Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #910 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 910 Monday, 10 December 2001 Today's Topics: Re: May it rest in peace. Remarkably presumptious assumption... Re: Phish and KC Oysters, Phish, and Frogs King Crimson Groupies! Minus: a band KC fans might enjoy Phish and King Crimson Correction to Trey Gunn's diary An Act of Kindness by Mr. Fripp Re: 'Vrooom Vrooom' troubles Mike / Dave / KC / Buddha...good combination! GIG REVIEW: KC in Buffalo - 12/4/01; BOREDOM ALERT!!! GIG REVIEW: Boston show GIG REVIEW: A day in the life of an enthusiastic audient ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:24:35 +1100 (EST) From: Will Dayble Subject: Re: May it rest in peace. First off.. Dwane Byrne - thanks for that, I keep forgetting the ppl on here aren't down with the Aussie slang, which is probably a good thing. :) And back to you, Mr. Mark: you say: "I've found many more straight intellectuals who got on hell of a lot more out of just opening up into prog music than I have with stoners and their rigid egocentric venalities, bellowing and stomping in the concert halls, at home, at parties...and in print." Your poetic subtleties never cease to amaze... If I knew it were to degenerate to this I would never have started the thread in the first place. Can we not simply boil it all down to the simple fundamental that young, old, clean or wasted, we are all drawn together toward the greater good, kinda like a disney movie huh? an yeah, shorter posts are better. :) btw, since my prev post, I've introduced another bunch to the KC, starting with FraKctured... The technicality of that piece hit them like a big musical brick wall, and they love it. That's my vote. Let's hope this argument dies here... Happy musicin! - Free CDs for thousands of Priority Shoppers! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 07:01:56 -0500 From: wjhl18 at juno dot com Subject: Remarkably presumptious assumption... That is a remarkable presumptuous assumption. I think he dropped the singing of the lyrics in the coda quite some time before Harrison died. How was I to know this? GH died the day before this performance, and with the lyrics "Lady Di and Lennon died" smack dab in the middle of that song, I don't think my statement presumptious at all... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:15:51 -0500 From: "Moses" Subject: Re: Phish and KC >>They had tons of bootlegs. One day we were >>listening to a boot, and during an improve jam they went into the song >>"Discipline". It wasn't exact, but it was definitely that, no doubt. >>Unfortunately, I can't remember which show this was, but I asked my buddies >>what the song was called and they came up with some different name. The song is called Dave's Energy Guide. Trey co-wrote it with his friend Dave. Yes, it is heavily Discipline-era KC influenced and is often mistaken as a Discipline cover. This seems to be precisely the reason the band stopped playing it - I think the last time was in the late 80's. They are capable of making more original-sounding songs. I don't have a list of the times they played it, but Phish fans are crazy enough that you could probably find that somewhere on the web if you're so inclined. Try www.phish.net for starters, I don't know. np: Schleigho 12/07/2001 - a (taper-friendly) prog-jazz band. Check them out. Be well, Moses http://cellardwellers.home.attbi.com http://schleigho.home.attbi.com http://db.etree.org/moses ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:55:00 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Oysters, Phish, and Frogs In ET #907, oliass at cs dot com writes of his old college buddies having a bootleg of Phish playing "Discipline." I can confirm that I have indeed heard such a thing exists, although I do not have it in my possession. In a recent interview in Relix Magazine (Aug-Sept 2001), Trey Anastasio, much-lauded Phish guitarist, mentions Lark's Toungues in Aspic as having been an influential album. Wish I could quote it exactly, but I threw the thing out. Trey (of whom, I feel compelled to add, I am not a fan) is currently playing in Oysterhead, a trio featuring Les Claypool of Primus and Steward Copeland of the Police. Claypool has, as most ET-ers have already no doubt heard, made Thela Hun Ginjeet a regular opening number, and it kicks off one of the two live albums his Flying Frog Brigade put out this year. (The other one is a song-for-song recreation of Pink Floyd's Animals album.) It is possiblle that the reference to LTIA was in reference to common influential albums among the Oysterheads. --josh-- NYC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:26:20 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: King Crimson Groupies! I can't believe there aren't any other girls who post her that drool over these cuties! Back in the 70's Fripp was one of the most sought after muscians by the elite group of girls who just wanted to have a bit of fun after the show...... xoxoxoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:39:02 -0800 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: Minus: a band KC fans