Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #912 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 912 Wednesday, 12 December 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Extra ticket for Philadelphia! Re: boredom alert .:..::...::: How Telepathic are you? :::...::..:. Third Way KC??? phish: the most well documented band ever Re: tony levin new songs: some order? Re: KC Tour shirts & CDs A band that Crimsonites should enjoy Phish and King Crimson Level 5 and Electrik Groupie ala 70's style..... >paunch and grey hair Court of the Crimson King Release Date New Stuff/Old Stuff in Setlist 12 YEARS OLD?!?! correction 2 things Re: Tony Levin Re: Attendance ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:33:13 US/Eastern From: bigtop at voicenet dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: Extra ticket for Philadelphia! My drummer is now too sick to go, so I have an extra 8th row ticket, Fripp side, for $46. You get to sit with me for free. Any takers, please contact me at bigtop at voicenet dot com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:00:48 -0600 From: "Michael Sheehan" Subject: Re: boredom alert Peter Badore writes: >>while this line-up features . . . a drummer making pathetic attempts to >>sound like his ex-partner What an insulting sac of pus this statement is. This is not a comment on the music or the performance but a qualitative judgment on the character of the musician in question. Pull the mud out of your ears, try dropping your "pathetic" projections or assumptions, or better yet, just MOVE ON. [ Take it easy, OK? Let's try and stay nice, folks. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:41:37 +0000 From: "E K" Subject: .:..::...::: How Telepathic are you? :::...::..:. Hello ETerz, The homing Beacon theater is calling, I'm due in on the 13th to be tranced with the rest of you, see ya there. Here's my new music compositions http://nicosintimatenotebook.com/music.html A hot chick: I thought you were a chick. EVK: Most hot chicks do. NEO: I thought you were a guy. Trinity: Most guy's do. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:43:37 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Third Way KC??? To Will: >And back to you, Mr. Mark: Your poetic subtleties never cease to amaze...If >I knew it were to degenerate to this I would never have started the thread >in the first place. Can we not simply boil it all down to the simple >fundamental that young, old, clean or wasted, we are all drawn together >toward the greater good, kinda like a disney movie huh? The thread didnt degenerate, it started out that way - after all, snarky intimations re: retirement homes are hardly hale-fellow-well-met, hm? And, clue, dubbing in a :) after a cheap shot doesnt much fool anyone, such as: >an yeah, shorter posts are better. :) Know what I mean? At any rate, yeah, you do seem like a nice enough cat, so if you wanna quit sniping, Im game.And yes, all that really matters is the music. *********************** Elsewhere: I thought Id draw something out a bit, somewhat taking off from this thread: what has been becoming apparent to me is a third route with KC. The more I listen to the newer studio stuff, the old studio LPs, and then the newer live releases, it becomes more and more apparent that the new live documents are an entirely different type of KC, containing a rhythmic cohesivity that is appreciably separate from the other two groupings, almost a hybrid of them with a new element thrown in. Im not sure how Id want to typify it, but each new re-listen only reconfirms this. Im curious if anyone else if getting this. If not, listen more closely to Absent Lovers, Heavy ConstruKction, and BBoom, etc. and I think it may begin to be seen. I suspect this new live voice may be the most authentic as versus the recent studio work, theres so much more a biological pulse to it, a transcendent and much heavier vitality. If no one else is in this manner, Im digging the unholy bejeezus out of it, cause, frankly, I havent been as knocked out by the studio KC as I used to be, a sentiment shared by some other fans. p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:21:03 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: phish: the most well documented band ever >I don't have a list of >the times they played it, but Phish fans are crazy enough that you could >probably find that somewhere on the web if you're so inclined. Try >www.phish.net for starters, I don't know. There is a new Phish book that covers EVERYTING anyone would ever want to know about phish.. i havent seen the KC book but after looking through the phish book (i forget what its called exactly) i imagine its ten times what that is.. considering the KC book i remember being only like 200 pages or something, maybe im wrong, and the phish book is like 1000. it has the story behind EVERY song, EVERY show, how long the songs were broken down by original parts of the song, teasers in the jam, the length of the jam, etc etc. its truely remarkable.. and kind scary that phish has been so accurately documented through their career. anyway, that should tell you everything you might wanna know about taht song, and every other. Phish comes out with the Phamers Almanac, and extremely detailed i guess fan zine which is basicallly mini issues of the huge book which give you details about everything they've done for that year or so. I dont know if anyone is a huge phish fan on this list, im not a HUGE fan, im not gonna buy the book, but i an a pretty big fan i guess. anyway the point is, check out that