Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #891 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 891 Friday, 16 November 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Tickets for sale to the Kansas City show they told him what to dream Level 5? Re: More MTV and music industy thoughts Re: evolution through failure Re: What is prog/KC and Alvin Lee Re: ear candy Re: Epitaph Reply to "Ear Candy" Re: Les Claypool Does Crimson... and Pet Gab! Re: ear candy Oysterhead and other stuff KC defined definitely! A SIMPLE QUESTION ABOUT THE PLAYERS HAPPY TEN & MANY MORE Oucho Sparks? Ear Candy Any word of recent shows(reviews) was "fusion" American "prog?" GIG REVIEW: November 14, The Warfield, San Francisco, CA, USA ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:38:44 -0600 From: "Tom Bathe" Subject: GIG BIZ: Tickets for sale to the Kansas City show I have four General Admission tickets for sale to the John Paul Jones/King Crimson show in Kansas City, MO on Nov. 27. I purchased the tickets from the SCI Ticketing web site. I'm selling them for face value; $33.50. I'd like to sell all four together, but will consider selling them in pairs after Nov. 22 (U.S. Thanksgiving). Here is a link to the venue's web site which has a seating chart. http://www.madridtheatre.com/index.asp If interested, please email me at tbathe at kc dot rr dot com Thanks, Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: they told him what to dream A guitarist from a popular rock band falls apart when his wife leaves him for a jazz player. He is taken by an epistolary fit and writes grieving, biting and ironic letters not only to his friends and acquaintances, but also to Elephant-Talk, a venting area for rock know-it-alls. What is he to do in this moment of crisis, pull Fripp from the archives and ask him for a solution? The stricken man, as he tries to put himself together again, becomes clearly aware of the preposterousness of such an effort. "What rock and roll needs," he writes at last, surrendering to the absurdity of his state, "is a good five-cent synthesizer." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:09:17 EST From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Level 5? I'll add my voice to the growing chorus of those who can't catch KC on the current tour, but are dying to hear the new stuff.. is anyone out there willing to pick up an extra "Level 5" EP at a show and mail it to me? I'll pay for the CD & shipping. Please email if you can help.. I'd greatly appreciate it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:15:47 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: More MTV and music industy thoughts >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:51:05 -0500 >From: "Michael V. Campiglio" >Subject: More MTV and music industy thoughts >Sure King Crimson could have benefited through video's, but that success >would have come with a price. In the end, things worked itself out; King >Crimson and others like them, have maintained their artistic integrity and >there are a lot of bands in the "where are they now?" category. Okay, I'm not sure what exact point you're trying to make here, but basically I think Crim made a wise decision by not producing a video. I mean, if you think about it, most groups that decide to have a video made, are making a conscious decision to go main stream with their sound. But Crim has never really seemed like the sort of group who was concerned with that, in my opinion. I mean, maybe some songs like 21st Century Schizoid Man could make it, and certainly have with covers by such groups as April Wine, but I mean honestly: could you honestly say that Fripp would take Crim into mainstream music? I couldn't. To me, Crim is about music, experimenting with music, and trying to get certain thoughts or messages across through the same. I couldn't see them suddenly turning that focus from music to money. That would be what is known as "selling out." Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:16:21 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: evolution through failure >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:50:49 -0500 >From: "Michael Destefano" >Subject: evolution through failure >Evolution is the end result of growth, without it >you end up with old men sleepwalking through stagnant rehashes. eg: 1980's >prog. Um... what planet are you from? Evolution is *not* the end result of growth. Evolution is adaptation and change, in response to environmental stimuli. KC has always been in a state of evolution, and as such as sometimes gone into a "dormant" state, and had sometimes come back out of "hibernation" to assemble as a group once more, but in a different form. Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:16:47 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: What is prog/KC and Alvin Lee >Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:52:13 +0000 >From: "lawrence moseley" >Subject: What is prog/KC and Alvin Lee >Prog is not, no way, never pop. Pop to me means disposable kiddie >music(?). Prog is the OPPOSITE of pop. (Yes I am shouting that bit- sorry >but...this is something I do feel very strongly about Pop is not a genre of music. Pop literally refers to "popular music." Unfortunately, somewhere along the lines this definition has been perverted to refer only to a certain style of music, which is almost suiting as that styles does, unfortunately, tend to be the most popular music of our times. It is sad that such a simple, repetitive and creativity-lacking genre should be so popular. I suppose that is just a reflection of a society which does not take the time to properly appreciate music and music styles. Rather, it just accepts blindly whatever comes to hear, believing that to be a pure example of true music. It's enough to make me want to ralph. Or at least... submerge myself in the music of Crim, and reacquaint myself with a terrific example of true musical talent and creativity. Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:17:23 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: ear candy >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 00:51:07 -0600 >From: "Tracy Family" >Subject: ear candy > >In reading the last few ET's I find myself smirking and sometimes laughing >out loud. We folks sure do take our music seriously! I sometimes envision >the people on the list listening to a twelve-tone work by Schoenberg for >fun >rather than as an academic excercise. We tend to look for music with >complicated polyrythmic, polyphonic aspects to it, but I have to wonder if >I'm alone in enjoying a more basic main-stream kind of music from time to >time. LOL!! I entirely agree. :) But I've generally often listened to "ear candy" through my life. I love King Crimson for the exact reason that it is one of the few bands, of not one of the only bands today, that uses polyrhythms and other such musical mechanics which are not common in most music. However, I do listen to New Rock, Classical Rock, Symphony, Jazz, Country, Electronic, and sometimes even Comedy songs. :) I listen to whatever I feel like, but more often than not, it ends up being a King Crimson CD. Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:17:43 -0500 From: "Kris M" Subject: Re: Epitaph >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:41:26 -0000 >From: "Glyn Morton" >Subject: Epitaph >Anyone going to the gigs, enjoy! > >Glyn They're in my town on December 5th. :) I bought tickets as soon as I heard about the show on a local radio station. This will be the first opportunity I've ever had to see them live, so believe me when I say that I'm excited to go! :) It's gonna be a blast!!! Kris M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:47:27 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Subject: Reply to "Ear Candy" As a relatively new King Crimson fan (I wasn't even born until Discipline came out) I am proud to be amongst such a group of TRUE music fans, that really appreciate the artform of creating lovely "air sculptures". In reply to "ear candy" which appeared in ET #889 I would like to share with you the other music that I have been listening to: (I wouldn't call them "guilty" pleasures because I love everything that I listen to and am very proud to listen to it, this is rather what I listen to when I don't want to hear complexities and just be moved.) 1.)Longwave-Endsongs. This is a great CD (too bad it isn't available on vinyl). They are a really great rock band that adds a lot of effects to their guitars. They can, however, play them very effectively. Great songwriting, great noises, though a bit "poppy" (try it you'll like it) 2.)Megadeth-Rust in Peace. This is a genious album. The guitars are absolutely, painstakingly perfect, and although it is "metal" you need to get past that and just listen to the album. GREAT! 3.)Neil Young-Harvest. Very moving, heartfelt songs, you can not not love this album. 4.)At the Drive in-Relationship of Command. Very tight, energetic complex guitar playing. Many things going on at once. 5.)Genesis-The Lamb. This has got to be the best Genesis album. Not a wasted second on all 4 sides. Great playing, writing, story, the whole thing. I don't know how they got influenced to write such music that was soooo ahead of its time, in fact I still don't think that the time has come. 6.)Sonic Youth-Daydream Nation. This is a brilliant album that will change right before your ears each time that you listen to it, wonderfully noisy and dangerously experimentally. As for King Crimson I am a fan of the John Wetton days, those are some really spacious, experimental, and brilliant albums. Red being the best, I think. Though the Belew, Fripp, Levin, Bruford stuff is great in its own right too, completely redefining the "radio friendly" song (Dig Me, Heartbeat). Well that is my time. If anyone is going to the KC show on December 4 in Buffalo, NY I will see you there. Woo-hoo. ===== ...and so with gods and men, the sheep remain inside their pen, though many times they see the way to leave.-from "Firth of Fifth" by Genesis. Selling England by the Pound 1973. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:41:21 +0100 From: Frederic Paresy Subject: Re: Les Claypool Does Crimson... and Pet Gab! And you should hear the Primus version of "Intruder" and "Family and the fishing net" from Peter Gabriel which are great and stranger than the orginal one. Fred Paresy - France ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:25:25 -0500 From: Steve Rewa Subject: Re: ear candy There are definitely a bunch of bands I'm fond of for a little simpler stuff. My big one to get blasted over is Ted Nugent. I really like his guitar style. I get a kick out of Lynard Skynyrd too. A lot of the stuff I consider ear candy is stuff that isn't really good, but funny enough to be really entertaining. For that reason I really like a little Warren Zevon eg Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner, and Blue Oyster Cult's Godzilla. I also dig a lot of the stuff by Spinal Tap. Yeah, I know it's a movie, but the songs are real. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:17:29 -0500 From: "Robert Bennett" Subject: Oysterhead and other stuff Hello folks: First, the band Oysterhead has mande a very interesting album. Being a fan of The Police, Primus (and Claypool's other projects), and Phish - I was really looking forward to this disc. It is well worth the purchase. Second - I loved the post on "guilty pleasures". One of the problems I've felt with the string about "prog" and it's decline, is that it appears to me that an awful lot of ETers are music snobs. If it isn't Genesis, Crimson, or Yes, you're an idiot. While I love those bands, there is an awful lot more music out there to listen too. Music is or should be "inclusive" and not "exclusive". This doesn't mean you can't discriminate - everybody does and that's fine. However, the level of "snobbism" here is frightful. It reminds me of debates I use to have while in college with music major types who felt that if you didn't listen to classical music you were dim in the head. Or jazz folks who felt (feel) rock is for the dumb and low class masses. The comment made a few posts back about punk rock being for the ugly - is a prime example of this snobbism in full blossom. Well I love King Crimson music but I also love punk - so I guess I'm one of the ugly! Power to the Ugly! Guilty pleasures - well here are some of mine (although I don't feel "guilty" about listening to any of this music): Ian Hunter (or Mott the Hoople) The Clash The Jam Elvis Costello Iggy Pop Patti Smith Lou Reed (and Velvet Underground) David Bowie The Damned Jonathan Richman Echo & The Bunnymen Afghan Whigs REM The Waterboys (and Mike Scott) Grant Lee Buffalo Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Jimmy Cliff The Specials The Cure The The Jeff Buckley Neil Young Daniel Lanois Bob Dylan Ryan Adams Hank Williams and well on and on and on. I love music, I love song writers who can't play more than three or four chords, I love Miles Davis and Muddy Waters to Steve Reich to classical etc.... I too would like to see if others on this site feel this way or is it that there is only "one" kind of music worthy of our time and attention? There is no music police in my house.l Bob Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:39:30 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: KC defined definitely! Definitions are often sought, so here's mine: King Crimson play music that sounds good. Simple, huh? John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:54:45 -0700 From: Judy Maltz Subject: A SIMPLE QUESTION ABOUT THE PLAYERS A long time fan of King Crimson just found out they're playing in Phoenix AZ on 11/16... Can you tell me who is performing on this tour? [ replies by private email only, please -- Toby ] thank you, jmaltz at hds-mckhboc dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Basile Subject: HAPPY TEN & MANY MORE Ten years wowsville! The years before you bought anything with a crimson memeber on it just to get some new information on them, and 99% of the time the music was very cool too! Because of ET, I attented The Horede Tour and Three Gs' on time, while others were late. Meet many great Eters at concerts. Gotten some great music, Crimson and more! I've been scolded by Robert. Met and talked to Chris Murphy, Bill Bruford, and had Alan Holdsworth buy me a beer! Broadend my musical horizons. Made some super epals, and learned about the best band in the world. So thanks Toby and staff, can't really thank you enough. In honest I would of paid for this service. This brought back memories of one of my first post to this amazing newsletter. It is one of the best historical reviews of Fripp and his early contributions to rock IMHO. So, with some spelling corrections, here it is! ___ Read a neat book that had a true reference or two about RF & KC.It talks about Jimmy Page and states,(ROCK OF AGES THE ROLLING STONES HISTORY OF ROCK AND ROLL ;by E. WARD, G. STOKES, K. TUCKER; 1986)"Though less influential, probably because more eccentric, King Crimson's Robert Fripp was even more inventive guitarist than Page." "Even