Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #896 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 896 Thursday, 22 November 2001 Today's Topics: Re: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! KC: Not an opiate for the masses. T-Shirts loose ends =?iso-8859-1?B?U3BlY2lhbCBkYXRlIGluIE1vbnRy6WFsIDogRGVjZW1iZXIgNnRo?= I'll be there Re: "Frippocrite:" A few questions... Oh, you must've heard a good Page performance Harsh Review Revisited Can Guitarist Dead at age 53 KC's sound engineer Univers Zero/Present Eh?? What's that you say? On the Importance of the Sound Mix tour merchandise? I'm into EYE candy! Gordon Haskell making waves Re: frippocrite Trey Gunn hysteria! GIG REVIEW: begging for general admission ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:51:09 -0000 From: "Thomas Mazurais" Subject: Re: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:19:09 -0500 >From: "Ryan Tassone" >Subject: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! >6. ..."Indiscipline"! Ade Belew is a comic! He starts by talking way too > fast, then slow, then does some weird guitar synth thing, it's genius. Ah, yes. :) This is one of my favourite songs. From the different recordings I have of this song, he never quite does the song the exact same way twice, but then the way the song is set up, it does give a lot of room for push and pull. It's crazy, but as you said, it's genius. :) I love it. Actually I think that it's Fripp that does the synth thing during Elephant Talk, a way for the band to be indisciplined towards Belew. I think they agreed to surprise Belew. Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:06:06 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: KC: Not an opiate for the masses. Hi all, here is a long post, kindly bypass if this waffle horrifies you... It seems that somethings never, ever change. All you guys having to put up with people who cannot, will not and shall not get into Music. Seems very familiar. horribly familiar. This is not very new and is really the same old song and dance (Aerosmith). So what are they buying? What are they being sold? Image? A better or alternative sense of themselves? Something someone can see, buy the clothes, have a soundtrack to their existence that is no threat/ challenege to a preferred, accepted order of events. Which means that they can look like somebody their contemporaries can recognise and associate with. Nothing unusual about that. Nothing as difficult to pin down as, er, Thrakkattak. It is not seen or understood nor is it easy to do so. It is a threat to ordered existence. Reviled as pretentious etc. This one puzzles me. What is pretentious? Paul Weller once said that anyone who puts out a record is pretentious. This amused me. Is it bad, or good? Is it something just not readily understood? Where do you begin and end there? Is a piece of music pretentious for being, 5, 8, 12, 40 (whatever) minutes long? Is pretension defined by a listeners/ viewers attention span? Or more likely by critics who just want an easy life as this is just a job to them. Sad to see the (bad) influence some of these people have. ProgRock as the real punk, this is real anarchy. Within a musical context. Still, no threat to the mod con existence... Non conformism is it. Being into prog you can't dress one way or look another you have to use the brain cells and take a risk that is listen think, invest your time, your life. It is not a badge and you cannot throw it away. Not easily. It is not disposable. Incidentally I define progressive music as merely being music that is the opposite to regressive. That is to say, a market formula for milking the cash cow that is the music punter and reverting to producing lowest common denominaor manipultaive product. (No freedom of choice, no free will here.) So what about the music. If you are 12, 17, 25, 38, 47, 56, 63 whatever the years on you and you love something that is odd like Music, especially something that requires effort on the part of the listener, you are not going to have a wonderful time with these masses. There is a confrontation there. It is aggressive and progress(ive) denotes change and this is something I have found many people do not want. People want safety and security, something easily understood and recognised among their contemporaries. (There is nothing wrong with that but when these people start to do the industry's job for them and want to exclude you for being who you are then I get worried.) That's why these appalling soap operas are so popular, this is why boy/ girl bands are popular and this is why King Crimson and others are not picked up on by these people. They might actually like some KC but do not give themselves the chance, are unwilling to risk precious money on something unknown. KC do not represent security. You are just an exception that proves the rule. Give the people what they want. First tell them what they want...then sell it to them...again. Thought. If KC were to emerge onto the scene now, as a new band, what would the industry do to you or them? Would they have a music contract or would they be free.... back to the pit... This pop stuff is not called lowest common denominator product for nothing. NB I do know pop is short for popular, and I do like accessible melodies. It is the compromise and patronage (and the instant wave of boredom and apathy that hits me when I hear this stuff) to which