Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #888 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 888 Tuesday, 13 November 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: King Crimson at the Chicago Theater, November 24th at 7:30pm GIG BIZ: KC/JPJ-NYC Tix For Sale.... GIG BIZ: San Francisco Nov14, 2001 GIG BIZ: KC/JPJ-NYC Tix For Sale.... Prog? I always thought it SUCKED More MTV and music industy thoughts VROOOM VROOOM question Past and present evolution through failure Stigmatta Mondatta No Definition, No Milieu, No Kidding! What is prog/KC and Alvin Lee Melodies are what is missing Level Five U.S. Tour Reviews Fripp as architect recent YES abuse...an alternative complexity CMA & levin ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:56:47 -0600 From: "Campbell, David" Subject: GIG BIZ: King Crimson at the Chicago Theater, November 24th at 7:30pm I purchased 2 tickets for King Crimson at the Chicago Theater, November 24th at 7:30pm. Unfortunately I cannot attend the show. Tickets are located sec.4R row HH seats 410 & 412. This is 8th row center. I purchased these tickets via the Crimson site. I am selling these at cost which is $49.50 per ticket plus a $5.00 handling charge, for a total of $104. Anyone who is interested can contact me off line at dcampbell at hellerfin dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:27:03 EST From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: KC/JPJ-NYC Tix For Sale.... I've upgraded once more and have a pair of seats for sale to the 12/13/01 show here in NYC...Orchestra...Close and center...Please email me for details...Local only...I am in Nassau County/LI/NY...I look forward to hearing from you...... Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:21:01 -0800 From: "John Selby" Subject: GIG BIZ: San Francisco Nov14, 2001 I have two tickets for the above show that I cannot use. The costs of the tickets are $98.10 inclusive of all the charges from ticket master, etc. Row CC, Seats 9-11 Email to John at tam6251 at home dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:31:38 EST From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: KC/JPJ-NYC Tix For Sale.... I've upgraded once more and have a pair of seats for sale to the 12/13/01 show here in NYC...Orchestra...Close and center...Please email me for details...Local only...I am in Nassau County/LI/NY...I look forward to hearing from you...... Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:02:03 -0500 From: "G. Emory Anderson" Subject: Prog? I always thought it SUCKED OK, OK, despite the subject line I didn't exactly think prog SUCKED per se, but the lyrical imagery and, to some extent, the quasi-classical musicality always seemed irrlevant to my world, growing up in 1970s NYC. (Indeed, I still don't own a copy of Lizard, ITWOP, and the other fantasy-covered crimson records.) I was never into Genesis that much, or Yes, or gentle giant or any of that other crap. That's why i pretty much ignored King Crimson and "The Court of the Crimson King", until one day... I kept hearing about this Red album by King crimson, that around 1980 wasn't available in the US except by import. But I finally got it at a little 2nd floor record shop on 8th street, caddy-corner from Bleeker Blob's. And man that kicked my ass. No, it wasn't punk, but it had balls and intelligence and decent playing (which I didn't mind at all, despite the local aversion to more than 3 chords). I kept listening to Crimson from then on (which turned out good, because they reformed a couple of years later), but for me all of the quasi-new wave, prog, minimalism and other stuff was just a set of wrappers for this harder, more powerful, intelligent, and visceral musical message. To this day I don't actually like ITCotCK a LOT, but I can hear past the Prog and into the stuff I love crimson for. I'm actually happy that Tool fans have been exposed to Crimson, because I think that kind of audience best brings out what this band was really about. Oh, and in case anyone cares, I feel that the Double Trio at its best was the ultimate representation of that sound. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:51:05 -0500 From: "Michael V. Campiglio" Subject: More MTV and music industy thoughts I mentioned earlier how MTV changed everything, but here are some more thoughts on the subject: It propelled many bands into superstardom, some that were around for a while; Dire Straits, Peter Gabriel, The Police, U2, ZZ Top, to name a few. To make matters worse, the music industry milked it for all it was worth; sinking a ton of dough to break in artists, and concerts sold out at record paces, also spawning corporate endorsements for tours. The music industry wasn't taking too many chances during this period; I'm sure someone will come up with examples, but in general, they wanted a return on their investment. I believe it was at that point where you were either part of the "pop culture" of that era, or you were on the outside looking in. I've felt this cycle comes around every 5 to 8 years; people in general can only stand to have so much shit shoved down their throats before they gag! And through it all, the progressive scene co-existed somewhat happy, with a decent cult following, as it does today. Sure King Crimson could have benefited through video's, but that success would have come with a price. In the end, things worked itself out; King Crimson and others like them, have maintained their artistic integrity and there are a lot of bands in the "where are they now?" category. Regards, Mike Campiglio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:03:24 -0600 From: "Steve Marshall" Subject: VROOOM VROOOM question Hi Everyone, I just got VROOOM VROOOM in the mail yesterday. Great compilation, but I was wondering what's missing from the Mexico City shows. Also, why did they include B'Boom & THRAK twice? To me, it would've made more sense to arrange the tracks into a logical running order and present it as 'a single show' (even tho it obviously isn't. Great performances throughout.. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:03:09 -0600 From: toddlcsw at juno dot com Subject: Past and present Does anyone else find it worth noting that the topics of ET posters more often than not refer to other music, other bands, and so forth (mostly from the past), rather than KC? I find this notable given the vigor of the present lineup, and the enormous amount of material Fripp/KC have released in the past year. BTW, I like shorter posts. Todd in Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:50:49 -0500 From: "Michael Destefano" Subject: evolution through failure One of the things that seperates early Crimson from alot of the other prog acts of the 70's was the difference between studio recordings and live performances. The first four albums were highly crafted studio creations, with many different people contributing different talents. Live versions of these songs range from ok to pathetic(sorry to offend anybody, but early incarnations didn't always cut the mustard when it came to live playing). Genesis was another band that sometimes failed to live up to their studio prowess. Many times the vocals were inconsistant and the arrangements empty (Mr Hackett being the prime culprit). In fact more often than not, bands that craft albums don't give enough thought to playing them live. On the other hand, bands such as Yes, Renaissance, and Gentle Giant fared better in live situations because the individuals writing the parts played them with an exuberence beyond the studio perfect takes: they seemed to play as a unit , instead of trying to over power the audience. I believe w/ LTIA Fripp decided to approach Crimsons music with the live show in mind, he realized that recreating the studio gems was not possible with the personnel he had. Once the musical format became improvisational it allowed the personality of the individual players to shine above the material. Not every band is meant to recreate the music they record, those who can,do- those who can't, hopefully modify the live show to their advantage. Except for a couple of examples, the Wetton -Bruford era Crimson material was created to play live, this was the real genius of Mr Fripp: he saw the need to evolve. Evolution is the end result of growth, without it you end up with old men sleepwalking through stagnant rehashes. eg: 1980's prog. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:59:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: Stigmatta Mondatta They say there's a place on the internet where a man can rant over rock'n'roll frills. He may need no more than two brain cells if he overkills. Now its not a meaningless question to ask if there's been a prog rock decline, but what matters most is the feeling you get when you read between the lines. When it seems like a scheme, they've got you stigmatized! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:32:50 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: No Definition, No Milieu, No Kidding! To answer a couple of good questions: Josh Chasin said: "Prog: you never actually defined the term...you never actually told us what it IS. I mean, what is Prog? Is it like obscenity, in that we know it when we see it? Please, do tell. Surely you've thought through the question of definition. Yes, indeed, as have most critics worth their salt (i.e., not very many) and the plain truth is that it cant be done. Its a stupid term...but with an explanatory history. At the height of psychedelic explorations, KC and others came on the scene. With their infusion of classical music and their full culmination of what psych was reaching for, a new term was needed. Art rock came up, but that was dumb: all rock is art (well, okay, punk excepted). Lester Bangs shot the best arrow: mellotronic death of the universe music. Cool, right? Well, try selling product behind it...hence, no go. Someone coined progressive rock (does anyone know who?) and it stuck. God knows why. Its a meaningless term: all rock that varies from its trad base is progressive - hence, ZZ Top taking off from Bo Diddley is a prog band purely by semantic definition. Progression magazine and others ceaselessly try to answer the question What is prog? Its a fools errand and mainly just irritating. Its never been done, itll never be done...although Progressions John Covach has tentatively and meekly hazarded that he might try. I think he stands a good chance of finally decoding it, if anyone can, though I suspect its impossible. Let me