Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #899 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 899 Tuesday, 27 November 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: November 30th Book Launch Summers & Fripp Red....again?!?!?! 30th Anniversary (looking for jem case versions only) Steely Dan Ear Candy... Re: KC neglected fans release In a few hours.... Re: GIG REVIEW: November 16, The Web Theatre, Phoenix, AZ Help Re: crim and devil/ear and eye candy... Frippowhat? Interaction between JPJ and KC? Heavy Metal and Prog Rock / The Boundaries Problem Mr. Soundman, fix me a drink. Young Krim Listeners. GIG REVIEW: Minneapolis - 11.21 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jim UK Subject: NEWS: November 30th Book Launch Hi Toby and other UK based ETer's Hope this reaches you in time. Just a quick reminder that Sid Smith's new book is being launched on Friday 30th November at 6.30 p.m. at Helter Skelter's shop, 4 Denmark Street, London. Nearest tube is Tottenham Court Road. I got the book the other day I can honestly say its brilliant. I e-mailed Sid to congratulate him and he told me that John Wetton, Peter Giles and David Cross and Michael Giles are going to be there on the 30th. Oh and maybe Gordon Haskell as well. Peter Giles is likely to have copies of the Brondesbury Road Tapes with him for purchase and signing. I had thought that this event was a private affair byut Sid assured me it wasn't so I thought Ipost this to ET in case anyone else had made the same mistake. Gotta go. The chapter on Red is wonderful stuff! Jim Atnew ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:14:04 -0300 From: "Gustavo Enriquez" Subject: Summers & Fripp Hi from Argentina ! Does anyone know if Summers & Fripp "Parade" promotional video (from 1984) is still available somewhere ? Please email privately. Thanks. Gustavo Enriquez Buenos Aires - Argentina Contact pgm at house dot com dot ar ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 06:16:47 -0800 (PST) From: Wasser Dan Subject: Red....again?!?!?! I guess I should feel lucky that I'm going to see Crimson for the 10th time next month (Lisner Auditorium in D.C.). But I am tired of hearing them play "Red." Are there that many people who are going to a Crim concert for the first time that the band feels obligated to still play some of the old stuff? Thye've played "Red" every time I've seen them. I WANT FRAKTURED!!!!!! One poster wrote that Fripp was sitting in the shadows. Oh no, not that act again!!!! Wow....I just realized that I'm not excited to see the boys! Bummer. Dan Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:03:01 -0800 (PST) From: ProgNaut at webtv dot net (Ron) Subject: 30th Anniversary (looking for jem case versions only) I'm wondering, has the jem case versions of SaBB and Red been released yet and where can I get them, here in the USA? Also if Discipline, ToaPP and Beat have been released in the jem case yet. Best Regards, Ron oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ProgNaut.com - "a Progressive & Classic Rock Fan Site" http://www.ProgNaut.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:45:03 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: Steely Dan Ear Candy... George brought up a good point-Steely Dan, their music and their musical capabilities. I love Donald Fagen and Walter Becker...amazing musicians and song writers. I saw them on their last tour in New Jersey last year and I still say that that is the geatest concert I've ever attended (along with Aerosmith and Fuel on the Just Push Play Tour...they rocked...I know it sounds hard to believe, but it was phenomenal). So, what about the boys in SD? Do other ET'ers like them? If so, do you think they're just as good musicians as the guys in King Crimson? I for one think that they're both great, GREAT bands, and they've both written some of my favorite albums (KC's Discipline and SD's Countdown To Ecstasy)...here the similarities end, though. They're very different bands, VERY different. KC are amazing, ingenius and sometimes overwhelming prog rock, SD are laid-back jazz rock. Still, love 'em both... ---Mike =) P.S.-I'm also curious to know what are some of your favorite KC albums, and some of your favorite albums of all time? Any takers? [ Your humble moderator is a HUGE Steely Dan fan -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:32:46 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: KC neglected fans release >According to Fripp, people that attended the concerts will have no interest >in the set, since they witnessed the "real thing" (referring to the actual >King Crimson live experience), therefore, King Crimson decided to release >the set for people that did not have a chance to see King Crimson live but that couldnt be further from the truth. the way ive seen it, people search out shows taht they have been to to relive the music experiance. its just a cool and interesting record of your experiance. Why not just make it available to everyone, and then everyone can have the choice to buy it or not. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:29:10 -0600 From: paulmac at macfarlanecohn dot com Subject: In a few hours.... I go to the Crimso/JPJ show here in silly, sorry St. Louis. All I can say is this, to each and every player tonight: Leap?? for we shall be thy net. Take us somewhere you've never been I, for one, am strapped in and ready for any twists, bumps and rattles with my mind silenced, wide open and hungry. Can't wait. Even if it's a so-called horrible, off night, who cares? It's human, real, raw and beautiful in its vulnerability. Existence, Truth, the Universe has blessed us with these musicians. I can only hope that the crowd tonight will offer blessings as well. Love Paul MacFarlane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:06:50 +0100 From: "Marcus Enochsson" Subject: Re: GIG REVIEW: November 16, The Web Theatre, Phoenix, AZ > > Christopher "HeKcman" (more commonly known as Heckman) once upon a time > > wrote: > > > >>Overall? I have been to several concerts that have made me want to quit > >>mathematics and become a musician instead. This wasn't one of them, >though. And I wrote: > >Hey, don't forget we're talking King Crimson here! Where lies the > >difference? To which was replied: >Sorry. That was a typo. What I meant to type was: "The show was perfect, >and >I'm willing to kiss Robert Fripp's *** any time he comes to Phoenix." >Better? > The point I was making was that it was a good show, but not on the >order of >the ones immortalized in such recordings as _B'boom_, _Thrakkattak_, and >_Vrooom Vrooom_. Which raises an interesting question: Are there any >recordings >of a "typical" KC show (in its entirety)? Sorry, I wasn't very clear there I guess. The difference I had a hard time distinguishing was between the role of the musician and that of the mathematician, in the Crimso universe. Never mind... Cheers, Marcus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 20:04:40 EST From: EkimDwod at aol dot com Subject: Help I'm going to a couple east coast shows and as much as I love suprises I'd like to hear the new stuff before I go. Is there someplace online or elsewhere I can go to listen does anyone know? Thanks Mike email ekimdwod at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:20:37 EST From: Leftsimeez at aol dot com Subject: Re: crim and devil/ear and eye candy... To Eric, concerning the "crim and devil" part... How much LSD have you done? That makes absolutely no sense... while i'm posting, i might as well throw my favorites in.... ear candy: ITCOTCK - Kc Procol Harum - procol harum anything by Blood Sweat & Tears Soul Of A Man - Al Kooper (not alice cooper) Animals - Pink Floyd Welcoming Home the Astronauts - Flickerstick Oddessey and oracle - Zombies plus way more... Eye Candy... ITCOTCK Cellophane Symphony - Tommy James & the Shondells Act Like Nothing's Wrong - Al Kooper Tarkus - ELP Close to the Edge, haha, just kidding...Tales of Topographical bla bla bla - Yes ::sigh:: theres so much ~Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:03:10 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Frippowhat? Ben Wolfson wrote of my writing: Grant Colburn wrote: >if one is trying to "blame" Fripp and King Crimson >for the sound at their concert on a personal level, blame implies an >actual conscious intent on the part of those you blame. Ben wrote: "That's a rather silly and constricting definition of blame. If Robert Fripp picks a venue that he knows to have poor acoustics, he isn't trying to make the band sound bad. But it's certainly true that one can blame him when the sound is muddy because the venue's acoustics suck." Again, your point is lost. Why do you assume that Fripp "knows" a given venue has poor accoustics? "Another interesting aspect of your argument is that the first person (Ira) called Fripp a hypocrite because he didn't control those aspects of a concert that he *could*, and then you took him to task for holding Fripp responsible for things he *can't* control. Buh?" This would be even more interesting if I understood your point. "but i think you are mistaken to think its OK to pay a good deal of money to listen to talented musicians play at physically uncomfortable, distorted, damaging volumes." I think your are mistaken to assume what I think. I don't think its OK to pay lots of money for bad sound, I just don't think that its correct to blame personally the artist for the gig having bad sound. Its possible they may be to blame but I think its short sighted to assume them to be the primary factor in the sound equation. I also think its wrong to assume that all aspects of a live event are completely fixable and controlable. When you go to a show you HOPE that the sound will be good, AND the band is inspired, AND that they didn't indulge in too many rock n' roll activities before the show, AND the PA and monitors are working properly, AND that the dude next to you who's already swaying and looking a bit green doesn't puke on your shoes, BUT as I said, there are no guarantees for any of it. Its a risk you take by agreeing to be there. "The volume is eminently controllable--that was the whole point, there's no reason to give the audience tinnitus." For all you know it may not have been the volume that was the problem, bad sound is usually just that, BAD. Too many highs, too distorted, etc. For all any of us know the original poster may have been in a corner of the room where certain frequencies were boosted beyond what the sound mixer heard where he was. Again, live music is a gamble. Where you are has a lot to do with what you hear. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 20:36:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Sheridan Subject: Interaction between JPJ and KC? Hey, since Trey played on JPJ's last solo album and Fripp is on JPJ's forthcoming one, it would seem possible that there might be some live interaction between bands - any? Looking forward to seeing them in New haven on Dec. 9- Jim S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:50:38 -0500 From: Leonardo_Gomez Subject: Heavy Metal and Prog Rock / The Boundaries Problem Hi Folks: In ET 897, Marcelo Silveyra said: "Deep Purple, one of metal's seminal and most important bands (before a discussion about whether or not DP is metal, listen to In Rock, Fireball, Machine Head, Burn, etc. in their entirety) was a progressive rock outfit before adopting metal" I am a big fan of Deep Purple, and I don't think that In Rock, Fireball, and the others of the MKII( Blackmore, Gillan, Glover, Lord, Paice) were a progressive outfit. I think that was pure and direct in the face Heavy Rock. The Progressive side of DP was in albums like the Book of Taliesyn (Anthem is a good example), Deep Purple (listen April. A precious piece of Classical Fusion and Symphonic Rock; The track saw the band contrasting string quartet passages with Heavy Rock) with the MKI (Blackmore, Lord, Paice, Evans, Simper); and Concerto for group and Orchestra (With the Royal Philarmonic Orchestra, Conducted By Sir Malcolm Arnold) , and the Gemini Suite (With the Orchestra of the Light Music Society, Conducted also by Malcolm Arnold). These two were written by Jon Lord, and it became, the pinnacle of Lord's progressive creation, with great performances of the rest of the band. I know that these two LP's didn't become milestones of the genre, but I recommend both highly. "Finally, Fripp once said that Anthrax (a band that was definitely not progressive) was the latest cool thing in music (around 93 or 94, I think) " Where do you hear this? I wanna know more about it, because Anthrax is also one of my favorite bands. It's really cool, that Robert Fripp find Anthrax, interesting!!. By the way, I think Anthrax is a band that was a little progressive. I always have thought that the trash metal, is progressive (and transgressive), because handles odd timings and structures, and also uses complex rhythms and dissonances. Anthrax proves my theory in the Spreading the disease, Among the living (Indians is superb), State of Euphoria and the Persistance of time albums. All Highly Recommnded Death is other Example. First album which any prog fan should check out, is Human. Human is an "extreme-fusion" album. Schuldiner and his band mates knows how to mix dissonances, and chord progressions could be inspired by contemporary classical, while drumming is really complex, fast and accurate, with enormousness of rhythm-changes and contrarhythms, Strange "melodies" have thus appropriate rhythm base. And the last but not least is the Canadian band Voivod. Killing Technology and Dimension Hatross saw the band introducing tritones, disharmony and exposed cosmic sound. The Outer Limits (Cover of the nile song - Pink Floyd), for my opinion their best ever, has transformed the sounds of pink floyd, Hawkwind,Van der graff Generator, Gentle Giant & King Crimson and the thrasher Voivod sound into fantastic blend of space/prog rock/metal. Phobos is a great album, Besides psychedelics and Thrash there are experimental tracks like Univers Zero or Present, and this album has a cover of 21st Century Schizoid Man. I recommend also Negatron, Angel Rat and Nothing Face (Astronomy Domine cover). Voivod is Prog/Trash Metal, at his most and purest expression. There is no boundaries in the prog world. Fripp thinks the same and is always breaking and crossing limits, of one or another genre. Think in King Crimson, TCOL and his Nuovo Metal. Saludos ANDRES LEONARDO GOMEZ MARTINEZ "Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." - en Misticism & Logic de Bertrand Russell. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 23:52:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: Mr. Soundman, fix me a drink. There can never be too much vodka in a Martini, and there can never be too many posts about concert sound quality! A performer may have good nights and better nights, but a sound system is more "static" and subject to control. To think that it can't get any better is right up there with thinking that my writing can't get any better. Listen up Soundmen: rearrange it and try again... No matter how sophisticated it may be, a concert sound system mustn't be a consumer stereo system on steroids. You kick out 100k for a stereo and watch the video while you listen, but it isn't a unique sound is it? The character of live sound has the potential for a great deal of personality, but we'll never know if we don't shake it up, or stir it, or something. How about a shot of 101 on fire? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:00:54 +1100 (EST) From: Will Dayble Subject: Young Krim Listeners. I'm another of the fly-on-the-wall ET readers and like a lot of the other younger listners out there, it's really good to know that we're not an endangered breed. I'm but 17 years old, and got introduced to KC when I was 16 by my stoner uncle, who was a fan of the likes of Fripp and Eno, along with the rest of the prog scene. Although I've been a Tull fan for years now it's only recently I've found the magic of the rest of the 70's experimental artists, and some of you older ETers should be happy to know that the spirit is alive and well in this younger generation, granted with a little less LSD... The first KC album I got was Construction, which soon led to the other earlier material. I'm only just starting to really get into the bulk of KC out there, and I'm finding each one more inspiring than the last. I've introduced the rest of the guys in my band to KC and they've all accepted with open arms, which is great. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems one of the nuances of prog listners is that many of the less optimistic believe themselves to be a dying breed, when it is very definite that they are not. The definition of 'prog' as the music to get stoned to the first time - offered by another ET reader who's name escapes me - is now the very same definition I use myself, and if one does not confine it to the experimental stage of music around the early KC/Floyd era, but anything progressive, it's plain to see that there are still artists out there who are continuing in the same vein. It might be my youthful inexperience, but all the more I'm hearing older prog listeners complaining how MTV etc. 'ruined' music as an artform, and honestly to me it all seems quite silly. There is no-one forcing you to watch MTV, and there are still heaps of non-commercial artists out there, prying their wares. All it takes is a bit of looking, and a bit of optimism. Devin Towsend for one has been a man who played what he wanted to play, with no MTV poison and managed to surivive, releasing some damn good music along the way. Granted, he's 'no Fripp', but he is a good musician, and one of the people paving the way for what could be called 'modern' prog. Dev classes himself as playing 'progressive metal', so go figure. I'm not saying that the people of ET are nothing but old whingers, far from that - it's amazing to find such a concentrated bunch of people so dedicated to an artform with such a small fan-base - but more often than not I skim over posts about people complaining about how they didn't get their tickets for so and so, or the music was too loud at this gig etc... Some of us have never even had the chance, and would kill to have their eardrums busted at a KC gig! Yet again, it might just be my youthful stupidity, but isn't it the guys like Fripp who are making the music, and we the people who are along for the ride? I can't imagine it's heartening for those guys to hear people complaining that they couldn't see him on stage or whatever, and as Devin says so well in Terria (go buy it), "Music? Well it's just entertainment folks!". Anyhow, enough of the hypocrit whining about the whiners... :) Music is fun! Make it, listen to it, study it, analyze it, just please don't pick it - and the people that make it - to pieces, or there'll be nothing left for the rest of us! Hell, Talk? It's oooonly talk. Cheers - Will. (Australia) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:30:46 -0600 From: "Darcianne Siefkes" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Minneapolis - 11.21 Having just seen the Level Five show in Minneapolis last night, a few recollections/impressions: First, I was delighted with the John Paul Jones Orchestra. Not having any idea what to expect and therefore no preconceptions, I was totally and pleasantly surprised. I was a good fit for a Crim audience, much like the CGT was. It felt more like we had been treated to two concerts, not just a single concert with a "warm-up band". The sound was good last night, a comfortable volume and you could hear everything. Maybe they're getting the bugs worked out of the sound. Crimson really smoked. Any lingering questions about the ability of this "double-duo" to carry the torch were quickly snuffed out. The last time I saw Crimson (Thrak tour, double-trio) the sound was thick and lush, but it was harder to distinguish the individual parts. My hat's off to Pat and Trey for stepping up to the plate and holding their own. Crimson is a new beast now. The new material, Level Five and Dangerous Curves are amazing new pieces. This four-piece band seems to be really coming into it's own identity and a new Crimson is emerging once again. That's one of the things I like about Crimson is the ability to constantly challenge themselves and create new musical forms. On this, the seventh night of the tour they seemed very at ease and confident with themselves. Be sure and get the Limited EDition our CD. A great Lastly, I feel like I should apologize to the band (even though it wasn't my fault...) for the boorish behavior and rude shouting among some of my fellow audience members at the very start of the show. At a dramatic moment when the soundscapes were emerging and the band was setting the tone and the mood, the obnoxious shouts from the crowd put the band off at first, it seemed. I felt embarassed for us as a crowd and I hope the Crimson King won't hold that against us in terms of returning to the Twin Cities for future concerts. You do have some fans here!! All in all, a great way to kick off the holiday weekend. Happy Thanksgiving all you ET-ers. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #899 ********************************