I object. In the UK we have hi-rotate radio that pulps out some pop at one track per hour (Capital FM) This is very popular. We have Virgin which pumps out mainstream at one track per day. This is slightly less popular. (Got to laugh really, how stupid can some people get?) I am going on previous workplace radio playing shared experience. Fortunately now I have my earphones on all day and listen to whatever I like. Bliss. NB This can also be interpreted as social exclusion. So I learn my lessons after all. When it comes to accessible melodies I do not find anything accessible about the pop crap dumped everywhere. This is not about access or expression, it is about excluding anyone older than 21, as well as income brackets, slightly less obviously but it's there; you have to pay to play... Be in or be out. Conform or be cast out as Rush said. Subdivisions quivered with contempt for social facism and is still very relevant now. Unfortunately. It is about marketing people subjecting your trendy contemporaries to a marketing strategy so certain people can make alot of money and continue to do so. Remember, this is an industry and the purpose of any industry is to keep the conveyer belt, gravy train going. These people (the industry) do not like you, no matter what they would say. There are too few actual music lovers under 21 that will concern the industry. (I say under 21 because these are the years your tastes, and mine are formed and they want to get you while you're hot, young and impressionable. None of which I am.) The best thing anyone can do is be open minded (there is life outside MTV, Empty Vee is something I have hardly ever seen),informed (think for yourself, be prepared to be right or wrong and honest)and aware (there is a lot of audio expression out there) Fortunately for the music industry there are not too many people like that. Very few people are trained that way. This is MHO ...nearly forgot to say so in my latest rant... Was there not someone who mentioned elitism and taking it all to seriously? Yes I am elitist. Not in a facist way, I do not seek to impose my will unlike our dear music industry. This is merely my defence against all those types who are wanting my money. I do not want to be ripped off. i will take chances but it is my choice.It does not mean I think less of others for not being into KC, I do not think more of myself for doing so, it just is the way things are. Yes I do take it seriously because it is my precious time that is required. ... Now I need some KC Heavy Construction and PX improvs to make me feel better. A (2CD) Club release of more of this would be appreciated immensely. I for one would prefer KC to play improvs longer than the 4 - 10 mins that is the norm. That'll go to number 1 won't it? Oh, one thing. Will there be any JPJ on the KC Club releases? I don't want much, just a CD/ DVD of every show, gives me an excuse/ reason to get a DVD player, no, I do not own one... Jones and Fripp. Together. Are they guesting Jonesy with KC at all? First send me to heaven then keep me there.... Once again thanks to you who have read this, ET for publishing it and craven apologies to readers who I might have offended. take care all lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:07:28 -0500 From: John Sowerby Subject: T-Shirts At 19:55 11/19/2001 +0000, you wrote: >For a while, before actually checking the DGM catalogue , i wondered if KC >had any tshirts or how i could get them. Now that i know and ive seen what >they have to offer i am very disapointed. You mean you don't like the Nuovo Metal shirt? I bought that in preference to the Discipline T at the West Palm Beach gig earlier this year... John S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:48:39 -0500 From: Steve Rewa Subject: loose ends Well, If you want to ask where Jethro Tull has been, the answer is my CD player. I've been a really big fan of JT for quite some time and I've brought it up here before, but I'm told now that they're not really prog (Sorry Mark, but I'm just not convinced;)). I won't argue that they're coming off of a creative slump, but Ian Anderson's last 3 pieces of work 3 of my favorites. Most everybody loves them for the flute, but I think we need to give credit to the great accordion work as well. I'm going to segue to the younger generation thread now. I'm 22 and I own nearly every Jethro Tull album. I catch a lot of flack for that. The same would be true for King Crimson, except I don't own that much. I haven't been a fan for much more than a year or so. I personally call myself a Tull fan, but most to refer to me as a Tull Freak. Personally I don't get it. If you really like a band is it too odd to think that you would own all the albums? I guess something can be said for scope here. If you like JT or KC you're talking 30 albums and if you like Weezer, which I do, it's like 2. Then I start to wonder if people really do like a band enough to want to buy all of their albums. I asked a friend of mine who was giving me a hard time over Songs From the Wood, if she had a song, not even a band, but just a song that always made her feel good to hear it. She said "I don't know. I kind of like Radiohead." The long and short of it is, it is really hard to find people who really care about what they listen to. I mean no disrespect to Radiohead. I honestly know nothing about them other than what I hear watching wrestling (which I