Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #905 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 905 Wednesday, 5 December 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: 2 Tix for Boston Show GIG BIZ: Selling 2 Tkts for NYC 12/13 Pat's new kit, and Krim music on telly Re: Introducing KC to the unenlightened Re: 69 better time for music? hell yes Bill Bruford trivia / KC in Royal Oak Whither Jamie Muir? Dow Nunder Re: Initiation Crimson as Physical Therapy Pat's new kit, and Krim music on telly Sid Smith's book about King Crimson Re: QUIT CRYING Re: whinger? The Beat Club, Bremen 1972 @ ebay Songs for first-time KC listeners... Metal and prog a single KC track; Sid Smith's book; Kingh Crimson tour dates past Re: Comparisions, KC-Dylan-Lesh, what I think. Drug / Prog Definition: Just say no! GIG REVIEW: Greensburg, PA, December 2, 2001 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:56:48 -0500 From: Joe Connolly Subject: GIG BIZ: 2 Tix for Boston Show I have two tix for the Boston Show available. Asking face value $50 each. They are Orchestra Right Center Row JJ (7th row). Joe Connolly jconnoly at ma dot mew dot com 781-938-5060 (WK#) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:34:58 -0500 From: Jon Adelman Subject: GIG BIZ: Selling 2 Tkts for NYC 12/13 I'm selling 2 tickets for the KC show at the Beacon Theater on Thursday, 12/13. They are in the Orchesta, Row N. They cost me $150, but I will sell them for $140. Contact me via email @ adelmanj at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:25:03 -0500 From: Stuart McConaghy Subject: Pat's new kit, and Krim music on telly Hey everyone, my first post to this forum here, so apologies if this has been asked before. Pat's kit changed somewhat since last year's tour, does anybody know the exact changes to his set, and would like to share? I'd look for myself, but sadly I can't make it to the New Haven show on the 9th (mother-in-law's birthday party). Plus, if anyone in NH could pick up a copy of the Level 5 CD for me, that'd be luvverly. Another thing, years ago, I remember watching a documentary on German television about autistic children, and frequently, the background music used was the recorder/organ interlude from ITCOCK. Does anybody know of any other use of Krim material in TV programmes, commercials, or the like? No, Emmannuelle doesn't count ;-) TIA, Stu "I think people who can live their life in music are telling the world: 'You can have my love, you can have my smiles. Forget the bad parts, you don't need them. Just take the music, the goodness, because it's the very best,' and it's the part I give most willingly." - George Harrison, 1943-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:44:41 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: Introducing KC to the unenlightened >But suppose you had an unsuspecting >friend who has never heard of King Crimson (I know, I know, like that would >ever happen! But bear with me...). >You mention that you dig this cool band, KC (normal reaction, King Who?). >You explain. They say, "So what songs have they done?". You mention >ITCOTCK, >knowing you'll get one of two reactions: >a) Never heard of it >b) Oh yeah, weren't they some psychedelic band in the 60s? >But they're interested, so you decide to play them something. Now here is >the question: >To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for them as >an introduction to King Crimson? That is funny you bring this up now, because i just introduced KC to 2 of my friends, and i had to choose which songs to play for them. Its really hard to decide. but i thought that id do it in a way that i was introduced to them.. i heard the discipline album first, and then i went back and forth through their career from there. I think, as im sure everyone does, that KC is at top form live.. so i picked from CIRKUS. I played 3 songs.. first i played Thela Hun Ginjeet because they both knew who les claypool was and i thought id get them with something familiar.. Then i played Indiscipline because this is just one of the coolest songs they have. the haunting almost psychotic speech by Belew, the slow funky beat and then the crazy crashing after the verses.. its mind blowing. then i played Fracture. fracture is probably my favorite KC song, its just incredible, so i played that to show the difference between the years and the brilliance of the band. After that, for one of my friends i started playing other stuff from the first disc like B'BOOM, VROOOM, Heavy Construkction, and Elephant Talk.. she seemed less interested in the heavy stuff, but then she seemed bored by Fracture. I tried to explain the history before i played it, about each different group and style. i dont know if any of it mattered to her. i asked another friend of mine who is very in the know about music if he had heard of them or liked them , he said he liked thier earlier "more pyschadelic stuff"... i thought that was funny because i dont find them psychadelic at all. and that exactly what you said people say. i was telling my other friend