Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #914 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 914 Thursday, 13 December 2001 Today's Topics: Re: 2 things King Crimson & Phish: a setlist scenario ET #912 ROCKED! TONY LEVIN Dave's energy guide and a post by Trey Is Conformity THAT Necessary?? Yeah, 12 Years Old... Re: Tony redux A request to King Crimson Collectors Club members Re: C.Club 18-Detroit 1971 Recent stuff! science or art??? Trey or Tony??? ears in Question...and for Trey Gunn ears in Question...and for Trey Gunn GIG REVIEW: Boston 12/8/01 GIG REVIEW: Boston 12/8 [Comment] ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:01:33 -0500 From: "Paul A. O'Rear" Subject: Re: 2 things John Wilcox wrote: > 1 - Was I the only one to notice that JPJ's stick player was the guy from > Kaja GooGoo? No - you weren't the only one! :) I saw JPJ last year as well on his first tour which featured the same lineup. After the show when the roadies were loading the truck in front of the theatre I could see Beggsy's stick case which still had KAJAGOOGOO stenciled on the side - I thought it was remarkable that he still used the same case and had a good laugh. Both Nick and the drummer Terl Bryant played with a Celtic progressive Christian rock band called Iona for several years and produced some really beautiful innovative music there. Whether you agree with the message or not, the music is wonderful. They were a part of the band for I believe the first 3 albums - "Iona" (debut), "Book of Kells" and "Beyond These Shores". On the last one, "Beyond These Shores", Robert Fripp even contributed some soundscaping/frippertronics on one piece. > 2 - $15.00 wasn't expensive for the tour "EP." The EP is over 45 min long - > easily as long as many full releases! Right on! Paul Paul A. O'Rear Ph: 717.502.1906 WUGNET Sysop & Microsoft Help MVP Helpful Solutions http://www.helpfulsolutions.com mailto:pao at helpfulsolutions dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:09:32 -0800 From: "Brian Kelley" Subject: King Crimson & Phish: a setlist scenario Well, seeing all of these recent threads about KC and Phish has forced me to come out of "lurk mode" and make my own assessment. I was turned onto KC back in my senior year in college in Savannah in Spring '93. I first heard Larks Tongues in its entirety and was TOTALLY BLOWN AWAY!!! After that, I went out and almost immediately bought all the 70's era KC, all the way back to Court and Poseidon. Fast forward to January '95. I first bought Phish's "Lawnboy" CD and was totally taken away, though in a different type of mindset and style altogether. I had heard "Sample in a Jar" about a year before on the radio, not knowing WHO the hell the band was? For all I knew, it could have been the Spin Doctors. But once I KNEW who Phish was, there was no mistaken. Trey Anastasio is definitely one of the finest guitarists out there. Of course, Trey has decided to put Phish on a temporary hiatus while devoting time into Oysterhead with Les Claypool (whom has covered Ginjeet several times with Frog Brigade) and the "Original Drum Machine" Stewart Copeland. Anyway, I find there are quite a few similarities between both KC and Phish. For one, when performing in a live setting, they are all improvisational. That is, certain songs (esp. the long-winded jams) are never the same twice! Phish, for example, can get into this groove and stay in a steady 4/4 funk for 10 minutes while still maintaining an underlying theme. Some songs like "Gotta Jiboo", "Gumbo", and "Bathtub Gin" have gone on for well over 20 minutes before during a show. As much as improvisation though, it is almost like a "telepathic" sense of honing in to the other musician's rhythms and counter-rhythms. Perhaps Fripp is a little more structural in regards to keeping to the exact notes and mood of a song. However, I've seen Fripp and Belew just totally WAIL out some riffs and wild appeggios that were TOTALLY UNEXPECTED and almost knocked me off my seat! So every now and then, the element of surprise will surely come into play! Another similarity I have found is that speaking upon the minds of the leaders of both bands, Fripp and Anastasio respectively have an immense love for jazz and a fusion of other genres and musical elements. Take the first two KC albums for instance: 21CSM is a wildly-mixed cohesion of jazz, rock, and the early progressive style they are so noted for. Ian McDonald is playing almost in a Miles Davis-style version of saxophone (though Davis played trumpet, of course). Then listen to tracks like "I Talk To The Wind", with a more of a soft jazz and easy listening approach, showcasing Lake's sincere vocals and Michael Giles' trademark drumming style - albeit at a slower pace. (Btw, ITTTW is one of the most beautifully composed songs I think the band has ever written.) Go one album into the future with "Poseidon" and listen to the original off-time signature tune "Cat Food". Especially "Groon" from the Great Deceiver box set, which I fail to see why it didn't make the cut onto Poseidon. With Phish, all of the members have a well-versed musical upbringing in jazz, rock, classical, bluegrass, reggae, and other various genres. Anastasio and drummer Jon Fishman were originally trained in the elements of jazz playing, with a bit of ROCK involved I'm sure :) Btw, Fishman would be one of the first to cite Bruford as one of his major drumming