would argue is the only thing worth watching MTV for, but even that won't get me to watch that station). If you love Radiohead enough to really get to know it, I applaud that. My brother is one such person. Our musical knowledge only intersects at Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. We both like Pink Floyd, but I like Dark side of the moon, he likes the wall, so even within a single band our musical tastes hardly overlap, but he's an avid listener and enjoys stuff that doesn't ever get mentioned here on ET. I don't think I can consider his taste any worse than mine however, because I know he's a discerning listener. I guess what I mean to say is that although there are a lot of people in all generations who don't appreciate good music, or even any music, to some extent appreciating music makes it good. As far as music video's go, I know very little. The music I listen to doesn't usually lend itself to video, so I find little worth knowing. I know a lot of you expressed concern that video robs you of the ability to imagine for yourself. That's a good point. I guess I'd like to see a video made of the music I like long after I've already imagined it. I'd be curious to see the artists vision after I've come up with my own. It could certainly be eye opening. Actually, I saw a video for Steppenwolf's magic carpet ride that was put together for some "rock roll and remember" special that was the goddamnedest thing I ever saw. So much Orange. Similarly, I think album covers are really interesting. I usually hear the music before I see the covers for the bands I listen to, so they tend not to affect my purchase, but I do enjoy a really good one. My favorite is Jethro Tull's Broadsword and the Beast. It's really fun artwork. The stormwatch cover is good too. One other Great JT cover is the Stand up album. Not so much for the cover, but for the pop up characters on the inside. Aside from JT I really like the cover for Jimi Hendrix's Axis: Bold as Love and Cream's Disraeli Gears. Styx's pieces of Eight is a great cover too. Kansas's Leftoverature is pretty cool and it reminds me a lot of KC stuff. I've spent a lot of time pondering the exploding earth on Yes' fragile too. Well, that's enough out of me. Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:55:23 -0500 From: "daniel ." Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?U3BlY2lhbCBkYXRlIGluIE1vbnRy6WFsIDogRGVjZW1iZXIgNnRo?= The King Crimson date for its Montreal venue falls on December 6th, an important date over here as it marks the sad 11th anniversary of a women mass murder. many activities will be held. perhaps Krimson would hold a few minutes silence or something like that in honor of the victims? for more info (on a rather disturbing site, though): http://massmurder.dyns.net/marc_lepine.htm d. ===================================Daniel Gosselin dr_dagne at hotmail dot com `Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world, I can't help but cry. I mean, I'd love to be skinny like that, but not with all those flies and death and stuff.' Mariah Carey `Quand on coupe la tete d'un intellectuel, il meurt.' Francois Cavanna Telechargez MSN Explorer gratuitement a l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:27:40 -0500 From: Jim Bailey Subject: I'll be there ...if I may be allowed to cop a line from Mr. Eno for my subject. And where will I be? Why Massey Hall, of course. When? Dec. 5th, naturally. Interesting about this event will be that I'm sitting in almost (if not) the exact location as I was for the performance on 11/11/1971. Should be an interesting comparison. The memory of that previous date is indelibly stamped in my mind - probably because it was the first time that 16-year-old suburban kid was out on his own in the big city. I regret now not staying for Procol Harum, but it's too late to go back (besides, I've lost the ticket). Won't make that mistake this time! Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:00:40 -0600 From: "Trey Five Winds" Subject: Re: "Frippocrite:" A few questions... Good evening. I wonder if you, the readers of ET, might care to consider something: The following post from Ira Aronin was in the last ET issue. As I read it, I couldn't help but pose a few questions. To Mr. Aronin: would you mind? >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:03:06 -0800 >From: ira aronin >Subject: Frippocrite "I am prompted to write for the first time, though I have been a stalwart fan since the first album, and have seen the band (in various permutations) half a dozen times, by reports of poor sound reinforce- ment on the current tour." I can see why. Having seen the opening night of their tour, I too can attest to the fact that there were a few sound difficulties. Though, in my (or our) case, only a mere two songs worth. And, to be completely unbiased, though I enjoy "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and "Into The Frying Pan," there were other songs played that night that I'm into a whole lot more, so, it didn't really bother me in any other way. It's not that I don't think these pieces are good, I just enjoyed most everything else a lot better. "To me this points out a major flaw in Fripp's persnicketyness..." "Persnicketyness"? I've honestly never seen or heard this word in print before! It's possible that you may have just coined a word! "...regarding the audients creating an environment where he/KC can