Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #916 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 916 Friday, 14 December 2001 Today's Topics: Will the real Trey Gunn please stand up? soundscapes recommendation? Toby's scrutinizing? Re: How can true Crimsos debate Tony's talent?! 8-0 Tony Levin quote KC and Phish Everyone...take a chill pill! Where Oh where can Sid's book be had? Re: The (not so) Final Word out of Time - out of mind Re: Thanks and Happy Holidays!! Re: Mistakes? and Live Performance, Plus a nod to Trey (whew...) Radical Dance Riding the Hostility Bandwagon through Volume Valley NYC Concert 12/13 - Just a comment RE :Introduction/Sinfield etc. Re: Introduction/Sinfield etc. 2 Re: the Levin / Gunn thing Tony Levin The benefits of being a Groupie at a KC show! TIME ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:47:31 -0600 From: Metivier Sarah Subject: Will the real Trey Gunn please stand up? Dear ETers, Okay, I am the last person who wants to burst anyone's bubble, but I am having serious doubts that the person who purported him- or herself to be Trey Gunn is who we think he or she is. A couple of weeks ago, I posted a message to the DGM Guestbook wherein I described a dream I had (in short, Trey came to my house for dinner and berated me, my cooking and my conversational skills). I received a personal reply from TGWebinfo at cs dot com, the writer of which asked me to "forgive him" and "let him make it up to me--perhaps on Thanksgiving next year." It was signed "t". I wrote back to "t" telling him thanks, but I doubted that he was really Trey. He (or she--I have no way of knowing) wrote back and offered to play a guessing game with me about his/her true identity. Now, call me a skeptic, but these don't seem like things Trey would waste his time doing. I only "know" Trey from reading his diaries on the DGM site. I've been reading them for a long time, and I think I have a pretty good idea of what Trey's "voice" is from reading his writings. These messages I received didn't sound like Trey. After all he's said about wanting to spend Thanksgiving with his family, I can't believe he'd offer to spend it with some random fan. And I can't imagine him wanting to amuse himself by playing little guessing games with total strangers, either. It just seems awfully weird to me, that's all. And I know no harm has been done to me or to any one of us, but it is just impossible for me to understand why anyone would pose as someone else for their own amusement. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether I'm actually right or not. Everyone I've met from the ET community are just really nice, trusting people, which is commendable. But sometimes we need to look twice because things may not be as they seem. Thanks, Sarah Metivier ET FAQMistress ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:25:16 -0600 From: Patrick Logterman Subject: soundscapes recommendation? My wife is a massage therapist and would like a CD of soundscapes of the soothing sort, ala the free Refraction MP3 download. I'm not familiar with the soundscape releases and don't know if there is one that has less of the darker, unsettling pieces that might upset the unsuspecting massage client. A little help? Private e-mail responses would be appropriate. Thanking you in advance, Pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:05:28 -0500 From: "pierre guertin" Subject: Toby's scrutinizing? First, John T Moshier posts in ET#914 "I assume the Trey Gunn post was genuine. Toby, do you have anyway of screening for counterfeits?" And our Toby man responds: "[ That's classified. :-) -- Toby ]" Now, in ET#913 (as Ryan Tassone noted in ET#914), we get 2 posts from Thompson Terry: the first one seems to reply to the Michael D.'s anti-TL post, but the second one seems to be a reply from this Michael D. Now Toby, is this a counterfeit or a mistake? [ This is a pure mistake on my part, as explained in the last ET. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:10:42 EST From: LabCSA at aol dot com Subject: Re: How can true Crimsos debate Tony's talent?! 8-0 To all ET'ers, world-wide: I cannot believe the tone and vitriol concerning one of the true masters of the bass guitar and Chapman Stick, old Papa Bear (Tony Levin) himself!! Look at his history...nearly single-handedly popularizing the Stick through his earliest work with Peter Gabriel (featuring old Mr. "Dusty Rhodes," aka. R. Fripp on anonymous guitar!); filling in for the remarkable Chris Squire on the Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe project; putting in a tasteful & virtuoso performance on John Lennon's last masterpiece, "Double Fantasy"; playing with Pink Floyd and uncountable studio sessions...and contributing to perhaps the most amazing of the KC incarnations! True, I have seen Tony mess up a line or two, usually with great humor & stunning recovery...Since when was Crimson a band for perfection? Don't forget why Bill Bruford was quoted as his reason for departing Yes to join KC in the LTIA years....he said "In Yes, you are not allowed to play any wrong notes. I want to play some wrong notes!" That's a true jazzer for you!! It is true that KC has showcased some remarkable bassists, but I would put Tony at the very top of the pile in terms of touch, technique, creativity & soul!! He uses nearly all techniques & even invents new ones (his Funky Fingers for example!), plays fretless AND fretted basses besides the Stick, and excels at every note! If he plays a "wrong note"...well, Robert once defined King Crimson as "a way of doing things," and we should realize that the process of playing & performing this music is NOT a class in differential equations or physics, but A CELEBRATION OF PLEASURE AND CAMARADERIE!! Please have Happy Holiday Seasons wherever you are, and I hope you enjoyed this! Cheers & Best Wishes to All, Charles Stack, Chicago IL (former bassist to Alonzo Jones, master-guitar student of Robert Fripp, in the Tulsa, OK band "CAVU"...I NEVER, EVER played wrong notes!!! Hee hee hee!