turn the question on you and have you understand the difficulty of it: YOU define it for us! Good luck, Contact me three lifetimes from now when you get out of the asylum. It is INDEED a we-know-it-when-we-hear-it situation, like it or not. Ill be ecstatic to have you prove me wrong. >On your slagging of Belew outside of Crimson--certainly the Bears and his >solo work may well be a matter of taste. But where he did his best >non-Crimson work, I would suggest, was on other people's records (and >tours), not his own. The Talking Heads' "Remain in Light" comes immediately >to mind. Absolutely...and I didnt mention that stuff because Im not so sure Byrne wasnt the truest motive force behind it, as Fripp has been in KC. Bears & solo stuff I can safely attribute to Belew...and I see nothing, other than Lone Rhino, that comes even vaguely close to his Talikng Heads collabs. Then Prog Frog opined: >Now, really, I fail to see the relationship between the Sex Pistols / the >Ramones / the Dead Boys and Marillion / IQ / Pallas. Thats because no one made the comparison, merely the contrast (and Marillion is leagues above IQ and Pallas, so the grouping is inappropos). >What I also utterly fail to understand is why "classic prog" sounds great >and "neoprog" is garbage. I pointed that out: no discipline in neo. >Mahler's symphonic music is more complex than that of Mozart... You cant be serious with that remark. >If that's the point, well, then progressive rock is lagging way behind >jazz, fusion, and classical music Always has, always will, in toto. A number of problems, Marcelo: neoprog was a term laid on decent amateurs during a hiatus, whom, we may notice, mostly folded up their tents and went home (thank God!) when the masters came back on the scene. Unfortunately, a lot of the good up-and-comers, like Visible Wind, just faded or couldnt get PR and left the field to blatant inferiors during that time. A few, like Aragon, still struggle to get a share of rightful acclaim. However, if you consider the problem of how poorly only half-wrought imitation flatters the source (say, as in Bi Kyo Ran versus KC), then you can start to drop the emotionalism and understand things on an intellectual/aesthetic level. It would serve prog fandom best to quit quailing the moment its pet fave is criticised and, instead, open up its horizons a smidgeon, so as to see the qualitative differences for themselves - after all, in art, its ALL quality, isnt it? And thats precisely why neoprog gasps and splutters before it goes under. Rightfully. -Mark S. Tucker- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 10:52:13 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: What is prog/KC and Alvin Lee Hi all, Defining terms for prog is not easy. I think if we keep it simple and have it as a description of a type of rock music. That is, it is rock that pushes the musical boundaries away from contemporary predetermined forms. It adopts , adapts, it is musical, it is pure and only relies on music. Not fashion or drugs, though some might disagree on the last? So if psychedelia was the musical soup that from which prog emerged then the adaption of musical forms within all the classical areas and the directions into jazz, avante garde and song structure found it's audience via thge rock medium. Unless it is just sophisticated rock for people yet to grow up. Like me. Complexity is comparative vis a vis the Mahler vs Mozart, Beethoven vs Bach comparison. Personally I would prefer the comparison of Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven. Ludwig progressed (Romantic)Classical forms like nobody else had. Wolfie borrowed from Haydn. A lot. Then he did his last 3 Symphonies which really pushed him into the prog/ classical foreground, as if Elvira Madigan wasn't enough. It was only 200 years ago to the year etc. Wolgang as 90s flash git...sorry being facetious... Anyway when it comes to being the first prog act, pushing boundaries etc, Floyd! Piper as Prog? Usually PF are rated/ slagged from '68 onwards with Saucerful Of Secrets. (Personally I love everything up to the Wall, compilations aside. Even CD2, (S3 and 4) of Ummgumma. This has some great ideas on it and is not complete, PF should have played it as a suite and then it would have become something better, as it is let's just try thinking past what the critics endlessly iterate and Elevate above the norm. Thanks RUSH!. Moodies with Days Of Future in 12/67? Definitely. What about the Nice as the first prog band as seems to be generally accepted? Classical, rock, jazz, psychedelia, songs, playing, grandiosity etc etc. All before KC and everyone else. In fact the thought of Cream and The Nice ( as a combination)pretty much defines and progresses rock for the 70s. Guitar solo indulgence. Just thinking what ELP would have been like with Howe or Hackett making HELP rather than Hendrix which I don't think would have worked. It's not too late for Howe and Hackett I mean. (Although the Hendrix output over the past 31 years might suggest otherwise.) I don't mean split the always wonderful Yes up, I mean get these guys in a studio and on stage. Howe and Emerson. What a thought. Hackett and Emerson. Another one (thougt that is.... Cream developed blues though that was nothing compared to