create optimal music (No flashbulbs, etc)---the band has the primary obligation to create an environment where the sonic representation of the musical ideation is good---to put it plainly, the band has a responsibilty to play in venues where the sound is good and to monitor the quality during the performance." I agree with this 100%. But, I can also agree, as a once and future musician who has performed onstage in a few different sets of circum- stances myself, that it takes BOTH the audience and the band, as well as THE BAND'S SUPPORT CREW, AND THE VENUE STAFF. Any one of these can be a fly in the ointment. It doesn't just start and stop with the band onstage. "Particularly, having the sound at volumes which is causing auditory damage is indefensible." Agreed, but at that moment, how many options do the band have at their disposal? When the sound starts to turn funky or weird, what can you do when you are trying to perform a piece of music onstage? From their po- sition, after exhausting the options of modifying all of their equipment on-stage and having their sound crew make changes on the fly, the only option they have at that moment is stopping the show in mid-stream; I can personally attest to you, as a musician who has had to do this, that as a performing musician, you don't ever want to STOP the show; not if you can absolutely help it. The best you can try for is to remedy it as you go along, or to have your sound crew remedy it as you go along. But you never want to stop a show if at all possible, especially not in mid-song; this ruptures the atmosphere of the perfor- mance, and the audience will always remember it, usually negatively, no matter what good recovery can be made. Pausing between songs to take care of the problem works better, and is usually accepted, though it can sometimes create some strain. Also, remember that the band doesn't always hear things the way the audience does; they have their own monitoring system that tells them how they sound to themselves onstage, and they have to depend on this system to let them hear each other as well. The sound beyond the confines of the stage is the province and the domain of the PA, and the only thing they have to judge that with is the audience reaction. This is why they have a soundman, and/or a sound crew. And, sometimes, these guys run into many different obstacles. Turning the sound down RIGHT THEN AND THERE may not always be the correct solution to the problem. Whatever creative wounds the music may suffer from the flash bulbs of ignorant or maladjusted persons in the audience are far less important than permanently damaging people's hearing. Again, this is agreed, but I detect a note of hostility. If I may... To go back to your original opening: I am prompted to write for the first time by reports of poor sound reinforcement on the current tour. Okay. But -- did you actually attend any of the shows on this tour? You have indicated that you have seen the band in different permuta- tions many different times. But you never once said that you saw a per- formance from THIS tour, the LEVEL FIVE tour. How many times have you seen them? How about on this tour? Have you ever seen them when they had sound difficulties on other tours? If this happened, what did the band do to remedy this in the course of the performance? Are you aware that they are working with new equipment and some new sound crewmen? Were you informed about the new PA system? Are you absolutely sure that they did nothing to try to remedy the problem in performances when they heard it (provided they did, of course)? Or could you tell? Sound is a tricky medium to work with. I have no doubt that at the performance I witnessed, the band could tell that something was wrong. I sat there and watched them attempt to take actions to correct it. But it took them a bit of time to tell. And then, nothing they did worked from the stage. But, as I reported, by the time "Larks IV" swung into action, the sound was back up as it should be. I also noticed this: "The band has the primary obligation to create an environment where the sonic representation of the musical ideation is good---to put it plainly, the band has a responsibilty to play in venues where the sound is good and to monitor the quality during the performance." But how can you know how a room sounds until you played it? And did the band themselves book that room? They have booking agents and promo- ters, but these can't guarantee that the band will be playing in rooms with good acoustics and good sound receptivity. They also can't guaran- tee that the band's equipment will work properly, either. That belongs to the sound crew, and as the new guys, they may not fully understand how to fine-tune the performance machine that they are required to main- tain. They need experience for that, and to get that, they have to go out and do the job. Why do I mention all of this? Well, your post seems to take these sound problems a little personally. You seem to have a problem giving the band the benefit of the doubt, despite being "a stalwart fan since the first album," who has "seen the band (in various permutations) half a dozen times." And from your post, I have no idea whether you ac- tually attended a gig on the LEVEL FIVE tour or not. I would assume not, since you do not say so. So, why are you taking personally something that did not happen TO YOU? Hey -- it's a tour. It's