Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #882 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 882 Friday, 26 October 2001 Today's Topics: Re: Video footage of classic Crimson GGF Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE Stickist Greg Howard on tour Re: A source for great prog/other performances on video Decline Of Prog In The 80's - A Response PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES Sound of Surprise in Russia PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES? Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE Re: Epitaph Recording New prog rock book! On Yes, Genesis, and Floyd in the 80's Re: "ad nothing to an artist's repertoire" wetton colaboration Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:11:34 From: "paul dickinson" Subject: Re: Video footage of classic Crimson First post from ET lurker after reading 200+ editions:- In ET 879 Pete Clark asks >thought i'd enquire about the availability of video footage of the >Wetton/Bruford/Cross/Fripp/Muir version of King Crimson, following the >tantalising glimpses shown in the 'Top 10 Progressive Rock' programme on >Channel 4. This footage is now available on DVD as part of the 'Beat Club' series on the 'Best of '73' edition - there is an excerpt (approx. 5-6mins) of Larks part1 - haven't checked to see if this is identical to the KCCC 3 version but I suspect it is. Also on this DVD which may be of interest to fans of the first KC line up is a clip of ELP playing 'Knife Edge' (approx. 7-8mins), and some other good moments including Roxy Music (with Eno). The DVD costs #12.99 and is quite widely available at the moment (bought my copy at HMV). Paul Dickinson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Akilles Juntunen Subject: GGF I wonder if there's anyone else out there who thinks that "The Cheerful Insanity of Giles, Giles & Fripp" is a marvellous album in its own right and not just a slightly embarrassing epilogue in the ever-continuing saga of King Crimson. Please, give this album a chance and listen to it without wasting time on contemplating its relation to that great scheme of things that the Crimson oeuvre undoubtedly is. Sit back, relax, have some fun and tap your foot in the time signature of your choice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:16:09 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE In ET #881, Tony Colina mused: > It is actually very sad to hear the enormous differences between records > like Abacab, or 90125, or The Final Cut, and records like Selling England > by the Pound, or Close to the Edge, or Ummagumma. Is it really? The Final Cut is a fairly serious piece of social comment, Ummagumma's studio sides are range from pretentious to waffling (the latter actually Dave Gilmour's term for his contribution I believe) which I won't give house space to. I'm not overly familiar with Close to the Edge, but given a choice of, say, Tales From Topographic Oceans or 90125, I'll take the later set any day of the week. Selling England by the Pound and Abacab have nothing much in common, but I like them both and they're both good records. > They couldn't, because their musical visions and the eighties music biz's > ones were totally different and unmatchable. But they didn't have to match them, if they didn't really want to. Could it possibly be that they were developing that way on their own? > They believed that the only way to go on was to "refresh" their music, but > the only thing they were able to do was to pare down arrangements and > shorten track lengths, thus taking away from that music some of its best > ingredients. At least in the case of Floyd I think this is badly wrong. Stuff like The Wall and Final Cut were, AFAICT, made becasue of Waters' increased domination of the group and those formats being more appropriate to what he had to say at the time. Do you really think either is pandering to fashion? Gilmour has stated he thought a lot of the musical content was poor, and that Waters was more interested in the words. That isn't pandering to the music industry, it's pandering to what he wanted to say, and how. If paring down arrangements is what it's all about, why is there an orchestra on The Final Cut? 90125 refelcts Trevor Horn's input to Yes: immaculate and over-the-top production. The arrangements may be different and based on a lot of studio fiddling, but they're far from "pared down". > Of course, each band had a different approach to it. For example, in my > humble opinion Pink Floyd's musical decay started way back in 1973, with the > widely acclaimed Dark Side of the Moon. Do not misunderstand me, that one is > a beautiful record made up of beautiful songs, but this is the point: > "beautiful" is not always a synonim with "interesting", or "avantgarde", or > "experimental". Why have I chosen these definitions? Because that is what > Pink Floyd were when they started: an avantgarde, experimental band - > perhaps the most avantgarde and experimental band of their times. And on DSotM they started making records about reality, rather than cosmic themes and strange noises for the sake of them. That's development, even if it isn't the way you happen to like. > Curiously enough, the level of lyrics started to improve from that record > on, probably reaching the top with The Wall. But that, as they say, is > another story. Probably it's not another story at all. Both aspects are probably a direct result of Waters exerting more control over the band's output, not because they were trying to make million sellers. Think about it: it's 1973, what's a sure fire seller? How about an album about all the things that drive people mad? Oh, bound to sell truckloads... ;-) > This the others did not understand, that is why they lost it. Yes "lost it" with Tales From Topographic Oceans for a lot of people. 