Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #908 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 908 Sunday, 9 December 2001 Today's Topics: Lesh - Crimso Connection VROOOM VROOOM problem? Have Another Hit... of Fresh Air Think again; omitting the lyrics to Coda GH&KC Connection Songs for introducing KCCClub 18 Review Re: Greensburg, PA review Phish and KC Introducing KC GIG REVIEW: Toronto Dec.5 - long GIG REVIEW: Toronto, Dec 5 GIG REVIEW: December 6, Montreal GIG REVIEW: Montreal gig revue ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:16:25 -0800 From: "Scott Salat" Subject: Lesh - Crimso Connection Just a note further to the recent posts comparing the merits of Phil Lesh's current Quintet and KC. Tony Levin sat in on bass for two songs at Gov't Mule's October 18 show in NYC (Gov't Mule is Warren Haynes's primary project although I find his work with Lesh equally, if not more, appealing). Tony will also be appearing on the Mule's The Deep End Vol.2, due out in the Spring. It was great to see him onstage again. Like I said, just a note. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:34:09 -0600 From: Steve Marshall Subject: VROOOM VROOOM problem? At 06:43 PM 12/6/01 +0000, Matt Tedesco wrote: >Either way, if you haven't picked up the set yet, I'd advise shopping from >somewhere *besides* cdnow. My copy is flawless - and sounds great. Amazon has it at the link below.. Also, we have a review online at The Night Owl in case you haven't seen a review yet... Steve http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q7G0/thenightowl Steve Marshall Editor - The Night Owl stevem at thenightowl dot com The best place on the web for music reviews Member - National Music Critics Association Check out the latest edition of Night Owl Radio - now online! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:02:04 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Have Another Hit... of Fresh Air Ken Makowsky's thoughtful post on drug use in ET #906 reminded me of something that Michael Harner, anthropologist and founder of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, said at a workshop I attended. He quoted a friend as saying, "I used to be into psychedelic drugs... until I discovered breathing." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:47:13 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Think again; omitting the lyrics to Coda >> >To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for them as an introduction to King Crimson? >> Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part 2 >Ummmm.... think again. No. The question was "what single track would *I* play for them", not "which one would *you* play for them". LTIA 2 bridges the gap between the earliest Crimson and the latest Crimson, in my opinion. It is a shame that you do not share my opinion. Go with God. >LTIA pt. 2 is one of my favourite Crimson tracks, but I've tried playing it for new friends to get them into Crimso - and the thing people notice most is that the song has "no structure" - which is true, really. Nope - it is not true. It has a structure, sort of a theme and variations or a head-solo-head, with room for a roaring Cross or Belew solo. >1 - lament 2 - great deceiver 3- ITCOTCK 4 - fracture An interesting list, but not the answer to your question. >Adrian gave a remarkable performance, this time omitting the lyrics to "Coda" out of respect, I presume, for the passing of George Harrison. That is a remarkable presumptuous assumption. I think he dropped the singing of the lyrics in the coda quite some time before Harrison died. RIP George, and thanks for everything. - S. np: Sarah Vaughan's Finest Hour scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:26:30 -0600 From: "Marjorie Pomeroy" Subject: GH&KC Connection How about Ian Wallace for the Harrison/Crimson connection? He played on the Wilbury's first album and was married to Jenny Boyd, the sister of Patti Boyd who was George's wife. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:45:46 +0500 From: Andrei Medvedev Subject: Songs for introducing The question: >To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for them >as an introduction to King Crimson? It depends on who you want to introduce to KC. You have to know his (her) music preferences, a taste. There are many different tracks in KC discography, and everybody would like one at least. This is why I think KC is universal group. For everybody and every time. I have a friend who I've introduced to KC by Starless. Another friend started to like this music with an improv track from Heavy Construction. Etc. Of cource I don't think this is some kind of mission but if you have something good ("good" isn't proper word I know) would you share it with your friends? It isn't so bad as somebody I know thinks. And I'm full of gratitude to that man who gave me some day cds with first KC albums. Thought my first expedition into that world was four yerars earlier when I've listened Robert Fripp's Soundscapes. But I didn't know