also music. Nobody said it was going to be perfect. These guys do the best they can, knowing it will be practically impossible to guarantee success. But they've been doing this for a long time. I'm sure they can take care of any problems they have; between them, they have over a half-century's worth of experience dealing with the live performance medium. I know that the show I saw on opening night had a few problems to deal with, and I understand it might not have been the best gig to see. But, I took a chance. And they did the best they could at the time, even with the sound problems that they had. As a rea- sonable person who has been onstage in a band playing music live to an audience, I am aware of some of the hurdles that must be overcome. They win some, they lose some. Try sitting in their shoes. As an audience, we only have to have one good night, or as many good nights as we go see a band play. As the band, they have to have a good night EVERY NIGHT. And, frankly, as an expectation, it's not fair. I've set this down just as a thought or two for anyone interested to consider. I hope it helps. If not, I thoroughly understand. I've enjoyed seeing the tour; if you don't take the chance, well, that's your choice. Best Wishes, Trey Five Winds ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: Oh, you must've heard a good Page performance Wait a minute! I didn't say Timmy. JIGH MAAY! There have been several Krittersysms of the KC sound system on this tour, and I have to agree that it could have been better. It didn't sound bad, but people will notice when a valued item goes missing. It is terribly ironic that some of the lower frequencies have gone missing - since a bass master is on the same bill(JPJ). Do elephant-talk people think it is the responsibilty of the individual players to provide quality sound, or the concert industry in general? While lots of people think they know better than the sound man(and unfortunately they sometimes do), there IS a golden rule which must be obeyed for optimal rock concert sound on any budget: SEPERATION TAKES PRECEDENCE No contrast means no definition. No definition may be an interesting concept, but it is synonomous with no concert, and therefore, invalid. In other words, having all those speakers up on that overhead rack is a joke because any reasonably loud show will fill the venue with mid and high waves anyway; they've got to go somewhere don't they? Getting the ground to shake or providing an internal organ massage to fans takes a little something extra and is the yardstick by which a "heavy" concert is measured. There are some poor, naive sound people out there who've never even considered that a guitar can make the hall shake like a bass drum or bass guitar can. Technology is a tender trap for a rock band. Crimson uses it as well as anyone. Don't think for a second though that tecnology doesn't use them as well. There were techno geniuses who thought that replacing tube amps with solid state was a really great idea. There are sound "techs" who think that everything should be miked and run through a P.A. If these "techs" had their way, Pat would be replaced with a drum machine and Adrian would be replaced by a programmed guitar machine(Christopher Parkening). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:22:32 -0800 From: bobabuoy at pacbell dot net Subject: Harsh Review Revisited I posted a review on the Nov. 15 Universal show a few days ago and even though I was dissapointed with the volume and mix, I'd like to say that King Crimson is, and will always be, the most cutting-edge group of musicians to exist. We are very fortunate to have the likes of Fripp and Co. still hitting the road making alot of people very happy. Hopefully they will continue with their very special brand of sonic creativity. Long live the Crimson King! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:34:00 -0500 From: "Steve Gibson" Subject: Can Guitarist Dead at age 53 Speaking of Progressive Rock bands, here's a bit of sad information to pass along... Can Guitarist Dead At 53 (11/20/01, 8 p.m. ET) -- Michael Karoli, guitarist for the German rock band Can, died at the age of 53 due to unknown causes on Saturday (November 17) in his home country. According to the website of bandmate/bassist Holger Czukay, czukay.com, Karoli died "unexpectedly" while playing the guitar. Can included Czukay (Karoli's former teacher), keyboardist Irmin Schmidt, and drummer Jaki Liebezeit. The band earned notoriety with vocalist Malcolm Mooney, but it also featured Damo Suzuki on vocals in later years. The band's Monster Movie is considered by many to have opened the door for bands like Talking Heads, Sonic Youth, and Brian Eno. -- Darren Davis, New York sg gibsonse at nc dot rr dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:41:52 +0100 From: Svante Pettersson Subject: KC's sound engineer I am surprised about all the comments about "bad sound" lately. Hasn't KC toured with the same sound engineer (George Glossop) for a very long time now? Have they got a new guy for this tour? /Svante ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:45:37 -0600 From: "McLeod, Jeff" Subject: Univers Zero/Present Well, I guess I should be embarrassed to be so late getting around to hearing them . . . but I've just discovered Univers Zero and Present, and I must say that I'm blown away and excited about their music in the same way that I