Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #900 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 900 Wednesday, 28 November 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: From the moderator, HTML posts KCCC cd's for sale QUIT CRYING!!! Re: Crimson T-shirts Foreign tours maybe ...? Band gear questions KC sound quality GIG REVIEW: Madison, WI 11/23/01 GIG REVIEW: St. Paul and Madison GIG REVIEW: St. Louis show review GIG REVIEW: 11/25 St. Louis Gig, ect. GIG REVIEW: Crims in St. Louis (quick review) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed 28 Nov 2001 08:16:05 -0800 (PST) From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: From the moderator, HTML posts ETers, please note that we cannot accept posts written only in HTML. Our automated software cannot handle it. Such posts will just vanish -- sorry. Please set your email software to send plain ASCII text when posting to ET. This isn't any kind of dogma or anything -- it's just a practicality. ET producion is not totally automated, but much of it is, and with the current levels of traffic we couldn't survive any other way! So your cooperation is appreciated. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: Man In Space Subject: KCCC cd's for sale Hi, I'm selling two KCCC cd's, 'Live In Central Park '74' and 'Live In Detroit '71('2CD)'. These are two discs I forgot to warn dgm not to send me. The first is real bootleg quality(for the hardcore freaks), the second sounds very good. Since I hardly listen to the old stuff anymore, and I already spent waaay to much money on KC, and I'd like to renew my Club subscription for the upcoming Level 5 Cd, I'm selling the two formentioned at $13 each incl posting. I must say, I wasn't very familiar with the 'Boz Crim', but this recording shows a very good band (especially Wallace). I've read a lot of Bozbashing, which seems a fashionable thing under Crim fans, and I must say, he deserves better : his singing is good, and his bassplaying is ok (which may pale to Tony's or John's). I dare any Boz basher to do a better job. slu, Jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:17:11 EST From: CARROBSON at aol dot com Subject: QUIT CRYING!!! I have never felt the need to post to the forum until now-I have read a lot of petty bickering and overall nit picking on this forum but I have never been as disgusted as I am now-Please stop crying about the music being too loud-you all sound like a bunch of old ladies. Suck it up!!! It's a Rock-n-Roll show. I know that most Crim fans are older than me but MY GOD do you have to act your age? Why don't you sit back and enjoy rather than complaining about Fripp not being visible, people in the crowd saying things that don't live up to your stuffy standards, or ,god forbid, the music being too loud. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:47:40 -0800 From: "Erwin Bush" Subject: Re: Crimson T-shirts Kris M wrote: >I dunno about you, but I've always thought that having the face from >ITCOTCK would be great for the front of a shirt, with the lyrics "The fate >of all mankind, I see, is in the hands of fools." from Epitaph on the back. >I think it'd work! :) Not quite what you're asking for, but DGM sells a ITCOTCK t-shirt; go to the DGM Shop: http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com/cgi-bin/order.cgi and select the T-Shirts Catalog. However, the description they have currently listed sounds different than the ones I've previosuly purchased. Mine have the cover "Schizoid Face" on front, and the "Moonchild" image fron the interior on the back. I've had them for a while, and I have *never* gotten as many questions about anything I've worn before -- most from folks who don't even know who King Crimson is, they're just struck by the image! Erwin erwin at erwinbush dot com Almost at http://www.erwinbush.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:21:01 +0200 From: "Ahimsa Consulting" Subject: Foreign tours maybe ...? How many subscribers to ET does it take to convince KC that a tour to a foreign country - e.g. South Africa (hint hint) - is justified and well worth the effort?? There are, according to this list, 59 subscribers - that's one row in the making. Welcome ZA Krimsonites!!! Andrew > > AM Armenia - 12 subscribers > AR Argentina - 35 subscribers > AS American Samoa - 5 subscribers > AT Austria - 9 subscribers > AU Australia - 69 subscribers > BE Belgium - 11 subscribers > BG Bulgaria - 13 subscribers > BO Bolivia - 7 subscribers > BR Brazil - 43 subscribers > CA Canada - 81 subscribers > CC Cocos (Keeling) Isl. - 5 subscribers > CH Switzerland - 8 subscribers > CL Chile - 24 subscribers > CO Colombia - 12 subscribers > CR Costa Rica - 24 subscribers > CX Christmas Island - 8 subscribers > CZ Czech Republic - 11 subscribers > DE Germany - 105 subscribers > DK Denmark - 17 subscribers > EE Estonia - 34 subscribers > ES Spain - 60 subscribers > FI Finland - 43 subscribers > FM Micronesia - 1 subscribers > FR France - 56 subscribers > GR Greece - 25 subscribers > HR Croatia - 22 subscribers > HU Hungary - 19 subscribers > ID Indonesia - 13 subscribers > IE Ireland - 9 subscribers > IL Israel - 14 subscribers > IN India - 10 subscribers > IS Iceland - 8 subscribers > IT Italy - 129 subscribers > JP Japan - 59 subscribers > KR Korea (South) - 1 subscribers > LB Lebanon - 10 subscribers > LI Liechtenstein - 1 subscribers > LT Lithuania - 4 subscribers > LV Latvia - 14 subscribers > MX Mexico - 31 subscribers > NL Netherlands - 160 subscribers > NO Norway - 23 subscribers > NU Niue - 2 subscribers > NZ New Zealand - 69 subscribers > PE Peru - 4 subscribers > PK Pakistan - 18 subscribers > PL Poland - 75 subscribers > PT Portugal - 12 subscribers > PY Paraguay - 16 subscribers > QA Qatar - 9 subscribers > RO Romania - 15 subscribers > RU Russian Federation - 248 subscribers > SE Sweden - 28 subscribers > SG Singapore - 15 subscribers > SK Slovak Republic - 13 subscribers > SU Soviet Union - 2 subscribers > TO Tonga - 4 subscribers > UA Ukraine - 12 subscribers > UK United Kingdom - 415 subscribers > US United States - 18 subscribers > UY Uruguay - 7 subscribers > UZ Uzbekistan - 4 subscribers > VE Venezuela - 23 subscribers > ZA South Africa - 59 subscribers > > Others - 4143 > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:35:41 -0500 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Band gear questions I was wondering about a particular Fripp guitar sound: the chimey, open-sounding one he used for songs like Inner Garden and the arpeggio section of VROOOM (I'm referring to the versions that appear on the album THRAK here). It sounds like he has his guitar wired to sound like a single coil, being that it looks like a Les Paul (which has double coil pickups, normally), and I hear very heavy chorus or detuning effects. The stereo effect is awfully spacious, too. I know Fripp goes directly to the mixing board most of the time, so it's not an amp thing...any guesses about the source of this unique sound? Also, I wonder what Trey Gunn uses for distortion/overdrive? The wicked cool website guitargeek.com shows that he's hooked up to a Micro-Synth (for those weird touch-wah effects) a Line6 POD (so he can go into full-range speakers and sound like an amplifier), and a rack processor with guitar effects. All of these things are capable of overdrive, and I don't own any of them...however, I'd love to know what the hell he does in the 1995 Live in Japan video (during the little duet before "Elephant Talk") to make his Warr guitar suddenly go "bwwweeeaaoowwweeouuuuu" just by touching the string near the bridge! His solo sound is a very distinctive one, it has an almost vocal quality to it, as I attempted to demonstrate. (c: Do any musicians reading this own any of the above-mentioned effects devices? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:09:26 +0000 From: Jeremy Robinson Subject: KC sound quality >From Jeremy Robinson Have to agree with the comment about excessive volume at King Crimson gigs in the last ET. Saw the Crims in summer 2000 in London. Yes, they're gods who kick up a helluva storm; they make the other aging proggers (ELP, Yes, Genesis) look pretty feeble. But the sound quality at the London concert was way too high, muddy, incoherent. I know KC probably like to blast their audience away (I recall Fripp's comment about flattening the audience at some early Crim gig). But they do themselves no favours with bad sound. Consider someone like Stanley Kubrick (even more of a perfectionist than Fripp, I reckon, a virtuosic talent easily the equal of anyone in the rock world), who used to send out his lackeys around the globe to personally check projection standards and sound quality in theatres. I imagine Kubrick, or anyone who cares about sound and music, walking into the Crim gig and finding it unacceptable. It's pointless Fripp and the boys putting so much effort into performance (and they are utterly extraordinary live) if you can't hear the fucking thing! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:57:42 -0600 From: Patrick Logterman Subject: GIG REVIEW: Madison, WI 11/23/01 Well, this is hardly a review of the concert, but here are a few thoughts on the show. Set list looks almost identical to the one posted from St Paul two nights previous: Dangerous Curves TCOL Frying Pan Elekctric Thela Dinosaur Level 5 Virtous Circle ProsaKc Larks IV Deception of the Thrush Red I may have a couple of tunes swapped, but that looks accurate. Dangerous Curves is a great opener, building in volume and intensity as the song unfolds. Level Five is just stunning, starting with a crazy/bendy Middle Eastern lick (for lack of a better term) from Belew and shifting through some curious areas. At the time I thought Virtous Circle was part of Level Five but after listening to the new CD I gather they are separate songs. The two together ran about 15 minutes. The show seemed fairly short but halfway through Larks I was out of energy anyway. Deception of the Thrush is always interesting and Red is always welcome even if it is played with the house