might enjoy Greetings ETers. I'd like to call your attention to a band I think would appeal to many who enjoy KC and similar music. They're called Minus and are from Oregon; bassist/ keyboardist Dave Trenkel and guitarist Mark France are well known in this part of the state for their involvement with many jazz, experimental, and "progressive" projects, and drummer Henry Franzoni was a founding member of Portland's Caveman Shoestore (which once collaborated w/ Hugh Hopper--but that's another story). All 3 are extremely talented players. Minus is all-instrumental and shares with KC a penchant for dark, heavy textures and fleet-fingered excursions in odd time signatures. The first, self-titled CD is 100% improvised and has more of an industrial/ dark ambient feel to it (lots of menacing atmospheric stuff); the newest "Dark Lit" features more composed material and covers a range of styles from crushing riff-heavy prog metal to dub to quasi-funk/ fusion. Though more structured than the earlier pure improvs, the tunes are by no means static: it's not unusual for a 5-minute piece to evolve through several changes of tempo, dynamics, and texture. Their CDs are carried by Wayside record distributors, or can be ordered directly from their label, New & Improv Music. Email is newimprov at aol dot com . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 13:46:06 -0600 From: Stephen Merola Subject: Phish and King Crimson This is in response to the "Phish and KC" post. I am both a huge fan of the bands Phish and King Crimson. I have read in many books about Phish and heard in some live interviews that Trey Anastasio considers Robert Fripp one of his biggest guitar influences. I wish i could give you the names of some of these books, but i do not have them in front of me. I just thought that this info would help. Thanks, Steve P.S. I have not heard this show but if you could find the date of the show I am sure that i could get a hold of it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:37:05 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: Correction to Trey Gunn's diary Let me just make a slight correction to Trey Gunn's 6th of December diary entry. He writes about the Montreal show: "It takes me back to the last KC gig here in Montreal and to the ProjeKCt Two gig here. Each time there was a seated audience." I was there both times. It was both times at the Metropolis theatre, a mostly standing room only venue. Trey, KC's beau, said he's tired. Musicians see so many places that it's excusable that their memory of places get mixed up a bit sometimes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:23:10 -0500 From: "Mark V. Mazur" Subject: An Act of Kindness by Mr. Fripp Greetings ET'ers, As a long time ET reader & KC fan, I thought I would share something that happened at the KC show in Buffalo on 12/04. I attended the show with my good friend Cindy and her two sons, Elijah & Alex, who are 16 & 12 yrs. old, respectively. While both boys love KC, Alex absolutely idolizes Robert Fripp. He has all his cd's and videos and talks about him constantly, like most his age would about Harry Potter or Britney. So when I was able to get us front row seats for the 12/04 show, the anticipation of seeing his hero from up close was building for weeks. So shortly before JPJ came on stage, imagine our surprise when Robert Fripp himself walked up to young Alex and shook his hand! Alex was absolutely speechless! Robert asked him if he'd ever been to a rock concert before and when Alex replied no, he advised him that he might want to wear some ear protection, and then Robert wished him well and exited backstage. After the great performance by KC, Robert waved to Alex, and after the band left the stage, one of the roadies tossed a couple of Pat's sticks to Alex, which made a nice souvenir to his special night. Alex later commented that he had so much he wanted to say to Robert, but the words just wouldn't come out. Indeed, he took us all by surprise by walking right up to us while we were in our seats. I don't know if Mr. Fripp will see this or not, but I would like to personally thank him for making a young boy's first exposure to KC an extremely memorable one. That night will live on in Alex's memory for many years to come. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:24:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Douglas Subject: Re: 'Vrooom Vrooom' troubles > Re: Vrooom Vrooom troubles This just happened to me, too, and I purchased mine from a local indie record shop. Sounds like a manufacturing defect to me. Great. Guess I'll cross my fingers on the replacement copy I'm waiting on... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 13:31:33 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Mike / Dave / KC / Buddha...good combination! Mike / Kissman 24 said: >I dunno about you guys, but I though Boz was the coolest KC lead singer. I >LOVE the vocals on Ladies Of The Road from Cirkus...It's what makes me love >Boz. And I love that attitude he injected into the songs, like on the >version of 21st Century Schizoid Man from Cirkus. Give those tunes another >listen...You'll see what I'm talkin' about. Mike: the Groon Configuration of KC was always one of the most intriguing. Earthbound is a VASTLY underappreciated release. To my mind, it was amongst the most maverick takes on fusion that still held hard to bop and post-bop. However, since you are so enamored of Boz & cohorts, I have a very pleasant surprise, one not very well known: after Groon, KC (minus Fripp) moved over to play as a backing band for english blueser, and one of the true godfathers of modern rock, Alexis Korner. With him, they were known as Snape (the release, Accidentally Born in New Orleans, was credited to Alexis Korner And Snape) and was composed of Boz (who plays bass and sings, though Korners the main singer), Mel Collins and Ian Wallace. The record is indeed blues but with the jazz inflection youd expect Collins to bring to it. >Why aren't they playing older stuff? As much as I wanna see them, I don't >wanna hear all this new material...I want Starless and A Man A City! Why >only the newer stuff? Why not One More Red Nightmare? No Moonchild? I suspect youre one of what is most gently referred to here as The Older KC Fans (which is descriptive enough, but unfortunately a subtle flag to the odd age crossfire seen too often in ET) (I never ever thought Id see such a generational schism within a fan base of KCs - after all, the KC guys are well past 50 and, back in the 70s, when I was in my 20s, KC fans were overjoyed when we found amongst us jazz fans and other older guys who dug Crimson; I still dont understand where age makes any difference in anything where arts concerned), but I agree with you: the new stuff is very good but the old stuff is far better. Granted that the different Ages Of Crimson cannot really be compared, but only appreciated, within that appreciation there are still degrees of magnitude, and I find that, as much as I like almost all Crimson (with Sleepless being, in my estimation, their weakest), I find myself most constantly listening to all lps from ITCOTCK to USA. I also suspect that we have to credit the problem of what playing the same thing all the damn time must mean to the musician. Think about this: as a musician, how may thousands of repetitions of Red would it take before you got a little sick of playing it? How many would it take before you got a LOT sick of it? I hear this from musicians all the time and have to sympathize with it. Especially, now, given the unusually complicated nature of much of Crimsons post-USA gamelon-sound, Id imagine especially Fripp (whos the only one in the many incarnations whos had to play EVERYTHING from Day One) welcomes the challenge and refreshment that new repertoire brings. Probably, we can only wistfully hope that Robert one day will want to revisit the older stuff with renewed interest, but I suspect that will not be (until, say, he may want to do a Stever Hackett type reprise of yester glories, perhaps even a tour, just for the hell and nostalgia of it); he is, after all, along with Frank Zappa, one of rocks most idiosyncratic personalities, with an intelligence that bids him often follow things that are fully understandable only to he alone. Myself, I see him as one of the greatest 20th century music figures regardless of genre, and far more influential than most will credit. His effect on most musicians, and thus: most listeners, is second- and third-hand; that is: many musicians hear other musicians inflenced by him and are infleneced by that. His erstwhile partner Eno is just the same, with, I suspect, even larger influence (after all, NO ONE does what Eno does, even now - he has many admirable successors, like Jeff Greinke, but none are as whole-cloth original, nor as deep, as he. On Land, for instance, has yet to be approached, let alone equalled, despite many many many tries by many many MANY musicians). As a final note, though, one of the keys to KCs now being able to revive the old stuff would be Belews flexible and expressive singing. He could tackle both Moonchild and One More Red Nightmare with equal ease. ******************* Dave Sage: dude, you have no idea how much I needed to read that great poem by the Buddha. Ive been reading the Dhammapada again (Eknath Easwaran translation this time) and your insertion of that quote fit in perfectly with a few thoughts and curiosities I was having, answering them nicely. Thanx! -Mark S. Tucker- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 03:04:22 -0500 From: "Peter Badore" Subject: GIG REVIEW: KC in Buffalo - 12/4/01; BOREDOM ALERT!!! The effects of Fripp law receive a highly negative response from an audience still contained in the foyer of the U of B's Center for Preforming Arts building as, one at a time, we endure a quick frisk from security members. Just minutes after it's begun, an announcement comes over the PA: "John Paul Jones will begin in just a few minutes." One line becomes two, then three, but does not speed up much. Comments behind me about inconsideration toward fans is perfectly understandable, especially when one has shelled nearly $50 for a ticket; dead threads be damned. Doesn't help when I drop my ticket and get hassled briefly, then need