Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #902 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 902 Saturday, 1 December 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Tics For Sale NYC 12/13/01.... It's JUST Entertainment??? Show Length Since You Asked! Collector's Club - unimpressive? vehicular comparison test who was the witch? OT - RIP George Harrison Goodbye, George. George Harrsion shows per country? ..Favorites.. Prog Rock or Progressing Rock Re: Comments on the current tour Trey Gunn's new live cd Re: Comments on KC's recent gigs, & St. Louis concert. Beware the Brown Acid D.A.R.E. (drugs are really excellent) Thanx! GIG REVIEW: King Crimson at PromoWest Pavilion, Columbus, Ohio 11/29 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:33:01 EST From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: Tics For Sale NYC 12/13/01.... I have 2-14th row center ORCH seats for sale for the 12/13/01 show here in NYC... Looking to sell at cost...Please email me if interested...Thanks to all who respond... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:26:44 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: It's JUST Entertainment??? Australian Will wrote: >I'm but 17 years old, and got introduced to KC when I was 16 by my stoner >uncle, who was a fan of the likes of Fripp and Eno, along with the rest of >the prog scene. The first KC album I got was Construction... Ive always wondered what it would be like to discover KC late in the game and THEN discover the rest of the catalogue, especially coming from an 80s/90s frame. I wouldnt even know how to pose the question as to what the experience is, as, having heard and seen them from the start, amidst such a hugely differing environment (physically and mentally), Im not even sure comparative grounds exist. >I'm only just starting to really get into the bulk of KC out there, and I'm >finding each one more inspiring than the last. I've introduced the rest of >the guys in my band to KC and they've all accepted with open arms, which is >great. ..which leads me to suspect my whole curiosity is moot and the real point is a kindredness of aesthetic. >I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems one of the nuances of prog >listners is that many of the less optimistic believe themselves to be a >dying breed, when it is very definite that they are not. Im not so sure, given the impossibility of the groups to achieve what ELP, Yes & the others once did. Such instances seem to indicate far less a public acceptance. >The definition of 'prog' as the music to get stoned to the first time - >offered by another ET reader who's name escapes me - is now the very same >definition I use myself. No offense, but getting stoned has no context to anything. People who listen to disco and C&W get stoned for their musics as well. I was going to say the only music listeners dont get stoned to would be easy listening...but then they do too, on alcohol. >It might be my youthful inexperience, but all the more I'm hearing older >prog listeners complaining how MTV etc. 'ruined' music as an artform, and >honestly to me it all seems quite silly. Well, youre missing the experiential contrast is all. >There is no-one forcing you to watch MTV, and there are still heaps of >non-commercial artists out there, prying their wares. All it takes is a bit >of looking, and a bit of optimism. That one can change the channel does not mitigate the absolute tripe that MTV is. Even when you change the channel, its still crap, youre just not viewing it is all. And the phrase you wanted is plying their wares. >Devin Towsend for one has been a man who played what he wanted to play, >with no MTV poison and managed to surivive, releasing some damn good music >along the way. Okay, but I dont see his success relevance to MTVs being crap. >I'm not saying that the people of ET are nothing but old whingers, far from >that... Whats a whinger? >But more often than not I skim over posts about people complaining about >how they didn't get their tickets for so and so, or the music was too loud >at this gig etc... Fair enough, and quite similar to some of us who get tired of endless semantic masturbating about what rhapsodic ecstasies aficionados swooned into because Tony Levin glanced their way during a gig, etc. Still, its expected, and theyre allowed; I guess others should be granted the same privilege. You might want to consider just skipping over it, theres a LOT of gratuitous burbling in ET. >Yet again, it might just be my youthful stupidity, but isn't it the guys >like Fripp who are making the music, and we the people who are along for >the ride? I can't imagine it's heartening for those guys to hear people >complaining that they couldn't see him on stage or whatever, and as Devin >says so well in Terria (go buy it), "Music? Well it's just entertainment >folks!". Well, Fripp himself has said, more than once, that he gets insufficient feedback from the audience (I imagine he means INTELLIGENT feedback) and he sure as hell doesnt see music as JUST entertainment, not by a LONG shot, so Im not sure just how Id want to credit Devins sagacity. >Anyhow, enough of the hypocrite whining about the whiners... I agree. >Music is fun! Make it, listen to it, study it, analyze it, just please >don't pick it - and the people that make it - to pieces, or there'll be nothing left for the rest of us! If we can make it, listen to it, study it, analyze it...how does that NOT include picking it to pieces? To quote you: just change the channel, therell still be plenty left over. -Mark Tucker- p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 8:50:00 -0600 From: vze29qmp at verizon dot net Subject: Show Length I was just curious how long the entire show is. In other words, for a scheduled 8:00 start time, what time does the show actually start and let out. This would account for delays as well. Thanks, Bob Gottesman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:58:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Sheridan Subject: Since You Asked! >From: Kissman24 at aol dot com >Subject: Steely Dan Ear Candy... > >P.S.-I'm also curious to know what are some of your >favorite KC albums, and some of your favorite albums >of all time? Any takers? I love Steely Dan; great playing, inventive progressions, some nice quirks and twists. Fave KC albums: "Red" and "Discipline" Fave All-time Albums: The Who - Quadrophenia Genesis - Selling England by the Lb. The Stones - Exile on Main Street The Replacements - Pleased to Meet Me Mick Taylor - Mick Taylor Tommy Bolin - Teaser Alphonse Mouzon - Mind Transplant Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffitti Procol Harum - A Salty Dog Fleetwood Mac - the Boston Box The Allman Brothers - Eat A Peach Zephyr - Live The Sex Pistols - Never Mind The Bollocks Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath Camel - The Snow Goose Yes - Relayer and so on...so many great ones out there...Jim S. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:13:53 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: Collector's Club - unimpressive? I saw a post in another forum, and felt compelled to reply. In case anyone asks about the KC Collector's Club, what to expect, and whether to join, may I suggest this as an explanation a little less formal than the DGM description. At 02:10 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, you wrote: > > I'm a member of the King Crimson Collector's Club > > and haven't really been all that impressed with it. I am an original member of the KC Collector's Club. Am I "impressed"? Yes. Would every KC fan be so impressed? Undoubtedly not. In essence it is exactly like being a member of one of these lists, except that instead of trading for various ROIOs you buy them. Now this might sound like the bad old days (selling bootlegs?), but for your money you do get the best possible recording of the gig, complete with professional packaging and notes (and the artists do at least get a few pennies for their efforts). Few artists have so many fans that so totally disagree over what they like about the band as KC. Few artists (other than David Bowie) have gone through so many clearly defined and integrated musical periods between which the styles have so abruptly changed. "In The Court...", "Larks' Tongues In Aspic", and "Discipline" sound like the same band about as much as "Ziggy Stardust", "Low", and "Let's Dance" sound like the same artist. Bands/artists like these often find that, while there are fans that like all (or most) of their careers, they also have bands of fans who really zoom in on one period, and may be either indifferent or outright hostile to another period. KC fits this perfectly; for every fan who likes the entire history, there is one who likes only the original 1969 lineup, or only the 1972-1974 lineup, or the 80's lineup. The Club covers all phases of the band's career; so if there is a period you are not fond of, you will from time to time get CDs that are of no interest to you at all. In other words, if you feel the 72-74 band was the "real" KC, you may be unimpressed with the club simply because the majority of the releases will not cover that period. But in the end, it is a (legit) bootleg club, and when you collect boots you know you will experience everything from the sublime to the gross - both in terms of sound quality and performance. You know that most of the boots you get will probably get played only once or twice; only a handful will make your "regular rotation", so to speak. But you get them anyway. Why? Well, some pieces just sound