Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #907 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 907 Friday, 7 December 2001 Today's Topics: Re: KC initiation tracks, "VROOOM VROOOM" review for Mike, KCCC#3. Does Trey Play? Re: Greensburg, PA review Re: the beat club on ebay and others Album Cover Mind Fuck Single KC track Re: whinger? calling all musicians.... Level 5 CD How To Introduce KC Singing and silly lyrics KC In Australia & Israel EARPLUGS! pop culture vs mass culture pop culture v. mass culture redux lets get small Re: Vrooom Vrooom troubles GH & KC? Re: GIG REVIEW: Lakewood Civic Aud. GIG REVIEW: Greensburg Concert ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:08:34 -0600 From: "Trey Five Winds" Subject: Re: KC initiation tracks, "VROOOM VROOOM" review for Mike, KCCC#3. Good evening to all. I hope you are well. There was an interesting question posted on here an issue or so ago: To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for them as an introduction to King Crimson? God knows I have introduced nearly all of my friends to KC or they at least know what the hell this "strange sound" is whenever they're around me, so I have had the chance to test this question a few different ways. But, what I usually do, actually, is to play something from whatever KC's latest release is, and choose the track depending upon what I know their musical taste is. Sometimes, if I don't know their musical tastes, I ask them to pick a song title (QUITE a few people have been exposed -- willingly or otherwise -- to King Crimson because of my compulsion for having music everywhere I go -- even at one of my jobs. Usually, I have at least two KC CDs with me, among half-a-dozen other groups/artists.) From the last few releases, this is what I've played: "THRAK" -- "Dinosaur," "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream" "THRaKaTTaK" -- (I once tried this, and I don't even DARE anymore after a long lost friend actually ran from the room screaming when the first two minutes of "THRAK" had passed. I kid you not. It was...enlightening, to say the least. Poor woman...) "ProeKct Two" -- "Sus-Tayn-Z" (Accidental -- I never meant to introduce someone to King Crimson with the ProjeKcts, but it did end up happening. So, I went on...) "ProjeKct Four" -- I haven't tried this one. "ProjeKct Three" -- That last little motif on track 13 before the long silent gap to the "hidden" track plays wonderfully for women! I know at least three who loved that lit- tle bit, and this encouraged them to try the whole CD. Only one taker, though. "Heaven And Earth" -- "Heaven And Earth" and "Superbottomfeeder" "The ConstruKction Of Light" -- "The ConstruKction Of Light" and "Lark's Tongues' In Aspic: Part IV" WITH the Coda. "Heavy ConstruKction" -- "The Deception Of The Thrush" and, believe it or not, "CCCSeizureCCC". "Level Five" -- "Dangerous Curves" and "Level Five." I've noticed that most of the women I have played King Crimson for tend to like the ProjeKct material better. A few guys somewhat get into it a bit tentatively at first, but almost no one I know, apart from one other person, can even stand to listen to "THRaKaTTaK" for more than four minutes, includng the "THRAK" theme. There was a young woman, however, who absolutely LOVED "THRaKaTTaK," and even bought it for her- self, and still listens to it. What stunned me was that her main musi- cal passions were for hardcore goth and classic gothic rock music, with some trance and ambient thrown in. She says "THRaKaTTaK", to her ears, fits in with all of that perfectly. After being introduced to "black tape for a blue girl," Dead Can Dance (though more world ethnic than gothic -- to me anyway), The Sisters Of Mercy, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Trio Nocturne, and Miranda Sex Garden, I think now, five years later, I am starting to hear what she picked up on so quickly. I at first thought it was just the tone colours, but there's a bit more of a connection there than I first heard. I should also add that this same woman loved King Crimson's track "Sleepless," and at my suggestion, played both the "Three Of A Perfect Pair" and "B'BOOM" versions at some raves that she was DJing at. According to her, both versions went down fairly well, but she reports that the Double Trio version went down even better. She has since had the odd request for it. Aaahhh, the evolution of listening... And Mike at Kissman24 at aol dot com asked for a review of "VROOOM VROOOM," so I thought I'd give it a whirl. The Double Trio was (and, in some ways, still is) my favourite ver- sion of the band, so I had to have this CD. I had heard "Schizoid" from the download, but I could never get my computer to get it. I had also planned on joining the KCCC at some point, mainly to get more of the Double Trio's work, but I didn't have the available cash to right then (And I still don't! Someday, though...) so I was eager to check out the Longacre Theater shows (I STILL intend on getting the whole concert -- when I have the money...). So, this set was actually fairly well-timed for me. I hadn't really listened to much of the "THRAK" stuff seriously