influences. Page McConnell was more classically trained on piano, while bassist Mike Gordon got more into funk and bluegrass and even more into the ethnocentric realms like calypso, mamba, and reggae. Mix that whole bag together and what do you get?!!? One giant smorgasboard of wildly-varying eclectic musical themes wrapped into a colorful burrito of their own design. On one album in particular which I previously mentioned, "Lawn Boy", each of the first 4 songs are so different from one another style-wise, you could hardly know it's actually the SAME BAND playing them. "The Squirming Coil", "Reba", "My Sweet One", and "Split Open and Melt" have the feels of easy listening rock, psychedelic middle instrumental jamming, bluegrass, and jazz fusion respectively. Personally, I think the album MOST like KC would be "A Picture of Nectar". In my opinion, that album reminds me alot of Poseidon, Lizards, or even Islands. Of course, these KC albums contain the horns of Ian McDonald and Mel Collins on gems like "Indoor Games", "Happy Family", and "A Sailor's Tale". Strange enough, Picture of Nectar is the most jazzy-sounding KC-like album imo, yet without adding the elements of a brass section in the production. Yet during some shows in the early-to-mid 90s, Phish did bring along the Giant Country Horns to play during their shows or sets, even on such Nectar tunes as "Llama", "Cavern", and "Landlady". Now even though KC's style does take a change more into the heavy progressive 70s rock during the Wetton-era, Phish still even show bits of heavy guitar-crunching (thanks to Trey A.) like "Sample in a Jar", "Maze", "First Tube" and the phan favorite thrash-style, head-banging "Big Black Furry Creature From Mars". Stylistically though, I DO think that Fripp and Anastasio are fairly different in terms of the way they approach their instrument. Whereas Fripp may be more technically oriented and maybe more "restrictive" in the styles he performs live, Anastasio has such a diversified style all-around, going from a jazz-fusion number one moment, to a swinging Marley-style reggae tune the next, then going out and hammering with full force on a heavy space-rock composition. Again, I'm not trying to compare Fripp to Anastasio or anything like that! I LOVE BOTH BANDS EQUALLY, guitarists and fellow musicians alike, as strange as it may sound. I love them both for the same reasons, as well as for different reasons. Both bands have had a profound impact in my life, especially during the harder times in my life, such as my last quarter in college or after a bitter break-up with the "fairer sex" ;) I would easily place bands such as KC, Phish, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Marillion, and a few others in my TOP TEN OF ALL-TIME!!! I have a wide, vast range of musical interests (in rock, prog, jazz, blues, fusion, bluegrass, etc) and those are some big reasons why I love both KC and Phish so much!!! They have all gone through some tremendous changes in musical direction over the years, though I would say Fripp would get the trophy for "most interchanging personnel in a band during a career" ;) Honorable mention would go to YES, of course! Of course, the biggest difference between both bands would be their individual stances on taping. Phish and dozens of the so-called "jam bands" welcome taping with open arms, while Fripp is adamantly against it entirely. And he has his reasons, as well as he should be entitled to them. But that's another debate entirely, so I won't go down that road... Another difference would surely be the setlists. With myself being the veteran of 44 Phish shows since first seeing them in 1995, I have not yet seen ONE single Phish show that was the same as another. Each night is totally different - in style, approach, song selections, you name it! Every 4th or 5th show, you would probably see Fishman come out from behind his drum kit to take a vacuum cleaner solo to Neil Diamond's "Cracklin' Rosie", or else have Trey and Mike bounce up and down on the mini-trampolines during "You Enjoy Myself". Yes, they are "Rock's Vaudvillians at their Finest". :) I have seen about 7 or 8 KC shows since also first seeing them in '95 (funny enough, it was during a Phish run in November when both bands were playing on opposite ends of Peachtree St from one another, during the same weekend). I managed to catch the first two of the 3 Phish shows, followed the next day by seeing the first of 2 KC shows at the Roxy Theatre in Atlanta. (Durnit, I missed Fishman playing Elvis, but hey -- I wasn't gonna miss Crimso for the world!!!! :) Granted Fripp does subtlely change the setlist each night, but only by usually rearranging a few songs here or there, or omitting one, and adding one. Still, it has morely changed since Bruford and Levin are gone. B'Booom > Thrak or Talking Drum just wouldn't have the same effect I guess without the Bruf. Now I don't think we'd ever see Mr. Fripp do a trampoline or vacuum solo, but that wouldn't keep us from dreaming about it - lol! Belew is easily the most practical and joker-like in the band, especially with his classic one-liner comments during the show. But recently, especially this year, I HAVE seen Fripp even crack a smile or two (or even MANY) during a show. Especially during Patricia Fripp's late show announcement back in May 2000 in Nashville! She is the polar opposite of his dear brother Robert (herself being a motivational