Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #894 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 894 Monday, 19 November 2001 Today's Topics: Re: Levin's Y2K tour DVD special features Re: Oucho Sparks? Oysterhead: The Grand Pecking Order 24 bits 5.1 question In Reply to "Prog rock and heavy metal"... In reply to "The Younger Generation"... Brondesbury Road Frippocrite Re: G, G and F LP Ear candy KC - Gabriel video Think outside of the box!!!! Re: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! Re: The Younger Generation? Re: more MTV and music industry thoughts Re: Crim Selling out Re: MoneyTeeVee- music video art Crimson T-shirts Re: Crim 'Selling Out" to MTV Subject: Re: more MTV and music industry thoughts GIG REVIEW: Fripped off ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:53:44 EST From: Fermier at aol dot com Subject: Re: Levin's Y2K tour Thanks are in order to Guertin Pierre whose posting in ET # 887 directs you to the WWW.Primeticket.NET web site where there is a video of Tony's Water's of Eden tour, available for viewing! I missed the show when he came to Chicago, so this was a chance to see what I had missed. If you like Tony, and I'm sure that you do, go to this site and see this show! Rex Fermier ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:51:47 -0200 From: "carlos h moller" Subject: DVD special features hi ! well, this may be quite old, but does anyone know how (and where !!) to access the hidden DVD features ??? what are they ? maybe i'm lazy, but i decided to ask anyway.... thanks ! Carlos Henrique Moller Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer chmoller at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 06:21:15 -0600 From: "terry j" Subject: Re: Oucho Sparks? >Has anyone on this list seen/heard Oucho Sparks? I saw them recently and >they definitely had some Crimson elements. I wasn't able to find their CD >anywhere, so I had to order it from the website. I just got it today, and >it may be in my top ten right now. Its a nice mix of Crimson, Zappa, Gentle >Giant, Godspeed You Black Emporor, Chick Corea, etc . . . Very Original. >Anyhow, I was just wondering if any of you had more info about this group, >since it seems hard to find information on them. yea i first saw them at this zappafest about a year ago. i've seen them several times since then too. You're definitely right about the crimson influence in the new "silver daddy" album. i can tell that someone in that band is a big fan of the lizard - red eras. besides the info on the website, all i know is that they are from illinois, i think the chicago area. their live setup is two guitars, saxophone, bass, drum set, percussion, and keyboards (including a nice fender rhodes!) - hmm, i guess that's all i know. ---terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:13:11 +0000 From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: Oysterhead: The Grand Pecking Order I'm gonna give my two cents on Oysterhead reguardless of what other people have said about it "I like it" it's different to Crimson in that it doesn't do the tricks Crim are famous for (and lets face it if they tried then it wouldn't have appealed to me as much as it does). It has a healthy sense of the almost completely nonsensical in the lyrics Stewart Copeland is on fine form on drums and lets face it Les Claypool is a very good (if a LOT weird) bassist Trey Anastasio for his part is very good although I've never heard any Phish so I don't know anything else he's done. The album itself has a whole bunch of songs I keep going back to and the rest are very good but haven't quite hit me in the same way, still with songs like "Little Faces," "The Army's on Ecstacy" and "Shadow of a Man" then of course there's the title track "The Grand Pecking Order" too, it really is a great little album in my humble opinion (alright I'm not much good with punctuation today but at least I've avoided offending people, I hope!). Mike McLaughlin "Originality is a small pamphlet distributed in 24 hour garages" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:34:45 +0100 From: "C. Skina" Subject: 24 bits 5.1 question Gentle Crimheads, Does anyone have information about present/future King Crimson / Fripp 24 bits releases? Are they 5.1 mixed? I have ELP's Brain Salad Surgery (DVD-Audio) and it's fine work. I hope one day I'll be listening to my favorite Crimson and soundscapes in such open fileds of sound :-) Thanks Christian Skina ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 15:26:16 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: In Reply to "Prog rock and heavy metal"... >Forgive me if I have missed the mention, but what happened to Jethro >Tull in the discussion of progressive rock? ...Yeah, where have Tull been? I recently saw them in August, and they blew me away. They are definetly a great prog band, and, to me, revolutionary. Ian Anderson is truly a genius, and a fantastic musician. Martin Barre and the entire band really impressed me after seeing them for the first time. After over 30 years of so many great albums from them, I think it's time we start aknowledging their existance, eh? "The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams..." ---Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 15:44:59 EST From: Kissman24 at aol dot com Subject: In reply to "The Younger Generation"... Ah, the younger generation of KC fans...We're a rare breed, you know. Now that, especially here