Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #887 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 887 Tuesday, 6 November 2001 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: Chicago, November 24, 2001 GIG BIZ: 2 Tickets For Denver Paramount Show Levin's Y2K tour Subject: Re: New York bands Silly string not acceptable P2 Northampton encore Bewitched-Fripp & Summers Here Come The Warm Jets Pink Floyd and Architecture KC Influenced and ET Facilitated Band Gig Notice Re: Pink Floyd as architects prog-crim-JPJ-Tool architects and music Overly long posts Clarification Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES Shine On You Crazy Architect Yeah, but what IS it? Re: Corporate Prog Decline future mind ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:27:36 -0800 From: "Brett Walrod" Subject: GIG BIZ: Chicago, November 24, 2001 I have two tickets for the above show which I can not use. The cost of the tickets are $91.65 inclusive of all the charges from ticket master, etc. Row N, Seats 402-404 Sorry I will miss the show but would like to unlode the tickets if possible. Thank you! bwalrod at colliersbk dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:43:49 -0700 From: "White, George" Subject: GIG BIZ: 2 Tickets For Denver Paramount Show Unfortunately, a family commitment will keep my wife and me from going to the Nov. 19 Denver show (unless my daughter's sixth-grade play can replace JPJ as the opening act). I have two seats (purchased the minute tix went on sale) in the Center Orchestra, Row G; about as perfect a spot as you could want. Looking to recoup face value and Tickmaster charges (about $115 total). I live in the Southwest Denver area. Anyone interested? E-mail to George at gwhite at remax dot net. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:10:18 -0500 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: Levin's Y2K tour Saw last year the show of Tony Levin's Waters of Eden tour in Montreal last year (29-10). It was great. Am now seeing it again!!!! Well, almost: go to http://www.primeticket.net/shows/tonylevin/ to see the complete 2 hour show that he gave in Toronto the day before (28-10). Hear him sing ET. Hear Jerry Marotta sing Sleepless and (only one person in all of Kansas knows this) Back in New York City (some of us need that now) and I Go Swimming. Larry Fast is perfect. Jesse Gress rocks! Hear them play some Hendirx and even some Led Zep (Black Dog: TL plays Plant's vocal part). TL loves to play for people: this is not a job for him. Can everyone be so lucky? Funny thing: I found this as a link on TL's Japanese web site. Can't find it on his home base web site. One more thing: Tony, plllleeeaaaaassssseeee make a double cd of this (or another show of this tour, but with those 3 compadres; of course, I roote for the Montreal show). These live versions are so much better than there original Narada versions (sorry Tony, I like rock - and even jazz - when it has at least a little punch to it), thanks in part to JG. An "Official Bootleg" with the least amount of editing would be ideal. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:45:23 -0500 From: "Martin Miron" Subject: Subject: Re: New York bands Michael Liermann wrote: > It's a nitpick, but...you should know that The Stooges and the MC5 were > based in Detroit, which was nowhere near NYC last time I checked. And > Wayne > County was still Wayne back in those days; he only became Jayne in the > late > 80s IIRC. You forgot to mention that Detriot is located in Wayne County, Michigan. Marty (Motor City) Miron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:12:38 -0800 From: "Scott W McKillop" Subject: Silly string not acceptable It is Not acceptable to encourage assault of person (or privacy) of any King Crimson. If you want to foist silly string, start with your president, representatives, parents, and then your employer. Then find both of your brain cells. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:44:57 +0100 From: Laurent Masse Subject: P2 Northampton encore > On a different issue, Michael Hackett writes: > > > I will first say that I think the Northampton P2 CD sounds great and I > > enjoyed the performance, but why in the world tease us by mentioning the > > "exceptionally cool" Schizoid Man encore, and then not include it For all those missing Northampton's Schizoid Man, listen to track 10 on Live Groove (well, the first 2 minutes...) and there you have it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:43:34 -0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Bewitched-Fripp & Summers Do you know if the above CD still available form anywhere? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:54:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Nicholas Whittaker Subject: Here Come The Warm Jets KC related Q: My friend & I were intrigued as to the identity of the mysterious 'Sweetfeed' character creditted with backing vocals on 1 track of Eno's excellent 'Here Come The Warm Jets' LP which, I believe features Fripp & Wetton. Cheers, Nick Whittaker np: ORB, 'Orb Live '93' Nicholas Whittaker njw100 at soton dot ac dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:39:16 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Pink Floyd and Architecture I just wanted to mention briefly a bit of Floyd info in case some people thought the original poster was making some type of cut towards architecture being the dumping ground for failed rock stars. The original poster must have read some info about Floyd that he was trying to quote. Indeed, both Nick Mason and Roger Waters were in fact actually IN architecture school when Pink Floyd took off. The quote from Mason was something like, "Well, I figured I'd give the band a try. After all if it doesn't go well I can always fall back on architecture." So, the architecture/Floyd connection is actually real, but I'm sure it wasn't intended as an attack on architecture :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 12:16:41 -0800 From: Paul Strong Subject: KC Influenced and ET Facilitated Band Gig Notice Nov 10th Fractal at The Quarternote - Sunnyvale, CA Almost a year ago in ET #776 Adrian sent out a request on Paul's behalf: "Subject: Drummer looking for KC - like band in SF Bay area". This resulted in the formation of Fractal about a month later :o) After much practising and composition, we played our first gig in August 2001, which was significant (at least for us ;o) as the first known public performance of FraKCtured by a band other than King Crimson. A full commentary on this is available at the FraKCtured Zone http://www.frakctured.ukf.net along with an interview with our guitarist Nic Roozeboom. We also performed Breathless, from Robert Fripp's "Exposure" solo release, a piece rarely, if ever, performed live by anyone. These were part of an an eclectic mix of original material and some unusual covers. For those who are interested, please mark your calendars for Saturday Nov 10th, when we will be playing at the Quarternote in Sunnyvale (Central Expwy/Lawrence Expwy intersection). Visit http://www.frakctal.com (sic :o) for access to our web site and to our pages at MP3.com. We are also listed on the King Crimson and Math Rock channels We hope to see some fellow ET-ers there. Cheers Adrian, Paul, Nic and Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:17:18 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Pink Floyd as architects >David Vella wroted: >Well, if the Pink Floyd of 'Piper At the gates of Dawn' were architects, >the buildings they would have designed would surely be just like those >depicted in a Dr. Seuss book. Strange, bizarre, but childlike and >innocent. If the Pink Floyd of 'Atom Heart Mother', 'Meddle' or >'Ummagumma' had been architects, their buildings would be even more strange >and bizarre, otherworldly even, and defying gravity and other laws of >reality, but not at all childlike, except perhaps a gargoyle or two to >refer to past influences. More like the impossible buildings of >M.C. Escher than Dr. Seuss. If the Pink Floyd of 'Dark Side of the Moon' >or 'Wish You Were Here' were architects their buildings would be grand, >sweeping statements, built to last on solid foundations, with the finest >marble and other materials, with excellent taste in design, but no >gargoyles or impossible staircases anymore. More like the highest >skyscrapers in New York City than anything in Escher or Seuss. If the Pink >Floyd of "The Wall" had been architects, well, I guess they WERE architects >by then. And they built a wall. Out of bricks. > >Anyone care to speculate on post-wall buildings? I lost interest >by then. If the post-Waters Pink Floyd were architects, they'd be constructing generic Styrofoam models of buildings that vaguely resemble the grander buildings designed by more creative architects that have long since left the firm. And they'd probably be getting paid a shitload to do it. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:24:40 -0600 From: "Bergeon, Thomas C SEPCO" Subject: prog-crim-JPJ-Tool hi, I'm a very infrequent poster here 70's prog - some groups evolved, some didn't some were too stuck on image and virtuoso and let the songs stray too far glad to see some of the younger generation liking prog did Video kill the radio star? not on the prog end, overindulgence, the punk movement, etc but video made some ackward moments (and bigger sucess) for several prog groups (Yes, Genesis) funny but the most successful "punk" bands were those with good musicianship and songwriting (Police, Clash, Elvis Costello). Alot of prog artists reached their muse and then ran out of clear ideas others surfaced in different ways - Peter Gabriels excellent late 70's and 80's ventures. Crim wasn't around when punk exploded - but those elements were taken up in LoG and Exposure. 80's Crim was a progressive as it came in the early 80's, with new sound pallets of guitar as orchestra (well not quite) and less emphasis on keyboards. I do think Crim has gone a little stagnant at times, CoL was alot of rehash - but the live takes were much better, the new disc sounds nice tried to make a crim/jpj date in detroit, I did catch them in NEw Orleans - club setting, I like the new material. I caught JPJ on the Zooma tour, not only is he an incredible musician, he is a genuine and funny guy. You will be blown away by his playing and total improv basses, mandolins, keys, pedal lap steel you name it, he can pull it off. Always took the shadow role in Zeppelin let him come up and jam with crim! As for blowing them away, no, that's not his intention. Will Trey play with him or his touring stick player? Tool - caught their last show of the tour - New Orleans. The crowd of tool heads was not a pleasant one. Very crowded - as bad as mardi gras on Bourbon Street, lots of pushing, shoving, forcing themselves past a tight crowd, booing Better than Ezra and Bush who were on before tool. Tool had their full lightshow - like a Marilyn Manson or NIN clamation creepshow, the music was in some ways interesting, the band was not engaging in the least. Pearl Jam were much more impressive in that genre. We bolted after 6 songs and caught Black Crowes at another stage, much better vibe. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:43:09 EST From: Bknt at aol dot com Subject: architects and music I would adore seeing a plan for a building that might incorporate some of Mr. Fripp's ideas about music, practice, Guitar Craft kitchens, the necessity of working toilets during Guitar Craft sessions, orderly gardens and dank basements, breakfast cups and sweet chocolates, opportunities for practical rabbitry. Imagine the unquestioning benevolence, if not the Good Fairy itself, that might bring plumbing into the world! Bill Kent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:54:38 -0000 From: "Iain Kitt" Subject: Overly long posts Can there not be a limit on the length of posts to Elephant Talk? The, to start with, pointless thread about the decline or not of progrock is made worse by the fact that some people seem incapable of expressing their views succinctly. Wading through the verbal diarrhoea makes reading Elephant Talk less than its usual exciting self! Iain Kitt [ Yes, I have thought about this. Let's have a vote. ETers please email me (moderator at elephant-talk dot com) with a Subject line of: "I hate long posts" if you'd like to see some editing, or a Subject line of "I love long posts" if not. Please use these Subjects so I can count votes automatically. We can haggle about length later! -- Toby] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:31 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Clarification To be clear-- and to save poor Mr. Messinger endless embarrassment and haranguing-- the post that began thusly in ET #886 was written by me, not him. [ This was my mistake. Sorry. -- Toby ] >>>>>Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:48:24 -0500 >From: Bill Messinger, in #885: >Subject: Re: The 80's and MTV > >Ah, the impact of MTV-- one of my favorite subjects. > >Remember that old Zappa quote on rock critics-- that writing about music was >like painting about architecture?>>>>> --josh chasin-- jchasin at nyc dot rr dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:26 -0500 From: Leonardo_Gomez Subject: Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES I'm from Bogota, Colombia, and this is the first time I post to Elephant Talk, after three years of silent reading. After having read a lot of postings about that prog declined in the 80's, I totally agree with Gordon Griffith that say that the decline was not only due to the artists, but also to the listeners, market, technology and others. >Perhaps the true 'decline' in Prog music is a combination of older >musicians, older techniques, older listeners and older expectations. Really good conclusion for a debate that reminds me the differences of thinking of all the members of ET but also the richness and entertainment that give us a good discussion. I think everything lies in a listener. Why? I think that is hard to find a listener who evolves with the music, most listeneners became stagnant and are always waiting for a new ITCOTCK or a new "Close to the edge" but also it is hard to find groups that go through changes without lose their north. That's why Fripp decide not playing old material in the K.C. concerts. I think this is a wise decision, and is a form to oblige every fan to evolve with the group and the music. That is a rule that repeats in every branch of arts. Sooner or later everything ends, and death appears after a long disease. but there is a lot of artists that isn't sick and are doing music full of energy and passion, i.e. K.C., David Bowie, Djam Karet, Ozric Tentacles, Hackett and Gabriel and others. That doesn't mean that the sick ones hadn't leave a good and rich legacy and doesn't mean that everyone of us would have prefered a different history with a lot of good albums. ANDRES LEONARDO GOMEZ MARTINEZ "My son ask for thyself another Kingdom, for that which I leave is too small for thee" - King Philip of Macedonia, Talking about his son - Alexander the Great - 339 B.C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 19:28:18 -0500 From: Ted White Subject: Shine On You Crazy Architect In ET #886, "mike mclaughlin" sez: "Ok just to clarify I was of the understanding that Pink Floyd were Architectural students at Cambrige University when they formed the band, hence my comments on them becoming architects, this was in no way a nasty remark aimed at architects, and should not be taken that way (I can see I'm gonna have to be more explicit in my ET postings to avoid this kinda thing)." Just to back you up a little, Mike, here's a paragraph from my Collectingchannel.com article on Pink Floyd: "The band began as a rhythm and blues group called Sigma, which became The T-Set and then The Abdabs. When Syd Barrett joined he owned recordings by bluesmen Pink Anderson and Floyd Council and those names were condensed into Pink Floyd. Collectors will find the bands first interview was given in 1965 to the Regent Street Poly Magazine, published by the Regent Street Polytechnic