Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #886 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 886 Monday, 5 November 2001 Today's Topics: Re: My Previous Comments Re: decline progrock Hypocrital Cut and Paste of modern sounds. Re: MTV Re: John Paul Jones Level 5 in Los Angeles Pink Floyd Houses in Motion (or, at least, movement) No Strings Attached Re: The 80's and MTV advice Re: architects and music Re: Thanx for the help/"Prog "selling out" & cudo's to ET moderator! Concert EP Corporate Prog Decline ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 14:30:49 +0000 From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: Re: My Previous Comments Ok I was probably a bit harsh (and looking back slightly excessive) in the comments I made on Tony Colina's article on Prog in the 80's I'd like to apologise therefore for making some of the more vitriolic commentary I made (and also for the sheer length of the posting it did seem to get away from me), I appreciate that the opinions expressed were those of one man (they just happened to differ wildly from mine, which is fine). There it is the first apology I've ever made for my commentary (probably not the last though). That done as a post script can I just say that I've just got VROOOM VROOOM and I like it, that's the only opinion I can give at the moment as I've only listened to it the once but suffice to say it's worth a look. "Plagarism is dead long live Originality" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:38:07 -0800 (PST) From: Kazuhiko Saiga Subject: Re: decline progrock I write here in my point of view about this hot matter. Prog-rock founders are around '70's big name bands, which are Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, King Crimson,ELP, and Yes, and Genesis followed there. All of their members are same ages in same generation. Therefore they harvested crops once The Beatles planted, in their most prolific and imaginative years. That was decade of 1970's. And another my brutally view are below. All of Ideas and Methods about Rock Music are in the works of The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. I think this triangle are truly special. Kaz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:01:48 -0300 From: "jose poggio" Subject: Hypocrital Cut and Paste of modern sounds. I wonder astonished at "modern" progger musicians and listeners that say that modern music sucks but as one new release comes out we see copies of sound and production from commercial hated bands such as Radiohead, Limp Bizkit, Staind, Travis, Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, etc. This attitude is a shame. I agree that with the exception of NIN and some early Radiohead the sophisticated metal rap sucks, but surprinsingly is giving the frontedge of Prog sound???!!!, as proggers have stopped to experiment with technology and use the same old gear and sounds every time untill Limp Bizkit releases a new album!!!!. It is a shame!!!! jose ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:51:28 -0500 From: Sylvan Subject: Re: MTV On Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 10:25 AM, Elephant Talk wrote: > I guess I beg to differ on this one, I'd like to know what great music > MTV > spawned in the early 80's; maybe Journey, how about John Cougar or REO > Speedwagon. If memory serves me well, there might have been a few good > songs > at best. If anything, it was the newness of it all that made it > intriguing, > beyond that, it made the Top 40 stations of the day seem progressive. They Might Be Giants, who were I believe the first non-major label band to get onto MTV. XTC got some play on there, too. Sure, most of what they played was crap, but now *all* of it is crap-- when they play music videos at all. I haven't seen music on MTV in years... although I assume they still do it occasionally...? -- Sylvan http://agodslife.cjb.net "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:47:52 -0800 From: Neil Corkindale Subject: Re: John Paul Jones I've listened to several recordings of JPJ from his last US tour. Crimson fans are in for a major surprise. He's closer to Crimson now, musically, than Zep. JPJ is a magnificent bass player and superb arranger. His contribution to Zep was enormous and greatly under appreciated. I'd have him as second to John Entwhistle as the best ever bass player in rock. He has the potential to outshine Crimson on this tour! JPJ for Crimson? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:49:54 -0800 (PST) From: ProgNaut at webtv dot net (Ron) Subject: Level 5 in Los Angeles Is anyone going to this show? I would be going but I am recovering (badly) from corrective feet surgery and cant make it. I have a favor to ask, could you purchase that ep they are selling? I will front you the money of course. Please contact me offlist and thank you in advance. Best Regards, Ron oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ProgNaut.com - "a Progressive & Classic Rock Fan Site" http://www.ProgNaut.