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:20:49 -0500 From: "pierre guertin" Subject: Tony Levin quote "Each night before the show, I ask the club, any club, or promoter, how long they'd like me to play and they say what they think and then we just, like, play a long time, like, way longer than they ask for. I think that's funny, I don't know why I bother to ask, 'cause I just love playing for people." -Tony Levin at the Toronto Waters of Eden tour show. He's a natural. Bass playing is no sweat to him. A graceful exercise. Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:24:35 -0500 From: "Christensen, Mark" Subject: KC and Phish > Anyway, I find there are quite a few similarities between > both KC and Phish. fortunately, i don't see many similarities between the bands other than the obvious influence Fripp has had on Trey. well, that and the last time i shared a gig with Fishman, he had on a "Court of the Crimson King" t-shirt on. both bands rely heavilly on instrumentals, but where Phish's tend to be long-winded and rambling, KC's tend to be more, well, concise. both bands fans have a lemming-like quallity about them, but one crowd smells better. both bands have a guy named Trey but only one has decent posture. i was at the Orpheum show in Boston Saturday night. not a trustafarian or kind veggie burrito in sight. the sound from my vantage point did suck, though. > Of course, the biggest difference between both bands would be their > individual stances on taping. and yet both bands have cashed in by releasing boatloads of live material. hmmm... m Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.=20 http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:14:57 EST From: Gtrman3811 at aol dot com Subject: Everyone...take a chill pill! I'm get sick and tired of all this negativity and knit picking...it's really growing old. Fripp is in the shadows...it's too loud....wahhh! And if Tony Levin suck's, he must have been real lucky to play with John Lennon, Paul Simon, King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, etc... All this bickering is like critiquing a blow job; you're supposed to sit back and relax! Happy Holiday's! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:50:38 -0500 From: "Greg Jones" Subject: Where Oh where can Sid's book be had? Help! I'm going crazy watching review after review of Sid Smith's Crimson book, yet can't find it anywhere to order or buy. The online shops all have a different name for it and say it won't be out until March or April of next year. How can I get it now? Thanks for any help, Greg Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:31:59 -0700 From: Guido Vacano Subject: Re: The (not so) Final Word Michael Destefano sez-- > I don't want to witness the work in progress.. I do. This is a thing that Miles Davis and KC have (had in the case of Miles :-( ) in common--a lot of their work is "work in progress", not some static thing that has been pumped out of the music industry machine to be admired like a gemstone on a plate, but a dynamic thing like a growing redwood tree which slowly gains substance and majesty. Thank God there's more to music than the "finished product". Guido Vacano ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:36:24 -0800 (PST) From: hugh manatee Subject: out of Time - out of mind > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:28:25 -0800 (PST) > From: Bill Messinger > Subject: Completely out of Time > > There's something to consider in these posts about > math rock and the > "right" time. > > With enough Immodium AD, almost anything can be > expressed as a mathematical > equation. The one who contemplated the construction > of light went so far > as to form an equation on matter and energy being > the same thing. This > caused many repercussions for the definition of > time, for when tied with > space, it takes on a certain timelessness. Is this > what prompted Freud to > write "The Uncanny?" > > I think (NOT!) therefore I'm late. > > For musicians with too much "time" on their hands, > it might be enough to > think in terms of change. Otherwise, they loose the > beauty of the melody > until it sounds just like a song by K.C. That's why > I go for that > rock'n'roll music. > it's things like this that prompted people to develop the concept of "kill the messenger!