speaker), but perhaps that event changed something in the Ol' Fripper, huh?!! Hey, as long as the bands are having fun, that's what counts, right!!! Before I leave, let me close here with my ideal Phish-style KC setlist. Perhaps this topic ALONE could make a great thread. Hey, if any fellow Phish-Crimso-Heads wanna join me in this (on the list or privately), lemme know. This could be loads of fun!!! Think of all the possibities!!!!!!! :) :) :) At various Phish shows, you never know WHAT or WHOM is gonna come out of the wordwork. Phish have had many guest stars pop out of the blue (such as Phil Lesh, John Popper, Ken Kesey, Emmy Lou Harris, Wynonna Judd, etc.) (NOTE: Phish shows are usually done in 2 sets, so I'm making this into a 2-set KC scenario!) SET ONE: Dangerous Curves > LTIA1, THG* > Neurotica > Sartori in Tangier > Response To Stimuli, Cat Food > Groon, A Sailor's Tale&, Neal and Jack and Me^ > Three of a Perfect Pair > Frame by Frame (1 hr 13 min) SET TWO: Red > The ConstuKction of Light > TWIMOSKFWM*, Indoor Games^& > Happy Family^&, Fracture > FraKctured > Fracture > When I Say Stop Continue...#^, Exiles&&, Easy Money&& > B'Booom## > Drumz## > Thrak##@, Elephant Talk##@, Frame by Frame##@, Sleepless##@, LTIA2##@ (1 hr 45 min) E1: 21CSM###, Epitaph###, Thursday Morning###$ (16 min) E2: Starless@@, [Gunn and Masteletto leave stage before the Grand Finale....] The King Crimson Barber Shop####^, Heroes##### (24 min) * Thela Hun Ginjeet, The World Is My Oyster Soup Kitchen Floor Wax Museum & with Mel Collins on sax && with Jon Wetton on vocals # remember this one from the VROOOM EP??? Wonder why they've NEVER played this one live!! ## Bruford joins on side drum kit @ Levin steps in right as Thrak starts, Levin plays Stick on "Sleepless" ^ First time played!!!! ### with Greg Lake on vocals (along with Ian McDonald on sax on 21CSM and flute on Epitaph, and YES - M. Giles on drums!!!) ###$ with Michael Giles on vocals -- Giles, Giles, and Fripp tune!!! @@ 18+ minute version, with 21CSM and James Bond 007 teases. #### ACAPELLA (Fripp, Belew, Levin, Bruford) ##### WITH DAVID BOWIE ON VOCALS!!!!!! (featuring Fripp, Belew, Levin, Bruford, Gunn, Mastelleto, Wetton, Lake, Giles, McDonald, Collins) Fireworks exploding all over the place, outside the venue, while a giant Glass Spider prop (a la Bowies '87 tour) drops down from the ceiling. Bowie then gets on top of the spider while it lifts back up, all this time the band finish off with a quick 2 minute SICK JAM!!!!!! End of show. Do you have your ideal KC setlist (with or without the "Phish-isms"??? ;) If so, please email me privately, or if you're corny enough like ME, post it here on ET!!! Thanks, y'all. This was TOO FUN!!!!! Peace and prog and perennial phun, Brian Kelley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:15:20 -0600 From: "Brothers, Michael (IA)" Subject: ET #912 ROCKED! I nominate the edition of Elephant Talk #912 as the COOLEST issue ever. A quick review of what it had to offer--a semi-hostile response to what was obviously a cracked post to begin with, forcing Toby to break out the moderator's Wand of Niceness, Trey Gunn personally telling the Tony Levin basher exactly which cliff off of which to jump (thanks Mr. Gunn, my sentiments, said so much better, and of course your credibility in the area is unimpeachable), Ms. Josette taking on the middle-aged white male establishment here at ET (God bless you, Josette. On second thought, God, create more women like Josette), Mark(c) Tucker reduced to near tears by the thought of a 12-year old listening to anything but bubblegum (not making fun, I enjoyed reading what you had to say, Mark), an apparent end to the Phish thread (I mean, how can you go beyond someone knowing EXACTLY when an obscure song that sounds like 'Discipline' that was never recorded on an album was last played in concert), the JPJ Orchestra/Kaja GooGoo connection, and an absence of gig reviews (don't get me wrong, I love most of them, it's just that lately they have become ponderous and repetitive). I mean, can any single issue top that? I realize I've read less that 5% of the entire canon, but I find it hard to believe any other issue packed as much entertainment into such a small space. Take Care, mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:35:16 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: TONY LEVIN Robert Fripp once said "Tony Levin isn't a bassist. He mearly plays the bass". And I'd have to agree with him on this one. Maybe he isn't the most technically gifted bassist in the world (if indeed you're right in suggesting he goes out of time, although I've never heard of or seen this), but that's because he isn't a bassist. He's a musician. 