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:03:28 +0000 From: "mike mclaughlin" Subject: Pink Floyd Ok just to clarify I was of the understanding that Pink Floyd were Architectural students at Cambrige University when they formed the band, hence my comments on them becoming architects, this was in no way a nasty remark aimed at architects, and should not be taken that way (I can see I'm gonna have to be more explicit in my ET postings to avoid this kinda thing). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:09:09 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Houses in Motion (or, at least, movement) In ET # 88, Mr. Errol Tout offered this fascinating commentary: >>>>>I have recently completed a Masters degree on Music and Architecture [an examination of the constructs] where I ended up using the constructing ideas of a piece of Music to design a piece of Architecture. You may recieve a few flames [is that the right term?] from other failed rock stars er... architects [oh what a give away].>>>>> This immediately suggested the following and purely fabricated snatch of conversation which I actually heard with my own ears. The couple was house hunting: She: Two acres of land, good school district, four bedrooms, swimming pool-- will you please tell me what was wrong with that house? He: It was in F# minor. I just can't see myself living in that key. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:16:47 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: No Strings Attached >>>>>Wouldn't it be a great idea if, rather than trying to talk to Fripp, we spray him with Silly String?>>>>> I can see where this is going already. "Ladies and gentlemen, because someone sprayed silly string, we will not be playing FracKture this evening. And if it happens again, we will eliminate every song from the set list that contains a capitalized 'K.'" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:48:24 -0500 From: Bill Messinger, in #885: Subject: Re: The 80's and MTV Ah, the impact of MTV-- one of my favorite subjects. Remember that old Zappa quote on rock critics-- that writing about music was like painting about architecture? I remember vividly the day my 11-year-old sister (so this must have been 1982) asked me if I'd seen the new song by so-and-so. And I thought to myself, "seen" a song? (Yes-- right after I tasted some sculpture.) Oh dear-- my little sister was going to grow up thinking a song was something you "saw." Not something you "heard." What MTV did to music was, to a great extent in the 80's, and to a lesser extent to this day, took an audio medium and made it a visual one. I remember thinking, at that moment with my sister, that if they'd had MTV in, say, 1971, then no one would have been able to paint their own mental pictures to "Stairway to Heaven" (never a fave of mine, but what can I say, it is what popped into my head.) We had come to a point in time when, suddenly, for a song to become a pop hit, we had to know what it looked like. This spawned the "MTV" bands, artists who became popular because of the outrageousness of their haircuts (Culture Club, Cyndi Lauper, Flock of Seagulls) or their ability to writhe or crotch-grab winningly (Michael Jackson, Madonna) or even-- in the odd instance or two-- their ability to create a creative piece of film (Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" comes to mind.) Nothing had more influence on radio airplay (in the states, certainly) in the 80's than MTV, which was to say, nothing was as important in creating music trends, breaking artists, or selling albums, as one's visual acumen. Musical ability, no matter how you sliced it, ran (at best) a distant second. I remain convinced that the "sound" of the 80's-- all that synth-pop and beatbox stuff-- was more a function of the fact that these machines were easy for non-musicians (or certainly, to be fair, non-virtuosos) to use in putting together a catchy backing track to shake a haircut to. Were there any guitar Gods in the 80's? Well, Eddie Van Halen comes to mind-- and yet when the muggish buffoon David Lee Roth left the band, it was they, not he, that dropped off the pop radar screen (remember his "California Girls"? Remember any video with Sammy Hagar in it?) Honestly, even if you disagree with me (as many of you undoubtedly will), can you read the names of these songs and not "see" them? "Girls Just Want to Have Fun", Cyndi Lauper "Mickey", Tony Basil "Beat It", Michael Jackson "Hot for Teacher", Van Halen "Like a Virgin", Madonna Would Culture Club have been as popular if Boy George looked like-- oh, say, Adrian Belew or Tony Levin? Would Cyndi Lauper have been as popular with short brown hair? I don't think so. The impact of MTV on rock radio in the 80's was, quite simply, to supercede radio in the role of hitmaker. I remain convinced that music like the '81-'84 Crimson trilogy would have made a major splash on rock radio, which is then to say the popular zeitgeist, if not for this sea change. Of course you can't stop the sea from changing, can you. But you can miss the islands. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:52:16 EST From: DonnonMurray at aol dot com Subject: advice someone wrote: Also, huuuuge Crimso freak.So, naturally, since this date is going to occur, I just MUST be there.Right to the point: any tips on meeting the men before or after the show? I don't know about John Paul Jones but I've heard if you snap some Polaroids of Fripp during the Crimson set, he'd be more than happy to sign them after the show. good luck....donnon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:33:21 -0500 From: "Jeffrey N. Oaster" Subject: Re: architects and music >Mike McLaughlin posted an interesting message. His quote 'They'd be stagnating or they'd have given up music and become architects' could only be described as a bit harsh - to Architects at least. Does Mr. McLaughlin suggest that Architects are failed rock stars? Just to clear things up. Mr. McLaughlin meant that they would become architects in a most literal sense. The four founding members met while they were at architecture school in England. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:40:24 -0800 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: Thanx for the help/"Prog "selling out" & cudo's to ET moderator! Hello All; First off I want to thank Randy & Jason for their posts in ET #885. After I found the "Best of Beat Club 73" dvd online.(could only find it from Germany!!)My first thought's on it were: This dvd won't have all region encoding, or region 1 encoding, so I would'nt be able to play it on my dvd player!! Thanks for clearing up any ?'s I did have on that! This leads me to my next point which like other Et'ers is: I need to be able to trade for many Crimson performances that DO EXSIST on video. I need stuff as recent as the Letterman performance a few yrs ago to older stuff like the Lark's Tounge snipett(w/Jamie Muir)from the Beat Club or whatever other source this is available on, to the MidNite Special performance(I know it's pre-home vcr's but it is out there!)as well as ANY tv performance(the Old Grey Whistle Test, ect. ect.)by KC. All I have is a 20 yr old(complete)performance of KC on "Friday's" "The Noise" & "Three of a Perfect Pair", so I'm in desperate need of what I mentioned above as well as the various other performances on "free" tv(or cable)as well as possible video of the band in things "they"may have released! I(as you can tell)have little KC on video to offer in return, BUT DO HAVE a bunch of Frank Zappa stuff, from ORIGINAL video's, as well as tv performances, & many interviews.(Much is 20 yrs old or more)I also have tons of stuff by other artists, Gary Husband-Gary Moore-Alan Holdsworth-Dream Theatre-Terry Bozzio-Jeff Beck-Deep Purple-ELP-Sting w/Vinney Colaiuta-ect. ect. ect. I know you'd be happy w/the material I could provide, so PLS e-mail me, you won't be sorry.(The video quality of the stuff I have is TOP NOTCH!!) I have to comment(sorry, don't recall posters names)about the Punk movement getting started in 72/74 whatever. The poster(s) was correct on some names Stooges/MC-5, but was way off on the dates! I saw Iggy(& The Stooges)for the 1st time here in 69(then a yr later)and the MC5 were already going strong.(even tho this poster never saw the MC5's appeal, as they could'nt play AT ALL, relied on many Marshall stacks to get over, & could'nt write songs to save their lives!)I can hear/feel the flames now, but at least w/Iggy you knew you were going to get an entertaining show, even tho his band(The Stooges)could'nt play either! You could rely on Iggy(if that's what you were looking for)to at least, 1)cut himself w/glass, whatever, 2)bust his own mouth open w/his mic, 3)use dynamics in his music. While it's a VERY simple song, this poster feels the song "Dirt" still stands today as THE Punk anthem, as it was performed "live" kind of like a James Brown song(Yeah i'm old enough to have seen James live in both 67 & 68, again many times yrs later, but in the 60's my friends & I were the ONLY white people there!! It was erie, as we formed a white polka dot in a sea of black!!)So Iggy IS the Godfather of Punk altho I personally quit "being a fan" after the 1st 2or 3 albums. I have to disagree w/Paul's comments in #885 about St. Louis being a back water town. Sure St. Louis does'nt mesure up to a few other cities in the U.S., but having been here for most of my life I think St. Louis is a great place to be in a band & have a chance to play any kind of music you want and have MANY venues to do it at.(I know i've been playing here since the 60's). St. Louis also(unlike many cities you hear Et'ers bitching about)is a town where not only has Crimson felt it MUST come to to play(I can't recall the exact # of times but it's more than a 1/2 dozen times!!)but so many other diverse bands felt that way too(be it Prog. Jazz-World Music-Experimental, ect)and have made sure to perform here! People like the Mahavishnu Orchestra-Jeff Beck(so many times over the yrs)the Who decided to test the rock opera "Tommy" here at Keil Opera House, & played here before & after that, Hendrix was here TWICE!