what Zeppelin did and they began in 68. Zep changed, progressed, used orchestras, mellotrons. JPJ was their prog man was he not? Still is come to think of it. Best heavy rock album of 20 years was and is ZOOMA. IMHO. KC were among the first but were not the first. Possibly the best in creating and defining (progressing) a form of music rock. KC has always been a rock group. ITCOTCK and ITWOP are always referred to as the first and then a remake. Que? how is this? at best one might think this should have been a double LP. One might as well say that the 80s KC is the same LP repeated twic. i don't think so. They have a starting point and then take it from there to where ever RF (oops... I mean what ever KC thinks is the place to stop...) Prog is not, no way, never pop. Pop to me means disposable kiddie music(?). Prog is the OPPOSITE of pop. (Yes I am shouting that bit- sorry but...this is something I do feel very strongly about.) Lowest common denominator manipulative image driven rubbish that people are expected to measure their lives by, IMHO that is fightening and fascist. Freewill is not involved. Whereas with progressive music from any era, freewill is the element, along with talent sufficient to express that creates and defines the form and allows that audience to find it as we will. I do not mean I hate accessable melodies just the stupid application that is pandering and patronising. Yes have melodies in abundance. So does Zappa and Genesis and everybody. They just do not limit themselves. Or let themselves be limited. Ok sometimes they do hence the 80s Genensis resentment. Now the lowest common denominator are let in. Curses, general public ruining everything just because they don't have the brains, wit etc to appreciate... Now I sound elitist, I am that but not fascist, I have no wish to impose (anything) music on others (though my neighbours have varying opinions there....) Is Roy Harper 'prog rock'? Pleased to see Mel Collins and Boz and Ian Wallace credited on one of my favourite Alvin Lee albums, Pump Iron. They were not credited on my old US pressing from, oh a long time ago... Was he then progressive? Is having variety, quality playing and some jazz funk in the rock enough? Having 3/5 of a KC line up as your backing band? This is what I mean when I say Progressive rock progresses. Alvin Lee is obviously a blues rock guitar man (who can sing pretty well if not great, for a 6 stringer...Howe and Hackett on vox, no please not that, guitars yes!!! vox no.)It might not be a good idea to have Alvin Lee in Yes but anyone who can detune a guitar and retune it, live in concert and do so in an improvised musically listenable form must have something going for him. long live Long posts, music, women and beer. Bring KC/ JPJ to London PPPPPLLLLEEEEASSSSEEE. more shouting. not sorry. Thanks for reading if you've got this far and again if you haven't. ciao Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:16:31 -0000 From: Clive Backham Subject: Melodies are what is missing In ET #887, "Prog Frog" pondered: "What I also utterly fail to understand is why "classic prog" sounds great and "neoprog" is garbage." I concur with your assessment. Bands like IQ, Pendragon, et al seem to have all the necessary chops, but their music generally bores the pants off me. But in this desert, there are brief moments of magic on some neo-prog works. (I've just listened to Chronometree by Glasshammer, and while it is certainly derivative, there are some sublime moments on it). If you stop to analyse what's different about those sublime moments, it seems to boil down to one thing: good tunes. There are simply not enough of them about these days. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:20:07 -0400 From: "Pablo Velasco L." Subject: Level Five U.S. Tour Reviews Pat Mastelotto's diary (Monday 5th. November, 2001): "...and we are trying some new stage plot ideas. . . to go with our new tunes, big PA, new gear, modest lights, new crew." Aaaaagh!!! whishIcouldbetheretoseeit. OK, this is to remind those lucky to be there that there are some of us waiting for your lengthy, clever, transparent reviews. Make us feel the show. Please. Cheers, Pablo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 15:21:47 +0000 From: Mr Tea Subject: Fripp as architect This from Jason R Thornton in ET 887 > If the post-Waters Pink Floyd were architects, they'd be constructing > generic Styrofoam models of buildings that vaguely resemble the grander > buildings designed by more creative architects that have long since left > the firm. And they'd probably be getting paid a shitload to do it. Well said, Jason. Although, on the evidence of Mr Waters' post-Floyd offerings (a sad collection of misshapen follies with all the architectural distinctiveness of a portaloo), the band wouldn't have had much new to offer even if he had stayed on to collect his gold watch. Jason's words describe almost exactly what I felt when I first heard 'The Division Bell', but sadly, I feel much the same about 'TKOL' too - it's as if 30 years of KC had been put through the shredder, with an album's worth of strips pulled out of the bin at random and pasted together. Apologists for the Floyd's later output have the luxury of being able to say 'it's not really the Floyd without Roger Waters', just as Floyd fundametalists could say the same about Syd Barrett - but there's only one person you can say 'it's not really King Crimson without...', and he is still manifestly at the helm. 