to stop in the men's room before I find my way in the auditorium. How fortunate, nevertheless, for reserved seating (seventh from front, Trey's side UNfortunately). I am very surprised, upon entering, to find a very prolific musician playing 8-string bass, steel guitar, mandolins, and - during one song - ukelele (no keyboards!). He wisely restrains from singing more than two or three numbers, more out of sheer joy than any illusions of professionalism. But it is as a musician where that professionalism lies: We tend to forget/not realize what a tremendous talent he has always been. His drummer emulates Bonzo (enormous bass & toms), but opts for a stick player, no doubt so the sound can traverse back & forth between guitar & bass, between both players, a very appealing move. The only slight drawback I felt was an overreliance on Zep tunes. One or two would have been enough. But I was pleased, overall. For those who recall my interest in equipment (ET #872), it goes without saying I approached the stage as closely as possible (not saying much) as Robert's racks were coming into view between sets. This time, if you're still keeping track, he has forsaken one of the GP-100s, Whammy pedal, and one of the Roland floor devices, switched compressor/limiters, and added another Eventide 3000 to his palette. So preoccupied was this nosy amateur that I failed to notice a not-too-tall gentleman dressed in black with light graying hair and round wireframes surveying all. In fact, we collided, which ends my second (and no doubt final) encounter with the man many now refer to as "The Frippster". (My first encounter was when he performed solo here in Rochester in June 1979, a nice 18th birthday present from a friend's sister who worked in the building. I did not meet him when KC performed in 1995, though I finally met Bill Bruford.) If the intention to start their set was to catch us unawares, they didn't fool me. Perhaps it's because, at times, I've learned to expect the unexpected with Crimson. That shouldn't equate, however, with unenjoyable. The main problem I had with the double trio was what I mentioned earlier: Overreliance on the past. That goes double for the Tony Levin band. The funny thing is, both those bands had better members, while this line-up features a touch guitarist with no punch in his basslines (listen to "VROOOM" & "Dinosaur" on HC, or recall them from the show) and a drummer making pathetic attempts to sound like his ex-partner, so much to the point where he loses the beat. That leaves two guitarists shimmering in their duets, and - best of all - the return of improvisation, not done in such quantity (if that word can be used) since the 1970s. Speaking of which, their only "oldie" performed was "Red", and I promise I won't add my two cents to what has been discussed already. I was disappointed with TCoL, but HC returned my optimism. It has remained, in spite of my nit-picking, though I will add another: Was it worth the price? Yes and no; Musically, it elicited a positive response from me, but I've seen many improv shows for free, and some of them were better than this. Regardless, if they ever do come to Rochester again, I'll be there, greenbacks in hand. But I love going to the city next door, which gives me the opportunity to dine at Mother's (great expensive food served 'til 3 or 4 in the morning) afterwards, although too tired to drive back the same night. Hotel nearby. The Buffalo Daily News does not review it. Peter Badore (KC fan & all-around snoot) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:05:50 EST From: Gtrman3811 at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: Boston show After much anticipation and patience, they finally made it to Boston. We were treated to a great night of music, almost more of a journey, and I don't believe anybody left disappointed, unless you were expecting more old stuff. JPJ started it off with a mix of Zeppelin; That's the Way, When the Levee Breaks, and encore of Black Dog (instrumental) plus some new ones off a forthcoming album...it was an interesting set, some drunk guys in front of me were clearly there for Jones (one of them passed out during half of KC's set), good thing because he was getting obnoxious. KC's set list: Dangerous Curves? Into the Frying Pan Electric Construction of Light Dinosaur Vroom Coda: Indian sounding song? Larks Tongue IV I Had a Dream (instrumental) Encore: Deception of the Thrush - some idiot kept yelling Talk to the Wind, and right at the beginning of the song yelled COTCK, forcing me to tell him to SHUT UP! I guess there's an asshole in every crowd, but in this crowd we had a few. Right before Trey's solo, feedback had been building, Adrian had left his guitar on; he slinkered out to turn it off, then Trey went off, giving a beautiful solo (very lyrical). Level 5 2nd Encore: Red My only disappoints came when I saw the back of the balcony was empty, and lack of press the show received from the Boston press (a small mention in the Globe). I figured this show would have sold out, the fact that the last time the played Boston, they did two shows at Berklee. This tour definitely represents a