(how many cities can say that)Jethro Tull began comming in 1970 & has'nt stopped yet, Yes also made numerous appearences begginning in 70, then,we have too many different types of Jazz bands to mention, and the "big name" acts always made sure to come here. I'm leaving out so many but would take an entire issue of ET to cover. The night life is damn good here, & if you wan't to stay up past 3am listening to music/drinking/whatever, just take 10 mins to drive to East St. Louis/elsewhere. We have a top 5 symphonic orchestra, & fabulous art museum as well as a pretty fair assortment of stores/shop's to find things & spend $ at. Even though we don't have a Professional Basketball team(that's ok w/me!)you can get your basketball fix via various top notch college teams, we have a great Baseball team(16 or so World titles)the best & most entertainiong to watch Pro Football team in the Ram's(remember them winning the Superbowl in the 99 season)who will be in the playoff's once again, and a Hockey team who seems to make it to the playoff's(not a great feat considering how many teams get in)and are pretty damn good. Anyway, I know i'm overlooking other great aspects this city has to offer, but i've rambled on too long. Remember KC here on 11/25!! My last point, is on the Prog bands "selling out"/changing. I believe most of the important facts have been covered in ET ad nauseam, but THE "important" idea covered I believe, is the element of time. Time changes everything!, but especially within bands, as I believe(as has been covered here)the willing-ness to either change your style of playing/writing, or surrounding personel to keep the music fresh is the key! I know that for me, i've been in a band or 2 that were commercially (or audience wise)sucessful, & at that time I was at 1st unwilling to change personel, but after some thought saw that by changing personel "our" band would either, 1)totally suck & lose it's sucess, or 2)become fresh and remain sucessful, & the audience would(for the most part)be smart enough to stick w/the band and the changes made & keep comming to see us. Now doing this(the changing of personal)can be very traumatic for the people now out of the band; I know this full well as I have been one of the "personel changes" that 1 of the very sucessful groups I was in "had to go", but even tho it "hurt's" you eventually see the reason for it & if you're a good enough musician, you always find another spot(usually by another sucessful band "looking to make changes") & go on to be part of "another" sucessful unit.(It sometimes helps too if the band you got the "boot" from falls on it's face after you leave!( I know, i'm a sick uncaring s.o.b) Now by being a "traumatic" experience, I was talking about a situation where I became the "new drummer"(the other guy had been drafted to go to Veit Nam!)for a hugely sucessfull band, that had been together for many yrs prior to me becomming a part of it, then we stayed a success, & became even more successful after I "got in" & were together for 4 or 5 years before I became 1 of the casualties of "change"!(It takes awhile to accept, but it REALLY helps ease the pain if you're lucky/determined enough to join "another sucessful group"! Of course $ and other "outside" influence's are other reason's for the "selling out" of any band, but the key towards NOT doing so IS TIME, & the willingness to change what you do or WHO you do it with. Thanks to the moderator(who does'nt get nearly enough credit, for making ET the best newsletter of it's kind online. I truly appreciate the love/effort it must take to do this job)and if the change has been made already in this area, I must say whomever does it now is doing a fantastic job(no ass kissing here)as the change-over has been seemless! Thanks for the space for me to express myself!!! "The modern day composer refuses to die" FZ Steven Munari PS: Still looking for others who will be comming in for the KC/John Paul Jones 11/25 concert, that we might get together, pre/post concert. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:46:01 GMT+00:00 From: adrian_sutton at talk21 dot com Subject: Concert EP Hi, At least you goys in the USA get chances to see KC. They palyed ONE date in the UK. And I missed it !!!!!!!. So if anyone would like to buy a extra copy I'll repay you inc of course postage. Email me if you are willing to help, I only want one copy! adrian_sutton at talk21 dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:23:27 -0800 From: "Mark Tucker" Subject: Corporate Prog Decline This bout of pensees and polemics re: progressive musics obvious decline after the 70s is an odd exercise. For myself, I come down on the side of Tony Colina, who chose particularly excellent examples to make his points. He located a number of, what I see to be, irrefutable high points in prog history. Id like to present history as the teacher in this debate. There is a good deal of misinformation about progs genesis. Its widely hailed, even by critics who should know better, that prog is the marriage of rock and classical musics. Thats not really right. The truest wellspring of prog was psychedelic music, which had no real classical roots, though may be argued that, since the English were the driving force in rock in the 60s & 70s, there are certain elements in common with classical Impressionism (Debussy, Ravel, etc.). Impressionism was more forward-looking, with far less constrained structures than were found in the more rigidly formal classical world - after all, one could hardly group Satie in with Couperin, could one? The English (then, at least) were far better schooled than the