about how awesome they are and he was like "yea, they are alright.. for prog" and i almost shot him. he doesnt know anything about prog in the first place, and he probably has never heard KC before, and shouldnt have said something dumb like that. what the hell does taht even mean anyway? they are alright for a prog band? what a terribley ignorant thing to say. anyway, so peoples reactions are mixed, but i dont tell anyone abuot them unless they are very open minded about music. those 2 girls i was talking abuot earlier are, the first one i think was more into it then the second, she said she wants me to burn CIRKUS for her after hearing Thela, Indiscipline and Fracture, so thats progress. but i think that is a good formula for me to use with my friends.. i might leave out Thela because its a little repetitive for someone who isnt into them yet (well, the live version without the story behind it first.."this is a dangerous place" or whatever) im anxious to play Indiscipline for another friend too. I personally dont think 21stCentury Schizoid Man doesnt displays the creativity and range of music styles of King Crimson thoughtout their career so im not going to play it, i fear it will make someone say "oh yea, thats kind of like smoke on the water or something they must be a 60s rock band , i get it", but the music speaks for itself. if the listener wants to classify, they shouldnt be listening to KC. Im thinking next time i might play LTiA 2 and FraKctured, and maybe Cat Food one of the 2 catchy rock and rollin songs by KC (that and Ladies of the Road in my opinion), but Easy Money is really great too especially live... (another thing, listening to my tapes of The Great Deciever, and The Night Watch, and the studio version of Easy Money its very interesting to see that they alwasy do something diffferent). Another thing about this, is that its so much fun to help people discover this band, almost as much fun as it is discovering them yourself. being able to look over the big picture and range of albums and music and be able to say "oh, you will love this song.. then listen to this album its amazing" Oh I cant forget FRAME BY FRAME is an amazing song also. ill play that next time too. What does everyone else think? sorry for the long post Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:53:31 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: 69 better time for music? hell yes >In ET 898, Jordan Clifford, in his post re selling out, stated that "The >music that is popular has changed with the times. 1969 was a very different >time. One of the rare times when almost all music was good - there werent as >many developed styles, but still. therefor, popular music was good." >Sorry Jordan, but here in the UK the 20 top selling albums in 1969 were as >follows:- >1 Best of the Seekers >2 Sound Of Music Film S'track >3 Ray Coniff his orchestra his singers >4 The Beatles Abbey Road >5 Johnny Cash at San Quentin >6 Oliver Film S'track >7 Jim Reeves According to my Heart >8 Mary Hopkin Goodbye >9 Bob Dylan Nashvile Skyline >10 The Supremes and the Temptations >11 Motown Chartbusters >12 Hair - London Cast recording >13 World of Mantovani Vol 1 >14 World Of Val Doonican >15 Moody Blues On The Threshold Of a Dream >16 World Of Mantovani Vol 2 >17 The Beatles White Album >18 Elvis Presley Flaming Star >19 Jethro Tull Stand Up >20 This Is Tom Jones Um.. yea, i stand by my point. look at todays top 20. im in USA so they are obvously different. but if we had anything close to the white album, or abbey road, or Tull, or the supremes, or Cash, or Presley, or Bob Dylan on the charts today then maybe that would be different. But many of those are extremely superb artists. So, i guess "good" music is a matter of opinion. but ill take the "POP" of 1969 over todays "POP" anyday. >Also, while I'm on, re the posts on Shania Twain, she co-writes almost all >her material with her ex-AC/DC producing husband, Mutt Lange - I don't think >the guys in Crimso couldv'e written "That Don't Impress Me Much" or any of >the other brilliantly catchy tunes on the Come On Over CD >What say you all She CO writes ALMOST all her material... thats something alright. Writing Brilliantly Catchy tunes isnt the greatest accomplishment in the world, but lets give credit where credit is due. like i was saying in other posts, POP doesnt mean CRAP. the albility to write a great pop song is a great albility.. however, i can think of a ton of people who do it better then Shania, and she only Co-does it. how abuot The Beatles for one, Elvis, Paul Simon, Michael Jackson, James Brown, Cake, Ben Folds, The Beach Boys, i cant even begin to think of any others, there are so many from now and from decades ago. If we are goin to credit brilliant song writing, pop or prog, lets give it to those who deserve it. Hell, Shania Twain isnt awful, her stuff is good for what it is, she COwrites good pop/country crossover pop (whatever that means, her new stuff doesnt have an ounce of country in it) songs, but any way you look at it, i dont think her song writing is brilliant for even for pop ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:58:08 -0500 From: "Alexander Domrin" Subject: Bill Bruford trivia / KC in Royal Oak Hello everybody - Does anybody know if "our" Bill Bruford has anything to do with Granta, an American quarterly published and distribured by Penguin Ltd.? Granta's editor-in-chief is Bill Bruford too. [ No, the Granta person is Bill BUFORD, not Bruford. No more posts on this misunderstanding, please -- Toby ] By the way, yesterday's concert of JPJ/KC in Royal Oak was awesome. Excellent sound, Fripp sitting in the light, two encores. Stop writing scary reviews, guys! KC is alive and kicking. Alex, a Russian in the Court of the Crimson King. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:37:39 -0000 From: Steve Moore Subject: Whither Jamie Muir? > > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:26:40 -0500 > From: Jim Bailey > Subject: ItCoKc > > Received my (autographed) copy of In the Court of King Crimson (#424) > yesterday. Whoopee!! > > Signatures from Sid S., Peter G., Mike G., Jamie M., Ian W., Bill B., > Tony L., and one unidentifiable which I'll have to work on. I'm hoping > that, with lots of luck, I can get four more on Dec. 5th. Jamie Muir signed it? I was under the impression he'd lost touch with the band - anyone know what he's up to these days? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:44:13 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Dow Nunder In ET #904, cam@arthole asks: >>>Is it true King Crimson have never played here in Australia?! Apparently, Fripp doesn't like playing in Down Under. He says all the blood rushes to his head. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:50:12 -0500 From: Kevin Holm-Hudson Subject: Re: Initiation >Tim inquired: >> To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for >> them as >> an introduction to King Crimson? Sylvan responded: > >I generally go for one of the two tracks that reeled me in, which happen >to have been Schizoid Man and Larks' Tongues Pt. 1 (although given most >people's attention spans, I have to fast-forward through the thumb piano >section...) LTiA works pretty well because it just has that 'gee-whiz' >factor-- sadly, most people today have never heard anything remotely >like it. Which leads me to my favorite LTIA1 story... Teaching a small undergraduate liberal-arts seminar on the history of rock at another institution a few years ago, when we got to prog I decided to introduce them not only to Crimso, but to the genre, with LTIA1 (intending to use it as a discussion point along the lines of, "okay, how did we get to *this* style of music in just a few years?"). I set it up by having them get comfortable (the class was held in the "TV lounge" of one of the student dorms, so the room had cushy chairs and a top-notch stereo system) and close their eyes. Then I turned out the lights. (We tried something similar with the studio version of Pink Floyd's "Saucerful of Secrets" when I introduced psychedelia, and it led to some great discussion.) Everyone predictably drifted off happily. IMHO, the thumb-piano introduction is essential, because (like so many Crimso tracks) it lulls you into complacency before pummeling you. :-) Then the violin pulse entered, and Fripp's buzz-saw guitar, and as the band reached its first crescendo I peeked to look at my students. One girl had a *big* smile on her face, as though she were going up the biggest hill of the world's most thrilling roller coaster. Afterward, several students asked "what was that?" "where can I get it?" "Is the whole album like that?" etc. etc. Next semester I'm teaching a graduate music-theory seminar on progressive rock here at the University of Kentucky. Needless to say I'm looking forward to it, probably even more than my students are. Kevin Holm-Hudson -- Kevin Holm-Hudson Assistant Professor of Music Theory University of Kentucky 105 Fine Arts Building Lexington, KY 40506-0022 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:29:29 EST From: Boobird at aol dot com Subject: Crimson as Physical Therapy An amazing but true story ... The weekend before Crimson's show in Saint Paul, I had been helping a friend with a pre-winter cleaning of their roof, gutters, etc. In the course of this I wrenched my back so that, for the next days, pains were coursing and careening through my right shoulder. I lived with the pain until the November 21 concert. There, as I enjoyed the show from directly in front of some floor speakers, I could feel the heavy vibrations of the music. Awaking the next morning, my shoulder felt fine. The pain was gone!! If only everyone had the luxury of such therapy ... Toby, I think there's money to be made, somehow ... :-) -- Mark Newstrom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:25:03 -0500 From: Stuart McConaghy Subject: Pat's new kit, and Krim music on telly Hey everyone, my first post to this forum here, so apologies if this has been asked before. Pat's kit changed somewhat since last year's tour, does anybody know the exact changes