for a while, so this set would do for now. Both CDs sound good. Actually, they sound superlatively good. My only beef was no "VROOOM," but the live version of the tune exists in enough places so that I didn't really miss it all that much. However, I didn't think the "VROOOM VROOOM" / "CODA: Marine 475" thing would work until I actually heard this CD (I had "Cirkus," but have actually not listened to it that much -- it gets borrowed a lot by friends who want to check out the King's entire history). Yup -- it works. Definitely a good thing there. Plus, except for the aforementioned "VROOOM," the CD has almost every single song that the Double Trio performed live that I would want to hear; there were a few others that I know they did, but their not as important (to me) as THESE songs. A great choice of songs on these CDs. The band seems to be in fine form throughout, although obviously one CD sounds MUCH better -- the Mexico CD, which I attribute to time having passed and the band and crew getting better as they go along. Like the CD "B'BOOM" it has two separate versions of "B'BOOM" and "THRAK" -- it would have been okay with only one, but I can see why and agree with both of them. I listen to the Longacre CD first -- it seems to make more sense that way; the sound gets better, "Conundrum" starts the experience and "Schizoid Man" ends it -- but that's just me. "Free As A Bird" was wonderful to hear, especially coming out of "THRAK." The "Biker Babes" improv I didn't really need, but it's nice that I got to hear how it went. All of the songs were stunning -- with "Indiscipline" surprising me the most, and "Frame By Frame" a close second. If you have seen the show, Mike, then this is a good collection. If you haven't, it's even better, much superior to "B'BOOM." But, I'd start with CD #2 first (again, just my opinion). I saw the November 11 '95 show at the Roxy, and I can tell you that the sound got progressively better from that concert to CD #2, and then CD#2 to CD #1. If you HAD to pick between the two, get this one, though "B'BOOM" isn't too shabby either. It's rougher, doesn't have as much colour, and is a little more uncontrolled, but it is rawer, has more spike to it, and I like THAT version of "One Time" live better, not to mention the aforementioned live version of "Sleepless" done by the full six-cylinder unit. For all of that, you just can't beat it. And to whoever's selling the KCCC disc #3 with Jamie Muir on E-Bay: I wish I could have had a crack at it. My computer doesn't do E-Bay, and I don't have a credit card, but I'd mail you a money order. So, if there is anyone who has this CD from the Collector's Club and doesn't want it, I'd gladly take it off your hands for $20-$25 dollars via money order. I won't be able to do it for about a month or so, but I'd be glad to pick it up from you, should you be interested in selling. I'm also interes- ted in ALL KCCC CDs that have the Double Trio, the Discipline band, and anything with Jamie Muir on it. If anyone has any of these to sell and are interested in a potential buyer, please reply privately. I just discovered that the book won't be out here in the US until May. Is there anyone who can tell me how to get this book any earlier without going through the internet? I haven't checked the website yet -- my com- puter works when it feels like it, not when I want it to -- but is there some order phone number or address? Again, I would appreciate a private reply to this. So Mike (and, interested readers), I hope all that helps you out. Best Wishes, Trey Five Winds ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:29:14 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: Does Trey Play? What's the chance of "hooking up" with this cutie after a gig for a cocktail.....or2? xoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:34:34 EST From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Re: Greensburg, PA review Kudos to Stephen T. Kilpatrick for an exceptionally well written and accurate review of the King Crimson gig in Greensburg this past Sunday night. He nailed it dead right. Only one quibble. He wrote: > The crowd itself was usually quite low key and respectful, > absolutely silent except for enthusiastic applause between songs. > > Stephen, you seem to have forgotten the bozo behind me in the fourth row > who kept yelling, as the band took the stage, "CRIMSO" and "GO STEELERS". > The crowd finally shushed him but at the end of the two encores he couldn't > be stopped from screaming "EASY MONEY". Yeah, as if. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:52:45 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: the beat club on ebay and others >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:57:26 -0500 >From: "costan at interlog dot com" >Subject: The Beat Club, Bremen 1972 @ ebay >Never opened, originally sealed copy of DGM Collector's Club release #3. An >excellent board recording of the first live performance by the five piece >line-up >that recorded the Larks's Tongue album including the wild >percussionist Jamie >Muir, who quit in 1 I am one of the possible bidders on this item, (i hope for my sake no one else bids.. PLEASE dont bid) and ive been looking for club releases and the great deciever on ebay recently. this may be a crime against humanity to mr. fripp, but i simply cant afford 75 dollars for the box set, or 100 for the KC club. So, unless im going to get shunned off the list for this, and i know this isnt a vehice for bootlegging, but is anyone out their willing to sell or trade some KC club releases? if anything i just REALLLLLLY want to haer three songs - "The Creator Has A Masterplan" from Live at The Summit Studios 1972 and "The Rich Tapestry Of Life" from The Beat Club 1972 release and "Trees" from the Live at The Marquee 1969 release bonus track (which is actaully from Croydon, Fairfield Hall, October 17, 1969).. i wouldnt mind hearing the Improv from that release as well. it is my opinion that once you buy it you are free to do with it what you please (this does not warrant an arguement on copy right laws and morals please!), so if you know anyone or you yourself are willing to sell/trade or even if you just want to enlightment with the songs i addressed send me mp3s of just those songs i want if i cant get anything else.. email me. Dont hate me cause im a poor man obsessed with music Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:49:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: Album Cover Mind Fuck Abbey Road - The preacher & the grave digger are gone, but the corpse and mourner remain. What a fitting analogy for the state of the music industry. Presence - This is the answer to the brown-eyed man riddle. Sabotage - Reflections of the way life used to be from the beasty men of Birmingham. If you want blood, you've got it - Another recording industry euphemism, and one great sound mix for people who aren't confused about whether or not a rock concert is for them. Moving Pictures - If you saw them moving on the screen when the lights went down on that tour and you were in the condition I was, then your mind was definitely fucked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 00:21:06 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: Single KC track The one KC track I would play is the one that most enthralled me on first hearing - LTIA1 (though I already was a KC fan,and had seen the Islands band live.) No other single track shows so much what KC is about - the dynamics, the soft vs the hard, the virtuoso playing, the complexity of structure - its all there (and it KICKS ASS). It is similar enough to the new material, so it is "fair" (I don't think it would be fair to introduce someone with, say, ITCOTKC, since they just don't sound like that now). Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:21:11 +1100 From: "dwane byrne" Subject: Re: whinger? Hi Crimheads, 'whinger' is Aussie slang = U.S. slang 'whiner' Hey, at Christmas, we get suntans, play cricket, and get to watch Santa surf! Why, after all, do you think Santa is red? He's just come from Oz and forgot to wear lots of sunblock. So there! So, folks, no whingeing! May Santa bring you lots of Crimhead joy! regards, Dwane Byrne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:54:25 -0500 From: "Kurt Angel" Subject: calling all musicians.... Folks, We pulled it off. Jam Lab has a phantom web for your downloading and jamming pleasure. First at bat is Tony Marsh of Tyler, TX. He dubbed some killer guitar work that reminds me of King Crimson on one of our tracks. This was all done by downloading tracks off/to our web. He also posted a big Texas sound in his new track www.mp3.com/tonymarsh This is an open call for all the muse among us to get on the web with your stuff. What better way to let others hear your stuff? I'm on a cable modem so the IP is subject to changes according to the whims of TWC. Send me email and I'll reply with the phantom link. If you are on dial up, we can use CDR to do the transfers. Check out Tony's virtual jam with us. Kurt Angel www.mp3.com/thejamlab ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:47:27 -0400 From: sclarson at uceng dot uc dot edu (Stephen J. Clarson) Subject: Level 5 CD Dear ET Team: As I am unable to make the KC latest shows is there anyone out there kind enough to please pick up a copy of the KC 'Level 5' CD for me? I will gladly cover any costs incurred. Stephen Clarson PS. Please reply to me off-list at sjclarson at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:59:55 -0600 From: "RadioactiveToy71" Subject: How To Introduce KC In ET, #903, I believe, a poster asked of a good way to introduce the unititiated to KC's music...from my experience, Discipline has always been the clincher. For about three years, I dated a self-proclaimed Phish-head (that's how she described herself, at least). Although her CD collection had a lot of good, essential pieces from Dylan, Grateful Dead, etc., I was curious as what her reaction to KC would be. I am by no means a Phish fan, but I have heard enough to realize that at some point, they must have heard at least SOME KC in their time. So Discipline comes out one night, and to say the least, she was impressed enough to not only procure her own copy but to go forth and seek out ITCOTCK, TOAPP, and