best live. Or, you never know when you'll find a lead or improvisation that touches your very soul. Or, you can hear a song evolving, its composition changing as it is performed over time. Or, you might hear a practice/recording session that clearly defines whether a band is building up or breaking down. All these things are present in the KC Club. But you must have the collector's/fanatic's mindset toward an artist that would drive you to boots in the first place. You must be someone who is not satisfied with just the perfected, mass-market releases. As far as the releases themselves, while I certainly have my own favorites (and non-favorites), I believe they have very well represented the band (bands?) in all their warts and glories. If you have that mindset toward the entire history of KC I mentioned earlier, while you will undoubtedly will have your own likes and dislikes, I honestly don't think you would be unimpressed. But if you don't feel that way toward KC, then don't waste your money - because that's exactly what you will have felt you've done. If you are a casual KC fan, the Club is not for you. But I am a KC fanatic (second only to Floyd), so this to me is well worth it. Bottom line - for hard-core fans only, like any other ROIOs. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:09:14 +1100 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: vehicular comparison test All this here talk has got me thinking... It is my opinion that there are two possible bases for musical construction. 1: where the act is a vehicle for the expression of the musician(s), and 2; where the musician(s) are the vehicle for the expression of the act. In the first model the skill/passion/ability(etc) of the musician(s) are very much the focus for the creation of music, whilst in the second model the act becomes the focus. For me a perfect example of the difference between the two models can be found by comparing side A of THE NICE's ArsLongaVitaBrevis LP with ELPs BrainSaladSurgery LP, with Keith Emerson being the focal "link". The former LP (to me) comes across as the work of an act (particularly the Little Arabella/Daddy, Where Did I Come From?/Happy Freuds triptych) and is definable as being a work of a *group* with a spirit of "Niceness" about it. The latter LP (to me) comes across as being the combined effort of 3 individuals who coincidentally all play in the same group. So side A of ArsLongaVitaBrevis can be said to be an example of model 1, whereas BrainSaladSurgery can be said to be an example of model 2. Note 1: these are not value judgements. Note 2: Feel free to disagree with me and abuse me for my ignorance. I am curious as to how ETers would define Crim with these models (or any others that might be proposed). It has been said by some that KC is a vehicle for the music of Robert Fripp, I disagree entirely. I feel that 90% of KC product has an unidentifiable and undefinable, intangible element of... err... "Crimness" about it, and always has. Yes, RF has always acted as executive director (if you will allow such a term) of KC and has used this position to redefine KCs lineup and direction in the past, but I believe that this is because he remains fully in touch with the wholeness of the spirit of King Crimson rather than because he is the "leader" or "star" of the group. Yes, sometimes the product can be a little indulgent, but I believe the indulgence is generally for the purposes of the creation of the song, rather than the boosting of the credibility of any individual member of KC (ie. sometimes musically indulgent, but never self indulgent). In these cases (Fracture is a good example) I would say that King Crimson (as a whole) is the vehicle for the piece of music, not the musician using King crimson as a vehicle for his ego. There are some exceptions. Like, say, the Inner Garden tracks from THRAK, which to me lack that element of Crimness which defines a piece as being a King Crimson track. Maybe that's why we have never heard them live. (afaik) Something to ponder. Cheers, O! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:15:10 +1100 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: who was the witch? Quick query... Who the hell is/was the "witch" that is mentioned in the YPG to KC scrapbook? The reference is that after the return from the U.S. of KC following the "Earthbound" tour, RF mentions to a magazine (can't remember which one... NME??) that he has brought back a "witch" from America and is cutting an album with her (1972?) Does this album exist? This has been bugging me for years! Can anyone answer me? Cheers, O! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:55:13 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: OT - RIP George Harrison :( :( This isn't a Beatles forum, but how can you not say something about someone without whom the music we love may have never had the chance to get heard? All rock music owes a great debt to George. "With our love, with our love We can change the world" In his next incarnation, may he find his words finally coming true. All condolences to his family, friends, and the millions (billions?) his music touched. Nor should we forget that it was his Concert For Bangla Desh that first showed how the world could "come together" (as John would say) through the power of music to help others on a large scale. We have become accustomed to superstar charity events (Live Aid, the WTC concert, etc) - they are all his children. The music, the memories, the hope and idealism - thank you, George. We will miss you. :( :( Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:26:07 +0000 From: Mr Tea Subject: Goodbye, George. Well, he wasn't strictly 'prog' and I can't think of any connection with KC, except that both feature in my record collection, but this still seems like a good kind of place to wish George Harrison a peaceful, loving and prosperous afterlife. Thank you, George. Like other folks all around the world, I shall be dusting off my old boxed set of 'All Things Must Pass' and giving it a whirl this evening. And probably wondering why it's been so long since I played it last... Cheers Mr Tea -- "life is a temporary thing" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:49:54 +0200 From: "serge" Subject: George Harrsion But above all Harrison will be remembered for his music. He once said: "I think people who can live their life in music are telling the world: 'You can have my love, you can have my smiles. Forget the bad parts, you don't need them. "'Just take the music, the goodness, because it's the very best,' and it's the part I give most willingly." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:24:15 +0100 From: George Koopman Subject: shows per country? > Since it's impossible to tell what country the subscribers with the > ".com"-extention (and such) are in, I'd like to propose the following: > KC should do shows per country compared to the number of subscribers. So, > if they do like 18 shows in the States, they should do 160 in the > Netherlands (good for me, I'll visit each and everyone of them)! And, yes > Andrew, 59 shows in South Africa! > Or one can do it w/ the # of subscribers in relationship w/ the total # of > inhabitants in a country. That would mean 4521 shows in the Netherlands! > Okay! (And 347 shows in Micronesia, RF can play behind a palmtree. And > Josette, what would Trey wear overthere????) > BTW, there was something missing in ET900, but it took me some time to > find out. Now I know: it was a newsletter without a single (in)famous > Kris-M-post! This leads me to the conclusion that he must be seriously > ill, please join me in wishing him all the best and get well soon. ;^) > Greetings, George > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:11:22 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: ..Favorites.. Favorite albums of all time...? -As one of my favorite CRIMSON albums, I'd say Discipline and ITCOTCK. -After a lot of thought, I've decided that ANY album from Steely Dan is one of my favorites...Includes, but not limited to, Aja, Pretzel Logic, Two Against Nature, etc. -Blind Guardian's Nightfall In Middle Earth is one of my favorite albums of all time, too. Nice and heavy, but beatufiul is come places like The Eldar. -Hmmm...trying to think of a good Sabbath album to stick here...Well, they're ALL good, that's what makes it so hard! Maybe I'll get back to ya' on this... -Creatures Of The Night by KISS....KISS are my favorite band of all time...KC are up there, SD are up there, but KISS are the -Number One- favorite band on my list, and this is, to me, their best album. -Ozzy's Diary Of A Madman. -Deep Purple's Machine Head...Dude, EVERY song off of this album is amazing...2 words: SPACE TRUCKIN'. Also my favorite Purple line-up. ...and I'm sure there's more. Favorite SONGS of all time, anyone? Here are mine... -The Night Watch, by none other than our beloved King Crimson! This song is AWESOME...Oh yeah, crankin' this one out in my room with my black light...Amazing. -The 20-minute version of Space Truckin' that appears on Made In Japan...FANTASTIC. -Grand Funk's version of Inside Lookin' Out, the one that appears on their first live album (with the black cover, Grand Funk LIVE). Killer track...Never heard the original though. -KISS' C'mon And Love Me. Killer, bluesy track. My favorite version is on ALIVE! Nice and raw. -...Phew, here we go with the Steely Dan again. Umm...I'm thinkin' Deacon Blues. This one changes every day though. Love Gaslighting Abbie, too. -Ted Nugent's Stranglehold. 