to his set, and would like to share? I'd look for myself, but sadly I can't make it to the New Haven show on the 9th (mother-in-law's birthday party). Plus, if anyone in NH could pick up a copy of the Level 5 CD for me, that'd be luvverly. Another thing, years ago, I remember watching a documentary on German television about autistic children, and frequently, the background music used was the recorder/organ interlude from ITCOCK. Does anybody know of any other use of Krim material in TV programmes, commercials, or the like? No, Emmannuelle doesn't count ;-) TIA, Stu "I think people who can live their life in music are telling the world: 'You can have my love, you can have my smiles. Forget the bad parts, you don't need them. Just take the music, the goodness, because it's the very best,' and it's the part I give most willingly." - George Harrison, 1943-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:15:16 +0100 From: "Ignacio Carlos Romeo Puolakka" Subject: Sid Smith's book about King Crimson Hi. I am Carlos Romeo, from Madrid (Spain). In the backcover of the Sid Smith's books i can read the following: "In the Court of King Crimson is the first ever book to chronicle the vontinuing development of this...". Well, I wrote and published a book about this band, simply titled King Crimson, in 1999. It was written in Sapnish and in my country it saw the light of the day. This is not the first book written in Spain about Robert FRipp or King Crimson, just the second one. I've read the first 50 pages of the Sid Smith's book and it is very interesting, engaging and well written. It was worth the wait; but it is not the first book about KC. Thanks for your kindness. Carlos Romeo. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 2001 19:27:57 -0000 From: "Andy Dean" Subject: Re: QUIT CRYING I haven't posted for 3-4 years, but I couldn't let this go by without a post. I'm 24 and have been moderately hearing impaired since age 14. I can't function in public anymore without hearing aids, and it precludes the use of cell phones and things like that. I don't want or need sympathy, but my point is that when it comes to hearing, you don't know what you've got until you lose it. Buy the ear plugs, they're like $3-4 anyway. End rant. Hope you all enjoy the shows as much as I enjoyed Nov. 24 Chicago. (In the words of the Simpsons' Comic Book Guy, "Best ... Thela ... EVER!") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:13:54 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: whinger? >Whinger - noun. One who whinges. :) It's good to see that the good old >trend of mass floccinaucinihilipilification of our youth's verbal skills is >still alive and kicking (so to speak). (And thus a fitting one for me: >Wanker, noun - One who wanks.) being a young person as well, ive never heard of this Whinger either, except the band Winger.. hmm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:57:26 -0500 From: "costan at interlog dot com" Subject: The Beat Club, Bremen 1972 @ ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1491609690 Never opened, originally sealed copy of DGM Collector's Club release #3. An excellent board recording of the first live performance by the five piece line-up that recorded the Larks's Tongue album including the wild percussionist Jamie Muir, who quit in 1973. Recordings with him are rare and this is prime live stuff by the best line-up of the band including a thirty minute dynamic improv titled "The Rich Tapestry Of Life" featuring elements that were developed into the recordings on Starless. Also features "Exiles" and "Lark's Tongue In Aspic (Part 1)." The 24 page booklet features notes and more of Fripp's tour diaries (this time from 1998). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:28:49 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: Songs for first-time KC listeners... For a first-time King Crimson listener, I'd probably play them Dinosaur, or The Great Deceiver...mainly because they're not really complex songs. Then I'd ease them into stuff like In The Court Of The Crimson King, and, eventually, 21st Century Schizoid Man (specifically, the version from Cirkus, which I just bought yesterday...also know for a fact I'm getting In The Wake Of Poseidon for Christmas and hopefully this weekend I will buy VROOM VROOM or maybe TCOL). Could you guys give me a review or 2 from VROOM VROOM? That's fairly new, is it not? I'd like some reviews because I'm really thinking of buying that...There are so many KC albums I need to buy...I only have SABB and Discipline, Cirkus and ITCOTCK (I'm fairly new to KC...can ya' tell?)...though I only actually OWN a few of their albums, I've heard many, MANY of their others thanks to friends, etc. I'm just getting into the new stuff and I'm digging it, man...Dinosaur is such a killer tune! And I think my new favorite KC song is Three Of A Perfect Pair (this changes every day). I got into them when I was like 6 because of Schizoid Man, but didn't pay much attention to them until recently when I discovered ET, so I picked up Discipline and went nuts over it...I'm in the middle of buying their whole catalouge and hope to subcribe to the KCCC when I get the cash (seeing as I'm 12, money is limited). Love and Bruises... ---Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:50:26 -0700 From: "Prog Frog" Subject: Metal and prog Whoops! Sorry that I took so long to answer... 