a few others. I later threw some Zappa in the CD player, and once again, success! Oddly enough, I had played Overnight Sensation and Apostrophe, and somehow she went around those and went for the Jazz From Hell / Hot Rats stuff, but I digress... At any rate (how bout 4%?), I've found that Discipline has worked the best. Perhaps it's because it's somewhat accessible on the first few listens (as opposed to Lizard, took me years to finally appreciate that one!), perhaps it's a good place in the canon of KC works--one could either go forward to TCOL or as far back as GG&F, if one so desired. And then of course there's always the "greatest hits" route...The Compact KC did it for me years ago when I found it in a bargain bin for a dollar. By far, the best dollar I ever spent on music, and KC's been worth my time and money ever since. Good luck! It's always fun to watch the look of wonder and surprise on a new fan's face! Chris We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: Man In Space Subject: Singing and silly lyrics Hi, I've read a couple of statements in the latest ET's saying Belew is a lesser singer than the 'legendary' John Wetton. First objectivly : Ade is technical superior to Wetton, in range, pitch, whatever. With KC, Wetton hasn't sung a single tune in the right pitch. Period. One might enjoy that style, but it's no grounds for calling him a better singer than one who can actually reach his notes. My fave is Hammill, and he has a similar style/problem, but I do realize Belew's technique is better. OK, technique isn't everything, but one should be able to recognize and appreciate it before criticizing any musician. For my part, Ade could have sung in all Wetton's lines for the remasters, so I might enjoy the vocal songs from the Wetton era completely for once. Subjectively, I don't like Wetton's timbre at all. I prefer Ade's clear voice. And I certainly welcome Ade's lyrics, especially the funny/silly ones. I think humor suits the King very well. I would surely welcome a cd with compilations from various comments by Robert, who can be dangerously funny; more 'What Were You Expecting' for me, please. Jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:50:46 -0500 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: KC In Australia & Israel Hi Crimpeoples, I see a few people have been posting about wanting an Australia tour, and someone asked about Israel, too. IIRC Robert's diary correctly, last year when they were setting up the tours of Europe, Japan and North America they considered going to Australia, and also had an Israel tour in the works. The Australia visit never came together because they could not find a way to get down there without losing money. I think that Robert said that if they could go and just break even, then they would go, but that going and being certain to lose money was a different issue. Regarding the Israel tour, well that was apparently mostly set up, but they found out that the promoter was advertizing them as being a nostalgia act - that they would be playing all their old songs. The band cancelled rather than deal with what they felt would be fraud upon the paying fans. I am sure that someone on this list saved Robert's diary and can check for what he said exactly. Kathy Ottersten ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:08:27 -0700 From: "Guido Vacano" Subject: EARPLUGS! To all the concerned earplug people-- They're my ears, not yours. Please mind your own ears, health, well-being, and business, and stop minding mine. As for KC being one of the loudest bands in the world, they don't hold a candle to Motorhead. Thanks, Guido Guido N. Vacano, Ph.D. Research Associate/Webmaster Eleanor Roosevelt Institute http://eri.uchsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:13:19 -0600 From: "Don Hosek" Subject: pop culture vs mass culture Here's the actual quote (from the GC aphorisms) In popular culture, the musician calls on the highest part in all of us. In mass culture, the musician addresses the lower parts of what we are. --- Don Hosek 312/953-3679 Bassist http://don.dream-in-color.net/music/ Dream in Color http://www.dream-in-color.net/ "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." -Mahatma Gandhi- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:14:15 -0600 From: "Don Hosek" Subject: pop culture v. mass culture redux Oops, there's a second one too In popular culture, our musicians sing to us in our own voice. In mass culture they shout what we want to hear. --- Don Hosek 312/953-3679 Bassist http://don.dream-in-color.net/music/ Dream in Color http://www.dream-in-color.net/ "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." -Mahatma Gandhi- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:41:04 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: lets get small as far as the subject of drugs are(is? I always mess up on that one!) I just have this to say I think therefore I am= a reefer hi, think it, om. But besides that descartian anagramic excersize, I would like to ask if anyone has ever thought about Primus ( instead of Tool) showing with and or appearing on stage with KC- or is this