Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #890 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 890 Thursday, 15 November 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Indianapolis Tickets Prog Defined Prog, NOT Defined Don't know if this is off-thread "CON" notation What about recent prog? The Rare Good L.A. KC Review pop/prog Re: Prog Sucks? Re: King Crimson & metal Oysterhead Soundscapes Download Frogs and Oysters Re: Les Claypool Does Crimson Variety in Music Re: Ear Candy Epitaph cover by In The Woods The Yonger Generation? What is Trey wearing on stage? M.T.V.D. ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:46:56 -0500 From: "Mike St. Clair" Subject: GIG BIZ: Indianapolis Tickets Greetings! Due to poor planning, I bought 4 tickets to the Indianpolis King Crimson & John Paul Jones show on the 26th of this month. It turns out that we will only be using 2 of the 4 tickets. The two remaining tickets are available for sale at cost ($81 for the pair---they would be $90 a pair from Ticketmaster IF they were available). The tickets are in section SORCHC, Row B, seats 19-20. Section 'C' of the orchestra is the (C)enter section as opposed to the (L)eft and (R)ight. These are KILLER advance seats bought from the premium pre-sale before Ticketmaster got their hands on them. If anyone is interested in the tickets, please contact me immediately at saintmick2001 at yahoo dot com and I'll get back with you ASAP. Thanks, Michael St. Clair ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:02:16 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Prog Defined In ET #888, Mark Tucker responded to my question about actually defining "prog" by saying, >>>>>Let me turn the question on you and have you understand the difficulty of it: YOU define it for us! Good luck, Contact me three lifetimes from now when you get out of the asylum. It is INDEED a we-know-it-when-we-hear-it situation, like it or not. Ill be ecstatic to have you prove me wrong.>>>>> Well, he may have meant me in particular, or he may have meant all of us, in saying "YOU." In either case... My first response is that I essentially agree with this conclusion. I mean, you give me a musical genre and a definition, I'll find an example to test the limits of your definition. But I thought that in his original essay/post on the genre, an addressing of the question of definition was somewhat conspicuous by its absence, even if this is where that addressing ends up going. And I did want to hear his thoughts on the topic, as I was certain he'd devoted some thought to it. It is one thing to say, "It is indefinable." It is another thing to say, "Here's how I came to that conclusion." Which he did, and which was somewhat enlightening. My second response is that I have a definition that I have been using, with some success, for years. Prog: Music to get stoned for the first time to. But then, that's no more marketable then the Bangs description... or is it? Cheers. --josh-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:06:33 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Prog, NOT Defined In ET #887, "Prog Frog" pondered: "What I also utterly fail to understand is why 'classic prog' sounds great and 'neo-prog' is garbage." I'd like to chime in on this topic. Except, I have no idea what either of these terms means. Oh well. My bad. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:44:53 -0500 From: "Martin Miron" Subject: Don't know if this is off-thread Don't know if this is off-thread or what, but I just had to let the world know all about my new prog-air-band. We do a lot of KC , Floyd and Yes, and our first album, called "Making Fun of Architects" is almost ready. What I need your help with is coming up with a name for the band. I just know this is the place to do it. Did I neglect to mention Uriah Heep? Marty Miron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:12:30 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: "CON" notation As we put together the meaning of progressive rock, it might be a good idea to read what some well-respected thinkers have said on the subject(art). Here is a quote from Saul Bellow which has an uncanny likeness to a progressive rock definition: That poets-artists-should give new eyes to human beings, inducing them to view the world differently, converting them from fixed modes of experience, is ambition enough, if one must offer a purposive account of the artist's project. What makes that project singularly difficult is the disheartening expansion of trained ignorance and bad thought. For to put the matter at its baldest, we live in a thought world, and the thinking has gone very bad indeed. Therefore the artist, whether or not he views himself as an intellectual, is involved in thought struggles. Thinking alone will never cure what ails him, and any artist should be grateful for a naive grace which puts him beyond the need to reason elaborately. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:15:30 From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: What about recent prog? Every type of music, every band has peaks and troughs. Even the Beatles had a couple of mediocre albums (i.e. Beatles For Sale, Magical Mystery Tour and Yellow Submarine). But, even with the supposed fall of prog rock in the '80s, does anyone care to give creedence to the resurgence of prog in the '90s? I say this because many people of my age were reintroduced to rock with the emergence of bands like Nirvana; it was a return to straight and simple rock and roll and we started learning once again about all these legendary bands like The Beatles, the Stones, The Who, Hendrix, etc. Once we got into Pink Floyd we were told (at least my cirKcle of friends, anyway) that we would like KC and early Genesis. Needless to say, we did. There were a few who thought it was too freaky and liked their simplistic, 4/4-timed, melody driven tunes. Lo and behold, more public interest was generated all around, these classic albums started selling once again and these great bands that we had heard about came back (ex. The Beatles Anthologies, Voodoo Lounge & Bridges To Babylon Tours, THRAK, etc.)! Some commented that this was an age of mundane reunions that were done simply for the money. Many people, myself included, thought that this was a great way to see some of the truly great bands that we didn't have the opportunity to see before and might not ever again. BTW-the period I'm referring to is-generally-1993 to the present. And if you're wondering about what age group I'm referring to, well, I'll be 25 on the day I see Crimson in Detroit this December. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:39:47 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: The Rare Good L.A. KC Review Since KC usually gets such bad or indifferent press in L.A., this write-up for their Universal Amphitheater concert was a bit unusual. Besides putting the boot in on Tool, it was surprisingly fair-minded in its assessive strengths. It appeared in the L.A.Weekly (or New Times...I clipped it and then forgot which rag I got it from). The writer is Jay Babcock: "Dunno about the size of the venue - are there really six thousand prog snobs and Guitar Institute graduates in the L.A. area? - but any chance at seeing the legendary King Crimson is action is a good thing. The last chance was in mid-August, when the relentlessly riffless Tool worked the honor-yer-elders / annoy-yer-audience / bathe in the associated glory angle by having the Crims open for their shows at the Wiltern, in the process administering a knockout blow to themselves. Crimson, playing an hour-long set to an at-best half-filled theater (thanks to a line being let in very slowly), was frightening. Spider-fingered guitarist/K.C. mainstay Robert Fripp and longtime vet / guitarist / vocalist Adrian Belew knit guitar lines in counterpoint tandem, while touch bassist Trey Gunn and percussionist Pat Mastellotto set tricky rhythms in roiling motion...before falling into an almost Sabbath-strength doom-pomp riff march or a solo run of you-just-hurt-my-brain complexity. The gents call it "nuovo metal" (also the working title for their in-progress studio album), and it was something fierce: dynamic, menacing music that proudly rollerbladed along the edge of crisis, recalling in many ways the hairiest parts of Crimson '69-'74. Tonight we'll get a lengthier set, as well as a fantastic opener in John Paul Jones, arguably Zeppelin's most underrated member and, given his work with Diamanda Galas, the Butthole Surfers and R.E.M., the member of the band with the most adventurous post-Zep career." Pretty cool. -Mark S. Tucker- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:39:35 +0000 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: pop/prog In ET 888, Lawrence Moseley opined: > Prog is not, no way, never pop. Pop to me means disposable kiddie > music(?). Prog is the OPPOSITE of pop. I disagree entirely that pop is necessarily "disposable", or indeed "kiddie music" (though it *acn* be either). To put it into some perspective, the Beatles were a pop band, REM are a pop band, both have made lasting contributions and are revered across age brackets. The Beatles not only made pop, they made great, lasting and innovative pop, and were actually far more progressive in many senses than at least some "progressive" bands. Same goes for the Beach Boys in their golden era. Prog is, IMHO, the opposite of *nostalgia* if it's the opposite of anything (and I'm not sure it is). Though that's not to say that one can't enjoy both: a lot of classical music is effectively a form of nostalgia, especially if you're using period instruments. What's ironic is that many so called proggies these days are really nostalgics at heart... Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:57:20 -0500 From: Sylvan Subject: Re: Prog Sucks? On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 01:05 PM, Elephant Talk wrote: > OK, OK, despite the subject line I didn't exactly think prog SUCKED per > se, > but the lyrical imagery and, to some extent, the quasi-classical > musicality > always seemed irrlevant to my world, growing up in 1970s NYC. (Indeed, I > still don't own a copy of Lizard, ITWOP, and the other fantasy-covered > crimson records.) I was never into Genesis that much, or Yes, or gentle > giant or any of that other crap. That's why i pretty much ignored King > Crimson and "The Court of the Crimson King", until one day... Lyrical imagery? Yeah, it's pretty much crap. I don't think anyone listens to prog for the lyrics. Of course, I'm not really a progger, either I suppose. The only other prog band I've managed to get into is Gentle Giant. I have a soft spot for them, because they didn't take themselves so damn seriously. (They apparently toured with a big sign on stage that said "PRETENTIOUS"...) But if you can get past the notion that their "quasi-classical musicality" is somehow corny, down to the damn good music underneath, "relevance" becomes irrelevant. -- Sylvan http://agodslife.cjb.net "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:34:16 -0500 From: "Christopher Dilkus" Subject: Re: King Crimson & metal >There seems to be a kinda of big coming out among non progressive >heavy-metal band about the Crim'. > [ITCOTCK stuff snipped] Not to mention Col. Les Claypool's Flying Frog Brigade covering Thela Hun Ginjeet on their first cd. The latest release by them is a full live cover of Pink Floyd's "Animals". Fun. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:37:51 -0500 From: "Brian" Subject: Oysterhead in response to Geordie Robertson regarding oysterhead- i purchased this album the day it came out, and was not to excited by it. It has some decent moments on it, but overall it sounds pretty stale to my ears. Not at all the same level of creativity found in older primus material. If your a very big fan of Les Claypool, it's an acceptable cd. Or if you're an obsessive Phish fan who loves Trey Anastasio then get it. I wouldn't recommend spending 16 bucks on it. Wait for the used bin. It'll be there shrotly. But on the positive side of things- I do very much enjoy the Fearless Flying Frog Brigade cd. Good solid stuff (though no originals). -brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:49:45 -0600 From: rex dot fermier at exeloncorp dot com Subject: Soundscapes Download On Friday, Nov. 9, 2001 mike Posted a message under the title of Soundscapes Download To quote Mike, > Just a quick post regarding the Soundscapes download. I am glad to see that > 'ol RF is providing a free download. Not that I particularly thought > there'd be a charge, but right after 9/11, the DGM guestbook was filled > with people requesting RF sell them to "ease the pain". I found it funny > how in that time of shock, a lot of people associated "easing the pain" > with making money. I personally objected to making any money on these > recordings in the DGM Guestbook under the guise of "easing the pain". End > of quote. I suggest that Mike take a look at this from another point of view. Perhaps they were hoping that spending their money would help themselves to be able to ease their own pain. Mr. Fripp doesn't need to be told how to make money in the music business. I read several of the postings that you referred to and understood them to be plaintive pleas to be able to purchase these recordings. By freely giving this recording away, Mr. Fripp renders the profit motive moot. I sincerely hope that whatever emotional comfort these people get from listening to this music will help them to recover from this horrific and senseless event. Rex Fermier ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:18:18 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Subject: Frogs and Oysters "Jordan Clifford" sez: > > Has anyone heard the version of Thela Hun > Ginjeet that Les Claypool and the Fearless Flying Frog Brigade does? > Personally I am a HUGE Claypool fan, and I love everything he has done > from Primus through the Frog Brigade. I think it was mentioned. FWIW, I think both of the "Live Frogs" CDs are great stuff. Lots of jamming, many creative arrangements, musicianship, humor, and the crunchiest version of Pink Floyd's Animals ever recorded by humans. And, since Claypool allowed taping at the shows, there are lots of good CDRs out there to trade. > To my dismay I did see some Primus bashing from one of the members > here... Mention any group and someone will bash it. Don't sweat it (and welcome to ET)! And now, for no apparent reason, I'm