1) Actually, it's my fault for not saying that Anthrax's guitarist Scott Ian is actually the one who said that Fripp stated that metal a la Anthrax was the music on the cutting edge back then (it was in an issue of Guitar World around the time The Sound of White Noise came out)...I know it's not 100% reliable, but knowing Ian it is very unlikely that he was fooling around...... 2) It's weird, a lot of metal that is not "progressive metal" still has always had elements of progressive rock in it. Black Sabbath, Zeppelin, thrash metal bands such as Megadeth, Slayer, and Metallica, current death acts such as Dark Tranquility, and even glam metal acts like White Lion, where the elements were more noticeable, for instance, in the guitar solos (which sound awkwardly similar to Dream theater's John Petrucci's now that I think about it!).......I guess it's the fact that metal musicians (myself included =) ) take pride in knowing how to play their instruments, although you could argue that that is not entirely true in a lot of cases!!! All the best, Marcelo Silveyra Progfreaks.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 18:13:14 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: a single KC track; Sid Smith's book; >To the uninitiated listener, what single KC track would you play for them > as an introduction to King Crimson? Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part 2 >This my first post to ET and Sid Smith's superb book is the reason why I > am posting here. I got my hardback copy earlier in the week and was > delighted with the book and the fact that so many Crims had autographed > it. This surely is one to take good care of. This book is completely delightful and this is what we were wanting when we got Eric Tamm's book instead. That one was OK but this one is *superb*. Way to go Sid, it was extremely toxic and I ate it all up in about two days. My offer for a Crystal Ballroom beer and an Everyday Music CD shopping trip stands - only let's double it - two beers and two shopping trips. >Can long time fans of King Crimson stand a review by someone who knows > next to nothing about their music? I've only heard the album containing > 21st Century Schizoid Man, and that was years ago. I was there (2nd row, > center wearing a Led Zeppelin T shirt) to see opening act John Paul Jones, > although I certainly was curious to see what type of music I would here < from KC. I would think your perspective might be an interesting one - and thanks for the review - your perspective *is* an interesting one. - S. np: Jesters, Crystal Ballroom 12 Oct 2000 scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:28:27 EST From: Dhoffman3535 at aol dot com Subject: Kingh Crimson tour dates past Was wondering if you know of a place that has a log of King Crimson tours(cities) from years past? thanks, dave hoffman dhoffman3535 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:38:17 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: Comparisions, KC-Dylan-Lesh, what I think. Apparently, some things I wrote in a recent ET incensed someone who thinks the world of Bob Dylan & Phil Lesh, and i'd like to reply if I could? My attitude apprently is "condensending & insulting" by not acknowledging the fact that both Dylan & Lesh play each night of their tour(Dylan even "STANDING UP for 2 & 1/2 hours")after both suffered life threatening illness. I am also credited w/ saying FRipp is too old to tour because he has to play really fast during Fractured & that this does'nt say much for my high opinion of him. 1st, I never said Fripp was too old to tour, or anything about his playing on "Fractured" & my opinion of him IS very high. Maybe I am being condescending in my opinion towards Dylan & Lesh, but it's only MY opinion. Personally, I never thought Dylan was anything other than a good songwriter, and to me his musicianship is merely adequate. Lesh never impressed me, and even though i'm comparing "apples & oranges" here, they are no where near the level of anyone in KC or a 1000 other musicians I could name. Wow, Dylan can actually stand for an entire 2 & 1/2 hour performance? Let's hear it for him. As far as having a life threatening disease, I know all about that, & it's "their" choice as to wether keep touring or not because of those circumstances. As for comparing KC to Dylan & Lesh's performance on stage, you mention that "it could be argued that Dylan & Lesh have the more difficult job since they do significant amount of improvosations at their concerts" ect. "whereas Crimson for at least 3/4 of each performance SIMPLY plays the songs the way they were written & rehearsed". SIMPLY plays(yeah, that's a simple task)the songs the way they were written? Have you been