'Thrak' promised the beginning of a new phase in KC's studio output, but TKOL failed emphatically to keep up the momentum. I'm not disheartened by this, though. A similar thing happened in the 80s when 'Discipline' forged an exciting new Crimsonality - only to be followed by the flaccid, self-absorbed mess that was 'Beat' (my least listened-to Fripp product) - before the whole thing came magnificently together with 3 of a Perfect Pair. Cheers Mr Tea -- Brew of the day: Assam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:27:33 -0500 From: Brian Rupert Subject: recent YES abuse...an alternative Hello Crimheads, this is my first post to this wonderful newsletter. I find it sad that so many of the prog greats aren't producing the music that made me love the genre in the first place. Since people are mainly discussing the few more popular prog bands in this thread, I'll limit my discussion to those. I think that one of the first prog albums I ever heard was Close to the Edge, unless you consider Rush to be prog (and some of you don't), in which case it would have been Caress of Steel. I loved CTTE and sought out every LP by Yes that I could find. But for many years now I have had mixed feelings about Yes, ELP and Rush in particular, and have had to embrace newcomers such as After Crying, Material and Ozric Tentacles to fill the void that the updating of their sounds had created. I suppose it is natural for any musician to want to experiment with new sounds, or progress, that is why we call it prog! For a band like Rush, standing still was the death knell and progressing in music meant experimentation and taking risks. I'm not sure exactly why it led them into the musical territory that they produced after, say, Grace Under Pressure, or in Yes' case, 90125, but it certainly was an about-face for both bands IMHO. Although I still like much of the music created by Yes during the 80s and on (especially Drama) I don't get an urge to play those discs as I would with pre-80s Yes stuff. With the addition of Trevor Rabin, I found that the arrangements of the Yes music had changed profoundly in a "feeding the pop machine" sense, even the complex bass that Chris Squire had played in the past seemed to be abandoned for a more compact, dumbed-down sound. Something crucial had been lost. In the case of Rush, try as I might, I just couldn't make myself like anything after GUP. The lyrics suddenly took a turn for the mundane and even annoying, and the music turned to hooks and instant gratification. Can anyone tell me WTF happened to them? For the case of King Crimson however, there didn't seem to be any real change in focus from what I knew to be good King Crimson. Although I never favoured Beat or Three of a Perfect Pair, KC didn't seem to fall into a black hole. Perhaps someone like Robert Fripp could answer the question best as to what it was that kept his band so alive and challenging where other bands seem to fall into pop mediocrity. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:52:52 +0000 From: "Rainbow Sky" Subject: complexity In response to Marcelo's post... >and in the first place complexity doesn't alway equal better quality. I would absolutely agree with this. Musicians who wish to move music forward, i.e. be responsible for its progression, may look to technical virtuosity/complexity as a path, but, IMO, this is short-sighted. The technical construction and execution of a piece is necessary only so that the music, which is primary, may be heard. I have noticed humans often do things which are unnecessary. >and Bach (my personal favorite) >practically wipes the floor with anyone pre-twentieth century as far as >complexity is concerned. I feel Bach is a great influence on "progressive" music, KC's included. Obviously (I hope it's obvious!), this is not to the exclusion of other influences, but it does help fill out the idea that prog is the baby of rock and classical music. This is how prog was presented to me originally. This is not why I listen. >All these "requirements" of avant-gardism, >complexity, etc. are just a mystery to me. This makes me wonder how much mysticism plays a role in the composition of what people call progressive rock - forgive me if this may seem to be a non sequitir. Perhaps "dancing about architecture" is what really interested the Floyd. The "obscurity = profundity" formula is not healthy. I enjoy Adrian's solo/non-KC work, too. Most of my favorite creators don't fit in the categories they have created, but their lesser imitators do. When Cubism had become a defined category, Picasso was living outside of its boundaries. Cheers, Mike Mann Opposite of People (we're a band) http://www.oppositeofpeople.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:18:16 From: "Spear man" Subject: CMA & levin Whaaaaaat? Was that Tony Levin playing bass backing up Phil Vassar on tonight's Country Music Awards? Sure looked like him, stage right. He sure gets around :) --spearman ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #888 ********************************