'Nuff said. This thread is even more stupid than the "Adrian Belew is shit" one. At least someone's vocals is a matter of taste (and I think Adrian Belew is, quite frankly, the man).. Tony's musicianship cannot be questioned. Cameron Devlin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:03:06 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: Dave's energy guide and a post by Trey Greetings, If anyone really wants to hear Dave's Energy Guide, the so-called "Crimson Jam" if it is a different song, or anything else by Phish it can be had with a lot of time and some work. Phish allows, and even encourages taping of its shows, and tape trees and set lists exist so that you can eventually get anything you want. Check out http://phish.net if you want more info. On a more exciting note, How 'bout that post from Trey Gunn in ET 912. Its great to see the guys sticking up for each other. Flaming a class act like Tony Levin is unpardonable. If anyone really wants to get insight into how talented TL really is, check out the text of his speach to his co- alums at either the Eastman or the Rochester (I'm not sure of the correct name) school of music. TL got his degree in playing bass violin (as in symphony orchestra) and his speech talks about making the transition from classical to popular music. It is available on his website which you can probably link to from the ET web page. I assume the Trey Gunn post was genuine. Toby, do you have anyway of screening for counterfeits? [ That's classified. :-) -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:47:28 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Is Conformity THAT Necessary?? After reading Trey Gunns rather extreme reply to Mike DeStefano, along with a couple other retorts, I thought I might try to toss in a little mediation of sorts. DeStefanos comments on Tony were bound to kick up a fuss but I didnt find them all that vicious, merely curmudgeonly and amusing. Of course I dont agree with him at all, but suspect he spoke from a basing in older Crim, with its rock-hero bassists playing their more muscular and dramatic roles (Wetton et al). I could be wrong and dont wish to put words in his mouth, but that was the intuitional sense I drew out of it. In one sense hes right: Tony doesnt fit the mold, thus DeStefanos expectations havent been met. However, a few things need to be understood about Tony. He, along with other bass-playing bulwarks like Lee Sklar, is one of the top bassists on planet earth. Ive been following him almost as long as Ive been listening to John Abercrombie (Ill be amazed if anyone out there even recalls one of Johns first play-ins: the old Friends hyper-fusion group with Marc Cohen, from waaaay back!) and have always been stunned by his versatility. Hes played on more LPs, Im willing to bet, than Lee Ritenour, Jeff Baxter, Steve Khan, Larry Carlton (all guitarists, I know, but they pop to mind first) or any of the perennial and mega-prolific session must-haves. Tonys ability to LIVE in the music hes playing is astonishing. Whether its Chuck Mangione or Paul Simon or KC, he invests each musicians compositions with a living breathing complementarianism that composers and musicians pray to God they can locate in back-up players. Tony seems unafraid to take on any assignment and never fails to deliver the goods. Hes as in-demand as anyone I can think of. In Crimson, he brought a jaw-dropping facility, complexity, and smoothness that requires well-tuned ears to appreciate fully. Merely on virtue of complexity, hes the most dexterous KC has yet had. I was stunned when Robert chose him, it was a revolutionary move for Crimson. One need only watch the videos to see what an incredible talent he possesses on that daunting Stick and his parts are so fulsome that the listener can easily be tricked into thinking his voicings are guitar parts. Too, though, keep in mind that its the rhythm units task to NOT stand out and smother the other players while still expressing themselves, a difficult balancing act far more often observed in the breach. Tony lays out such an ambient bedrock, a listener can readily take him for granted, luxuriating mindlessly in his structures and ignoring how vital that contribution is to the group. I liken the misfortune of the bassists role to what occurred in Led Zeppelin 1, wherein John Paul Jones drop-dead brilliant lines are never commented upon by listeners while Page and Plant are (rightly) hyped to the skies. Geezus, even Bonham, one of the worst drummers in history (he started out quite decently and went downhill rapidly) gets so much more notice than Jones. Only recently have I found an example of bass-playing similar to Jones work in Zep 1: Colin Edwins incredible lines in Porcupine Trees Sky Move Sideways. He, too, is not properly prized for his ultra-righteous work, some of the most intelligent and coloration-invested bass playing in a long long time. I neednt belabor Tonys killer work here, singing more than necessary to the choir, but I thought Id drop those facts in, to lead away a little from the emotionalism thats stoking up - even Trey was going off the rails (I suspect comments like nothing about music is measurable and to listen to music through your ears must be agony were made in a fit of anger and passion). Can we not let people have differing viewpoints? I, as I say, found DeStefano amusing, nothing more, certainly unworthy of savaging. From his viewpoint and expectations, he was justified, and the ring of that was present in his comments. Had he carried on ad infinitum with a really personal attack, I wouldve felt otherwise. Are we so feeble in our partisanship of KC that a contrarian must be attacked so vehemently? Id hope that, every once in while, wed weary a little of the sea of agreement and conformity and welcome a dissenting voice. It wouldnt sway anyones sentiments an iota, as can be readily seen, and would make for the contrast that allows the object of devotion to stand out all the more clearly. Frankly, I was refreshed by DeStefanos profane heresy, it was a lot more interesting than some of the fan-boy idolatrous blather one can encounter in this forum. I dont agree with him, but I applaud his courage to stand in opposition to concensus. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:47:35 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: Yeah, 12 Years Old... >Whoa!!! Waitaminnit...youre 12 YEARS OLD?!?!?! Yep. Surprised? >Geez, you had me completely >fooled! Congratulations on your unusual maturation. Thanks :-) >On the other hand, now >the Kiss fixation is explained. ...Don't get me started on KISS being a kid-band and stuff like that...I can argue for days about it. But I will say this: KISS are a fun rock and roll band. They set out to make people happy, and they do. Each member of the band, past and present, have been/are very talented and great song writers....The make-up and stage show just add fuel to the fire that is KISS...Ever been to a KISS show, Mark? You want to. Believe me. In the 80's they didn't have the make-up; they were and are a serious band; they're serious business-men. You think the merchandise is for KIDS? ...Man, besides me (I'm an exception), no kid likes KISS around here...NO ONE. And every year when I attend the annual KISS Convention, it's an older crowd. >Your parents must be unsually hip and intelligent. Mostly my dad, though my mom is cool too. My dad turned me onto rock and roll...Heh...raised me well, did he not? But he only turned me onto a few bands-Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Metallica-the basics. I pretty much discovered everything else for myself, especially prog, because my dad isn't into prog that much. One day, sifting through stacks of CD's, I came across KC's first album...That was about 5 years ago. I paid no more attention after a few listens until about 6 months ago, maybe less....When I discovered Gentle Giant (via a friend of mine...not all too smart, but at least he's into GOOD music), I decided to look for more progressive material...I bought SABB, and lookit me now. >I dont know as I would agree with your assessment of KC as being much >bluesier back then. You're right, they weren't really BLUESY...I was just thinking of Ladies Of The Road...That's a bluesy song, no doubt. >I used to see Deep Purple .... Ah, one of the best! Saw 'em twice and counting...Hoping they come out with a new studio album and do another tour! Abandon was a great album. >Out of curiosity, what other prog groups do you like? Well, the obvious are King Crimson and, as I've mentioned, Gentle Giant. That's really all I can say! I mean, I like Yes a bit, and I know a little Genesis, but otherwise, I've yet to discover all the other bands out there...I know of Spock's Beard (heard a couple of their songs and they are AMAZING, HEAVILY influenced by Gentle Giant) and some others but...I dunno...It's hard to find any good prog 'round here. Oh, and there's Jethro Tull...if you classify them as prog, some people don't. I love those guys, man...Martin Barre is one of the best guitarists around...VERY under-appreciated. I've been to around 10 or so concerts...I'll list 'em for ya', even though you probably don't care :-) -KISS 3 times; once with Ted Nugent (one of my favorite guitarists) -Deep Purple, Ted Nugent, Lynyrd Skynyrd (all in one show...Skynyrd STOLE THE SHOW) -Jehtro Tull -ELP and Deep Purple (I was impressed by ELP, but Purple KICKED, man) -Steely Dan (one of the best shows I've ever seen; one of the greatest bands ever) -Aerosmith twice (wearing a 'Smith shirt now, actually) -The Rolling Stones w/ Foo Fighters (FF were distorted, Stones..well..they were the Stones..'nuff said) -AC/DC w/ Buckcherry (loudest show I've ever been too...I think my ears are STILL ringing) -Going to see Ozzy on December 23rd with Rob Zombie and I might see King Crimson (yay) at the Beacon this Saturday (I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE). That's enough babble for now...sorry for the long post. ---Mike, Child Prodigy (heh, just kidding) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:17:29 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Re: Tony redux Pierre wrote: : Anyway, let me just add that from a fan's point of view (I'm no musician : by a long shot), TL's record speaks for itself. Let me add (as a semi-pro musician) that virtually every musician I know is a big TLev fan (especially the bassists). Obviously dozens of professional musicians are fans or they wouldn't hire him. More than once in the last month, when I've told people I was going to see King Crimson, their first question was "Is Tony Levin still in the band". His reputation speaks for itself. To the original poster, I can only hope that he can someday learn to appreciate music on a level that doesn't involve counting the number of times the musician screwed up. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:23:24 -0500 From: "Wm. Cass" Subject: A request to King Crimson Collectors Club members Re: C.Club 18-Detroit 1971 I am long-time King Crimson fan who has an extensive collection of rarities and live concerts from the 1969-1974 era. These were acquired from a network of worldwide friends long before the Collectors Club was created. As much as I would like to join the Club, I am currently unable to do so at present for financial reasons. However, I intend to do this ASAP, as I would much prefer that the musical artists in Crimson receive the money for their work. However, in the meantime I am posting this letter in the hope that any members of the Club who have Collectors Club 18-Detroit 1971, might be able to make a one-time trade for this concert only? If anyone can send me a copy of this, I have the new level 5 CD, a seriously rare Jamie Muir live performance from 1981 and many other shows.Please post any e-mails to my address at: salmacis at hotmail dot com dot Thanks dot Neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:28:15 -0500 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Recent stuff! Hello all, a few quick items of interest: 1. There's a new gameshow on USA called "Smush" (I'm pretty sure), and the object of the game is to construct (construKct?) strings of words that make phrases with the preceding ones, a la "Oyster Soup!" There were some pretty interesting ones, as I remember. 2. Trey Gunn on ET...so they do read it every now and then! Y'know, I find something odd, and it's how time after time, band after band, when a musician gets "replaced" due to circumstances beyond their control, or even in their control, the majority of fans immediately conclude that the new members must hate the old ones! In a Pat diary entry, he talks about people who ask him, "wow, you must sure be glad Bill's not in the band anymore, huh?" 3. Quick clarification, this might just be because I didn't read closely enough...why is there what seems to be a response to Trey Gunn coming from a guy named Thompson Terry? I thought Michael what's-his-name was the original poster. Maybe it's just a header error? 4. Any UK fans should visit John Wetton's website (I don't have the URL handy, but it's on Krimson News) and check out the lyrics section. I've been looking for the words to the first album for so long! I can't believe what I thought he was singing all this time! It's really wacky to actually read the official lyrics (and I think they're pretty accurate, too, as the website sometimes lists a few possibilities for certain lines, or differences between the album version and the live version). Check it out! 5. Lastly, just because it's gonna annoy me if I don't say it, during "Sleepless" on the Live in Tokyo video, it's BELEW who comes in late during the chorus, NOT Levin. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:13:51 -0800 From: "PFrank" Subject: science or art??? Trey or Tony??? I am a long time reader, yet a first time poster... I do hope you have all seen the commercial on tv, stating that "wine is for enjoying, not for stressing over". If you have not, please read the last quote. Again. Apply it liberally to King(s) Crimson, since there are many. The vast majority of you are in desparate need of some kind of life. You over-analyze (emphasis *anal*) to the point you lose the music. You break down all the time sigs and keys. You compare Pat to Bill, Tony to Trey. What was Adrian thinking??? Where is Larks pt.1? I Wanna Hear "I Talk To The Wind".... I swear to gawd, he hit a wrong note.... are you beginning to catch my direction here? Perhaps you should forget for awhile the analysis, close your eyes, and just LISTEN. AGAIN. and AGAIN. Do you enjoy it? Does it move you? Certainly it does, and will again, else you would not bother posting here. A song is only a song. Talent however, is another matter. KC in all incarnations has been overabundent in creative talent, both composing and performing. I saw them very recently in West Palm Beach Florida, and honestly did not care what songs they played. I only wanted to listen to them create, and create they did. Marvelous show, and I would pay good money for a taped copy. The point is, geezuz guys, drop the bicker. Dig on the Crim. Do it for the music's sake, not for how far you can break a song apart or which version of KC was best. Hells bells, that's why we have chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry. Everyone gets a choice, or can sample them all. I have been buying each and every King Crimson album when it was released new (yes, I'm that old...), and I've found new life in each incarnation, refreshing in its diversity, compelling in its musicianship. Just listen to these guys PLAY. You'll not soon hear another like Robert Fripp, and he always manages to surround himself with the best talent available. Peace, friends. Hope I did not piss in your wheaties on first post.... Ft. Myers, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:25:08 -0800 (PST) From: jonathan sindelman Subject: ears in Question...and for Trey Gunn I seldom post to ET, but I do browse often, though very casually at times, frequently skipping over a lot of the smelly commentary dwelling in many oooogy booogally realms of comparison, the rotten fruits of which seem ultimately content as surfacing here. But that Tony Levin post....what to say about that Tony Levin post, especially if anyone regards King Crimson as a band helping many to listen and even possibly alter the ear's conditioning when presented the many shades, perspectives, etc., regardless of what era the organization made itself available (yes, even right up until yesterday)??? I just want to put a 'thank you' out there to Trey Gunn, who I'm sensing really seems to understand, like many other musicians/artists (with varying degrees of fame excluded), his basic relationship to the overall picture, which may or may not require questions or analysis, but whose ongoing evaluation of the Self transmits itself on every level whether or not Trey