to many KC concerts? Nothing simple about those songs & I hear alot of improv each & everytime they play. Gimme a break, there is no way Dylan or Lesh come close to what it takes to play the music Crimson does or have the "groundbreaking" ability to come up with the ideas Fripp & company invent for each new song,yet alone an entire cd. I Know i'm fighting a losing battle here but fight on I will. "In terms of actual performance, Fripp ONLY Has to learn a dozen or so songs & he's ready to go on tour"- "and most of those songs are the ones he played on the previous tour, and the one before that, and the one before that." Again, how many Crimson concerts have you been to? I've never heard what you speak of from KC. Each tour i've seen has been dramatically, musically different.You say both Dylan & Lesh maintain significantly larger "working repertoires than Fripp w/Dylan changing half his set every night & Lesh of course changing his entire set every night". I maintain it's much easier for both in that Dylan's songs are simple, & when you're basically "jamming" every night(Lesh)there is no set to stick to, and Lesh's improvs are less taxing as the audience does'nt know or care if you're making mistakes, and that is a proven fact, just take the "Grateful Dead" for example. The music Crimson plays is more intense, more challenging mentally and physically, even though Robert sits on a stool. He does this for a reason you know(actually more than 1)just the way most classical guitarists sit because it allows them to manipulate their fingers on the fretboard easier & faster(no weight from an electric guitar pulling down on you in Fripps case)and provides Robert the sight cue's he uses to communicate w/the rest of the band, especially Adrain. The auident at most KC performances is just waiting for a wart, so they can report on it here.(At least the majority of them) Lasty, as I pointed out twice, I mentioned that Fripp "may" decide that this be the last KC tour "if" it was too much mentally. I only mentioned that because it was the "impression I got" whilst seeing them, & taking all the other things I mentioned into account! This was my opinion after all. I would much prefer seeing Crimson continue touring into infinity, but that's simply not possible. Thanks STEVE "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner" Robet DeNiro in Heat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 02:59:07 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Drug / Prog Definition: Just say no! Will: >If you could imagine what it would be like to see a house being >de-constructed, almost built in reverse you might be able to imagine what >it's like. Hearing the latter KC before the former means tracing the >evolution backwards, so you see what was influenced by what, not what >influenced what... if you get what I mean. Strangely enough, thats close to what Id imagined. Interesting. >>No offense, but getting stoned has no context to anything. >Well I think it's a marvelous analogy, because everybody I've played KC to >has said something along the lines of 'Whoa, what stoner music!' Each to >their own I suppose... Again, people get stoned to the Carpenters too (true!), so your definition (if you remember, the subject was supposed to be re: the intertwining of drugs with music for a definition of prog music) wont hold despite, or perhaps because of, digressions to non-pertinant trend-speak. >But tell me, when you see a dog doo on the footpath do you avoid it, or >stand around with your friends complaining about it? You need to examine what an analogy is (hint: its not the recitation of cliches). >>Okay, but I dont see his [Devin Townsend's] success relevance to MTVs >>being crap. >It shows that someone can still do great things, without the help of the >popular music industry, despite MTV being around. Whats that got to do with the quality or existance of MTV? And since when does MTV have some weird mystic pervasiveness, that you think you have to hold it out as The Great Creeping Evil that everyones efforts have to be seen as a vainglorious blow against? Most people could give two, to borrow from you, doo-doos about it, except to note that it sucks bricks. Let me know when MTV starts airing KC and Ill consider entertaining it as anything other than a behaviour patterning device for ex-punkers (Punk music: Gods gift to the stupid and ugly!). >It's good to see that the good old trend of mass >floccinaucinihilipilification of our youth's verbal skills is still alive >and kicking (so to speak). Its also obvious they suffer from aporrhea and depend too much on books of semantic pedantry to try to impress. >Remember - Your kids are not only the ones that will be running the planet >in a few decades, they're also the ones that choose your retirement home. Its always amusing to field power fantasies from the disenfranchised, but, of course, unless they learn to organize their thoughts better, theyll barely be able to cash their checks at the corner liquor store. I suspect, too, that quite a few will beat me to the retirement