before Frippertronics in the late 1970's, it seemed that Fripp could make his guitar do anything" "If Fripp specializes in anything, it was surprise; altered rhythm jarring dissonance in the midst of a melody(& vice versa)" It was for these qualities that he was most valued in New York's avant-garde scene in the early to mid 1980's, and even at Crimsons most portentous, Fripp always kept their audiences pleasantly off balance." But for all the impish humor that kept peeking through his solos, was like Page in one crucial way; Each successive album revealed that its predecessor had actually been restrained." "Fripp constantly pushed his art of surprise to the very edge one step further and surprise would have been impossible, because nothing, or everything,could have been anticipated." "Neither the heavymetal bands following Led Zeppelin, nor the post-Crimson art rockers ever managed with any consistency, to situate their restraint with the precision of Page or Fripp." "Given the year, they went, it appears even more clearly in retrospect,as far as you could go."--Rock Of Ages The Rolling Stones History of Rock In Roll 1986/ Until TCOL!-Joe If you liked this post check out some of my others in the archeives under Basile. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:19:27 -0800 (PST) From: gina rhodes Subject: Oucho Sparks? Has anyone on this list seen/heard Oucho Sparks? I saw them recently and they definitely had some Crimson elements. I wasn't able to find their CD anywhere, so I had to order it from the website. I just got it today, and it may be in my top ten right now. Its a nice mix of Crimson, Zappa, Gentle Giant, Godspeed You Black Emporor, Chick Corea, etc . . . Very Original. Anyhow, I was just wondering if any of you had more info about this group, since it seems hard to find information on them. thanks gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:03:39 -0600 From: "Gordon Griffith" Subject: Ear Candy Hey ETers, My favorite recond store has closed up after 25 years. They were robbed 4 times in the 6 months and the owner couldn't make a profit. He was a great owner and very friendly. He turned me onto Porcupine Tree, Bozzio Levin & Stevens and other interesting music. I will miss him. The 'ear candy' thread interested me as a way to be exposed to groups, artists and albums I might not have heard about. Here is (are) my 5 'ear candies' as of this moment in this place ( could change by tomorrow - Moontan by Golden Earring Jesus Freak by DC Talk Porgy and Bess by George Gerswin The Mask and Mirror by Lorenna McKennitt La Sacre du Printeps by Igor Stravinky I look forward to hearing from other KC freaKs and expanding my own listening environment. Yours in Christ, R. Gordon Griffith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:52:59 -0500 From: "David Bird" Subject: Any word of recent shows(reviews) Hey any word on tour.has anyone been to a show ?Whats the song list ? how were the Nashville or San Fran shows?Whats up with John paul jones any info?? Dave from Indy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:24:49 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: was "fusion" American "prog?" Greetings ETers, Notwithstanding the fact that 3/4 of the current King Crimson lineup are American, many have noted that King Crimson and most of the other so-called "prog" bands come from the righthand side of the pond. Fripp has ruminated that he was influenced by Hendrix who in turn was clearly influenced by African-American forms like blues, ,jazz and early rock, and that in King Crimson, at least at one point many years ago, he hoped to develop a Hendrix-like approach to music based on European influences, including the "classical" tradition. I was recently listening to Miles Davis Live at the Fillmore East (the June17-20,1970 recording and not the March 7, 1970, recording) and it struck me that it sounded amazingly like a King Crimson improv. This led me to theorize that maybe the Fripp-like approach to music, based on American influences rather than European ones, was embodied in the "fusion" movement which Miles Davis essentialy developed between 1968 (Miles in the Sky) and 1969 (In a Silent Way) and then bombarded the Jazz world with in 1970's Bitches Brew. Of further interest is the fact that Davis had developed a friendship with and was planning a recording collaboration with Hendrix before Hendrix died. Was the psychadelic acid-rock purveyor of Purple Haze and Hey Joe the godfather of the prog and fusion movements? Maybe not, but he clearly influenced both, as he did the rest of more mainstream rock. The parallels between "prog" and "fusion" are interesting. Both movements peaked in the 1970's and were pretty much petered out by the mid 1980's. Both favored long, highly improvisational and complex pieces often with a sort of stream of consciousness feeling to them. Both forms required extraordinary instrumental competence. Both embraced or tended toward the avant garde. Neither relied primarily on vocals or even song structures. Neither was "pop" music or