "hear" the bass player in a band, but you definitely "feel" him/her; the bass is what is shaking your chest.) As a result, I think that you "hear" this music more than you "feel" it. That is not a comment on the feeling or passion the players bring to the table; rather it is a comment on the way your sensory organs get the music to your brain. A larger percentage of the music that you perceive is taken aurally. So oddly, by focusing on that glassy, higher end of the sound spectrum, and by putting out a music that you "hear" more than "feel", Crimson is making music you end up perceiving as darker, because you take in less of it through your body. When you take the music in through your body, that tends cTo leaven the warmth and light (and yes, I am aware there is a pun in there). I think this is why I enjoyed the instrumentals more; the voice was almost getting in the way of the overall effect. And frankly, the new material plays directly into this construct. As long as this is the line-up, and the musical approach, that the band is presenting, then I think the very newest material is the most impactful, and I find myself having no need or desire to hear them break out some 25+ year-old chestnut. Most likely it wouldn't work within the current construct of the band. (Although there are actually three songs I would love to hear this line-up tackle, all from the 80's: Sheltering Sky, Requiem, and Industry.) Crimson's set was a little shorter than the last time I saw them (Town Hall earlier in the year), but more impactful, perhaps as a result of the slight abbreviation. I mean, it didn't drag, not for a second. It was like, bam-bam-bam, encore, whoa. There was, however, one thing that I feel compelled to point out. At set's end, and again after encores, Trey, Ade and Pat stood in front of the stage to acknowledge the applause. Fripp, however, took a back route offstage by himself, essentially slipping away unnoticed. Now, I suppose I can understand his sitting in the dark all show; I mean, it isn't like we are being deprived of his dynamic leaps and spandex-stretching splits. But I tried to imagine going to a Broadway show, and having one of the four leads skipping the curtain call. I don't think there is any question that in such a case, the behavior would be uniformly perceived as rude. Now please, spare me your Simpsons-Comic-Book-Guy rantings about how Fripp doesn't owe me anything and I should be grateful, blablabla. It isn't as if I care one iota that his behavior was rude; it doesn't burst my bubble, rock my fragile world, or anything of the sort. But in my reportage of the concert, it would be disingenuous of me not to observe that, yes, I thought this was rude. [ The topic of Fripp's "rudeness" has been hammered to death on ET over the years. Let's not get started on it again, please, people. Noone has anything to add except tedious speculation, and we have enough of that anyway on ET, don't we :-) Anyway it's boring. For those readers to whom this topic is a new one, please check the ET archives. In case you think I am CENSORING things here, I'm certainly not, just expressing your Moderator's preference. Post away if you wish. -- Toby ] A small point on an otherwise powerful night. And I bet Friday's show (which I missed) was even better. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #918 ********************************