home, so I doubt that I, or my peers, have much to worry about. To try, perhaps in vain to recapture the starting premise: drugs have no place in any definition of any music. Resort to that is usually a fairly sad attempt by some to seem hip. Myself having done plenty of drugs (long ago, and, yes, when I used to go see KC, Gentle Giant, Hendrix, Focus, Capt. Beyond, etc., but also many many incidents away from the concert halls), I will take both the experiential and the intellectual stance and say with conviction that drugs do not in any way much fundamentally re-bias aesthetics in anyone, though they may, for a time, expand ones existant aesthetic. For instance, I knew PLENTY of stoners who, merely because they took drugs, didnt have Urge One to listen to KC or prog; many preferred soul, John Denver, CSNY, etc. Conversely, prog stoners had little inclination to start buying Malo, Marvin Gaye, or Bette Midler. So, to those who have done drugs, this pseudo-arcane theory holds no water, not even during a hurricane. You may want to consult extent quotes from Fripp and many of the prog masters re: drugs. I think youll find that not one will agree with your premise. Of course, one of the reasons is that a number of them took quite a decent amount of drugs AND used their brains, understanding how to separate psycho-biochemical interludes from reality. Most of the drug users Ive heard from nowadays take Xtasy and smoke pot and little else (not that Im encouraging otherwise) using that foundation for hideously exaggerated tales of crazy wild raging partiness! and that, coupled with the fact that todays drugs are VASTLY different from the 60s/70s drugs (and, frankly, a LOT more brutal, not lending themselves to the intellect or aesthetics at all) make for a really wanting data base. Ive found many more straight intellectuals who got one hell of a lot more out of just opening up into prog music than I have with stoners and their rigid egocentric venalities, bellowing and stomping in the concert halls, at home, at parties...and in print. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:37:49 -0500 From: "Stephen T. Kilpatrick" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Greensburg, PA, December 2, 2001 King Crimson and John Paul Jones The Palace Theatre, Greensburg, Pennsylvania, USA December 2, 2001 I personally was very excited about this joint tour, as I have been an enthusiast of both for many years. I had previously attended 2 King Crimson shows in 1996 (as well as a ProjeKct Two show in 1998), and a John Paul Jones show in 2000. I seem to be somewhat unique in that I love the music of both; from reading reviews of other shows, it seems that the KC crowd finds JPJ "boring", and the Zeppelin/JPJ crowd finds KC "too weird". (This is obviously an unfair generalization, but I've read similar comments to that effect repeatedly.) In short, this night was a dream come true for me. The Palace Theatre is a small (1300 seat) theatre of the type with chandeliers and Grecian marble, decorated in white and gold. The venue usually books orchestras, brass bands, choral groups, and performers more often seen on the state fair circuit. The JPJ/KC combination booking seemed a bit odd (I suspect that it the most likely Pittsburgh-area venue that meets Robert Fripp's somewhat fussy standards), but I'm not complaining - all performers were easily visible and audible, but not too loud or distorted. Greensburg is about 30 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, and quite convenient for me, 40 miles away in Johnstown. The crowd itself was usually quite low key and respectful, absolutely silent except for enthusiastic applause between songs. The ages of the audience ranged from about five (I spotted at least three children under 10) to late 60s or possibly 70s, with quite a few college age folks as well. The average age was definitely in the late 30s or 40s (not too different from that of the performers). There seemed to be a fair number of women, many (like my wife) undoubtedly SPUDs (SPouses Under Duress) dragged along by earnest not-so-young men. Ticket takers and security reminded everyone verbally about the "no photographs" rule (and there were many posted notices), and the venue has a "no smoking" policy. Fortunately, all of the audience members complied, and we were rewarded with two encores from King Crimson (see set list below). The merchandise area had several KC T-shirts, a KC polo shirt, and one JPJ shirt ($25-$35), and a number of CDs: KC "Heavy ConstruKction" and "Level Five EP", BPM&M "ExtraKcts & ArtifaKcts", The Bears' new one, Trey Gunn band "Live Encounter", and JPJ "Zooma" are what I recall. I picked up "Level Five" (a must have, assuming you like KC) and BPM&M (cool mixes of KC snippets), as I already own "Zooma" and "Heavy ConstruKction". (JPJ's "Thunderthief" was not available, as it is now only available as a Japanese import, but will be released here on Feb. 5, 2002, according to a flyer at the show.) Now, on to the show. "The John Paul Jones Orchestra" (7:45 - 8:55) John