then RF is KC member. I can't imagine what would be my musical taste if it hadn't happened. I'm 23 old. And the world around me sings different songs. thanks Andrei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:45:52 -0800 From: "Eric Heinitz" Subject: KCCClub 18 Review For any of you still on the fence, Club #18 should seal the deal. We all love the '69 stuff, and of course the '73-'74 period is the favorite of many, (and here I might add a request for a Club release from late 1981,) but this blast from the beginning of the US tour in 1971 may make a few converts, and cast the album versions of these songs into a whole new light. I actually had the privilege of seeing Mel Collins play with Camel in a college coffee house on the Breathless tour (1979?) and he was this multi-instrumental magic elf that just had me pinching myself. Andy Latimer, guitar slung to the side, joining Mel in a passage where they both played flutes, then back to oboe or sax for Mel, and back to some Snow Goose or other shredding guitar part for Andy. Twenty-five years and a thousand concerts later, that Camel show with Mel Collins, Andy Latimer, Richard Sinclair, Andy Ward, and Peter Bardens has never moved from my top ten all-time live music experiences. (It's hard to believe it from the KCCClub CD or cassette versions, but King Crimson at the Berkeley Greek in 1982 is on that list too.) Join the KClub and listen to this underappreciated era of the ongoing enigma that is King Crimson. --Eric Heinitz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:49:23 -0500 From: "Moses" Subject: Re: Greensburg, PA review Well, actually there was one (very forgivable) error in Stephen's review. I was in the front row, stage left, and I could see Mr. Fripp very well. He was right in front of me. During VROOOM, his rig decided to play games with him. He would hit the pedal at the right moment, but nothing changed in his sound. He and Adrian exchanged a look, Fripp looked over at his rig, and then shook his head. That's when the patch finally decided to change. Both times. I don't know enough about the equipment he was using to say exactly what happened, but I do know that during the break before the first encore a stagehand came out to 'reboot' his rig and after that I noticed no problems. Perhaps a MIDI malfunction? I don't know. Another interesting occurrence was that one of the people who went with me was a female who enjoyed herself (and the music!) immensely. Yeah, she's a special girl. I'd snatch her up for myself if she wasn't already spoken for. Like at the time at a Schleigho concert I overheard two young ladies walking by and commenting "Don't you just love songs in 7/8?" Perhaps not coincidentally, that show was also in Greensburg. Regards, Moses http://home.attbi.com/~cellardwellers http://home.attbi.com/~schleigho http://db.etree.org/moses ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:01:51 -0500 From: oliass at cs dot com Subject: Phish and KC >>I am by no means a Phish fan, but I have heard >>enough to realize that at some point, they must have heard at least SOME >>>>KC in their time. I used to be into Phish when I was in college, but some of my college buddies were way into them. They had tons of bootlegs. One day we were listening to a boot, and during an improve jam they went into the song "Discipline". It wasn't exact, but it was definitely that, no doubt. Unfortunately, I can't remember which show this was, but I asked my buddies what the song was called and they came up with some different name. I remembered being annoyed with my friends because they wouldn't get into KC, but as long as Phish was playing it, it was cool. Has anyone on the list heard this? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:14:38 -0500 From: oliass at cs dot com Subject: Introducing KC IMO, a good cd to turn people on to KC with is "The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson". This was what hooked me although I'd heard Discipline before that. I think "The Night Watch" is a very nice, short, and sweet example of the Wetton era stuff. Of course, the listener's personal taste would affect my choice. For one who's into heavier music I'd try Thrak, with HEADPHONES. The problem with KC is you have to sort of put something into it before you get anything out of it. In other words, it usually takes about 5 listens before anything starts to stick. It's hard to get a first timer to listen to something 5 times.