decides to offer these intimations to the public. In any case, it's important for all to acknowledge Music as including everyone and everything, and will persist with or without those KC enthusiasts who talk foolishly about music (of any kind) as if their heads are screwed on totally backwards. thank you for the music, Jonathan Sindelman Seattle, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:59:03 -0500 From: David Vella Subject: GIG REVIEW: Boston 12/8/01 John Paul Jones and King Crimson at the Orpheum in Boston, MA on December 8, 2001 John Paul Jones - Mixed emotions. On the one hand, I always thought JPJ would be an interesting opening act for Crimson. On the other hand, I was a bit disappointed with Zooma, and had read a number of reviews of other dates on this tour which complained of 'muddy sound' among other problems. So I was very pleasantly surprised by the one-hour set. He opened with the title track from Zooma, which did seem a bit muddy. But by the second song the sound was much cleaner. He played more from Zooma as well as a couple from his upcoming release 'Thunderthief'. Based on what I heard, I'm going to like Thunderthief a lot more than I liked Zooma. I did have some trouble hearing JPJ speaking between the songs, so I missed a lot of the song titles. But one number which was really fun was 'The Freedom Song', which was just JPJ on electric ukulele (?) or some other sort of mini-guitar. All three were in fine form - the drummer reminded me a lot of the Zep drummer Bonham, but some of Nick Beggs' stage antics (exaggerated head shaking and the like) were very annoying. Of course, they did a few Zeppelin numbers - I noticed 'That's the Way', 'When the Levee Breaks' and 'Black Dog'. In between a couple of songs, they started playing 'Heartbreaker', but it only lasted a few seconds. What a tease. For me, the highlights were, in addition to 'The Freedom Song', the first track from Thunderthief they played (I missed the title), and 'When the Levee Breaks'. Yes, 'Black Dog' was good, too, but overall I believe they gave a very polished and convincing rendition of 'Levee' - for me the most satisfying track of the show. Before I go on to KC's set, let me just say that in both acts the sound quality was more than excellent. Not only was JPJ's show not plagued by muddy sound, but in general, the mix was very good - you could hear all the players, it was not at all too loud (I brought ear plugs, but didn't use them - of course, I was halfway up in the balcony, so I might have used them if I were closer), and there was absolutely no distortion at all. Same was true for Crimson. I can't say if the reason for this is that the bands are both quite experienced at this late point of their tour, or if credit is due to whoever is in the sound booth, or if the acoustics of the Orpheum theater are just plain perfect, or if I just happened to have good seats (balcony row L, front and slightly left of center, between Trey and Adrian (with Fripp off to the right and Pat behind and between Trey & Adrian.) Or maybe a blend of all these reasons. Some friends who have attended shows at the Orpheum regularly suggest the acoustics are always good there. [On the other hand, I just read some reviews of the show in the ET edition 911, where some people DID complain of muddy sound and distortion, so I now suspect WHERE you sit has a lot to do with it.] Whatever the reason, the sound was great for both acts, at least from where I was sitting. I do hope it was recorded - it would make an excellent Collector's Club release. As for the actual set list for King Crimson, here it is, as near as I can make it out: 1. Dangerous Curves 2. Frying Pan 3. Electrik 4. The ConstruKction of Light 5. Dinosaur 6. VROOOM 7. Coda: Marine 475 8. Virtuous Circle 9. Larks Tongues in Aspic, Part IV (with instrumental coda) First encore: 10. Deception of the Thrush 11. Level 5 Second encore: 12. Red The jury (in my mind) is still out on Dangerous Curves. It seemed like a lackluster way to open a highly anticipated show, following an energetic performance by JPJ. Also, the mix needed adjusting - Trey was too low at first. However, by the second song, all sound problems had been resolved, and the band quickly improved. Frying Pan seemed to complete the transition from a somewhat tenuous start to a tight, exciting performance by the middle of the song. Then the real treats began - Electrik and TCoL were both fantastic. Dinosaur, VROOOM & Marine: 475 were also quite good, but less interesting (to me) than the new material. I would rather have heard FraKctured (since I missed it when illness prevented me from catching their last tour), or something older such as ToaPP or the Sheltering Sky. Speaking of older material - there were several idiots that were screaming "I Talk to the Wind" repeatedly - they even called for ITCOTKC at one point. Where have these people been for the past 20 or 30 years? Have these songs been performed at all after 1971? I tried to counter the negative effects of their diatribe by screaming at one point 'play whatever you want!' but I don't think I was heard over the din. Virtuous Circle (if that's what it was) seems to have evolved quite a bit from what's on the Level 5 EP, and was perhaps the most interesting and innovative track of the evening. Very interesting sonic textures, percussive accents, and also some bizarre sounds from Adrian on some sort of weird electronic hand-drum. I agree with a previous reviewer in ET #911 who called it a stand-out piece. LTIA part IV left me speechless. It earned an instant and well- deserved standing ovation. Absolutely jaw-dropping - I am at a complete loss to describe it, but its performance is the kind of thing I come to Crimson shows for. Best version of it I've heard. First encore - Thrush also has evolved quite a bit over the past couple of years. This rendition of it was also top-notch, despite the feedback from Adrian's guitar which was inadvertently left on when the band left the stage (Adrian, a.k.a. 