going to mention the Bevis Frond. > perhaps opinions i missed from when the Frog Brigade CD came out? It was mentioned. I do not recall much of a discussion. I'm not even sure anyone bothered to insult it (a bit of an insult, that). Geordie Robertson sez: > > I have heard tell of a new "prog" band called "Oysterhead" with Les > Claypool, Stuart Copeland(!) and some guy from Phish. Are they any good? > Is it worth buying the CD? I am posting this here because I trust and > respect the opinions of Crimso fans. I don't. I have observed very little consistency of opinion around here. But I'll give you my opinions anyway! - Les Claypool is a great performer. Got a chance to see him? Take it - Oysterhead is fun if you like mutant little pop/prog songs. IMO, Claypool's Fearless Flying Frog Brigade (lengthy mutant prog/rock originals and covers) strikes me as more likely to appeal to a Crim fan, but who knows? Looking forward to Oysterhead on 11/16, Jonathan (just another 40+ crim fan with a beard, tho I got my eyes zapped last year and no longer have the spectacles. In an effort to make up for it I got a new girlfriend who I'm pretty sure will not like crim. I'm trying to avoid getting kicked out of the club.) :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:17:35 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: Les Claypool Does Crimson In 889, Jordan Clifford writes: " Has anyone heard the version of Thela Hun Ginjeet that Les Claypool and the Fearless Flying Frog Brigade does? Personally I am a HUGE Claypool fan, and I love everything he has done from Primus through the Frog Brigade. To my dismay I did see some Primus bashing from one of the members here, I dont know if that opinion is shared or not..." It's not shared by me. I was not familiar with Primus until a few years back when I saw them in Washington, DC opening for Public Enemy (hey, I have broad tastes: That year I also saw Pink Floyd, the Robert Fripp String Quartet, the National Symphony Orchestra, Wynton Marsalis, Roy Clark (best guitar player I saw all year) and Chuck Brown, the Godfather of Go-Go) and when Les started playing the riff to Jerry Was a Racecar Driver I started cheering with recognition because I thought he was playing the opening riff to Elephant Talk! I went out and bought Sailing on the Sea of Cheese after that show and have been a Claypool fan ever since. I love his cover of Thela! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:25:11 EST From: Jaz6x6 at aol dot com Subject: Variety in Music I've been listening to KC's latest CD's, "The Construkction of Light" and "Heavy Construkction", and i've noticed something: practically all of the group's newest material is loud, heavy, agressive. I might be in the minority here, but I enjoy a wide variety of styles in my music. I also might be a hopeless romantic, but I miss the 'love songs' that the group did back in the days of yore, such as 'Matte Kudasai', 'Model Man', 'Walking on Air'......it just seems to me that, with all of these heavy songs dominating the repetoire of KC's music lately, the variety is lacking. Also, i've not heard any of the material for the upcoming album, as I live in Oklahoma, and the group has not come through here during either the Tool or the 'Level 5' tours. Is the new material also only thick and intense as well? All i'm saying is, I feel that there should be a greater variety in the new music that our favorite group is playing. I do realize that not everything they play is all loud, that there are some spacy improvs and techno-ish stylings, yet even these are dominated by brash distorted guitars, 3rds and 5ths, and the sort of ingredients which appeal to fans of heavy rock. Is the predominance of heavier material an act in hope of reaching out to a younger audience? If so, the guys need to realize that, although we youngers (i'm 19) are filled with a good deal of angst and brooding, we also have our share of longing and desire, not to mention that we pursue knowledge and fulfillment, and therefore a good love song or even a philosophically-tinged tune would be greatly appreciated. Look, i'm not saying that Adrian and company should pick up some acoustic guitars and hand percussions and start singing about flowers and rainbows: i'm just saying that it wouldn't hurt to have a little contrast in stylings. Just look at the title "The Construkction of Light"....it's actually ironic that the 'construction' is actually rather dark on this cd! I'm probably beating a dead horse, i.e. this might have already been discussed ad nauseam in past reviews, but it's food for thought. Thank you. Brandon Stanley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:24:20 -0600 From: "Brothers, Michael (IA)" Subject: Re: Ear Candy "Ear candy" or "guilty pleasures" are terms that connote that said music is somehow inferior to some other