school in London, while the band was still calling itself the Architectural Abdabs and attending that school." Regent Street Polytechnic wasn't Cambridge University, but.... --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:19:18 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Yeah, but what IS it? In re: Mark Tucker's well-thought out (if just the teensiest bit snippy) piece on "Corporate Prog Decline" that closed ET #886: Mark, you wrote at length about the genesis (no pun intended) of "Prog", but unless I couldn't find it (and lord knows, that remains a possibility) you never actually defined the term. In other words: you told us Iron Butterfly and Vanilla Fudge were antecedents, that it wasn't really the cross between classical and rock that many might assume, that it shared elements with classical Impressionism, that it was a culmination of what (I would argue, some but not all) psychedelic music began. All fine and dandy. But you never actually told us what it IS. As a result, I found myself unable to process many of your points. In the absence of definition, I didn't know how to react to the contention that Fripp's Crimson, for example, was THE seminal Prog band. I mean, what is Prog? Is it like obscenity, in that we know it when we see it? Please, do tell. Surely you've thought through the question of definition. Also, a minor point. On your slagging of Belew outside of Crimson-- certainly the Bears and his solo work may well be a matter of taste. But where he did his best non-Crimson work, I would suggest, was on other people's records (and tours), not his own. The Talking Heads' "Remain in Light" comes immediately to mind. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:42:33 -0700 From: "Prog Frog" Subject: Re: Corporate Prog Decline " after punk, ANYTHING sounded good. Hence, neoprog. " Now, really, I fail to see the relationship between the Sex Pistols / the Ramones / the Dead Boys and Marillion / IQ / Pallas. What I also utterly fail to understand is why "classic prog" sounds great and "neoprog" is garbage. Seriously, there are quite a couple of bands ripping off Yes, King Crimson, and Genesis out there and I just don't see the point in it. Alright, so Marillion was never as complex as Yes, but neither was Pink Floyd, and in the first place complexity doesn't alway equal better quality. Take Mahler vs Mozart or Bach vs Beethoven. Who's better? No one, each had his own compositional style and uniqueness, although Mahler's symphonic music is more complex than that of Mozart, and Bach (my personal favorite) practically wipes the floor with anyone pre-twentieth century as far as complexity is concerned. All these "requirements" of avant-gardism, complexity, etc. are just a mystery to me. I thought the purpose of music was to make something aesthetically appealing (whether in melancholy, joy, dramatism, or whatever) while expressing emotion at the same time, not the amount of notes, chords, or key changes in a movement (let alone this obssession with attacking anything that's remotely accesible). If that's the point, well, then progressive rock is lagging way behind jazz, fusion, and classical music, and rock was responsible for making ANYTHING sound good; not punk. Marcelo Silveyra Progfreaks.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:04:02 EST From: Obelisk123 at aol dot com Subject: future mind I like all the stuff I have heard Jon Paul Jones has done over the last bunch of years. I remember a night in NYC with his band n Diamanda Galas ripping a hole in my head sonically.. I am really gonna try to make it to see this shindig since I missed the last outing here in New Yawk.. Prog folks... What a strange lot we all are.. The style is constantly evolving and morphing . Sure I cuddle up with a book n listen to Gentle Giant. Wine n pine about mushroom adventures listening to Genesis, UK n the like... Got the new Ozric Tentacles offering in the car... Played an impromptu Pink Floyd "Echoes" in a bar this past weekend n reached a few moments of strangitude... I saw Yes the past three times they came thru here (N liked it).. The music is there for the taking..If a group is not performing or u can't deal with the way it is now..Then pick up an instrument n get going... There are many who would love to see ya take a shot at it.. I would buy ya a beer n heckle u a lil as I do a noodle dance over buy the jukebox. I am rambling but I just go n see people play for the sheer fun of it..No expectations.. Daevid Allen still kicks it out.. When I can't find anyone from the OLD school prog I go for the newer thangs..japenese Noise psych(Acid Mothers Temple) or the trippy Ghost.. Dabble with the Fusion n hodgepodge trance n come out at the end of the night sippin tea with ambient drum n bass burbling the speakers in the kitchen.. I seek out groups(Some I have had seen names in text on this list n wham...) I am grateful.. So .. Not all of it makes sense since I have only slept 5-6 hours a night cause I am cleaning chimneys n installing fireplaces 7 daze a week until the end of Dec ... So In closeing Fripp n crew always deliver the goods to this progger.. I listen to everything from Hatfield n the north to Eat static.. From the Ozric Tentacles to Holdsworth... N maybe a wee bit of Devo N I do think itz good.... I like it ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #887 ********************************