book and see what they did with it. im interested in hearing this song now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:36:11 EST From: TGwebinfo at cs dot com Subject: Re: tony levin >to: "Michael Destefano" >re: Subject: TONY LEVIN No doubt you will get quite a fire up your backside for this extreme post. But just in case you don't, I feel obliged to be the first to strike the match. You are so, absolutely, clueless about playing music. Any musician who makes it their primary aim to 'not make mistakes' is screwed up, down, sideways and backwards. This is the exact strategy that kills the life inside a performance. "alot of my pleasure comes from seeing how many times mistakes occur. The less mistakes, the more enjoyable the performance is, especially on the tough parts." You are possibly a very confused man. And perhaps, music isn't really for you. Have you ever considered enthusiastic pursuits in the aesthetics of cosmetic dentistry? "If sports can be discussed on all different levels(including all the time spent on problems/weakness) then why shouldn't live endevours be given the same treatment." Because sports is measured in the world of quantities -- speed, and distance. Music is not. Nothing about Music is measurable. To listen to Music through your ears must be agony. "Anyway I for one am happy Levin is somewhere far away from kc........" All I can add to your drival is this: you have ne'er an organ in your body for percieving anything about the talent of Tony Levin. Tony's 'feel' is utterly unique and unquestionably powerful. But then you don't know what 'feel' is, so this part of the discussion can go no further. Sure he may play out of time on occasion. We all do. And you, obviously, either: 1. have not a seen a King Crimson concert in the last two years, or 2. you have no way of percieving what is 'in time or not.' Because this Crimson is far from flawless in our rhythmic delivery. In fact, some nights we plain suck at keeping it together. And we're tighter then any other Crimson, that has ever been. And a bigger question that you lack the perceptions to even ask is: what does good time mean? You, for one, don't have the answer. Trey Gunn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:31:39 +0100 From: Dario Tortora Subject: new songs: some order? Dear Krimfolk, being a poor european that have had the last opportunity to see the Krim live in action back in 2000, can someone please make some light on the new songs that, since then, have been performed live? I think that there are some songs that were performed in 2000 and then dropped, and also some others that changed their name on the way. Looking back to the 2000 tour of USA (post-Heavy KonstruKCtion) I have seen on the various reports: Cyriel Response To Stimuli EleKctric Level Five Virtuous Circle Dangerous Curves Krimson Blue An improv with Ade playing keyboards... That would make up an entire album! Can anybody help? -- - Mac OS for productivity. UNIX for stability. Palm OS for mobility. Windows for solitaire. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 2001 18:10:45 -0000 From: "Andy Dean" Subject: Re: KC Tour shirts & CDs To the person inquiring (and any others interested) about the cost/design of shirts & CDs on the Level 5 tour: The shirts have the "Nuovo Metal" design on them; the PJ Crook painting with the two guys with the gas masks. I believe they're $25 and come in black or gray. As for the CDs, I think all of the single CDs are $15--I'm not sure what they're selling VROOOM VROOOM & Heavy ConstruKction for. By the way: all the merchandise on the tour is cash only. Like a chump, I came armed only with my credit card and am consequently Level 5-less. Guess I'll have to scratch & claw for a copy from DGM like everyone else. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:53:34 +0100 From: "Thomas Olsson" Subject: A band that Crimsonites should enjoy Dear Crimsonites, Those of you who find the time to listen to other sounds than the intensely red colours of KC coould do a lot worse than check out Isildurs Bane. IB are a rare thing these days, a band that started out as a progressive band 25 years ago, but have since continued to progress - unlike several so called prog acts - and constantly question what they are doing. Check out their website (www.isildursbane.se), where you can listen to stuff from all of their recorded output. Got to go. Thomas. Hamta MSN Explorer kostnadsfritt pa http://explorer.msn.se ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:05:18 -0600 From: Stephen Merola Subject: Phish and King Crimson Hopefully this will settle all of the Phish and King Crimson questions. The last time that Phish played this discipline sounding song was a while ago. They called it Dave's Energy Guide. And The last ime they played it was at Nectar's in Burlington Vermont on 4-29- 87. Thanks. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:26:44 -0700 From: "Guido Vacano" Subject: Level 5 and Electrik Jordan Clifford wrote: >>I was not able to attend the recent shows, does antone know where I can get >>a copy of the Level 5 CD. >DGM web will be selling them for a limited time after the tour ends, and it >ends on the 14th i believe (unfortunately). at least thats what i read on >DGM web. >Its a GREAT cd. unfortunately they didnt put Electrik on there.. that was >one Incredible song! Agreed. I was at the Denver show, and this song was fantastic. IMHO, I think (at the moment) that it may be the best thing they've done since 1974. :-) It has more of a "start-middle-end" construction to it that is lacking, or not as clear, in the other new instrumentals. >15 dollars for an EP is pretty hefty in my opinion.. but what can you do? I agree, although it is a fairly long EP, and a damn good one. > i >could have downloaded it (i have a site you can get it off if anyone is >desperate and cant buy it or burn it from someone.. there is also some kind >of new bootleg called the Dangerous Curves Bootleg.. from the one song i >downloaded its not great quality but it has songs on it that L5 doesnt >have.. anyway..), but i like the cover and its a nice piece of limited >edition memorabilia... plus its hand numbered, how cute. It's a pity KC won't make any money off the download or the bootleg. > it wont be hand >numbered off the website i dont think though. oh well Who knows? However, it seems a bit crass to bill the thing as available at the shows only, and then sell it on DGM. Guido N. Vacano, Ph.D. Research Associate/Webmaster Eleanor Roosevelt Institute http://eri.uchsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:33:14 -0500 From: "Caruso, Josette" Subject: Groupie ala 70's style..... It's very obvious that these light hearted "girly" posts of mine are out of sync with the vast majority of serious analysis and comparisons of former Vs current lineups of musicians by the 99% male audience that I've seen at shows who post here! Yeah, I'm a Groupie from the 70's...a time long ago, when after every gig, more fun was going on back at the hotel then you could ever imagine! The bands couldn't wait to get off the stage! Cocktails,dancing,flirting,laughter and plenty of sex was waiting for them after the show...just for the "fun" of it! It wasn't about love, it was a about "being with," enjoying the moment with someone very interesting. I can honestly say I never had a bad time...oh, there were a few heated verbal disagreements with Jeff Beck, and I admit I was abandoned in Detroit, while on tour with Alice Cooper's band.But, Simon Kirke of Bad Company consoled me nicely over Jeff, and Steve Marriott took me on tour with Humble Pie when Neal Smith dumped me, so all was well that ended well! Am I "broadcasting" my past? Yeah, I'm writing a book...and you're in it! I had such a wonderful time that I would have been thrilled had my daughter become involved in a relationship with a certain musician....is that so bad? Am I "losing my marbles?" I don't think so....Am I stuck in my own "Rock n Roll Universe? Maybe, but it certainly is a fun place to be.....hun. xoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:44:43 From: "Spear man" Subject: >paunch and grey hair >and there SURE is a lot more paunch and grey hair than there used to be >. . . *grin* hmm, reminds me of the berkeley greek 1996 show where someone--realizing the age of so many of the audients walking up the hill toward the venue--remarked: "who's playing? the beatles?" --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:18:22 -0600 From: "Robert Lux" Subject: Court of the Crimson King Release Date Release date for IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING is usually stated as 10/10/1969. On Robert Fripp' notes on the 30th Anniversary Edition CD, the date is identified as 10/12/1969. A misprint on the CD? I know this is anal, but my brothers birthday is 10/12 & he is a HUGE fan. thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:19:51 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: New Stuff/Old Stuff in Setlist >I think if they can >play Red they can play every song off Red, and for that mater ever 70s >song.. but thats not their style right now, they picked Red i think because >its so heavy and closely related ot a lot of the newer material. Right on, they COULD play everything and ANYTHING off of the 70's and 80's albums with the Double Trio-and pull it off with style, might I add. Their style right now? It seems to me they don't HAVE a style right now...It's all new stuff...new stuff...blah. Like they're testing the waters. I love everything they have ever done, believe me, and if you stuck KC tickets in my face I'd take 'em in a heartbeat, but I just want MORE than the last album. I'd be VERY excited to hear the Level 5 stuff-it sounds so interesting! I can't wait for the new album! ...but...seriously...usually when bands only play their latest stuff, they get a horrid response from the audience. Lucky for KC, this is not the case...but I'm sure there are many who would like to hear 70's and 80's stuff...Obscure stuff would be nice, too. If they played all new stuff but played 4 songs from the 70's, I'd be ecstatic. I just am feeling let down, because I was expecting older stuff and it's all new and most of it I've never heard before...::sigh::...I need Starless... ---Mike "My only comfort is in death. My only solice: My dying breath. For release I have prayed. Thrown past life...not afraid..." -Iced Earth, "My Own Savior" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:31:07 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: 12 YEARS OLD?!?! To Mike / Kissman24: Whoa!!! Waitaminnit...youre 12 YEARS OLD?!?!?! Geez, you had me completely fooled! Congratulations on your unusual maturation. On the other hand, now the Kiss fixation is explained. You certainly write like youre MUCH older, hence my presumption. Your parents must be unsually hip and intelligent. I dont know as I would agree with your assessment of KC as being much bluesier back then. Remember, one of the chiefest intents of psychedelic and prog musics was to get away from blues and chromaticism. What you identify as blues is, instead, lamentive. There