-Roy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:39:10 -0500 From: "Christian Coulter" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Toronto Dec.5 - long King Crimson w/ John Paul Jones at Massey Hall in Toronto, Dec.5, 2001 Much better acoustics in this room than the previous King Crimson gig at the Warehouse here in Toronto (about a year ago I think). FLASHBACK-THE WAREHOUSE Last time I was standing in a crowd, relatively 15 rows in front of the stage - the concrete slab decor was somehwat dismal, but the band ROCKED to the extreme. Totally loved it. Even sent a review to ET. Robert Fripp was stone-faced and dashed-off stage after each set, totally ignoring the audience, assumedly upset by the flash photos. FORWARD TO DEC.5, 2001 I've got a seat this time, but it's very crammed. Not designed for someone over 5'10" and I'm quite a bit taller than that. Front balcony, it has a great overhead view. All right! Here we go! First - the John Paul Jones Orchestra Great band. I was extremely impressed. Full-on drums with plenty of Bonham snare rolls. Powerful, loud, tight. The stick player was sometimes smooth, sometimes dangerous. I love how this guy (and Trey, etc.) accentuate the bass notes by sliding all over - up and down the stick - giving that slippery and somehow spooky feel. JPJ - man, it looked like he was out to show both Page and Plant who can still rock the best. I saw Page and Plant a few years back and they were very good (somewhat to my surprise), but Jones is miles ahead, today, in terms of technique, variety, and musicality. There were many LedZep songs and themes, re-worked to almost perfection. Mandolin, ukelele, mini-guitar, and double lap-steel were his instruments which he seemed to change over after every song. Some really cool pitch-shifter effects and one of the best melodic digital-delay pieces I've heard since Another Brick in the Wall Pt.1 JPJ burning up Jimmy Page solos with the lap-steel was fan-frikkin-tastic. His new works are also interesting, reminiscent of latter day-Crimson and its offshoots. He has written a great new song - a ditty which he sings and plays the uke - at turns serious, romantic, and humourous - an exquisite little gem. All in all an excellent performance. Go see it. Okay - The King Crimson Gig Review There are three people on the stage. Or is that four? Hmmm. Maybe that guy sitting in the dark on stage with his back to the audience is the roadie. Maybe he's the sound guy. No...no...it looks like he's tuning a guitar. It's the guitar tech! The green lights on his rig seem to light up every time there's a sound - neat! And that was about all you saw of Fripp for the entire show. 3 watts of purple light barely illuminating the top of his head as he sat stage right facing left, I'm guessing 50 degrees TOWARD the drummer. Oh well, I didn't come here to actually see a great guitar player play his guitar, did I? I'll ignore him and watch the other guys. Flash, Flash, Flash................Flash, Flash Oh oh. Here we go again. The music was quite different this time around, YEA! This was King Crimson the jam band. Very few vocals - too bad. But very interesting change too. Very 'dark'. Each member was seperated from the other by gear and speakers. Very isolated. Very serious. Robert Fripp's opening is subdued - slowly, quietly building, very pretty, classic Fripp sound but with the latest high-tech sound-polish. Nice but still somwehow nasty. YES! Adrian says they're trying out a new song - I hear similarities to TOAPP as well as others. This and much of the concert features the type of "shared arpeggio" guitar interplay like that heard at the beginning of the album version of Frakcture. But the context in many cases is different. Many of the pieces played seemed either in-progress or extremely jammed-out in a way only a band of top-notch musicians can jam. An even then, no band sounds like this band. If I was after a song and hook heavy concert I would have been disappointed. But I'd experienced the perfect blend of that at the previous gig. This was the fascinating flip-side of the coin - extremely "ear-expanding". The musical themes were very broad much of the time, with great blends of Heavy drums, v-drums, truly scary Gunn playing, and that cool sounding machine with the green lights. It was like sitting in on a jam with a rock band from outer space. After the set Pat, Trey, and Adrian come to the front of the stage and smile and say thank you's and such, and the other fellow walks quickly to the back corner of the stage and stands in the dark. After the encore, he goes to the corner, waits about 10 seconds then quickly walks off, stage left. The three at the front are waving and walking towards stage right, then they stop and start looking around to see where the fourth is, can't see him anywhere, and they continue on to exit stage left. Set list is similar to those posted here in recent days, and I don't remember the precise order. WRAP-UP I preferred the previous gig because it had a great blend of song and jam - and more fierce playing by Gunn, Belew, and certainly Fripp. This gig, however, was somehow, I know how cheezy this sounds - "mind-blowing" in that the music and sounds were going to very strange and different places. Last gig Fripp was somewhat facing the audience. The back-turned-to-the-audience thing this time around was alienating, and seemed eccentric, if not rude and disrespectful to the entire audience. The quick stage exits seemed to disappoint the rest of the band at each show, as well. I daren't speculate further, being but a mere fool. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:09:45 -0500 From: "Greg Amann" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Toronto, Dec 5 >Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:37:49 -0500 >From: "Stephen T. Kilpatrick" >Subject: GIG REVIEW: Greensburg, PA, December 2, 2001 King Crimson and John Paul Jones Massey Hall, Tonoronto, Ontario, Canada December 5, 2001 After reading Steven Kilpatrick's review of the Greensburg show, there seemed little point in offering my views since the Toronto show was very similar to how he described the Greensburg show. One of the highest compliments an artist can receive is to be lauded for consistency. Crimson seems to be there. However, I can offer the perspective of someone who took the whole family: Dad (me)/41/3rd Crimson show+Saw Fripp at U of Waterloo in 80s. Mom/41/2nd Crimson show Son/10/2nd Crimson show Son/8/1st Crimson show The bullets of Steven's review were: - the KC crowd finds JPJ "boring", and the Zeppelin/JPJ crowd finds KC "too weird". I found that the JPJ fans were there to hear Zep tunes. I could not believe the number of Crimson fans that really expected to hear "ITCOTCK", "21st Century Psychotic Homme" or even one call for "I Talk To The Wind". Don't these people have internet? - the crowd itself was usually quite low key and respectful, absolutely silent except for enthusiastic applause between songs. The ages of the audience ranged from about five (I spotted at least three children under 10) to late 60s or possibly 70s, with quite a few college age folks as well. In fact the crowd (myself included) was so "respectful" that we were pretty much completely taken by surprise when Crimson walked off the stage after LTiA4. Were they finished? Is Robby pissed at us? We slowly realized that it would probably be a good idea to stand up and make some noise at this point. - "The John Paul Jones Orchestra" (8:00 - 9:00) set list pretty much identical. - King Crimson (9:30-10:55) Set list: (approximate order) Pre-show: taped Fripp soundscaping Dangerous Curves (from "Level Five" EP) The ConstruKction of Light (from "TCoL") Into The Frying Pan (from "TCoL") EleKctric (to be recorded for the next album) Theela Hun Ginjeet (from "Discipline") Dinosaur (from "Thrak") Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part IV / Instrumental Coda (from "TCoL") Encore 1: Virtuous Circle (from "Level Five" EP) The Deception Of The Thrush (from "Level Five" EP) Level Five (from "Level Five" EP) Encore 2: Red (from "Red") Some observations: I am a drummer and so I have very nice high-tech custom-made hearing protection. I did not need them. The sound was crisp and clean with no caffeine. However, I made sure that my children wore their hearing protection even if I felt that I didn't need mine. On the way to the show my 8 year old son (who plays soccer) asked me if Fripp was the "Captain" of King Crimson. I thought that was a pretty good way to sum it up. During the show: 8 year old: "Which one is Fripp?" 10 year old: "The one you can't see." I am not making this up. The 8 year old's favorite song is "Dinosaur" for obvious reasons, so it was pretty sweet that KC just happened to play it. 8 year old spent the concert sitting on the edge of his seat either peering intently at the band through binoculars or bum-dancing in his seat. I was unsure whether or not KC were going to come back for the final "Red" encore due to the wierd band/audience interaction mentioned above. By the time they did come back, 1/4 of the fans in our section had left. I started calling for "Red" (and pretty sure I'd get my way because I have internet) and cheered as Pat counted it off. Both sons were very happy to hear "Red", very happy to see their old man happy and they had the ascending theme in their heads for 2 days after the show. The Level 5 EP is a must have. Very nice. The tour Tshirt is a little on the grim side. The Massey Hall blurb on KC stated that "electronics have finally caught up with KC." That sounds about right. KC impressed me as being a "band", not a bunch of Fripp acolytes. This is a hot time in KC history. My advice is try not to miss it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:45:16 From: "alexis rondeau" Subject: GIG REVIEW: December 6, Montreal Well there it was, finally a double bill that wasn't a complete missmatch! It was my first time seeing JPJ but I was already familiar with his Zooma cd. It was my second KC show having seen them last year. I have aslo seen lots of double and triple bill that generally include one of those pand that play the exact kind of music thad I just can't stand... The venue (Place des Arts) was allright. Huge (3000) and kinda full ('though I'm not shure about the fourth floor!). Also a little to polite, I mean like a theatre that is suted fot the orchestra. The tickets were way overpriced (66$) but at least I had a great seat (second row on the far left - and you gotta be on the left if you intend to watch uncle Bob playing the guitar). I expected the JPJ band to