90125 isn't the work of has-beens, nor is Abacab or Genesis. The Final Cut and The Wall are quite unlike any other rock records ever made, and they are widely owned and respected to this day. Crimson's way was right for Crimson. For those people that think Crimson died in 1974 (I'm not one, my primary interest in them *starts* in 1980) an approach with more continuity would probably have been preferable. There's room for both ways as long as there's more than one band in the world. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:50:16 EDT From: Micrael at aol dot com Subject: Stickist Greg Howard on tour I attended the Detroit Stick Night Wednesday night in Detroit and saw some fantastic musicianship featuring four solo Stick performers. The show featured Greg Howard from Charlottesville, Virginia, http://www.greghoward.com who I first saw during NEARfest 2001 in June. Greg's mastery of the Chapman Stick ranks him among finest players I've seen. Last night's performance ranged from tranquil passages which soared into more melodic compositions which left the room amazed and eager for more by the end of his set. He closed the set with a beautiful version of the Beatles' "Across the Universe," which seemed appropriate today with its "Nothing's gonna change my world" line. Greg was able to stop in Detroit on his way to the Minneapolis area, where he will open soon for Tim Reynolds's Nomadic Wavelength Tour in Minneapolis, at Minnesota State, UW-Platteville and in Rockford, IL. In November, Greg continues touring with Tim at the University of Arkansas, Dallas, Texas A&M, Austin, Houston, New Orleans, Tallahassee and Atlanta before more solo gigs in Charlottesville and Baileys Crossroads, Virginia. If you live in these areas, I highly recommend you see Greg. I haven't had a chance to hear the CDs I bought, but they'll be spinning tonight. Greg will be returning to the Detroit area (Ferndale) on Saturday, Nov. 17. Also featured last night was Detroit's Gary Jibilian, who plays with equal dexterity the NS Stick, a modification of the original Chapman Stick. I first was Gary in Jibilian/Glass, a NS Stick/drum duet which opened for Bill Bruford's Earthworks in Detroit. Gary's writing has evolved tremendously since I first saw him live, and his CD is one of my more satisfying purchases this year. Gary presented a couple new pieces last night which filled the room with enough sound for a three-piece, with his interesting loops and frenetic fingerwork. Jibilian/Glass http://pages.prodigy.net/jibilianbass/ will open for the California Guitar Trio in Ann Arbor, MI on Monday, Oct. 29. Another show not to be missed! Two other Detroit area Stickists also played last night, Glenn Poorman and Steve Osburn. Their material was not as familiar but they brought a unique approach to their playing. Their sets featured some nice ambient moments and some more adventurous compositions. I look forward to hearing more from them also. Mike np: Jah Wobble and Deep Space "Deep Space" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:40:54 -0700 From: "LAVERNE MUNARI" Subject: Re: A source for great prog/other performances on video First, I apologize in advance if this has been covered, but I have been reading ET for a long time & have never come across this link. My decision to do this post came to me after reading boxoffice at broadway dot org dot uk post in ET, but I am sure MANY ET reader's will find the link below to their liking, even if it means they have to dig into their pockets to be able to get great performances of musical groups they probably did'nt think exsisted. Thus far, I have not been able to locate any video of the Jamie Muir era of KC(if anyone knows of this or similar era KC pls respond to me directly)however the link www.BaltCD.com will provide you with a site that has rare-out of print-or otherwise cd's-video's-vinyl-dvd's by both well known & eclectic artists. They provide great service of the above mentioned items even tho they are half-way around the world from me. Just a couple of examples of "videotapes" they sent me in an "update" after I bought 3 "original" videotapes of Frank Zappa which are no longer available(even Gail Zappa at Zappa.com does'nt have these back in stock!)are: 1)"Beat Club Summer 70 Vol. 2" features performances by Blodwyn Pig-Van Der Graaf Generator-Rare Bird-Santanna-many more. $24.99 2)"Beat Club Summer 72" feat. Captain Beefheart-Deep Purple-Kinks-The Doors-many more. $24.99 They have many-many other video's that include artists such as: The