in New York, kids my age are listening to such disposable garbage as Britney Spears and NSYNC. I attend one of the many Intermediate Schools that is dominated by kids who just refuse to sit down and LISTEN to music, y'know? You can't half-way listen to a KC song and say "That's great." Ya' gotta FEEL the music, don't you think? I'm sick of these no-talent teenagers coming along and stealing the spotlight from people that really deserve it...like Fripp and the whole KC Crew. I'm 12 years old, I'm in the seventh grade, and I'm probably the most unpopular kid in my school...Why? Because I have a love of music that is greater than the love for most children's parents. Notice I said I have a love of MUSIC...Not the latest Teen Pop Princess; MUSIC. Music from people WITH talent, like Ted Nugent, KISS, Black Sabbath, King Crimson and Fripp, Iron Maiden, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Lynyrd Skynyrd, (old) Aerosmith, etc. Today at the local mall I saw a kid about my age with an Yngwie Malmsteen shirt on...and I was proud. Proud because I can see that there is hope for rock and roll to make it to the Next Generation...And you gotta believe in the music to keep it alive...I'm pretty sure that WE believe...And I'm rambling, sorry... "In our hands we hold the future, carry on...In our hearts, eternally, we Keep The Flame Burning..."-HammerFall, "Keep The Flame Burning" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:07:35 -0000 From: "c & m bartlett" Subject: Brondesbury Road Anyone else out there notice an imminent GG&F release called The Brondesbury Road Tapes? It is on Voiceprint and seems to be the same staff that appeared on Metaphormosis, (looks like we needn't have bothered buying that one...) plus several more previously unknown tracks. Amazon give the release date as 10 December. Cheers Michael Bartlett ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:03:06 -0800 From: ira aronin Subject: Frippocrite I am prompted to write for the first time, though I have been a stalwart fan since the first album, and have seen the band ( in various permutations) half a dozen times, by reports of poor sound reinforcement on the current tour. To me this points out a major flaw in Fripp's persnicketyness regarding the audients creating an environment where he/KC can create optimal music (No flashbulbs, etc)---the band has the primary obligation to create an environment where the sonic representation of the musical ideation is good---to put it plainly, the band has a responsibilty to play in venues where the sound is good and to monitor the quality during the performance. Particularly, having the sound at volumes which is causing auditory damage is indefensible. Whatever creative wounds the music may suffer from the flash bulbs of ignorant or maladjusted persons in the audience are far less important than permanently damaging people's hearing. Ira Aronin Eugene, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:26:46 GMT From: mike at mjckeh dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Cross) Subject: Re: G, G and F LP In ET #889: > From: Serge Bellerose > Subject: G,G anf F > I need help regarding shops/stores where I can order/find info > regarding GGF new LP (LP only) release Metaphormosis...I just read about > in MOJO. > Links anyone? The LP was a pretty limited edition, and may well be all gone now. However, all is not lost as Voiceprint have just released a CD called "The Brondesbury Tapes" which seems to contain all that was on "Metaphormosis" and more. For more info see Voiceprint's site at http://www.voiceprint.co.uk For stockists in North America, try The Artist Shop at http://www.artist-shop.com/, or Wayside at http://www.waysidemusic.com all the best, -- Michael J. Cross Visit http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk for BSFA Magazine Index, and John Cipollina Discography New, improved BSFA Index at http://www.santaroga.uklinux.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:39:53 From: "Matt D" Subject: Ear candy Before this thread is killed. A band that I think is one of the most exciting bands I have heard in a long time, Lake Trout. If you have never heard of these guys or their music I highly recommend it! They play often on the East Coast and the live show is something to talk about. Anyone else listen to these guys? M...................................................................att ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:09:47 -0500 From: "Smiths" Subject: KC - Gabriel video In response to Kris M & Michael Campiglio remarks about music videos being, indicative of, and resulting in selling out to the mainstream. King Crimson did do a video to Sleepless way back when. I remember Fripp remarking on how annoying the whole process was. The fact that they did this video had absolutely no impact on anything. And it was ironic that MTVs way of dealing with it was to of course put it on at 3:30 am, so rarely did anyone see it! (Other than Peter Sinfield's Night People sliding in between.) When I was videotaping I was thinking this sure ain't going to happen again, and it hasn't. Around the same Adrian did his version of I'm Down from Twang Bar King in a video. If it these videos had any impact on the band, it became part of the disillusion that later surrounded ToaPP, that led to them ceasing to exist for a decade. They did NOT want to go this route obviously. The video is in average condition, but in mono I think. There