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:53:01 EST From: LabCSA at aol dot com Subject: Re: Thanks and Happy Holidays!! Dear Elephant Talk staff: I just want to thank each & every one of you dedicated folks for your hard work, dedication, fairness and sense of humor in operating the Elephant Talk newsletter!! It is great fun, I have enjoyed seeing my name appear in postings & lately, it has even been a bit contentious!! My goodness...what would Robert say, that his music is causing such controversy?? ;-) Let us rephrase that to "STILL causing such controversy!!" Indeed, after more than 30 years of King Crimson...he just keeps on going & going!!! Cheers to all, Happy Holidays & THANKS again! Your grateful Yank friend & fan, Charles R. Stack, Aurora, IL (just outside of Chicago...see the movie "Wayne's World" for a birdseye view of Aurora!!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:33:39 -0800 From: Marc J Goodman Subject: Re: Mistakes? and Live Performance, Plus a nod to Trey (whew...) Hey Michael Destefano, I found a spelling mistake in your last post to ET #915. Two, as I look at it again. (Ooh, I almost made a mistake myself...) In the last line of the post, the word 'let's' is missing its apostrophe and the word 'with' is missing the letter 't'. Also, there are several mistakes in punctuation in your post. I won't list them all. I recall something I was taught about people who live in glass houses. You must be a little embarrassed at this point, and I feel a little sorry for you. Next time, before you hit the 'Send' button on your browser, you'll take some time to reflect and consider the possible repercussions of that action. However, something good has come of all this mess, as those of us here that care about such things were paid a personal visit from Mr. Gunn, (although the occasion could have been a bit better), and that made for some worthwhile reading on our parts. This reassurance that the various Crims past and present still read our little rantings and ravings isn't always apparent. Trey, you are such a welcome and worthy addition to the lineage, and I hope you know that! I believe I saw you open for a show several years back at the Wiltern theater in L.A., and was wondering who this fabulous new stick player was, sitting in the center of all his gear and entertaining all of us straggling in to see Mssrs. Fripp, Sylvian, et. al. Not surprisingly, you played all night, as you played with the band, as well. You've progressed by incredible leaps and bounds both as a solo artist and with KC, and I always look forward to hearing your contributions to the music. By the way, you sounded great last month at the Ampitheater here. Back to you, now, Michael D.: "Creativity is something that is nurtured and fine tuned---I don't want to witness the work in progress.." I believe you meant this when you said it in your last post, but you are probably, again, in the minority here. And that's fine, by the way. However, please allow the rest of us to be entertained as we find suitable for each of us respectively. I, for one, recognize the long history and background of the music of KC as one which draws so heavily on a basis of jazz improv and arrangements in a rock framework. There will always be a large factor of improv in Crimson. All of jazz throughout its own history is one of a melody followed by improvised sections which usually followed it, sometimes by many players at once, or even completely made up on the spot 'compositions'. There were always plenty of 'mistakes' in even the most highly techically advanced players' work, both in the studio and live. Actually, lots of stuff recorded in the studio is just a live recording anyway, just not in front of an outside audience, as we all know. I really love hearing the live improvs as well as the solos in the more 'prepared' tunes, both instrumental and vocal. I'm not picky. I'll take it all. I don't care if I never hear another familiar composition by these guys at all, actually, as they are so incredibly gifted and giving that at this point, as it has been for them for a looooong time, I don't believe I can expect a 'bad' note from any of them, or from whoever future generations of Crim should bring into the fold. (Yes, I believe that the continuum will exist with folks as yet unimagined, even by the Leader.) Sorry for the run-ons, the long post, the gushing (as I often do in this forum), or any perceived condescension (sp?)toward you, Michael. Marc J Goodman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:12:34 -0500 From: "Grassy Sound" Subject: Radical Dance Whatever happened to Radical Dance? The small snippet that appeared on the DGM sampler was absolutely stunning, and it would be great to hear more. Is it/was it available at one point? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:56:04 -0500 From: "Mike Miller" Subject: Riding the Hostility Bandwagon through Volume Valley Yes yes, my fellow subjects of the King, Well, I feel it's time to finally chime in to all of this, after having been a silent observer for so long. I am amused and dissapointed with the hostility and band-wagoneering (is that a word?) that takes place in this newsletter. We seem like some mildly intelligent people. Lets have some interesting discussions about music rather than get all aggressive and silly, like a bunch of brain jocks. THis whole thing with the poor guy who posted the anti-Levin note is really getting lame. All the guy said was that he didn't like Tony Levin. Come on people. I personally love Tony Levin and everything I have heard that he has done. His work with Crimson is particularly fantastic. So the guy dosen't like Tony Levin. Leave him alone. Believe it or not, some people don't like the Beatles - you should ask why, but you shouldn't stomp them into the ground. Somebody said something about this reminding him of a schoolyard argument... I would bet that if Mr. Gunn hadn't posted that message, there would be a lot less hostility towards this guy, and a little more intelligent probing - he (Trey) kind of set a mood that has been exploited. I really dig Trey Gunn, in fact just as much as Tony Levin (in the Crimson context), but his posting a note of that tone in a newsletter devoted to a band that he just so happens to be a member of is a little odd - Wait a minute now, let us be civil, I'm not trying to start a riot. Also, the whole Level 5 tour volume issue - I'm REALLY lost on this one. I saw Crimson/JPJ in Greensburgh, PA on December 2 and it was without a doubt the most moving, spiritual concert I have ever attended, and I've been to quite a few - that said, I can without hesitation also add that it was the quietest show I have ever seen. Not to say that it was "quiet" now, of course it wasn't, but it was the least-loud show I've ever been too. And that really added to the pleasure of the show. I am always annoyed and angered when bands play their shows at ridiculously loud levels. I always bring ear plugs in case I need them, (I'm a young guy too, [21] so I'm trying to save some hearing for down the road) and this was one of a handful of shows where earplugs were completely unnessacary. The sound for the whole show was excellent, and I made a point to seek out the sound guy and tell him how good the sound was. JPJ was not "muddy". It was certianly ragged and raw, but thats the way his music apparently sounds (I hadn't heard anything by JPJ since the Zeppelin days, and being very impressed, I picked up his disc at the show). The only problem with the JPJ Orchestra was that strange, Monsters of Rock stick player in the kilt. The guy was good, don't get me wrong, but if it looked at his weird 80's hair metal posing and facial expressions for very long, it really started detracting from the experience. So I directed my eyes in John's direction and all was well. Every now and then I caught a random Manowar impression out of the corner of my eye, but I just put it out of mind. Crimson was crisp and clear, I could hear everything just fine, Adrian's voice was full and clear and sounding just as good as it did twenty years ago. In fact, I would have to say the sound at this show was better than I've ever heard. It really was a great show. The crowd was fantastic, although it seemed to weird the band out a little. There was total, TOTAL silence, like at chruch or something, as soon as every song started, and outrageous applause and standing ovations between songs. Adrian asked us towards the end how many people were seeing Crimson for the first time and more than half of us raised their hands (myself included). Trey said something in his diary of the show about how after the audience survey he thought, well no wonder everyone's sitting with their gobs on the floor, they're just experiencing this band for the first time. That's kind of a weird way to put it. I happen to own every official Crimson album, the Projekcts, Great Deciever, a fair amount of solo Fripp, etc, etc. I'm sure many of the "first-timers" at the show could say the same thing, and in fact did say the same thing to me, before the show and after. I can assure you we were not "experiencing the band for the first time." I brought a couple of friends who were definatly "experienceing the band for the first time," and their reaction needs no elaboration. I think the crowd felt (and I think this is wonderful), "hey, I want and NEED to hear everything these guys play". I even heard a few "Shhh"s right at the very beginning when the first whispers of Dangerous Curves started bleeding through the sound system. All I could do was smile, give my friend next to me a five, and say to myself, "yes." In fact, after the show ended, I couldn't help but think of that scene in Jack Kerouac's "On The Road" when they go to see George Shearing and Dean just keeps saying "There he is! Old God Shearing!" And when Shearing left the stage at the end, Dean simply pointed at the empty stool and said, "God's empty chair." I'm really excited about what's to come for King Crimson, and I feel that this is a great period in the band's time (that's really silly. every time King Crimson exists is a great time!) Here's a thought to end on - how great would it be to be at a Crimson show when the decided to play Larks Tongues parts 1-4 all in a row... "can't we all just get along?" Mike Miller ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 2001 03:40:30 -0500 From: Ittai Balaban Subject: NYC Concert 12/13 - Just a comment Hello. First time post for me. Had to do it, due to the historic moment. Just got back from the Dec. 13 NYC show, which for me, held the same expectations as for the Second Coming of Beethoven. So obviously, no one can ever live up to these, save maybe the original 1973 KC. My two comments: First, I heard some beautiful noise tonight (TCOL, Deception of the Thrush (Gunn's solo - wow), the new Level Five). Secondly: Does Fripp really enjoy playing live? I'm not sure. The adrenaline wasn't there.. Cheers, Ittai ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:38:12 +0100 From: "aron 2.4" Subject: RE :Introduction/Sinfield etc. "What is this book? Can somebody help me out?" Author : Sid Smith Title: In the court of King Crimson ISBN: 1-900924-26-9 I think it comes out in America in 2002 (i've read in comments from Americans) but you could order it at Helter Skelter in the UK right now: http://www.skelter.demon.co.uk/ The book also has it's own website: http://www.inthecourtofkingcrimson.