be great but they were way better than that! The set list has been posted before. Lots of ingeniosity in this band. JPJ and the stick guy trading the low end and the high end trough out the show. Lots of humour to. Some heavy blues. Some folk. Lots of fun! Then Crimson. I wasn's as excited as last year, mainly because you can't be seeing KC for the first time of your lif every time you see them! But they were just as good. The sound was good except for the voice that was louder then everything else and sounded distorted. I especially enjoyed Dangerous Curves. The the setlist afterward was similar to what they've played before. No Elephant Talk but we got Dinosaur and Thela (WITH the voice over tape). There didn't seem to be any improv wich I would've liked. Nevermind. Can't always get what you want... As for merchandising, WE GOT SCREWED! I was hoping to get Xtracts & ArtefaKts plus The Trey Gun band cd. Well they sold out! There was nothing left (no t-shirt no Trey Gun...) except for Level FIve and the Bears cds. Hargh! :-( Alx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:36:41 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Montreal gig revue Hi there people. Saw the JPJ/KC show last night. At the risk of saying a cliche, let me tell you that... IT ROCKED!!!!!!!! The volume was loud throughout but worth it. I don't submit myself to this kind of ear damage more than once a year (or less), so it can't be all to bad. John-Paul Jones was great. Saw him last with Led Zepplin in Montreal in 1975. That was an awsome show, and long too (about 3 hours). Got lots of great pictures (slides) of that also since I was sitting 6th row on the floor and could get right up to the stage with my camera. In those days, one could do that, no problemo. He played some led zep as posted from earlyer show. Those were the ones that roused the place more than anything else. Black Dog was the best. With more time, JPJ's contribution to last night's show was worth the price of admission alone, I felt. At least, this was best show opener I've ever seen. His quilted stick man was a bit too strong on the posturing, but he palyed well his instrument. Intensly, that is. The Place des Arts is a multi venue complex. Last night's show was at the Salle Wilfird-Pelletier, the largest of the venues. It's a concert hall. It's where the Montreal Syphony Orchestra plays. That may seem like a kind of a cold place to play some rock but last night's music was so intense that it could melt an iceberg. The croud was roudy in an appropriate mesure. The place looked full, but probably not sold out. There must have been as many people the to see JPJ as there were there to see KC. Lots of old Led Zep fans. I'm one of theme, but I was there mainly for KC. I'll mention also as in a sidebar a funny note: this must be typical of all Crimso concerts: at the intermission, there was a long line of audients going to the men's room, but no line at all at the lady's room. The women seemd to find this a nice change for them. ;-) If King Crimson played not to long, the music was so intense I did'nt notice. They could have played only the first 15 minutes and I would have had my money's worth. It was that good. There music is in the quality, if not in the quantity. Yes, Adrian Belew did'nt sing all that much, but with the projeKcts, I've become accustomed to considering Crimso more as an instrumental band than anything else. Anyway, wasnt that always so? Got the Set List from roadies at the end of the show. Here it is: Dangerous Curves Into the Frying Pan Elekctric Level Five "Vector" (can that be Vector Shift to Planet... or Vector Patrol?) Dinosaur Virtuous Circle The ConstruKction of Light Lark's Toungues in Aspic Part 4 with Coda without vocals 1st pause Deception of the Thrush Thela Hun Ginjeet 2nd pause Red Dinosaur was a nice surprise as they did'nt play it on there last show here and I wanted to hear it live. I could never get used to hearing Red live. It's become there 70's signature piece. But other ones would be nice to hear, such as Talking Drum with Lark's Tongues Part 2. Why not play Parts 1 to 4 in a row if that would work (maybe not). In the end, during the standing ovation, I was showing the new Sid Smith book about the history of King Crimson with a thumb up and I believe I got eye contact with all of the musicians because of that. Being on the front row helped in that. I got a tumb up from AB. Robert Fripp, in the darkness in the back, in his usual charming self left the stage when I made eye contact with him (don't ever change Bob, you're unique to say the least). Pat Mastelloto was pointing right at me showing Trey Gunn I was holding the book and then, I believe inspered by this, gave his drum stikcs to the audiance before leaving for good. Great show. Great sound quality (no qualms). I'm sure that none of the Led Zep fans were disappointed by this show. Reccomended for all who like this type of music. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #908 ********************************