Paul Jones: 8 & 10 string basses, lap steel guitar, electric mandolin, acoustic and electric ukelele, vocals Nick Beggs: Chapman stick, Ovation acoustic 12-string guitar, backing vocals on "That's The Way" Terl Bryant: drums & percussion, bodrhan(?), backing vocals on "That's The Way" Set list: (approximate order) Pre-Show: The Shaggs on the PA, then Kyma as the lights dimmed. Zooma - JPJ on bass, from "Zooma" Leafy Meadows - JPJ on bass, from "Thunderthief" The Smile Of Your Shadow - JPJ on bass & lap steel, from "Zooma" That's The Way - JPJ on electric mandolin & vocals, NB on acoustic guitar, TB on bodrhan (I believe), from "Led Zeppelin III" Freedom Song - JPJ solo, on ukelele & vocals, from "Thunderthief" Hoediddle - JPJ on electric ukelele, from "Thunderthief" B. Fingers (with Heartbreaker teaser) - JPJ on bass & lap steel, from "Zooma" When The Levee Breaks - JPJ on lap steel, from "Led Zeppelin Untitled 4th album" Tidal - JPJ on bass, from "Zooma" Encore: Black Dog (with In My Time Of Dying teaser) - JPJ on lap steel, from "Led Zeppelin Untitled 4th album" I loved the set, my wife enjoyed it very much (previously not having an opinion one way or the other). Contrary to reports at previous shows, from our position on the floor (eleven rows back on the right aisle) every instrument was clearly audible. JPJ's vocals are not bad, much better than previous live attempts I've heard (i.e., counterpoint vocal on "Battle of Evermore" from 1977 Led Zeppelin tour). The new tunes are very much in the "Zooma" style with a lot of soloing from JPJ and Nick. I think that KC newbies were treated to a lot of puzzling two-hand tapping with Beggs' Chapman stick playing (with he and JPJ trading off on bass and lead duties on their respective instruments) and Trey Gunn's Warr guitaring with Crimson. I heard some folks calling Beggs' instrument a "harp". There wasn't much crowd interaction, but I think the crowd showed its appreciation to the band and vice versa. A call for "Stairway To Heaven" before "That's The Way" was met with "Can I do something else instead?" It's hard to believe the man is 55 years old, as he could pass for 45 (from eleven rows back, anyway) and his multi-instrumental talents have not diminished over the years. King Crimson (9:30-10:55) Adrian Belew: guitars, vocals, effects Robert Fripp: guitar Trey Gunn: Warr guitar Pat Mastelotto: acoustic & electronic percussion Set list: (approximate order) Pre-show: taped Fripp soundscaping (as the crew broke down JPJ gear and set up KC; fortunately Pat's kit is assembled on a wheeled platform) Dangerous Curves (from "Level Five" EP) The ConstruKction of Light (from "The ConstruKction of Light") Into The Frying Pan (from "The ConstruKction of Light") EleKctric (to be recorded for the next album) Elephant Talk (from "Discipline") VROOOM / Coda:Marine 475 (from "Thrak") Virtuous Circle (from "Level Five" EP) Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part IV / Instrumental Coda (from "The ConstruKction of Light") Encore 1: The Deception Of The Thrush (from "Level Five" EP) Level Five (from "Level Five" EP) Encore 2: Red (from "Red") I loved it, but my dear wife came away without an answer to the question of what I find so compelling about this band. (I won't try to answer it here.) I found it exceptional, and the few folks I overheard or spoke to afterwards apparently agree. The sound was clear and not overpowering - I brought earplugs for protection as a caution, but didn't use them, and there have been no lasting effects. Most of the set is quite heavy, with some lighter moments ("Virtuous Circle", Trey's solo in "Deception..."). Again, the crowd was very quiet as the music played, so it's difficult to tell how the musicians felt about the gig and the crowd's reaction to it (I'll be checking Trey's and Pat's online diaries for any comments they might have). The previously mentioned solo by Trey was especially well received, and he mouthed a "thank you" during the extended applause. Before the second encore, Adrian asked for a show of hands of who had and had not previously seen Crimson live, and there were many "newbies". Few of the audience left before Crimson's set, from what I could tell. All the numbers were cheered loudly, so I hope the band felt it was a warm reception. It was not a perfect show, but the few imperfections were probably only recognized by the obsessive faithful - Fripp with the wrong sound setting (twice!) in "VROOOM", the occasional missed entry by the other guitarist (prompting a slight smile by Fripp) - but overall a "hot" show from this audient's perspective. The new material is an extension and progression of the "ConstruKction of Light" sound, one that is more electronic/techno sounding than previous incarnations of the band (no surprise to the KC crowd). Clearly, the performers are treating this tour as nearly co-headlining, since JPJ plays a little too long to be the opener, and KC a little too short to be the main attraction. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #905 ********************************