Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #889 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 889 Wednesday, 14 November 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Free KC tix FAQ; a softer stance? King Crimson & metal Re: The 80's and MTV A plea for music Soundscapes Download MTV/St. Louis Re: I like long post's.....and, Ade Belew on 'Strange Little Girls' G,G anf F Fw: SCI/VROOOM VROOOM Collector's Club item on ebay ear candy Availbility of Nuovo Metal to the Europeans... Les Claypool Does Crimson Epitaph Nothing to do with KC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:12:08 -0700 From: Mike Donovan Subject: GIG BIZ: Free KC tix I have two FRONT ROW tickets for the Las Vegas Crimson show this Saturday night purchased in error. Although I woul love to get something out of them, I certaainly don't want them to go to waste. Just email before 5:00 today ( Tueday.) I will repost this tomorrow if there are no takers. I just want to avoid a flood of requests. Put king crimson in the subject line. Michael Donovan Systems Administrator, MCSE, MCP Embarcadero Technologies, Inc. Mike at gdpro dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:37:10 -0500 From: "Michael V. Campiglio" Subject: FAQ; a softer stance? After viewing the list of forbidden threads, I noticed one about "Yes albums that suck", and that was at the core of the Prog Rock Decline thread that brought about much debate. Am I to assume that a softer stance is being taken here, if so, I just want to give my fantasy Crimson line-up; only kidding... Regards, Mike Campiglio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:40:30 From: "Manuel Rabasse" Subject: King Crimson & metal There seems to be a kinda of big coming out among non progressive heavy-metal band about the Crim'. Apart from english band Saxon doing a cover of "In The Court Of Crimson King" on their last album, Killing Ground, and swedish dark/progressive metal Opeth admitting being strongly influenced by Fripp&co, viking/black metal Enslaved is just releasing a new "concept album called Monumension. Guitarist Ivar Bjonsson admits having a tatto of the cover of "ITCOTCK" on his shoulder and actually crying for the first time listening to music wih this records. He also admits Monumension is strongly inspired from Genesis "Selling England" and "In The Court..." I highly recommend listening to Momumension, it's still a bit extreme but is very interessting in the mixing of progressive and dark metal music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:25:33 +0000 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: The 80's and MTV In ET 886 Bill Messinger wrote: > Honestly, even if you disagree with me (as many of you undoubtedly will), > can you read the names of these songs and not "see" them? > "Girls Just Want to Have Fun", Cyndi Lauper > "Mickey", Tony Basil > "Beat It", Michael Jackson > "Hot for Teacher", Van Halen > "Like a Virgin", Madonna Aside from "Mickey", I don't remember anything about the videos for those! The videos may have helped, but IMHO they're good pop songs (well, don't actually know the VH one, but the others are) and good enough to succeed on their own merits. > Would Culture Club have been as popular if Boy George looked like-- oh, say, > Adrian Belew or Tony Levin? Would Cyndi Lauper have been as popular with > short brown hair? I don't think so. You're probably right, but there again would the Beatles have been so popular without some calculated preening from their management? The Stones used a media image superbly: would they have sold so many records without their "dangerous" veneer? Doubt it I take your point, but I think you may well be overstating it. Image has meant a lot in the rock business for well before TV, never mind MTV, was pervasive. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 15:49:39 -0000 From: Sandy Starr Subject: A plea for music I was incensed by the infamous 'decline of prog' email that has sparked such debate on ET. Some of the comments posted I agree with more than words can say, some comments incense me all the more. Fripp has said that 'expectation is a prison'. It is, and so are categories, labels and historical context. Great music transcends both the circumstances in which it was made and the people who made it. 'Prog' is best understood not as a musical genre, but as a liberating sense of what was possible that flourished at a certain time. This liberated sense of what was possible created a haven for great music, and simultaneously created a haven for certain things we now cringe at. It legitimised flares, slapdash political idealism, narcissistic pretension and Jon Anderson lyrics. But the music, at its best, leaves these things behind and is wonderful. King Crimson is not a 'prog' band. Prog and the 60s were merely the liberating circumstance that first gave Crimson music entry into the world. After that had happened, Crimson no longer needed prog, and moved on. A fetishistic obsession with the liberating circumstances that gave birth to you (i.e. prog nostalgia) eventually becomes a hindrance, which is why Yes/Pink Floyd/Genesis/ELP/whomever, after a certain point in their histories, become such frustratingly awkward bands. They combine great ideas and great skill, pinhole glimpses of wondefulness, with stifling structures. There is 80s and 90s music that I love by all of these bands, but after a certain point their focus becomes problematic. King Crimson