'Quincy Braintree', of course did not return to the stage for this piece which was performed as a trio.) I believe that Trey was not at all distracted by the interruption - as soon as Ade's Axe was turned off, Trey launched into a sensitive and well-executed solo. Level 5 was another killer track. All the new material is quite good (with the possible exception of Dangerous Curves.) The second encore was Red. I love this tune, and knew it would be played. But I have heard it a number of times now, and wouldn't have complained if another track was substituted. All in all, a great show, better than the last performance I caught, which was the double trio in 1995 at the Paramount in Springfield, MA. My votes for the most memorable songs/best performances are: * ElectriK * TCoL and especially: * Virtuous Circle * LTiA 4 Three complaints I have: i) The seats at the Orpheum (at least in the balcony) were horribly uncomfortable - even painful - to sit in. Knees had to be tightly jammed into the backs of the seats in front of you, or else you had to sit forward on the seat with your legs knotted in below you in a way recalling the cover art of Discipline. I felt like I needed knee surgery after the show. Apparently, the Orpheum was built about 100,000 years ago when what passed for human beings back then were only four feet tall. ii) Why is it that so many people directly in front of me came late to the concert and had to spend so many minutes standing while settling down into their seats? Paying over $40 for a ticket, I want to see the band, not the backs of so many audients. It was somewhat better during the KC set, but still seemed like a lot of people milling around needlessly, and a disproportionate number of them right in front of me. This was even more annoying for me than listening to these people shout repeatedly for songs that had no chance of being played. And definitely more annoying than having stage lights directed towards the audience during the light show, which also decreased visibility of the band. iii) Given that KC (especially Adrian) were influenced by and are fans of the Beatles, and given that they have been known to cover the occasional Beatles tune (Free As a Bird, Tomorrow Never Knows Thela, etc.), and given the very recent passing of George Harrison, and given that Dec. 8 is the 21'st anniversary of the death of John Lennon, I think the band missed a great opportunity to give the Fab 4 a deferential nod of respect by playing a Beatles tune at the Boston show. For the record, my copy of the Level 5 EP is #2570. I also picked up the new Bears CD and the live CD by the Trey Gunn band at the merchandise table. I avoided the T-shirts, though. I'd rather spend the $ on CDs. Besides, the best KC T-shirt design is still the LTIA cover art on white (it's what I wore to the show.) Sorry for the length of this post, but I hadn't been to a KC show in 6 years. You can be sure I won't wait six more years. Cheers, David Vella PS: Quincy and Braintree are towns in Massachusetts outside of Boston, and they appear together on an exit sign off the highway. Adrian introduced himself as 'Quincy Braintree' probably because he saw that exit sign. I believe it is a joke he has used before in Boston dates. So to the poster who asked if it referred to Quincy Market, it doesn't explicitly, although the town Quincy and Quincy Market are likely to both be named after the same person. Any bets that this person is John Quincy Adams? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:20:48 -0500 (EST) From: david craig Subject: GIG REVIEW: Boston 12/8 [Comment] > The long and short of it is, King Crimson in this incarnation is done. I had to laugh when I read these posts. I'm not quite sure, but I expect that this exact same review has been written about every Crimson gig since the release of "In the Wake of Poseidon". For what it's worth, I thought the Boston show was sublime. I, too, have seen crimso many, many times by now, sometimes blown away, sometimes impressed but unmoved, sometimes, um... disappointed. This is the nature of live performance. These posters are equally entitled to their opinions - it was, after all, the show as *they* experienced it. To call the future of a band based on the failure to connect with it at one gig is nevertheless, in my opinion, rather silly. Anyone remember how the whole "set and setting" thing works? [That's a rhetorical question.] > Note to Robert Fripp: If you intend to put out a mediocre performance, > don't tour with an opening act that will blow your doors off.... > > JPJ was stunning. "Intend"? Huh. Let's not even go there. I, on the other hand, thought JPJ was mildly engaging. A pleasant snack. Quickly digested. Goes to show.... David Craig ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #914 ********************************