are lament musics all over the world, in every culture. Here in America, we call all lament musics blues, sometimes wrongly, because the blues have had such an unusually strong impact and because they predominate our lament musics. However, in the case of Earthbound, a case for bluesy jazz can be made. I wouldnt particularly agree with it (theres far too much toughness in the tunes for that, to my mind, though theres no lack of tough blues in the genre, and the fusion element is too strong to fit blues properly in) but Im not sure Id want to argue against it either. I agree with your tastes, as Ive said before, and find it startling to discover them in one so young. Too, from what Im hearing, the noise levels at some of these gigs are near-intolerable - you may want to watch out for your hearing. I used to see Deep Purple (who hold the world record as the loudest band ever) and all the heavies (Iron Butterfly, etc.) and LOVED the volume, but even then my ears would ring for days. Now, I wouldnt want to hazard the experience and have given up concert hall music, settling for small venues and quieter levels. After over 30 years of concert-going, my ears are now a bit fragile and too precious to abuse, so I've modified my behaviour. By that, then, you can see that I cant help you re: the Level 5 CDs nor the show merchandise. I havent gone to the shows and wont be. Im sure other ETers will be more than happy to fill you in. Out of curiosity, what other prog groups do you like? 12 years old...man, its gonna take a while to digest that! -Mark Tucker- (by the way, Mike, in case you read prog mags, I go by the byline of Marc Tucker, a small change for my artistic work, so if you see reviews with that name, its me) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:39:47 -0500 From: "pierre guertin" Subject: correction John Trevethan writes: "I have set up a station page called "The Crimson Court" on MP3.com which features King Crimson alumni and music. It is at: http://www.mp3.com/stations/crimson_court " It seems that that's wrong. The correct adress is http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/251/the_crimson_court.html Netscape Navigator led me automaticaly to it, Internet Explorer did not. BTW, nice selection but it can be way more expanded. Some of the groups/artists posted already have their own page on MP3.com (maybe all of them) and some with more than that one selection posted on that KC alumni page. QV. BPM&M has posted 2 traks not included on their CD. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:09:12 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: 2 things 1 - Was I the only one to notice that JPJ's stick player was the guy from Kaja GooGoo? 2 - $15.00 wasn't expensive for the tour "EP." The EP is over 45 min long - easily as long as many full releases! John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:23:19 -0500 From: "DR" Subject: Re: Tony Levin In : "Elephant Talk" 611 Michael Destefano wrote : > One thing that really annoys me is the constant praise Tony Levin > receives! In my opionion while Mr. Levin is a very good all round bass > player-he is not an artistic force. Hmm, I guess a fiery but short-lived debate will start on this one. OK here's my opinion, for what it's worth... As a bass player myself, I don't really care about TL's technical ability, but his sense of 'the groove' amazes me. IMHO this 'sense' is the fundamental quality a bass player must posess in order to bring life into music (or music to life). Listening to Absent Lover should convince anyone that this man is a Master Groover. If still skeptical try his input on Projects One and Four. His bass lines are not really demanding technically, but to be able to come up with those powerful lines song after song deserves my deepest admiration. Denis R Quebec City, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:46:36 -0600 From: "Loren Claypool" Subject: Re: Attendance Regarding "LEAVE your partners and children at home Taste is acquired, not indoctrinated" From: JasJohns22 at aol dot com Aw, come on now. I've taken my 15 year old son to see KC three times in the last 18 months - 'cause he wanted to go. He loves Crim, listens to the entire catalog and would be heartbroken to miss a show. He's a drummer, a huge Bruf fan, and a huge Pat fan. My 13 year old daughter went with us the last time, as well - 'cause she wanted to go. She's a pianist/synthesist and a huge Ade fan - more of a 90s KC stuff fan. My wife thought, heck, if the rest are going, I'll go, too. JPJ blew her away. We had a great dinner and enjoyed wonderful front and center seats - a great family outing. Everyone had a great time. Any my kids sure acted a heckuva lot more mature than the idiot in Chicago who waved his hat like he was ridin' in a rodeo. The kids love to go to shows in general. They've seen everything from Steely Dan to Earthworks, Ted Nugent to Planet X, G3 to Leo Kottke, Dave Matthews to Junior Brown. I take them because they ask me to. I wish my Dad would have shared my teenage music experiences with me. Your insinuation that taking children to a show is "indoctrination" is absurd. Read the other posts about kids and by kids who have been to shows on the last tour. We should take our children to symphonies, jazz concerts, rock shows, etc. If you don't have children this is probably hard to understand. If you do have children and exclude them from this part of your life, that is even harder to understand. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #912 ********************************