lights halfway up. Overall the band appeared to have plenty of spunk and be in good spirits and the sound was very good and at a perfect volume - loud, but not overly loud. Pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:08:57 -0600 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: St. Paul and Madison I was happy to see and hear King Crimson at the ballroom in St. Paul. I thought the sound was OK at both shows although different at each. The second show in Madison felt better. Probably because of my condition more than the venue, or the artists. Sometimes expectations benefit the listener. JPJ was a great primer, but I would have to agree with the sound criticism in their case. Rumbling, blaring, mushy and painful sometimes. KC must need Christmas money. I just can't figure out why they would tour now and delay work on the new music. However, Its always great to experience 'Real-Time' Criming. I would Love to hear more Crimprov, "Projects Rule". Maybe next time. The Barrymore Theater Madison has great micro-brews nearly worth the 5 hour road trip in itself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:35:18 -0800 From: Paul MacFarlane Subject: GIG REVIEW: St. Louis show review Wow. JPJ was his usual beaming, powerful, modest but rumbling zooming, confident self. The new stuff is amazing and I particularly love the song about him and his wife Mo, "Freedom Song." Krimso played flawlessly, great sound--not too loud-- not from my spot, anyway--but rumbling, dark, multi-colored jewels came streaming forth from the stage all night. Every number swept me off my feet to clouds of angels in a swirling, dynamic melange of delight. I was right in front of Trey and I saw nothing but smiles from everyone. Even Robert wore a near Buddha smile all night, nary a scowl and I must say the crowd was more appreciative than I once feared from this backwater town. Ade's voice was back in good form, though no Thela-- and he might have dropped another one, I forget. But I met Ade, Pat, Trey and Jonesy before the show and got autographs, pressed some godflesh and realized what charming, open, vulnerable, sweet people thay all are. Only wish I could have taken the whole gang out for dinner. Great show, great crowd, great eneregy, eclecticism and intensity. Another night that makes life seem easier to go with after. God bless you all. Paul MacFarlane St. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:18:20 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: GIG REVIEW: 11/25 St. Louis Gig, ect. This is my opinion/review of last nite's JPJ/KC Gig here.(IT'S LONG!!BE FOREWARNED!) Pls allow me to preface my review of the perfomance(s)at last evening's KC Gig with a little history. 1st off, I attended this show w/2 lifelong(over 30 years of friendship)friends & a NEW friend from the Chicago area who has thus far been to the Minneapolis-Madision & Chicago shows in the last week or so. Her name is Sarah, & Toby will undoubtedly know her as the NEW FAQ mistress. My friends & I are all "old geezer's"(all close to 50 yrs of age)& the 3 of us learned of KC at the same moment.A group of us had gathered at our local hangout, drinking beer & some smoking mind altering substances, the lot of us surrounding someone who owed a car w/an FM radio & the best speakers, as we often did. The 1st "progressive"(no pun intended)FM radio station here, KSHE began in 67, playing only the best "Hippie" music available, be it rock & roll/Hard Rock/Folk/Blues/along with a little bit of Soul music & other types. The station made it's mark by being ready/willing & able to play any song at any length, often entire albums.(Back to the KC thread)So it was late at nite at the end of 69 or beginning of 70 when we all were floored to hear the entire ITCOTCK album. My 2 friends and I went out the next day & scoured every record store within 20 miles of metropolitian St. Louis & were all able to purchase this amazing peice of vinyl history. The same 2 friends & I have attended every(7)King Crimson show in St. Louis, beginning in 72, then almost a yr to the month later in 73 & ect.ect. Which brings me to the show of last nite(11/25 at the Pageant)for which we gathered & met young(25)Sarah, had a few drinks & talked of all things Crimson, blah blah blah. We have heard KC at 5 different venues prior to last nite which was the 6th. The only slightly negitive KC show we attended was when they OPENED the HORDE Festival here in 95 or 96. Slightly negitive because "they" "were out of their element" by being far superior in talent/musicality, & only having slightly more than 1 hr to play(1 encore)but forced to open a "druggie" show. However that 60/70 mins was the musical highlight of the day/nite.Awesome soundboardman, great treatment of the mic'd instruments/vocals & pa sound especially for an "outdoor" setting. In other words, we had been spoiled by great soundboard work from 72 on. Being that there were 2 musicians & a person involved in the art of attempting to make differnt personel/bands sound their best at different types of venues; everything from a VFW hall to an outdoor Festival at Chuck Berry's Farm, & a true theatre(The Fox Theatre)to even a CAVE!