a very old thread? a recommendation www.cozy-chops.com you must listen to those three mp3s- they are great! -stephen ***************************************************************************** What concerns me is not the way things are, but the way people think things are. -- Epictetus Science explains what happens and not what is. - Albert Camus I'm not afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens. - Woody Allen ***************************************************************************** Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood Branch Clerk stephenm at multcolib dot org 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:42:28 -0500 From: bmoore29 at csc dot com Subject: Re: Vrooom Vrooom troubles >Tormented by the fates! I had ordered VV from cdnow and received it last >week, only to discover a rather gruesome skip on track 4 of disc 2 (People, >from the NYC set) at exactly 4:08. Well, cdnow was kind enough to send a >replacement... which arrived 5 minutes ago, and *also* skips at exactly the >same spot. I've had the *exact* same problem, except that my two copies came directly from DGM. Needless to say, I have not opted for a third copy yet. >Has anyone else had this problem? Later today, I'll be venturing out to buy >a copy from a local music store. I'm pretty sure if it skips at the same >spot my head will explode. > >Either way, if you haven't picked up the set yet, I'd advise shopping from >somewhere *besides* cdnow. At least CDNow pays for return postage. DGM doesn't. Oh well... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:15:55 -0500 From: David Vella Subject: GH & KC? In ET#906, "My Brane Hurts" writes: > BTW somebody else mentioned that they couldn't think of any connection > between KC and George Harrison. What about Happy Family on Lizard? Whoever said they couldn't think of a connection wasn't paying very close attention. Besides being immortalized as 'Cousin Silas' by Pete Sinfield, let's not forget that Ian Wallace drummed for the Traveling Wilburys. I'm not sure which tracks, but Ian himself within the last week mentioned this on his DGM diary. Only two more days to the Boston show! Cheers, -David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:23:06 -0500 From: Block Dog Subject: Re: GIG REVIEW: Lakewood Civic Aud. >Adrian gave a >remarkable performance, this time omitting the lyrics to "Coda" out of >respect, I presume, for the passing of George Harrison. Actually, the lyrical portion of "Coda" has been missing from the performance since the warm up shows in Nashville. No disrespect to George, may he rest in peace. block ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:22:31 -0500 From: "Mark Berton" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Greensburg Concert Just wanted to drop a line about the Greensburg PA concert Sunday. While the Trey Gunn and Mastelletto's diary entries state that the band felt they did not connect with the audience, it was probably the best Crimson concert I've seen to date. My last concert was Cleveland around this time last year, right after the release of COL. While that performance was superb, a year of performing the material has definitely put an edge on the music. I am amazed at how much Gunn has grown as a performer in a year's time! The venue was an old theater, much like Heinz Hall in Pittsburgh. The ambiance was incredible. This is the type of venue they should play always. I know TG and PM were wondering while they weren't connecting, and I would like to respond by saying that most of the people around my section of audience were there to see John Paul Jones, which in his own right was excellent, although his sound mix was disappointingly poor. Pittsburgh- an hour from Greensburg- is mostly 4/4 classic rock. In 25 years, I have never heard Crimson on Pittsburgh air waves. Plus, if my company did not happen to do the Palace Theater's website, I would have never known they were playing around here. PM seemed to note in his diary that the promotion was less than 100% Highlights of the night included new material, a song that Belew said was called Electric. Whether it makes the final cut or not is up to the band, but it was a spectacular arrangement of soft, wispy introduction into a more intense middle. Deception of the Thrush was, as usual, intense, but touching. Gunn's solo at the end was the best I've heard yet. My girlfriend remarked that the difference between Trey Gunn and John Paul Jones' Chapman stick player is that JPJ's player was in love with himself, while Gunn was in love with the instrument. Level 5 was a more concretized vision of where the band seems to be heading. Heavy, yet complicated the piece flows as if it were weightless. While I won't ramble on and on, I would like Crimson fans who are stubborn about the old line ups, the loss of Bruford etc., to note that this is a band that has arrived. The foursome gels and the new material coming from their fingers is something that will inevitably become timeless. Regards, Mark Berton 1105 Glenfield Road Sewickley, PA 15143 ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #907 ********************************