am by that of King Crimson. Since were on the topic of PROG, I'd like to add that I've always gravitated towards the darker stuff. I like my prog-rock evil. Univers Zero and Present fit right in there very nicely... Jeff www.soundandchaos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:39:23 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Eh?? What's that you say? In ET #895, Grant Colburn took one Ira Aronin to task for some of the things he had written, particularly about the band's "responsibility" to play in a place with decent acoustics, and the fact that they played at ear-damaging volumes. Frankly, Grant, I thought you may have been just a tad harsh with Mr. Aronin. While I have never been a big fan of blame in any form, certainly it must be understood that if there is to be a partnership between audience and artist in the creation of a good show, then the venue itself cannot be overlooked as having an impact on that relationship. A point with which, I think, you agree. And while promoters certainly have more influence than artists with respect to venue selection, I believe that an act that puts such a premium on the nuances of that relationship, that indeed places at least partial ownership of the quality of the concert on the audience (and rightly so, I'd add) should at the very least accept some ownership-- if not blame-- of the fact that sometimes the venue can make the show a drag by adversely affecting the relationship. Second, while you mention that you have never heard Crimson play at hearing-damage volumes, it is possible that at the show Mr. Aronin attended, they did. Again, perhaps as a function of the venue. And frankly, this sort of thing is subjective. A good friend of mine (and my "Crimson buddy"-- the guy I attend shows with, because my wife says Crimson music makes her want to murder someone) wears hearing protection at every show he attends (Crimson or other), because he has tinnitus from years of concert attendance. (I love his stories of hearing Cream at the tiny Village Underground in the 60's.) So I can sit right next to him and not think the sound is overly loud, and he sits there and thinks it is, and we are both right. Which leads me to urge all Crim fans here, if you are frequent concert-goers, to give some thought to hearing protection. Far be it from me to preach, but I have more than one friend with permanent hearing damage from attending one concert too many that he thought wasn't "too loud." I always take plugs with me, and decide at the show whether or not I think I need them. And I tend to err on the side of caution. But then, I disagree with Mr. Aronin that the band be blamed for playing "too loud." Regardless of the band. You as audient have the means to protect your hearing, and concerts that are loud enough to contribute to hearing loss are sufficiently common these days (e.g., the Motley Crue gig Grant mentioned) that I think the concert-goer, at this point, must take responsibility for protection. I especially stress this point for the younger list members, who may not fully appreciate the longer-term effect that some of the shows you are attending (again, not a Crim comment) may be having on your precious hearing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:48:39 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: On the Importance of the Sound Mix One more thing. The first time I saw the double trio Crim-- in late '94 or early '95 at Town Hall NYC, their first time through (after an 11 year hiatus; last having seen them at the NYC pier in '84)-- I was so blown away by the sound quality that I made a point, before leaving, of seeking out the sound guy and thanking him and complimenting him. He was very gracious, wanted to know where I was situated during the show, and exactly what it was that I liked about it. (I told him that it was the way the band would be making a royal racket, and you could make out every instrument, and then suddenly on a dime they got quiet and there was just one guitar, and that was also fully present and clear as a bell.) He seemed pleased. As was I. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:42:35 -0500 From: Tommy Kochel Subject: tour merchandise? Greetings! I'm preparing to catch the boys in Philadelphia in December. Could someone help prepare me financially? I know the "Level 5" CDs are being sold. I figure that they have a T-shirt this time, too. Is there any other "stuff" for sale? Are they selling the new one from the Trey Gunn Band? Are they selling the "BPM&M" disc? Are there keychains or special posters this time? Thanks! ( ;-{o> Tommy Kochel Touchguitarist, Bassist, and Looper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:58:14 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: I'm into EYE candy! Give me Trey in tight pants anyday.....it's NOT all about the music! xoxoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 01:01:51 +0000 From: Nigel Slater Subject: Gordon Haskell making waves As die hard Crimson fans will know, Gordon Haskell pursued a solo career both before and after his time with KC. Many KC fans enjoy his solo material (I know as many have contacted me), and now he is destined to make the UK charts. Gordon's new single "How Wonderful You Are" is being played on national radio (BBC Radio2) in the UK and is being tipped as a real possibility for Christmas number 1. It is a great achievement that his