'Nuff said. -Deep Purple's Lazy. Have you guys seem them do this live? I have...twice :) Killer tune! -Iron Maiden, Hallowed Be Thy Name. MAIDEN ROCK! Love this song, Bruce Dickinson's voice blows me away on this track. Holds that note forever... ...so many songs, so little time... ---Mike "They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast, you gotta ride it well."-Black Sabbath, Heaven and Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 00:02:12 +0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: Prog Rock or Progressing Rock It seems that the term "Prog rock" is one that is associated with the 1969-1977-ish era and the bands, mostly English, that flourished at that time. It was a wonderful time for music, wasn't it. KC, Hatfield & the North, Magma, Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Gentle Giant and the bunch certainly opened up my ears as well as many others. Who has progressed since then? Perhaps the groups who have should be noted as "Progressing rock." that might sort them out from the previous bunch, especially those who want to live off the fat of previously creative days (Yo! Keith Emerson. You listening?). I find it interesting that around the same time as prog rock explosion on the east side of the Atlantic (from where I live) that the marriage of Jazz and rock began as well. The grandaddy of them all, Miles Davis, and his "children," Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Wayne Shorter, Josef Zawinul and Tony Williams spawned what would be the greatest revolution in American music which would parallel prog rock - an initial period of great creativity and risk taking followed by imitators who probably meant well and then ending with a marketplace created for very soft, watered down versions of that type of music. Hmmmm, interesting. For me, I like the originals and those who keep progressing, like KC, even if they don't progress in a direction of your favorite incarnations of the band. Dan "Do girls think less of boys who allow themselves to be kissed? Even thought they go out with boys like me, don't they always marry the other kind?" Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:49:34 -0500 From: "Blake" Subject: Re: Comments on the current tour In ET #901 Art Cohen writes: >>Even though Mr. Fripp seemed to be having a wonderful time last nite, how >>much longer can we really expect him to tour? His age is a # of yrs older >>than mine & another 6 year wait would really put him up there. I'm not >>saying he's not physically up to it(altho that would be a >>consideration)it's more mental & w/all one has to deal w/when "heading up >>a band " it would be hard going at say 60+! >Geez, give the old fart *some* credit, willya? I spent the last weekend >going to see Bob Dylan (twice) and Phil Lesh (once; he's the ex-bassist of >the Grateful Dead). Both of them are over 60, and both of them, I'd wager, >did more drugs on a good weekend in their youth than Fripp has done in his >entire life. Yet both of them tour relentlessly (much more than Crimson) >and Dylan is selling out large hockey rinks on his own for the first time >in years (and both of them, I might add, stand up for the duration of >their concerts, and, in Dylan's case, even dance a little!). If I remember correctly, even when the "old fart" was touring with his dance band (circa The League of Gentlemen), he always had his fanny firmly planted on his stool. Blake Nelson bnelson at information-integrity dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:10:01 -0800 From: Robert MacCoun Subject: Trey Gunn's new live cd I haven't seen much discussion of Trey's new live CD. I highly recommend it. As many have noted, Trey's contributions to Guitar Craft, The First Day, Damage, and Thrak were hard to pick out, buried in the mix or lost in the cacophony. For me, he really came into his own in the ProjeKcts -- indeed, he was the most consistently interesting element. (Fripp got trapped in symmetrical scale hell for much of that period.) His solo studio albums have been excellent. But Live Encounter is the best yet, featuring the strongest compositions from the past two cds in definitive versions with outstanding solos and ensemble work by Trey, Warr guitarist Joe Mendelson, guitarist Tony Geballe, and the amazing drummer Bob Muller. If you haven't heard Trey's solo works, I'd suggest a rough idea would be to cross 1980s Crimson a la Sheltering Sky and Sartori in Tangier with ProjeKct Four -- and add a dash of Bill Laswell. But it is a much more original sound than that implies. More nuance and less X-Team testosterone than Construction of Light or Thrak. There's more info at http://www.treygunn.com/word/liveencounter3.html. (Note that I don't know or work for Trey.