(Yes Missouri is famous for our caves & a very sucessful band I was in PLAYED at this privately owned cave, whose natural floor was flatened & cemented to accomadate roller skating of all things, as well as wedding receptions & band gigs.The toughest sound situation i've encountered!)as well as someone who had been to 3 previous KC concerts on this tour, so this is a "hybrid" review, but IS MINE as i'm sure the others will write their own SHORTER reviews. The JPJ Orchestra opened of course and the 1st thing everyone of us noticed was, the sound level was such that it seemed NO-ONE needed hearing protection! So far Great! JPJ is a talented veteran & was intelligent enough to use someone as technically proficient(who also brings soul & LIFE to the band)as Nick Beggs to play Chapman Stick, & do the higher value notes, since there really is no guitar to speak of, save an electric Ukelele.(Actually 2, an acoustic hollow body w electric pickup & miked & a custom solid bodied Uke fed thru a Marshall stack)which Jones plays, along w/an electric 4 string bass & a custom(I believe it was an 8 string)flat bass, setup much as a Hawaiian or pedal steel guitar would be. The drummer(who's name escapes me)uses a conventional setup with a hand drum(played w/sticks or mallets)which was setup on a boom cymbal stand.(It was either a mondo tar drum or more likely a bodhran)The instant they began playing & it continued the entire hr. the sound was horrible! Muddy, no dymanics in sound variation at all, no mid range, no highs, just a terribly muddy wash! I DO NOT entirely blame this on the soundboard technician, as this appears to be Jones' techs & setup people, as well as Jones/Beggs & drummers fault as no instruments were properly miked! However, as a musician I know that even w/minimal mic coverage, the soundboard guy certainly could have done a better job on seperation & frequency, as the sound comming from the stage(when 1 stood close enuff to only hear what came from the amps & not the PA)was much better than what you heard when you were 20 to 50/75 feet away from the stage. Some good songs & 2 of the 3 musicians were quite talented. Nothing to write home about tho! After a 30 min tear down/new setup, the Kings took over the stage, and what a difference. 1st highly notable thing, Robert was as close to "center stage" as "i've" ever seen him, sitting on his stool 15 feet away from any curtain or partition he might hide behind!! Sarah had mentioned pre-show that the nite before in Chicago, Adrian had completely lost his voice, and avoided singing as much as possible. I believe she said he completely stopped after having trouble w/the last song he vocalized on! So I/we were quite suprisingly pleased when he began singing after a couple of instrumentals, & his voice was at least 75%!! The men seemed to be very animated throughout, and played w/vigor, and after playing probably 4 very recognizable 'newer" tunes, Sarah(all of us)were delighted to hear them play at least 3 songs that had not been done in the concerts she had been to already, & songs I have not seen posted by anyone yet!(Well maybe Virtuous Circle)but the others seemed to be new to the set list.(I'm sure Sarah will post the list)While the sound was 100% better for KC, it still was not up to par. Surely, the Pageant(which has a corregated/metal roof w/little acoustical treatment that I could see)has to assume part of the blame here, as even tho it is a brand new buidling constructed just for musical performances, & has nice ammenities such as a seperate bar area, but also a huge 1 for the concert side, vg bathroom facilities which are quite large enough for a full house & toilets & sinks that have sensors that flush themselves. As far as the stage goes, it is quite spacious-side to side & front to back & approx. 9 feet high. A Nice stage lighting setup suspended from the ceiling, but no suspened pa system. The floor for ALL shows, seems to be set up for gen. add. as there is a large area on the floor for standing & moving about as well as small tables further back(however people sitting on the floor w/people standing have NO sight lines.) About 80 feet back there are 2 more levels w/tables from which you can view everything. The balcony appears nice as well,formed in a horseshoe, but little space from balcony eve to walls. While the building is setup well, it seems to be lacking in the acoustic planning. What i'd like to know(?)is WHO is Crimson's new soundboard gent? He certainly does'nt come close to his predecessor, and I doubt he'll be around after this tour!