single is receiving such recognition as he is up against massive competition from the big corporations promoting their artists. If you are in the UK and like the single, please go out and buy it! This will make a difference, not just for Gordon, but for all musicians who are with small/independent record labels. We want to turn the tide! What's my interest? I created Gordon's web site and maintain it for the sheer joy of what he contributes to music. Just attend one of Gordon's gigs and you will feel the same. Nigel Slater ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:22:57 -0800 From: ira aronin Subject: Re: re: frippocrite I sent a post stating essentially fripp is a hippocrate for being so controlling of the audience (taking away cameras) and yet failing to control the conditions he can better, and has an ethical responsiblity to control, the sound the band produces. mr. colburn replies to my post criticizing me for holding fripp responsible and saying i made it seem like the band was trying to sound bad. mr. colburn, i never said anything of the kind, but i think you are mistaken to think its OK to pay a good deal of money to listen to talented musicians play at physically uncomfortable, distorted, damaging volumes. i have been to many concerts, a few of which had wretched sound, and in no case would i call that justifiable. it makes no sense to me to worship musicians to the point that you cant make rational judgments. i love king crimson, fripp's my favorite guitarist---that doesnt mean he isnt a hippocrite and most basically it doesnt mean its ok to play in shitty venues with loud, distorted sound. if you thinks its OK, i doubt youre intelligent enough to fully appreciate the music. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:40:20 -0500 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Trey Gunn hysteria! DISCLAIMER: BECAUSE PEOPLE TAKE THINGS TOO SERIOUSLY ALL THE TIME; THIS IS A JOKE POST! I have stumbled across a mystery, my friends... Trey Gunn, secondary bassist/touch guitar player for the Double Trio King Crimson, died in a parachuting accident shortly after the recording of the Nakano Sun Plaza concert that appeared on their Live in Japan video. Since then, Tony Levin has taken it upon himself to replace him, by putting on a wig and shaving his moustache, all the while slipping clues into album covers, songs, and interviews, with the help of Fripp and Belew. Mastellotto is unaware to this day that the man whose back he's been looking at every night from behind the drum stool is actually Tony Levin in disguise! The 80's Crim, minus Bruford (who got paranoid about the whole ordeal during the 1997 sessions) decided they couldn't let Pat, or the wider public, know about the horrible event; only the discerning eye of several gifted listeners (such as myself and my chess club buddies) were worthy to pick up the clues and unravel the conspiracy! Read on, true believers... 1. The first thing I noticed was the fact that, for during most of the Live In Japan 1995 video, Trey Gunn could clearly be seen playing, long hair and all, on the same stage as Levin, but could literally not be heard in the least for most of the tape! Bear in mind, Gunn was still alive at this time...but during the production and mixing of the tape, he died in a parachuting accident, which prompted mixer/engineer Adrian Belew (check the credits) to put the first clue in the sound itself! Deja Vrooom was that performance, digitally manipulated by another party, a production crew unaware of the event. But watch the tape, it's all there...his fingers move, his lips move, but you can't hear a thing from Gunn 95% of the time...INTERESTING. 2. On the first page of the recent release VROOOM VROOOM, there are photographs of everyone in the Double Trio. Notice anything odd? I do! Everyone is looking at the camera except for Trey Gunn (who is looking up...to heaven?) and Tony Levin (who, with a maniacal grin, is staring across the page at...Trey Gunn himself.) Spooky. Also in the book are "cameo" photos of individual members of the band--Trey Gunn is taken from a faraway angle, perhaps to hide the fact that the person in the picture is really Levin wearing a wig! Who was responsible for this photo, as well as the others? Photography: Tony Levin. Note: the long-haired wig became problematic for concerts, so a smaller wig was used from then on. 3. Throughout the booklet for TCoL, there are more photo clues. The booklet says Trey Gunn is responsible for the photography...which is obviously because Tony Levin was, to the public, no longer in the band, so to list him as taking photos would be suspicious. But it was indeed Levin who took the picture of the figure seated on a bench on page 1...a corpse? Now, follow the line of the bench itself all the way to the right until it meets the words: "By the time I realized what I had done, I was already dead." Chilling! Also, on the back of the CD case, there are digital images (also courtesy "Trey Gunn") next to each band members name. Next to Trey Gunn's name is a full solar eclipse. The plot thickens...on page two of the booklet, to the right, there's a picture with the number 1/137 on it. I did the math, and in decimals that's 0.00729927. A strange number..."7," "2," and "9" appear twice, mirroring each other, and there are two zeroes before that. I'm still working on this clue, folks, but I think it might be something