Americans, with immersion in classical music being one of the staples of their education; hence they were, on the whole, better and more knowing musicians (and largely still are, though thats dying off fast; theyve westernized) and took a hell of a lot more from classical erudition than Americans were able to. Some of psychedelics exploratory nature COULD be said to have Impressionist antecedents, but the argument would be valid only in terms of echoes. More properly, the reverse would be true: if you want to see how (unacknowledgedly) influential the intelligent rock musics (psych and prog) were , look to Paul Gigers Schattenwelt, Gyorgy Kurtag, Giya Kancheli, Sofia Gubailadina, and the raft of neoclassicalists, especially Glass, Reich, and the serial minimalists. Granted, most of that influence came to these august composers second- and third-hand, but it came nonetheless and was incorporated. One neednt be an ethnomusicologist to understand this (Glass, ever the rebel, doesnt join his colleagues in eschewing and demeaning rock, he openly admits its infuences on him, bless his humanistic heart). Progs truest roots lay in Iron Butterfly, Hendrix, the Electric Prunes, Fever Tree, the Vanilla Fudge, and the rockers who were trying to take the form to another level without borrowing whole cloth from what went before (over and above the classical debates, they were especially trying to get away from chromatic blues, which still dominates rock music). Thats the creative impulse: to use history but invent a new wrinkle in it. Personally, what got me into prog was the Vanilla Fudges Renaissance release, with its wide forlorn environments and spacey devices. Not long after, I discovered Blue Oyster Cults first LP (a VERY progressive release, when one takes the time to consider it), and then one day, while reading Creem magazine, my favorite Guitar Guy of the time, Pete Townshend, in an advertisement, made a huge pronouncement about this new band he was gaga about, calling them the future of rock: King Crimson. Well, if it was good enough for Pete, it was good enough for me so I bought the LP without having heard a note of it. Thus was I caught, hook, line, and sinker. This one Lp led to an avid thirst for intelligent music, which I began buying as much as I could of. However, the thing I noted distinctly, was, over and above the direct rip-offs from the classical catalog, the ingenuity of the composers and players, and this was nowhere more astonishingly embodied than in Fripps guitar playing, the culmination of everything psychedelicism was reaching for, finally brought to fruition through his daunting intelligence and (almost never mentioned) intuition. I think it may be seen, if anyone could be conceded the dubious title of #1 Prog Guy, it would have to be Fripp. His band was THE seminal prog band, defined the medium, and set the standard by which all future bands would be judged. Contemporaneously, he had excellent competition for the title: Gentle Giant, Genesis, the Strawbs, Pink Floyd, etc., but it didnt much matter: Fripp was The Man (and I doubt Ill find much argumentation on that point in this group). Crimsons base nature has always been a skillful and disciplined (does anyone kid himself that Fripps Fullerian adoption of that word was accidental?) exploration of musics hinterlands, an opening up of new territory, a way of repatriating intelligence back into rock after its gawdawful excision once the Americans re-took dominance (the rock world has always been a battleground for supremacy between the English and American). The band has always remained at the forefront of the form (except for the Sleepless release), but recessed itself beginning with Discipline, which successfully (get ready....here it comes....steel yourself:) commercialized them, positioning the hoary icon within the new post-punk world by coming to terms with the direction the market was taking while still injecting intelligence. HOWEVER, this also marked, but did not create, the advent of a diminution of the near-entire form into more acceptable terms. At least, that would be the Conventional-New-Age-Insult-Nobody excuse. The real explanation is a very noticeable lack of personal and artistic discipline, not to mention pure creativity, in modern musicians; thats the contrast. Unfortunately, thats also what dictated the fortunes of the market and if you want to remain survivable, youll do what needs to be done to keep the dollars rolling in...or you wont be heard from anymore. Punk music was the stupidest music form the world has even seen. Those idiots could barely play their instruments, sang like roadkill, and couldnt do much more than thrash-ape the most basic Kinks chords and compositions. Were it not for the 60s, ironically, punk would have had no groundwork. But the base element is that they were, for the largest part (you did have a few good musicians: Dave Alvin, etc.), a buncha jag-offs with no talent, nothing to say, and a jones for glamour in its most perverse form (why do ya think they were dropping like flies from heroin ODs?). They appealed to the lowest common denominator and had hardly a shred of what might ever be called discipline or intelligence. Ive