turning point in the band -- nothing off of the trio of recordings (in the 80's). The Thrack tour was the turning over of the torch, last year was the weaning out period, and this tour has found it's own voice, which might turn off some of the older fans with a smaller number of vocal songs. I'm ready for Level 6!!! Regards, Mike Campiglio ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:47:46 -0500 From: "Michael Broadman" Subject: GIG REVIEW: A day in the life of an enthusiastic audient Saturday, December 8, Boston: I eagerly skip on out of the house to see my favorite band in the world perform. Lo and behold, traffic hits hard, I get lost (as a newcomer to Boston, I simply cannot understand how people find their way around this God-forsaken city), and finding my way out of the parking lot was an adventure in and of itself. By the time I get there, John Paul Jones is half-way through his set. I was almost as eager to see him as I was to see the great Crim, since I'm a huge Zeppelin fan and I love his solo album. Mix this in with my naturally short temper, and I was fuming mad by the time I entered the Orpheum theater. However, the anger was replaced with a grin as I heard Jones' band playing an instrumental version of Since I've Been Lovin' You. Jones proceeded to play When the Levee Breaks, a couple of tunes from his solo album, and some new stuff. It was bit difficult to hear the stick player during When the Levee Breaks, but other than that the sound was alright. It seems like his new stuff has some Celtic/Irish folk elements in it. So what did I see in Jones? I consumate musician who was truly enjoying his music. The guy was having a blast, and it made us have fun. He played his slide guitar, miniature-type guitar, and bass as if he was a child opening up a Christmas present. It's great to see a veteran road-warrior like hum make music this fresh and enjoyable. Intermission. My goal: buy a T-Shirt and the Level Five CD and use the men's room. That place was so crowded, it took a lot of pushing and shoving and lines to do any of it. When I finally maneuvered my way back to my seat, I was angry yet again. King Crimson takes the stage, playing what I later learned was called "Dangerous Curves." A cool way to start the show, and my anger gave way to interest. So, was all the frustration worth it? Hells yeah. Crimson blew the roof off a-that muthah. Highlights for me: New stuff- for the first time in my life, I went to see a rock band anticipating the new material more than the familiar. This was my first time hearing these pieces, and the reward was great. Electric: A pleasant little number involving some back and forth between Belew and Fripp. I have a feeling that this piece will be developed further before it is recorded. Level Five: This monster rocks. I think this was originally going to be called Larks Tongues part V. It has the same "spirit" as the earlier pieces, but it's very sinister, dark, and mean. It sounds the most "complete" of all the new songs. This piece was the best part of the show. Old stuff: Construcktion of Light: Possibly my favorite Crimson piece, they executed it with feeling, precision, and energy. Even Belew's vocal thing at the end was better than I've ever heard it. Amazing stuff. Lark's Tongues part IV: Man, did this shake the walls down. The boys really gave it everything they had. Stellar. Deception of the Thrush: best I've ever heard. My anger returned when, during the "build-up noise" part of the piece, a staff member bothered me and my neighbours about a camera. Quite annoying when I was so focused on the performance. The "quiet melody" part was achingly beautiful, and was a welcome contrast to the clanging and noise of the preceeding pieces. I don't anyone moved me in a concert as much as Trey Gunn did during that piece. They also did fine renditions of Frying Pan, Dinosaur, and Red. Why do they do two encores? I don't get it. The encores are as long as the stuff before it. Why don't they just play their set straight? Oh well. Why do people yell things during the concert, like older song titles and band members' names? God, that ticks me off. Even worse is yelling during Deception of the Thrush. It just takes away from the energy and focus of the piece. People are idiots. As a relative newbie to Crim, I'm shocked that people have said that Belew isn't right for Crim. Not only is he "right," he is necessary. On the way home, I encountered more traffic, as well as slippery snow, but I could not get angry. Next week I'm taking my 15 year old sister to the New York show at the Beacon. She has never heard Crim, but expressed interest. I guess she was feeling brave. I hope she doesn't fall asleep or anything. I'll let you know. On the slim chance that any members of Crim are reading this, thank you. Thank you for allowing music to enter you, and, despite all the Elephant Talk and other nonsense, sharing it with us. All I can say is, keep on keepin' on. And I'll always be able to remember the concert thanks to the bootleg tapes I made and photographs I took (j/k). ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #910 ********************************