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:02:17 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: Comments on KC's recent gigs, & St. Louis concert. I've come across some recent comments on the St. Louis KC gig & other KC & JPJ related comments i'd like to respond to: 1st of all I highly reccomend that anyone thinking about attending this recent tour that does'nt already have tickets to MAKE SURE TO GO! If you can get your tickets at the venue's boxoffice as I/we did, it's cheaper than going through any service, and in MHO a better chance of getting WHAT you want. I realize this is not always possible, but you owe it to yourself to GO!! In response to what Art Cohen said about my comments on Fripp "possibly" being too old to tour again as the "leader" of KC "if" it took another 6 yrs. If you carefully read my post you'll notice that I said Robert could more than likely handle another tour in his 60's, physically, but my idea was that "mentally" it might be too much. 1st I don't consider Robert an "old fart" by any means; I think he's in much better shape physically & mentalily & still will be in another 6 yrs. than 99% of musicians that age. AS far as comparisons to Bob Dylan & Phil Lesh, that's a totally different situation in both cases. Dylan to my knowledge does'nt have to do much more than "possibly" rehearse w/his touring back-up band, (if he even does that) & isn't in the situation of having to play virtuostically complex music every nite, and having to play & interact musically w/3 other virtuoso's at the same time nite after nite!(Hey a UK link:)Add to that Robert has to at LEAST, "oversee" the aspects of the tour as far as what cities/countries they'll play, deal w/the different sound at each venue(Robert & Co. do long soundchecks at each place often what 1 might consider short concerts!)& neither Dylan or Phil Lesh have to oversee anywhere NEAR the amount of material that is on the different cd's that Robert & KC find suitable to release for just the tour, & i'm not taking into consideration the material to be played! Dylan basically lets the people backing him up know what he(Dylan)will be doing & any small changes in the songs. While Lesh might play more complex music than Dylan, from what I know it's still far less challenging that what KC play & is more jam oriented. Being a musician I know it's sometimes mind taxing to do "good" extended jams but lets not confuse what Robet & KC do to what say Dylan or Lesh does. To Dan who also posted in ET 901, you don't have to worry, or be disapointed, because i'm telling you now you won't hear Schizoidman on this tour!(I love it & would'nt mind hearing it too, but I don't believe KC has done that song since the 95 tour)As far as being able to meet members of KC/JPJ, your chances are probably higher at meeting someone from JPJ than Crimson, altho Pat was pretty accessable here & some folks got other members of KC to sign stuff talk w/them here & other cities too. All depends I guess? To JB Anderton, who was here for the Pageant/St. Louis gig; the guy playing Chapman stick is bassist extraordinare, Nick Beggs who's played on alot of stuff, but check out ex-FZ alumni Warren Cuccurullo's(Guitarist)cd "Thanx 2 Frank" to hear how great he is on bass & stick, this cd also feature's FZ almuni; drummer extraordinare Vinney Colauita & is possibly the best 3 peice outfit i've heard in 10 years. BTW, a friend who attended the Pageant gig & was possibly 1 of the 2 young women you noticed at the front of the stage waving her hands/body said whenever Nick jumped about or bent over he was totally exposed under his Tartan! Also, while it may have sounded like Jones was playing all the high parts on the Zep/other tunes, the device he was playing was actually an 8 string bass set-up like a Hawaiian or pedal steel guitar(just no pedal)& while he may have played some high notes w/this, Beggs was handling most of the high value notes on stick. While you surely enjoyed what was a great KC performance(btw it was 2 hrs my friend timed it & encores & JPJ played an hour)and had a great seat, you (IMHO) would have been better served having a floor seat, & being on the 1st level, as sights & sounds were fantastic there. While JPJ's sound was awful no matter where 1 was, the sound improved almost magically when KC played. Lastly, to recent poster Paul MacFarlane, where did you live before St. Louis? I have trouble w/your categorization of St. Louis as a "silly, backwater town". As a St. Louisan & musician/frequent night-lifer, I only have to mention the Soulard area, Delmar Loop, & Laclede's Landing as great places to be entertained, see nationally known bands/entertainers of all types, and has everything but "strip-clubs" & your assortment for those is just 5 mins away in East St. Louis. I'm not mentioning all the other great things St. Louis offers, & while i'm sure there are "better" cities in the world, i'd like to know where you were before that spoiled you on St. Louis? I like it here. If I had a fortune, "maybe" i'd choose another place to live but being here satisfies my needs just fine. Thanks for the time, Steven "I'm standing in the sky on a roof of a glass & steel office tower in Rotterdam, Holland. There are 21 floors of air between me & the concrete pavement below. I am about to do what I do best, jump." Jackie Chan but it apply's to KC beginning a song onstage. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:25:19 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Beware the Brown Acid Sometimes people don't appreciate irony, humor, or sarcasm, even if it walks right up and bites them on the-- well, at the risk of not passing through Toby's filter, I won't finish that thought. In ET #901, atombomb33 at yahoo dot com went off on the whole notion of how fed up he was with all this talk of being on drugs while listening to prog. As the person who originally posited the definition of the music as "music to get stoned for the first time to.", I thought it was clear that this was neither an endorsement of drug use, nor an assessment of the music, but rather a comment on classification and definition. The point being, any music that makes a first-time stoner go, "whoa!", is probably prog. The leap from this, to the supposition that drugs are either endorsed or necessary to enjoy music, might lead me to say something like, "Dude, lighten up, get a sense of humor." Except that I NEVER say "dude." Usually when I make this comment to people, they laugh. "Oh yeah, I remember my first time; Pink Floyd's 'Animals' still scares me." That, from a professional colleague just this week. He has a wife, two kids, a good job, and never does drugs (although, like pretty much everyone else who was a teenager in the 70's, he smoked pot during the heyday of whatever the heck 'prog" is.") NO ONE was saying that you have to be on drugs to enjoy this music. It was a joke, sarcasm, humor, wry. Get it? Or maybe you just had to be there. I am seeing Crim 4th row center in 2 weeks. Without drugs. (Well, I'll be without drugs. They can speak for themselves on the matter.) Well, I'll probably down a latte beforehand, but I don't really count that. And I sure won't be having a beer at the Beacon; the very thought of it makes me gag (if you've been to the Beacon, you understand.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:38:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: D.A.R.E. (drugs are really excellent) "Listen to when you get stoned" is one of the most half-assed definitions of progressive rock ever posted on E.T. To say that drug use has no place in rock music appreciation, though, is pushing it - especially if any talented composers ever wrote while under the influence. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Drug use has destroyed many lives but also helped many to SURVIVE. If we read between the lines of politically correct drug use edicts we see: How to succeed when there isn't anything wrong in the first place ------------------------------ From thoward at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sat Dec 1 03:42:20 2001 Received: from m1 ([130.88.192.2] helo=m1.cs.man.ac.uk) by mailhost with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #3) id 16A12i-0000c6-00 for et at mailhost dot cs dot man dot ac dot uk; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 03:42:20 +0000 Received: from beryl.propagation.net by m1.cs.man.ac.uk (8.8.8/AL/MJK-2.0) id DAA25842; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:42:18 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by beryl.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27914 for et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:41:59 -0600 Received: from hotmail.com (f67.law14.hotmail.com [64.4.21.67]) by beryl.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27892 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:41:58 -0600 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:42:16 -0800 Received: from 165.121.117.252 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 03:42:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [165.121.117.252] To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Cc: progdawg at hotmail dot com Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:42:13 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Thanx! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2001 03:42:16.