always said that punk was blessing...for the stupid and ugly. Now, at least, they could socialize. They, God help us, provided the blueprint for the new music milieu. Sloth, insincerity and a complete lack of knowledge were now perfectly acceptable, and, after punk, ANYTHING sounded good. Hence, neoprog. Here, then, we have the WHY for the so-called prog slog. Colina noted a milestone LP: Pink Floyds Ummagumma , which I see to be the apotheosization of psychedelic music (companioned by Amon Duuls Wolf City, Fever Trees Fever Tree and a handful of others). It also showed the heart of prog. It still is the Floyds least understood and least appreciated LP (Dark Side, as Colina noted, was to Pink Floyd what Discipline was to King Crimson) (and Final Cut was, it should be noted amidst all this twee philosophizing, a near-total excrescence). Ummagumma was a blood and sweat exposition of pure creativity, ensemble-wise and personally. To me, it stands with the Lizard suite, Tales from the Topographic Oceans, and In the Region of the Summer Stars as amongst the truest examples of neoclassicalism in the 20th century. Its not to be disdained that others dont see this properly; it usually takes the society about 50 years to catch up with artists. The flourishing of progressive music derived from its creators disciplined approach to their craft. Jan Akkerman was steeped in traditionalism (listen to Tabernakkel or Profile) and ferociusly inventive (Eclipse); Dave Cousins took folk music to fields it had never ventured into previously (Dave Lambert provided the grounding back into rock); Steve Howe was frighteningly well-read in technique (Chet Atkins, of all people!) and blindingly passionate; the DeCamps Bros injected a Bergmanesque cinematography; McLaughln discovered Carnatic music and transcended the periphery so far that hes never really been overdone since, just proximately approached (DiMeola, etc.); and so on. But the keys were three: intelligence, discipline and constant hard work (which is NOT quite the same as discipline, especially in music). The last, in particular, was what provided the real-time edge the masters had: amidst the studio trickery so prevalent at the time, they could jump on stage and beat the unholy bejeezus out of the pretenders-to-the-throne instrumentally. THAT itself did not represent intelligence but a hell of a lot of practice. These guys used to practice night and day - the tales of Jon Andersons understanding of the necessity of this, and subsequent tyrannical rehearsal approach, secured Yes their fortunes and repute. From what I know of it, Fripp was no less so...during the brief incarnations of each version of Crimson. Probably the best right-now illustration is Adrian Belew. In Crimson, he shines very brightly; in The Bears and the plethora of his solo releases, hes mediocre at best (except for the Lone Rhino LP). Its only under the discipline Fripp demands of the group that his deep native skills really emerge. There are few citations I can point to in modern prog that emulate the Old Hard Knocks School approach (except in the prog-metal groups...and most of their problem is compositional sloth; they sweat their brains out in the chops dept.), but such instances as Marillion, Saga, Porcupine Tree, and a clutch of recognized others evidence the soundness of the assertion: its obvious they work long and hard at their craft. So, to end, it is NOT any of these million and one, and nebulous, speculations that explain the comparatively lackluster ambience of the prog milieu, its merely the absence of dedication and time devoted. As Ive said elsewhere, bands nowadays seem to take six music lessons, then cut a CD. Well, what sort of result would you expect from this? This is where the Citadels, and other gone-bys, briefly step in and are just as quickly ushered back out. Weak formulaic recitations substitute for true invention and nobody goes anywhere. Soon, apathy results and its back to punk - as long as were going to be stupid, I guess we might as well wallow in it, hm? And the old masters? Well: Fripp has branched off in a million directions, only rarely going back to old prowesses, and done mostly very well at it (we wont mention the dippy Project material); Fish reverted back to basic rock: Saga has a tough go despite a constant waffle between mainstreamism and their old glories; the Strawbs struggle to keep a presence even on the obscurest edges of the field; Gentle Giant threw in the towel, even going to the extreme of joining the corporate end of the biz; Tull hasnt produced anything of true worth since Passion Play (which came out somewhat just after the Jurassic); Floyd struggles ever on, propped up only by Gilmours genius; the list goes on and on and on, mostly chagrinning. Why? Very simple, really; I said it above: the stupidity of the market. Progressive music is the set of pearls, the rock audience are the swine - thus, only the few maverick listeners ever have an appreciation of art, and the practitioners ever must bastardize their dreams for shekels. Welcome to earth. -Marc S. Tucker- Critic, Progression magazine. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #886 ********************************