was geared toward airplay or widespread appeal. So maybe the lefthand shore was not the "prog" music void I had always viewed it as. Maybe the "prog" philosophy was being carried out in the African-American-influenced form generally called "fusion." Listening to post-1968 Miles Davis and his progeny I hear an awful lot of the same things that appeal to me in King Crimson and the other artists readers of ET seem to favor. And it seems that Davis really is the starting point for "fusion," perhaps even more than ITCOTCK was the starting point for "prog." So very many of the "fusion" artists got started as Miles' sidemen: Wayne Shorter and Joe Zawinul of Weather Report, Herbie Hancock, John McGlaughlin, Chick Corea and Airto Moriera, and there are probably others as well. When I see King Crimson tomorrow night here in Phoenix, I may find myself listening to Adrian, Trey and Pat and wondering if any of that African-American influenced tradition that gave us Hendrix and Miles Davis has had an influence in their musical development. One thing is certain, however, I won't be calling the music either "prog" or "fusion." I hate both of those restrictive and oversimplified labels! Eat your hearts out ETers, tomorrow I'm seeing the FRIPPSTER!!!!!!! John Moshier, Phoenix, Arizona, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:57:03 -0800 From: "Tom Ligda" Subject: GIG REVIEW: November 14, The Warfield, San Francisco, CA, USA Main Set: Dangerous Curves The ConstruKction of Light ProzaKc Blues Thela Hun Ginjeet EleKctric Dinosaur Level Five Elephant Talk Into the Frying Pan Larks Tongues in Aspic - Part IV Encore One: The Deception of the Thrush Frame By Frame Encore Two (Last): Red Heres my review of the King Crimson / John Paul Jones show last night at The Warfield in San Francisco. There are some serious spoilers, so dont read on if you dont want to see them! We started out with John Paul Jones, whose set I didnt really enjoy. It was just three guys, JPJ, a Stick player and a drummer. First of all, the sound was terrible. It was so very distracting from the music (imagine that!). I found myself reflecting on how terrible the sound was and how much I would love to hear what the heck the guitar players were playing! When they played a few Zeppelin tunes (Thats the Way, When the Levee Breaks, and Black Dog.) it was easier because I already know well how those songs go. However, with the JPJ material that I didnt know well at all, it was nigh impossible to make out any of the songs. I could tell there was a whole lot going on with the guitar players just by looking at them, but I sure couldnt hear it. It was just a huge mush. One interesting note about the JPJ set was that he went from 12-string bass to 8-string bass to mandolin to ukulele (!) to really-short-scale-(were talkin no longer than the ukulele)-electric-guitar to double lap steel guitar (I think). That was pretty interesting, but again I would have loved to hear it! Now, on to the main attraction. First, an attempt at a set list. Be forewarned, I wasn't writing anything down or working on remembering the set list, so inaccuracies abound, especially in the song order. Main Set: Dangerous Curves The ConstruKction of Light ProzaKc Blues Thela Hun Ginjeet EleKctric Dinosaur Level Five Elephant Talk Into the Frying Pan Larks Tongues in Aspic - Part IV Encore One: The Deception of the Thrush Frame By Frame Encore Two (Last): Red It was a really amazing show. This show I was able to stand stage right in front of Trey and get a great chance to appreciate his playing. I have to say Trey is the highlight of this particular show for me. Now, this all must be tempered by knowing that I am a bass player myself, so Im naturally disposed to appreciate the bass player more. The first thing I have to mention about Treys performance was his tone. It was bright, deep, full of life and a real joy to listen to. It mixed so well with the other instruments. There were so many highlights in the show. First, The Deception of the Thrush. This song just amazes me every time I hear them play it. It jumps out when I see it live like it never has when Ive listened to it on CD, live or otherwise. That very first bass drum completely fried my nose hairs! (Thanks, Pat!) Second, Larks Tongues in Aspic Part IV. I was really mesmerized by this song and just found myself getting lost in the whole experience. Great stuff! Third, Level Five. Ive never heard this one before and it was quite impressive. I was so glad to experience live a KC song Ive never heard before. I did pick up my copy of the Level Five EP CD. It looks like theyre individually numbered and Im the proud owner of #271. Nice. Ive only listened to Dangerous Curves so far and thats the only way I know the name of the first song in the set! Heres a track listing: Dangerous Curves Level Five Virtuous Circle The ConstruKction of Light The Deception of the Thrush So, get out there and see this show, its definitely worth it. Later, Tom ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #891 ********************************