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B902590:01C17A1A] Toby: Thanks for the extensive reply. I literally had no idea what I might be doing wrong, as, of about a dozen sent, only 3-4 of my posts had been printed prior to my inquiry re: Kris M. I've already received two dozen e-mails from friends, other critics and unknowns, thanking me for asking the question - apparently, quite a few people were highly mystified as to why their posts were also not making it in (apparently, several unsubscribed ET in frustration). They're now are gratified to know the lowdown. As to the unpaid work you mention that you and others do in ET, I most definitely appreciate the situation you're in: I've reviewed for Sound Choice, i/e, Zazz, Ice River Gazette, Progression and other magazines AND published my own crit-rag, Camera Obscura (for 10 years) and never received a cent (Camera Obscura barely broke even). Bands were signed to labels on the strength of my critiques and ECM Records wanted to use my reviews of their New Music Series (Kurtag, Schnittke, Mompou, Kanchelli, etc.) for international advertising print bytes (unfortunately, my editors went insane with jealousy and the critiques never saw print, causing my years-long departure from the prog crit-field), yet, due to the peculiarities of the genre, I got nada. Not a problem: you understand that going in and do it for love anyway. Between you and I, much of what makes it to ET is just embarassingly adolescent and "idolatrous" yatter, but there are always those few posts that make the reading worthwhile (as well, I've gotten a number of interesting replies from my few ET posts, some of which greatly illuminated my confoundment as to just what the problem with the excruciatingly puerile "What Is Prog???" nonsense begins with: a near-complete lack of knowledge of jazz) and...nearly 900 issues? Jeezus Keerist, man, how long have you guys been doing this? Doesn't matter, any forum that whips up enthusiasm for prog music is a good avenue - somehow, the genre needs to make it more pronouncedly in the market, and it seems to me that it's enthusiasm that will do it...hopefully. This is a missive to you, just to touch base after your answer, but if you want to publish it, fine, it's not a problem o me wither way. Just wanted to let you know that your answer relieved a bunch of people. -marc- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:37:05 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: GIG REVIEW: King Crimson at PromoWest Pavilion, Columbus, Ohio 11/29 King Crimson reigns. Something new is happening. Of course it's probably happening for a while but I didn't or couldn't know about it. I read the DGM GB. Same show- opposing reviews. I wasn't blown away by KC2K and 2001 shows in Nashville and Cincinnati and the Cleveland show 2000 was better and showed some potential for new directions. Well, for what it's worth, King Crimson is here now, full of fury and power. Hear that? The Columbus performance immediately had me thinking, "Who are these guys, who is this band?". Listen to this: You have never heard this band. Please do yourself a favor and hear this band. The sound mix was stellar. Not too loud either. I fixed myself next to the sound board, where I could stand without buggin' anybody. Trey absolutely slayed me. He cut me open and my bowels dropped to the floor. It felt good. This was not the hesitant, careful, self-conscious band trying out new material. This was as polished and tight a performance as I have ever heard Crimson. Ade's voice was back and great. Pat is right there sounding more like Bruford than ever (Ha Ha, laugh, laugh). Robert is Robert and must have rubbed on gobs of arthritis ointment because his fingers were dancing. I can only describe it as fish in water. This music is where Crimson lives. The band knows the stuff and is able to let the good fairy add the secret ingredient. You ask: was it just John who was in some way ready for this music? Maybe. I don't know (I had Gumbo for dinner). But I thank Captain Kangaroo that whatever it was, it all came together in Columbus. The new music is new and wonderful. Go back and read that last sentence again. I did hear the song Level 5 previously and it had nowhere near the energy and refinement as it did last night. That is the only song that has similar elements (IMHO) as Larks or FraKCtured (which might have some fans thinking KC is stuck on one thing). KC is not stuck anywhere. Virtuous Circle: Oh-My-Gawd! EleKCtric: Help Me! Really, wait until you hear ElecKtrick. Even Thrush has evolved, beyond words. Trey gives no shelter. On the drive home I could listen to nothing but silence for the first hour, then some Christmas carols on the radio, then the Level 5 CD. GADZOOKS! The secret ingredient is in there! The sound quality and mix is superb. The Great Deceiver is no longer my favorite live recording of King Crimson. I hope you "get" this music. It got me last night and I'm running away to join the circus. Best regards to all, ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #902 ********************************