about cross-breezes! Also, check out the lyric lined up directly with the fraction line: "Hurtling to earth through a hole in the sky." Need I say more? 4. The ProjeKct 4 CD West Coast Live has a picture directly under the CD itself of the four players, and a weird arrow connecting all of them (no arrow on Pat M., who is not privy to the conspiracy, as I said). We clearly can see Tony Levin playing an Ashbory Bass in this shot, the very instrument that "Trey Gunn" would play a year or so later with King Crimson! Coincidence?? I THINK NOT! Of course, there are a few loose ends, like how nobody in the audience of ProjeKct 1 and 4 shows noticed that Levin and "Gunn" were never on stage at the same time, and how Pat Mastellotto didn't catch on when "Trey" never sang any background vocals for the current Crim, even though in older tapes we clearly see he is capable of singing, and singing well. Tony Levin has a pretty distinctive voice, and if he began singing "suddenly, from within" during Frame by Frame, all dressed up as Trey Gunn, people would start to wonder! I demand that everyone submit their own clues; Deja Vrooom is no doubt ripe with them. I'm sure more exist, in bootlegs that I don't own (I'm not a CC member). So be on the lookout, and when you hear "Trey Gunn" playing that bass line to One Time, remember what it means for Levin to be the FIFTH MAN!!! THIS CONCLUDES MY ENTIRELY TONGUE-IN-CHEEK POST. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT I NEED TO CLARIFY THIS. Ryan (c; ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:36:11 -0700 From: "Gordon Puls" Subject: GIG REVIEW: begging for general admission I have never posted before after quite a long time reading, but it seems to me that this is the best forum for a plea to the band and/or management. I was at the Denver show at the Paramount Theatre on November 19th. I am sure there will be other posts about this show, and I think there were some misunderstandings in the audience, but I'll get to that in a minute. The main thing I want to do is plead with the folks that accept the invitations from the venues- If they invite King Crimson to play another reserved seating show in Denver, please politely decline. I am not making this plea for the usual reasons- I got a front row seat for this show, dead between Robert and Adrian. This was my first time seeing Crimson in a venue that was not General Admission (actually, I did see the Red Rocks Tool show, which was technically reserved, but trying to find your reserve seat at Red Rocks is futile, and it always fills in front to back anyway). I was very frustrated by the will of the bulk of the Paramount audience to sit down. At a General Admission show, the people who want to shake their behinds and have a little fun generally make it to the front, and everyone else generally has to stand to see. This is my "expectation" of a rock show. Now there will be those who say "Security was kicking people out because they were standing." A more correct statement would be "Security was kicking one woman out because she was trying to stand and dance while the rest of us were sitting". If everyone stands, it becomes the accepted practice. I've seen shows at the Paramount before where everyone stood. The woman in question had been a problem for the security guy in question before the show even started, and her blood alcohol level was about .0015 shy of "dead". Her being hassled by security seemed, to me at least, to be the excuse for everyone to indulge their desire to remain seated and enjoy the show from a buttock perch as if they were at home watching a DVD. This is just my perspective. I am just a young whippersnapper. I started listening to Kc around the time Thrak came out, and though I have and love albums and recorded performances of Crimson from the entire span of time I've been alive, I feel that the current lineup is the best ever. When I saw Crimson at the Fox in Boulder this summer, I felt that everyone there learned to appreciate the unique power and beauty of this new lineup. It was a receptive audience. When I sat listening for the show to start last night, I heard comments like "I can't believe Bill Bruford isn't here. I saw his picture on Ticketmaster." and "I hope they play some older stuff off of Lizard or Lark's tongue. Last time they came none of the young guys new the classic material." I even heard the familiar "It sucks not being able to smoke in here. How are you supposed to pack a bowl?". This was an audience for whom John Paul Jones did indeed blow Krimson off the stage. I will acknowledge that there were definitely some problems. I really feel for Adrian dealing with ghost technical problems all night, and I was touched to see Robert come to take the mike in defense of the inebriated dancer. I feel that this is a definite case of an audience getting the show it deserves, though. I just hope that next time the men of King Crimson come to town, I can see them in a venue where showing your appreciation by standing, cheering, and swaying to the music is the accepted behavior. One last quick and unbecoming flame- If you're wondering who these people are who showed up last night, I may have a clue. I followed a mini-van out of the parking lot with a licence plate that said "BGYESFN" Couldn't resist. Sorry for the long post. Troy ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #896 ********************************