music, which of course brings judgment into play. One person's guilty pleasure is another person's orgasmic experience. We could argue semantics and the relative value of music ad nauseum, but then again, that is what people on this list LOVE to do. I think it a worthwhile exercise nonetheless and offer my top five (in no particular order): 'Republic' - New Order 'Oblivion' - Utopia 'Elton John's Greatest Hits Vol. 2' 'The Sickness' - Disturbed anything by Pat Metheny Take Care, mike Michael Brothers Iowa Army National Guard 515-334-2822 fax 515-252-4589 "Gravity. She's a cruel mistress." The Tick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:11:09 +0200 From: "Yossi Kolesnicov" Subject: Epitaph cover by In The Woods In ET #889 Manuel Rabasse wrote: > There seems to be a kinda of big coming out among non progressive > heavy-metal band about the Crim'. Just wanted to add to what he said that another band, In The Woods, has made a cover of "Epitaph", and it's on their album "Three Times Seven on a Pilgrimage". They're a gothic/progressive/whatever you call it band from Norway, unfortunately broke up some time ago (but they're working on editing a live album), and I guess they were influenced by Crimso. They were even more so influenced by Floyd (there's also a cover of "Let There Be More Light" on that CD. And no, they were not a cover band!), but still had their own style. Their version of Epitaph is quite excellent, with female vocals and some pretty rough moments, but more or less true to the original. Highly recommended in any case. Have a nice day, Yossi. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:22:04 -0000 From: "Dougie" Subject: The Yonger Generation? Hi, I've lurked with interest through the "prog" debate, as I was genuinely interested to see what the general concensus of opinion was regarding the "definition" of progressive rock. I started getting interested in buying music around 1975/6, when I was around 12/13. I had been brought up in a musical family, where my mother was an accomplished pianist, and my father (who didn't play), was a huge classical music buff. I started off listening to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Thin Lizzy etc. Then, one day in the record shop, (it cost #3.50 for a single album back then), I saw this triple live album by a band called Yes, and the cover was just way cool, and one by King Crimson, ITCOTCK, which was just as cool. Yes I did buy albums on the strength of an album cover. Something lacking these days with CD's if you ask me. But, hey, I'm just an old fart . As I had birthday money to spend, I got both, and the rest as they say is history. What is his point, you may ask yourselves. Well, when I let the guy across the street from me hear them, he quite liked them. When he discovered who they were, he said "Yes!, King Crimson!, they're prog rockers man! what are you listening to them for." Tonight at work (it was my turn on the rota to provide IT cover at work) I let the young trainee hear some KC. We were in a discussion about bass guitars (I play), and I had showed him a stick & a Warr guitar on the net. He was interested, so I said I'd let him hear one being played, and what it sounded like(I had CircKus with me). After hearing a bit of "Elephant Talk", where he just looked at me with a dumb expression. Some "Red", and some "Larks II", he announces "They're grunge aren't they" "King........who was it again? Do they cover any Pearl Jam stuff?" My 14 year old Limp Bizkit, Slipknot fan son and his mates, classify Nirvana as "hippies". I thought I was going to fall of my chair. The bottom line is, if it works for you, buy it and enjoy it, no matter what pigeon hole somebody has put it in. To those who have had the patience to read this far, it's good news for KC. He liked them, and would like to hear some more. My son, is a big fan of the Thrak album, and also loves Discipline, but I know my son wouldn't openly admit to liking KC to his mates, because they're not........, what's the pigeon hole for Limp Bizkti, Slipknot? Or is that another thread? Regards Dougie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:03:22 EST From: Josette484 at aol dot com Subject: What is Trey wearing on stage? I have this reoccurring vision of him in tight black leather pants and a crisp white shirt....... xoxoxox Josette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:20:10 -0700 From: Yuan Chen Subject: M.T.V.D. MTV? Never in his worst nightmares could Eisenstein have imagined the montage technique so brutally mutilated. For those of us familiar with Bill Messinger's images ( http://www.harleyportraits.com/coming_soon.htm ), it is probably safe to assume that he really does believe that opium is the television of the avant guard. YC ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #890 ********************************