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:43:09 +0100 From: "Arno Pelzer" Subject: Re: Introduction/Sinfield etc. 2 I forgot : There's also a website about Peter Sinfield's lyrics : http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:38:10 EST From: Gr8Drums at aol dot com Subject: Re: the Levin / Gunn thing Greetings ETers, Let's set aside a few opinions and a lot of emotions here and try using a little logic. Tony Levin is one of the (if not THE) most internationally sought after bassists around today. I'll bet he turns down more gigs in a year than most of us get to play in five (ouch!). If you were to do the math (a pure logic), I guarantee that the odds would turn out to be waaaay in favor of his NOT sucking. I mean, c'mon, we all know it's not the musical world that's crazy and the only sane person in it is that silly little guy that I'd never even heard of before his Levin bashing post... What was his name again? Ah, who cares? Bottom line is that there's always someone beating down Levin's door to try and snag him to play for them. Who's beating down your door (Mike D.) ? OK, let's jump right back into the trenches of opinions, so that I may offer mine. Words may be vehicles that take us to places we normally wouldn't go, but often in the online world, where we are free from eye contact, people seem to find it very easy to misuse and abuse that vehicle. Many of these words often turn out to be exaggerated or wholly untrue. When reading ET posts, I have no way of telling who is communicating using dishonesty or misrepresentation, unless I know of them and have witnessed that they can back their words up. I know of Trey Gunn. I have heard him play on many occasions. In my humble opinion, the guy can most definitely put his money where his mouth is. Of course some ET poster(s) may feel that their opinion(s) are just as strong and valid as the proven expert's on the subject(s)..... Well, only to yourselves. The rest of us value and respect Trey's opinion more. We know good and well who he is and what he can do. Who are you and what can you do (T.T.T. Jr.) ? And one more thing: the vast majority of music (almost all of it, actually) utilizes meter, which is basically synonymous with groove. Strong sense of meter = good timing = groove = pocket. If one is born without a strong natural sense of rhythm, most players are still able to develop their meter and achieve a good sense of rhythm through practice with a metronome. And for those who lack the ability to grasp it, or for those of you who are too lazy to practice with a metronome, a drum machine or any other means of "machine" or "computer" perfect time, in order to secure one of the most fundamentally important aspects of musicianship -- then, yes, this does make you less of a musician. Absolutely 100% Sincerely, Melodie Zapata ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:49:07 -0600 From: Todd F Harrison Subject: Tony Levin I know this thread is almost dead, but...Tony Levin's groove is deep and his sense of the pocket is amazing. Try listening to him with Peter Gabriel, for instance, on some speakers with true bass response. Todd in Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:54:06 -0500 From: "Caruso, Josette" Subject: The benefits of being a Groupie at a KC show! First of all I'd like to thank all of you groovy guys who offered to buy me a cocktail at the Tower Theatre show on Tuesday nite! Had I accepted the 32 offers, someone would have surely "gotten lucky!" I have to say that it's wonderful being a woman at a King Crimson show! So many really friendly men who are pleasant, polite and complimentary...all in one room! I had a great seat, 3rd row directly in front of Trey. I'll be at the Beacon Theatre tonite with Nico....and I look forward to seeing those of you who said you would also be there! xoxoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:49:20 -0800 From: "Kreider" Subject: TIME I'd like to say that I am a musician with too much "TIME" in my hands, and I'm a web'oholic. I'm on my way down the tubes to manhattan for the KC show, I wonder what the place looks like in this "TIME", will it's conformity be such that my memory goes into shock or will it be such as the lost city in the sea at the end of the world where the lions weep. P.S. The terroristic reality of the 12/12/space oddity is that there was no 12/12/space oddity, it went 12/11 to 12/13 and the 12/13 is consuming the 12/12 to be in existence in time. -EVK http://nicosintimatenotebook.com/ ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #916 ********************************