are pretty unique (in the nominative field of 'rock' at least - not at all in jazz, fusion, neoclassical, electronica, and other kinds of great music that labour under inadequate labels), in that they have almost always avoided this problematicness. Crim's 60s-survivor contemporaries are now often less than the sum of their parts, whereas Crim is consistently more than the sum of its parts. Even the older repertoire played live by the Double Trio (as heard on VROOOM VROOOM) is not nostalgic in essence - it respects the eternal musical qualities of LTiA2, Red, and even 21CSM, rather than any time and place that this music might convey. And it is interesting that Marillion, a band that started off with restrictively nostalgic influences, has made progressively _better_ music between 1983 and the present. An anecdote: I was recently listening to two pieces by ELP: Toccata and Tarkus (the versions on the 'Welcome Back My Friends...' live album). And it struck me. This is mind-bogglingly good, endlessly fascinating, expertly played music. Forget the bad hair, forget the self-conscious classical erudition, forget everything except this brilliant music. Messers E, L and P, and the 'prog' context they worked in, were merely the portal for this great music to come into the world. The context is nothing. The music is everything. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:28:26 -0500 From: mike Subject: Soundscapes Download Just a quick post regarding the Soundscapes download. I am glad to see that 'ol RF is providing a free download. Not that I particularly thought there'd be a charge, but right after 9/11, the DGM guestbook was filled with people requesting RF sell them to "ease the pain". I found it funny how in that time of shock, a lot of people associated "easing the pain" with making money. I personally objected to making any money on these recordings in the DGM Guestbook under the guise of "easing the pain". Very happy (but not totally surprised) that RF saw fit to offer samplings for free to those who never got to The World Financial Center for these shows. Myself I saw at least a half dozen of them. And it just goes to show... see! You don't have to bootleg this stuff! Eventually, it comes around through one event or another (albeit this one catastrophic, but the Collectors Club is another to mention). Thank you, Frippster, for not heeding the call of the capitalists! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 23:30:23 +0100 From: George Koopman Subject: MTV/St. Louis On what can be seen nowadays on MTV (Bill and others): I actually discovered the great Ben Folds Five on an European Alternative Hour on MTV. This is no KC, but if you like well structured songs, good players and a lot of humor certainly a band to check out. The video though was nothing flashy, low-budget for sure. And I must agree that most MTV-stuff is not entertaining to me. On who have been in St. Louis (Steven): funny to see how some artists pick a certain town to come back to. For instance, in my hometown (Groningen, in the north of the Netherlands) I saw RF on 5 occasions during a timespan of only ten years (w/ KC, w/ Sylvian, w/ Toyah and w/ a bunch of beam-eyed rascals on Ovations). Perhaps we (in Groningen) gave the right noises and glances during the concerts for RF to return so often. On long posts: I don't mind reading the long posts ("there's a little bit of writer in every poster"), but could we please stay close to KC and RF? I don't really care if David Gilmour builds his own house or Phil Collins should stick to his sticks... Greetings, George "Was ist loose Mein Hair, he bald" - Neil Innes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:02:29 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: I like long post's.....and, I know i'm a bit out of step here, but have'nt had a hi-end dvd player for more than a year now(& I simply refuse to watch these great music & movie dvd's on anything but a big screen tv & stereo set-up-I don't think you can get the "experience" watching them on your pc unless my pc should be hooked up thru the home theatre setup?)and i'm still catching up on affording the necessary dvd's. Anyhow, I just finished watching the "Tokyo Tapes" dvd & it brings up a few things i'd like to talk about: 1)While this dvd was damn good, it can't even come close to measuring up to the Niacin dvd, "Blood Sweat & Beer's" recorded a few yrs back at Tokyo's "Bluenote Club". I know, I SHOULD'NT & usually DON'T compare 1 dvd to another, but the Niacin(Dennis Chambers-drums-Billy Sheehan-bass{both incredible}& John Novello-Hammond B-3/keys)dvd is unlike ANY other dvd i've experienced, & it is just that, an EXPERIENCE. Besides the virtuoso playing ability of the 3 you feel like you're part of the small audience, Incredible dvd. You can find it at www.audiophileimports.com. 2)I know this has been covered over & over & KNOW of all the for/against opinion's on the subject but after watching how impressive a qualified quintet(the more the better)can perform older tunes, from especially King Crimson & Genesis, why would'nt it be a profitable, enjoyable(for the bandmates)and superb opportunity(for us fans of the older material)for Fripp & fellow ex-Crimson mates to have fun & make money, as well as making us lifelong Crimfans happy to possibly make 2 tours, 1 for the 1st 3 or maybe 4 albums & yet another to cover the LTIA era KC up to the say 81 stuff. I stop at 2 tour's only because, well, the other stuff is more recent in our memories, & is even somewhat documented on video!