is a long and short version. I also recorded I'm Down: Pretty goofy. Other interesting stuff of this tape that has been sitting on a shelf for 15 years and practically forgotten: Spinal Tap's X-mas performance on SNL w/ an "interview"; Roxy Music doing More than This; Peter Gabriel & Laurie Anderson doing This is the Picture (a true gem); Phillip Glass: Act iii, The Photographer; A wonderful video of XTC's Dear God from Skylarking. Also some stuff from Jay Leno: ELP doing something from Black Moon and Fanfare for the Common Man. And lastly, Peter Gabriel (w/ Tony Levin and others) doing Digging in the Dirt and a little other US material - the tape ran out near the end. During the break he talks about the painstaking video process of lying still for four hours getting cramps while they put stop motion creepy crawly things on his face. Got a Grammy for this stuff as I recall. And there's an interspersed appearance of director David Lynch. Jay must have been doing peyote that night. Being talk show fodder didn't change Peter much, unless him not putting out a vocal studio recording in ten years is an indication! These later recordings are clean and done on a HiFi VCR. Peter has been one of the very few artists who have done videos that have complemented his work. Some silly, others moving like the one he did for Don't Give up w/ Kate Bush. And I think I can share w/ E-T readers that the first time I saw/heard that life affirming video I was sitting in a psych ward being treated for clinical depression. Spooky? The right thing at the right time growing out of such commercialism. Like a flower from a cow turd. Peter's video collections are a cut above all the others, but one wouldn't expect any less from him. In general though I would agree w/ most E-Ts that video has done more to ruin music worth listening to than anything. For one thing, I don't like an image being indelibly stamped into my brain in an area that imagination creates its OWN video. And of course these days it matters more how a performer looks than whether they can play worth a shit. A sad end product of what could be an inherently good thing, but clearly is not. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Subject: Think outside of the box!!!! One of the most important lessons that I have learned in my life is to think outside of the box. It pays off. You have got to appreciate the Crim for doing this so fantastically. They have broken inumerable boundaries in music. This is not something that happens everyday. Other than a handful of "prog" bands that have managed to keep their intact their integrity, King Crimson are the sole survivors of a completely unique genre of music. Music like this is of most importance for everyone. It begins to raise questions: Why MTV telling me that *Nsync are good, and their album is so great? Why? why? why? If your like me then hearing things like this make you vomit. And after you wipe off your shoes you should tell yourself "I refuse to bow to Carson fucking Daly"! Odd time signatures, key changes, tempo changes, polyrhythms all force the listener to actually pay close attention to what is going on in the time occupied by the music. Catchyness should not be a neccessary element in a song. Don't let MTV ever tell you what the right "popular" thing to do is. Listen to Crim, love it, and give the single finger salute to anyone that tries to tell you that Limp Bizquick are talented. ===== ...and so with gods and men, the sheep remain inside their pen, though many times they see the way to leave.-from "Firth of Fifth" by Genesis. Selling England by the Pound 1973. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:40:16 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:19:09 -0500 >From: "Ryan Tassone" >Subject: VROOOM VROOOM: a rulebreaker! >6. ..."Indiscipline"! Ade Belew is a comic! He starts by talking way too > fast, then slow, then does some weird guitar synth thing, it's genius. Ah, yes. :) This is one of my favourite songs. From the different recordings I have of this song, he never quite does the song the exact same way twice, but then the way the song is set up, it does give a lot of room for push and pull. It's crazy, but as you said, it's genius. :) I love it. "I WISH YOU WERE THERE TO SEE IT!!" w00t! Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:23:47 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: The Younger Generation? George writes: > Well, concerning the newer generation - I'm one of them and proud of > listening to King Crimson (I'm 17). And I don't give give a crap about > Limps or Knots, openly I just have to agree with George here and comment on this generation. Popular music has taken a new low. The crap that they put out now, my god, i could go on and on about it. MTV is truly the biggest waste of time. It is rare when i even see a video at all let alone a video for a band that isnt either really bad or really popular. Can anyone tell me if they even have 120 minutes left? last time i checked it was the ONLY reason to keep MTV on the air (despite my guilty pleasure of sometimes watching the real world), but i dont even think thats on anymore.Its not MUSIC television anymore, its MONEY television. Supporting only what is popular is a terrible way to represent music. I wanna know who is running that damn station, because MTV is sure rich enough now to put anything they damn well please on that network, and they continue to have TRL, and other versions of TRL, and stupid TV shows like WRESTLING! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT!?, and yet they need a second channel devoted to MUSIC now that you have to pay extra for. that has to be the biggest joke in the world. I get disgusted and shocked by stupidity by my peers all the time, and not jsut in music taste. But I dont have any friends who listen to crap, not many anyway. I dont have any friends (except a 40 year old coworker) who like king crimson (only a few have heard of them), but i dont have any friends who are limp bizkit fanatics either. on a side note i dont hate anyone in music right now as much as i hate fred durst. anyway, Most of my friends listen to good , and intelligent music... be it rock metal rap dance techno or any variation of those, so i can say that there are a few people still supporting good music, and id like to say im pleasantly surprised to find the last like 3 or 4 younger Crimson fans on this newsletter, i honestly thought i was the only one. Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:48:56 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: more MTV and music industry thoughts >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:31:08 -0500 >From: Kevin Holm-Hudson >Subject: Re: more MTV and music industry thoughts >Actually, they made two--for "Heartbeat" and "Sleepless." Although >ignored by MTV, they were played on the USA Network's much-missed >"Night Flight" program. Yes, actually someone e-mailed me privately about that the day after I wrote that post. Which isn't all bad, really. I mean, video would be an interesting way to experiment with your music and also to get more exposure and a larger fan base. But, the fact they haven't done one since I think is an indicator that, perhaps, they found that music videos just isn't the style of Crim. I could be wrong, there could be other factors at play, but at least they haven't come to depend solely on music videos to obtain new loyal listeners. Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:33:35 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: Crim Selling out ken brown writes: > even Elephant Talk all could have easily garnered huge airplay on > the New Wave stations if the Crim moniker wasn't attached to it. (that bad > association to prog did them in) I agree, does anyone agree with me that Elephant Talk songs very Talking Heads- Remain In Light material? The first time i heard Elephant Talk i thought "this could easily be on Remain In Light.. Belew even sounds like Byrne in this song".. i mean actually its not at all the sound of the takling heads, certainly not the instruments, but i definately see a similar sound there, even the lyrics. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:38:57 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: MoneyTeeVee- music video art Its so true, there are som brilliant and groundbreaking videos out there, and a band like Crimson (id hope at least) could easily do something innovative that would ahve excelled their reputation as artists. As someone who wants to study film and among other things make music videos because there is a vast amount of potential for extreme and experimental images and techniques easily used in videos, i think that music videos can be ana amazing thing. and also, your are right the simpsons is the best show ever. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:44:40 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Crimson T-shirts For a while, before actually checking the DGM catalogue , i wondered if KC had any tshirts or how i could get them. Now that i know and ive seen what they have to offer i am very disapointed. I would have liked to think KC, who have come up iwth some very creative themes and art and music etc, could have come up with something more interesting then slapping the CD cover on a TShirt and selling it. Come on now, guys. TShirts, like music videos , are a good way of representing how fucking cool a band is. I personally want to reprsent a cool band, so im probably gonna get one, but it will by no means be my favortie band tshirt. I said in another post i think KC could do a lot with a video, but i could also see them not getting into it and having it be something simple and stupid, perhaps just live footage (which wouldnt be bad, jsut not creative) and me being disapointed with it. i feel the same way about the tshirts. the best tshirt i saw was the red discipline one, only cause the cd cover is a cool design and it has a great quote on the back. oh well Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:16:16 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: Crim 'Selling Out" to MTV >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:09:10 -0500 >From: "Brown, Ken" >Subject: Crim 'Selling Out" to MTV >Besides pointing out the obvious that Crim did make at least one 'video' in >the early 80s. As I stated in the post I just sent [which, I realize you haven't read by the time I wrote this :)], I was informed of that the next day. No big deal. I'm open enough that I'll accept being corrected by people, simply because I hadn't known beforehand. :) >I also think people forget or weren't around way back then, Nope. I was born in 1980 and I learned of Crim in around 1996/1997. :) Bit of a time lapse, eh? >but at the time MTV would air just about any video, Crim wouldn't have been >selling out. Do you think Tool sold out for their video 'Sober'?? Or >Metallica's early videos? Or a host of other bands? No. >What is 'selling out' anyway? This has been thrown around here lately in >conjecture with the what went wrong with prog crap. Personally, I am not trying to imply that anything has gone wrong with any genre of music. So please don't get me wrong on that. As for "selling out:" When a group or artist "sells out" it means that they've gone mainstream with their music. When a group signs to a major label, they are literally selling their music [their musical soul] to that label. Modern record companies are hell on the bands that sign to them. If you want to leave after your contract you can, but you can't release any songs on other albums that you released on that label, and that label has full rights to your music that you published with them. The other issue, other than selling the rights of your music to a major label, is the fact that for many groups that *do* sign, the appeal for them is the increase in money and exposure that major labels can offer, and which smaller labels cannot. Now, I'm not sure if this has always been the case with major labels, but I do know that in current times, this is certainly the case. Now.. as for my views on "selling out:" I can understand if a group wants to sign to a major label for more money and more exposure. I mean, even under a major label, being a musician pays beans, unless you make it big-time. My qualm is when the quality of music ends up lacking; when a group stops writing for the sake of creativity and the love of music, and starts writing just to get a "hit" that will "sell," that's when I have a problem. I'm a lover of music for the sake of music - not because a song made it to a top [insert-number-here] list. >Did Yes move in a different direction, well yes, they did what Fripp did in >the 80s add new blood into the mix. Now if the sound that came out was >something you didn't like so be it, but it was as much a change as Crim >went >through in 80s. To be honest, I like the older Crim better than the newer Crim, but that's besides the point. There is nothing wrong with groups experimenting with their music and trying out different sounds, even if it's the popular sound of that day. The only time *I* have a prob, is when a group starts writing songs with the obvious means to an end of getting "hits." The best example I can think of [even if this is a different genre] is Shania Twain. If you've ever heard her songs, they're not meant to be country songs, as they're classed. They're meant to be hits on pop charts - and they usually end up there, too. She's a sell-out to the blatant extreme. I am not trying to imply for a moment that KC is or ever was a sell-out. >I find a lot of this laughable because the Crim80 cds (which are some of my >favorites) include some of the poppiset tunes Crim ever did. Heartbeat, >Sleepless even Elephant Talk all could have easily garnered huge airplay on >the New Wave stations if the Crim moniker wasn't attached to it. I agree that they could've, but even if they had, that's not automatically selling out. I mean, the evidence of the albums after that time is clear - they don't keep their music geared to sell hits. Ergo, they're not selling out, they're the same creative, ingenious group that we've grown to love [some of us far longer than others]. >It seems to me too many people are using the term sell-out to mean a band >started to make money or did something they did like anymore. I agree. Go into any mainstream area and call out "Can anyone tell me what a 'sell-out' is?" and you're likely to get such a response. However, my opinion I have found reflected in more the indie/underground levels of music fans - those who prefer artists and bands who have not reached the mainstream yet. The definitions of "sell-out" there still vary, but they concentrate more on either selling out to a music company, or selling to a music company and gearing your songs for more sales, and not for the love and sake of music. Well as Mr. >Fripp as said it time to move on! To me when a band tries to jump on the >band wagon of current trends to make hits is selling out. Ah! :) I see you and I agree after all. I should've read further down before replying [bad habit of mine, I'll admit]. >It always amazes me how much time people spend talking about bands they >don't like and why they suck, instead of bands they do like! Not me. :) Ask my friends. I talk more about KC than any other group, unless the conversation is specific to a different genre/artist. >well keep the faith (in the music) Always. :) It's one of my two passions in life. Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:21:05 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Subject: Re: more MTV and music industry thoughts >>Actually, they made two--for "Heartbeat" and "Sleepless." Although >>ignored by MTV, they were played on the USA Network's much-missed >>"Night Flight" program. >>Kevin Holm-Hudson They did? did you see them? can you describe them.., and do you know where i could get to see them? Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:25:56 -0800 From: bobabuoy at pacbell dot net Subject: GIG REVIEW: Fripped off KC IN LA The worst mix I have ever heard at a KC show. I've seen them 8 times......for such a group of "Pro's", what the hell was that???? sorry fanboys.....it belew (BLEW)!!!! Godnight Now ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #894 ********************************