(If there ever is another tour? Even though Mr. Fripp seemed to be having a wonderful time last nite, how much longer can we really expect him to tour? His age is a # of yrs older than mine & another 6 year wait would really put him up there. I'm not saying he's not physically up to it(altho that would be a consideration)it's more mental & w/all one has to deal w/when "heading up a band " it would be hard going at say 60+! To end up the performance/sound problems/building rant, I would have to give the "boy's" an A grade for volume level, very acceptable(And altho I spent alot of time next to STACKS of suped-up 200 watt Marshall's & huge booming 200 watt Acoustic(brand name)bass amps & all sorts of other high volume setup's, since i've been playing; my hearing is quite good altho 1 cannot do this for years w/o expecting & suffering SOME damage)no one I spoke w/wore protection. The performance itself would also receive an A even tho Adrian did delete some lyrics, everyone delivered the usual amazing effort. The venue would get a C+, & the soundman a C, they did'nt replace the 1 that did that work for yrs w/someone even close. Overall, I would reccomend everyone w/tickets to upcomming shows to look forward to a very enjoyable show, & not worry too much about the volume. For posters Jordan in ET 898 & Kris M a coupla issues back, there was a good sized area set aside for merchandise, & while there was quite a bit offered in shirts(not as many great 1's as I saw in 95)there was much more of an array of CD's for $20 unsigned & $25 autographed. Many Crimson offerings(alot of "live" stuff)cd's by Pat & Trey some Fripp stuff, I don't recall seeing any of Ade's stuff, then you have JPJ's "Zooma" & solo cd by Nick Beggs, in which he either plays ALL instruments or uses loops, programming. The tee shirt's were IMHO, rather bland. Mostly black shirts w/simple graphic designs, a black shirt w/the ITCOTCK cover(smallish)but it was'nt a very good example of printing, as it looked faded next to the orignal cover & even to tee's i've seen in the past. The only KC shirt I own was given to me & I still consider it to be the best, & that was from 95 & is white tee w/LTIA sun on front & KING CRIMSON above, w/Larks Tounge In Aspic on back. The nicest graphic KC tee i've seen. Back in 95 there was a company you could order like 8 different shirts from, but I guess that no longer exsists. If you have any drawing ability at all or even if you don't you can use a smooth wood surface like clipboards are made of, stretch the tee over a large peice(you have to stretch it)and buy tubes of what is called Embroidery paint/or ink, the tubes have a roller type ball to distribute the paint, and just use the original ALBUM(vinyl)cover & simply trace over the image & fill in the colors. I did this very thing back in the 70's(both freehand & tracing)& while it's time comsumming, it made the best looking ITCOTCK shirt i've seen anywhere! BTW, they do have a polo shirt that has KING CRIMSON embroidered over the left chest area for $35. It was nice looking but you could likely buy a shirt & have it done cheaper. I did'nt care for the tee's available at all, but that's just me. Lastly(finally right?)Toby, when you gave us # of subscribers to ET by country, I would have to think the USA # of 18 was a misprint, right? I Mean, I know of 6 people in St. Louis alone! Estonia has more? Greece? Croatia? Hungary? Pakistan? No way. [ You cannot accurately tell who is in the US, based on Internet domain name. For example, I use several ".com" email addresses, but I am a UK resident. So most USA ETers will be in the "others" category in the original breakdown. -- Toby ] Sorry for the length, I just was excited about the possible final performance of KC here, and wanted to set aside the paranoia over the VOLUME level, pls don't let this stop you from seeing an incredible performance. 2hrs of KC, i'll take that anyday, even w/a somewhat poorer mix. I would'nt let something as trivial as that keep me away. Sarah will be in K.C. to see KC for the 5th time Tuesday & will no doubt do a helluva post- look for it! By the way Pat signed a ticket I was given & I passed it onto her since she did'nt catch the drum sticks she deserved! Go, enjoy the show, it might be the last chance! STEVEN MUNARI "There are 40 people in the world and 5 of them are hamburgers" Don Van Vliet(I Need a new quote) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:05:39 -0600 From: "Steve Marshall" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Crims in St. Louis (quick review) Saw the band here in St. Louis last night - excellent (albeit short < 90 mins total) show. Great sound, but MAN was it loud!! Even with earplugs. Apparently Ade didn't feel like doing much singing. I think he only sang on 3 songs. The rest was all instrumental. Mostly new music - Elephant Talk, Red & Vrooom/Coda were the only pre-TCOL tunes played. Lots of new stuff, the only one introduced was EleKctric. Picked up a copy of the Level Five CD - very cool. I got #1280. Does anyone know how many there are? JPJ was either really good or really bad. JPJ's sound was good, but not as good as KC. That's about it for now. If you're considering going to any of the upcoming shows, you're in for a treat. Don't forget the earplugs tho!! Steve ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #900 ********************************