(I know i'm leaving out those who were'nt yet born for the 81 stuff, but, I guess you have to draw the line somewhere)I know i'll receive ALOT of flak on this but after watching a group w/2 original KC members(surrounded by extremely gifted musicians)do such a fine job on the 2(somewhat abridged)versions of KC songs, the touring of as many original KC members from the "old" days would make those & other KC songs sound magnificent, as only the older "player's could? Again, Fripp what is wrong w/re-visiting glorious music? Music that could be played by no-one but the guys who were there!! You can always move forward, even if you briefly revisit the past, a band needs to "always" move forward to continue to stay fresh attract new audiences, but I have yet to find a "great" band that was "hampered" by reliving music that will live forever as it was so brilliantly conceived & performed by the original guys in the 1st place??!! 3)Regarding point #2, why is it that Japan seems to be able to do so many great things that the U.S or other countries can't or are'nt willing to? I'm in no way Japan bashing here as I love Japan(have been there once & my best friend lives there along w/other friends), quite the contrary, it seems as if, "you want to see a concert you can see nowhere else? go to Japan!" or "if you want/need a cd or dvd you cannot find anywhere else, you can get it in Japan". This goes back to the early 70's where I could only find vinyl of my favorite bands if it were an import from Japan. We here in America have(& boy is this the WRONG time to be saying this!)let so many opportunities fall thru the cracks or allowed ideas to be cultivated in a country we once tried to destroy. They even have tv ideas/programs that far surpass us in many ways. We need to understand "there is" a strong market for so many of the things Japan does. 4)Also regarding point #2, it would'nt be the same but I guess I could "settle" for bands with the virtuosity to perform older KC material like there are bands here in (the U.S.)that have members of previous Frank Zappa bands that cover FZ's material & do it so well; Ike Willis(who was w/FZ for a # of yrs)has "Project Object" and the amazing Mike Keneally either with Ike or without does an amazing job on Zappa tunes! I always pay & always will pay to see either of these bands, but it's not the same(in this case impossible)w/o FZ just as the Crimson King gigs I suggest would'nt be w/o Robert. "Music performed by musicians at it's higest level, seperates the men from the noise" FZ another long post, thanks, Steven Munari ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 11:40:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "N.J.WHITTAKER" Subject: Ade Belew on 'Strange Little Girls' Ade Belew puts in a very nice turn on most of the tracks of Tori Amos' new LP 'Strange Little Girls' for people interested in his work outside KC. It's a very interesting album of cover versions by artists such as Tom Waits, Lou Reed, Neil Young, 10cc etc. with some searing Belew guitar. Talking of such things has anyone heard Saxon's cover version of 'In The Court . . . ' on their new LP? Heard it's supposed to be quite pitiful but you never know . . . Nick Whittaker np: Mahavishnu Orchestra, 'Inner Mounting Flame' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:08:57 -0500 From: Serge Bellerose Subject: G,G anf F Hello I need help regarding shops/stores where I can order/find info regarding GGF new LP (LP only) release Metaphormosis...I just read about in MOJO. Links anyone? Merci. Serge. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:54:01 -0500 From: "baxlap" Subject: Fw: SCI/VROOOM VROOOM I received my tickets for one of the upcoming shows on the KC/JPJ DC tour from SCI yesterday. On its website, SCI claims that it provides tickets at "reduced service charges." The "service" charge for my tickets was only $5 per ticket. However, SCI compensates with an excessive shipping charge ($7.50 for priority mail). The total of $17.50 in shipping and service charges for a pair of concert tickets is essentially the same as what Ticketmaster or Protix charge and thus renders SCI's claim disingenuous. I received my copy of VROOOM VROOOM the other night. Eight of the 12 titles from the Mexico City 8/96 disc appeared on CIRKUS: A YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON LIVE, while the entirety of the Broadway 11/95 disc has been previously released on ON BROADWAY and elsewhere. Are the Mexico City performances on VROOOM VROOOM the same ones that were previously released on CIRKUS? If so, there are only four previous unreleased tracks out of the 26 that appear on VROOOM VROOOM. Hmmm... There has already been a studio EP (VROOOM), a studio CD (THRAK), three 2CD live sets (B'BOOM, ON BROADWAY and VROOOM VROOOM), all of which cover a large dose of overlapping material, plus an improv disc (THRAK ATTAK) by the 1994-97 double trio. I hear that KCCC is contemplating either an entire Mexico City 8/96 show or one from this past summer or one from this past summer's tour. Fond as I am of the 1994-97 double trio, I submit that its output has already been flogged to death. May the next KCCC choice please be for a show from this past summer. Andrew Baxley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:48:03 -0500 From: "Michael Broadman" Subject: Collector's Club item on ebay Hey all, I'm auctioning off the double CD 1995 live from Broadway Collector's Club #5 & 6 discs on ebay. They're in excellent condition. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1484539114 Thanks to all who bid and good luck. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 00:51:07 -0600 From: "Tracy Family" Subject: ear candy In reading the last few ET's I find myself smirking and sometimes laughing out loud. We folks sure do take our music seriously! I sometimes envision the people on the list listening to a twelve-tone work by Schoenberg for fun rather than as an academic excercise. We tend to look for music with complicated polyrythmic, polyphonic aspects to it, but I have to wonder if I'm alone in enjoying a more basic main-stream kind of music from time to time. What I call my ear candy. Generally it is music I listened to growing up. I listened to a lot of art rock/progressive rock as a teenager but I also had AC/DC and VanHalen in my record collection. I thought it would be neat to see what some other ETers would list as their ear candy or guilty pleasures. To start it off I'll list a few of mine. 1. Disipline -hey ya got to start with with the cream of the crop! 2. Moving Pictures by Rush 3. Rumors by Fleetwood Mac -I know I'm gonna get killed for that one but its got well crafted songs and the band is at its tightest. 4. Get the Knack-Any guy who was in his early teens when this came out knows what I mean, dirty lyrics and a driving beat. 5. Another one I'm gonna get smeared on but I enjoyed it quite a bit when it was new, though I traded it for an lp that featured Fripp and many others whos title escapes me(lost that one in a flood). The Go Go's Beauty and the Beat. 6. Ambrosia-Road Island. It has the Ralph Steadman cover. A concept album that showed these guys could do more than sing sweet harmonies. 7. Finally, though there are many others I could list, is Cliff Richard's We Don't Talk Anymore. Title cut asside, it is a pretty good lp, esp like Carrie. I savor the times I have to sit and actively listen to the music of KC, it brings a satisfaction I can't get from anywhere else. But sometimes I look forward to visiting other old friends and I enjoy their simpler straight forward 3 min. of fun. Happy Listening-Curt Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:14:11 From: "Andrew Thiermann" Subject: Availbility of Nuovo Metal to the Europeans... Sorry if this isn't the correct place to post this but I didn't really know where else to...I have been reading the reviews of shows etc and a few other places that says that Nuovo Metal is available at the shows. Does this mean that it is ONLY available at shows or can we in Europe and the rest of the world get a copy some other way, I've checked DGM but no info is there. This isn't meant in an agressive way, I (and I'm sure others) am very keen to get a copy of it as soon as I can...but how can we or who should I/we contact. Thanks so much to anyone who can shed some light on this. Later. Andrew andrew77fc at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:24:49 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Les Claypool Does Crimson Being a relatively new member (less then 10 issues deep) of Elephant Talk I am not sure whether or not this has been discused at all on the web pages or on this newsletter. Has anyone heard the version of Thela Hun Ginjeet that Les Claypool and the Fearless Flying Frog Brigade does? Personally I am a HUGE Claypool fan, and I love everything he has done from Primus through the Frog Brigade. To my dismay I did see some Primus bashing from one of the members here, I dont know if that opinion is shared or not. I thought it was great that he covered the song in the first place, I would hope that interested fans would search of King Crimson music. Anyway I think their cover of this classic Crimson song is great. I actually think that Les sounds a lot like Belew when he sings this song. Anyone have opinions about it? perhaps opinions i missed from when the Frog Brigade CD came out? Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:41:26 -0000 From: "Glyn Morton" Subject: Epitaph Hi there everyone being quite new to KC: I need a little bit of help in understanding the Epitaph discs. I`ve just looked at the DGM mail order site, and a 4 cd box set seems to be unavailable now. However there is a 2 cd jewel box edition, and it also mentions card sleeve versions of discs 3 and 4 for the box set! Basically I want to get the 4cd box set, but that looks not to be on! Are there plans for it to be re-released in any way, does anyone know? Or should I go for the 2 individual iems listed above, though the card sleeve versions won`t sit in the jewel case version of Epitaph 1 and 2...........Dilemma! Anyone going to the gigs, enjoy! Glyn ggm at gofree dot indigo dot ie mortyg2000 at yahoo dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:56:58 -0500 From: Geordie Robertson Subject: Nothing to do with KC Hi folks. As the subject line states this post has nothing to do with KC, but perhaps the gods will let this one slip by. I have heard tell of a new "prog" band called "Oysterhead" with Les Claypool, Stuart Copeland(!) and some guy from Phish. Are they any good? Is it worth buying the CD? I am posting this here because I trust and respect the opinions of Crimso fans. You should probably e-mail me privately. Thanx. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #889 ********************************