Move-Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger-Manfred Mann-Procol Harum-The Hollies-PG&E-Bonzo Dog Band-The Grateful Dead-and an entire video of the band "Free". There is just too much to cover here excluding the non video stuff. BTW I am just a customer, I have nothing to do with the company. When I found the 3 FZ video's("Live at the Beat Club 68"-"Does Humor Belong in Music" & "The Amazing Mr. Bickford")I was more than a little hesitant to send them my $, but ONLY 7 days later I received all 3 video's in their original condition, not "bootlegs" or dubs as I had seen elsewhere, and I feel very secure in future orders I WILL place. I used a credit card which i'm sure helped in the quick delivery but you can order other ways. Just so you'll know & understand their s&h charges, from the company's title I had assumed(sic)that the location was Baltimore, MD. USA, but upon receiving the pkg & reading the green customs label my guess is it's the Baltics/Russia because of the nature of printed language, as the only words I can really make out are; St. Petersbourg,(so we all know i'm no linguist/genius)On the ordering portion of the site they tell you, "2 to 3 weeks" for shipping, but as I said I had my stuff(even w/this postal scare)within 10 days securely packaged. Have fun checking out their stuff.(I know I did!) Lastly, the boy's are comming to St. Louis 11/25, & I guess we should consider ourselves(here)blessed, as that makes 2 seperate performances by the King in a little more than 5 yrs(the dbl trio in 94 & today's outfit)the other times being in Feb 20, 1972(my favorite KC experience!)& just a yr later May 12th, 1973!! The tour listings in BOTH "A Young Persons Guide to KC" & "The Essential King Crimson" give it as St. Louis, Mississippi, I guess they were impressed by the river? !? As the date here grows closer I look forward to reports of performances prior to the 1 here in ET, also the "Premium tickets" supposedly held out for "special Crimsonoids" here too are General Admission, the only seperation being "floor seats" & "balcony seating". I'll be on the floor level so that's ok with me. I do look forward to the John Paul(The Pope)Jones Group even tho I have'nt heard anything by them. I hope my rambling was/is helpful to anyone out there having trouble finding specific musical events, & while my pockets are more empty than usual, my heart/head is full!! "There are 40 people in the World and 5 of them are Hamburgers" Don Van Vliet Thanks, Steven Munari PS: If you live here or plan on going 11/25 feel free to e-mail me for possible pre/post meet! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:54:58 -0400 From: "John Spokus" Subject: Decline Of Prog In The 80's - A Response I do agree with a lot of Tony Colina's points in his posting,but I must get my two cents in. First,I don't think punk contributed to the decline of prog all that much. Albums like Abacab or 90125 really had little to do with punk,they were more like mainstream pop. If anything punk brought a lot more acceptance to many alternative forms of music.Hell after punk Captain Beefheart was welcomed by Virgin Records to make the kind of music he wanted to do;not the feeble attempt at commercialism that watered down his mid-seventies albums.Then after he had his say, he got out of music before he became an anachronism. Maybe I'm an oddball here,but I appreciate punk, just like I appreciate prog or roots rock like Elvis or Chuck Berry,which none of the other forms would have happened if it had not been for the forefathers of rock in general. Sure major record labels have always put pressure on their artists to write "hits" in every era.We see more of our prog heroes now with the financial clout (probably from the CD age and re-issues)turning their back on the majors,putting out their own product for a choice audience, and maybe making more money than they did in the past, without the fat cats getting their cut. Yes, I prefer pre-Dark Side Floyd also,but every band has to evolve and can't get stuck in a rut for a certain amount of fans that only appreciate one aspect of their music. I don't knock Dark Side either,it is a masterfully put together record;however it just seemed like Pink Floyd has spent the rest of their career trying to re-create the same record. Also,you can't deny the fact the King Crimson was influenced by New Wave music in the eighties. To me that trilogy,which I love especially, Discipline,owes something to Talking Heads,especially Belew's vocals. Of course both he and Fripp played with them for christsake. And the 80's had some new prog acts that sprouted during the decade,Remeber some guys named Marillion,who like Crimson don't stand still and keep evolving thanks to a Mr. Hogarth. As for comments about fashion,didn't Crimson wear hippie-ish psychedelic clothes in the late 60's and early seventies,then switch to the skinny tie and jacket look in the 80's.They had to market themselves also. I like Never Mind The Bollocks,The Clash,The Damned etc.They all sit on my bookcase side by side with Close To The Edge,ITCOTCK,Discipline,Trout Mask Replica,Hank Williams Greatests Hits,Bob Marley,Sinatra, you name it. I find good in all forms of music that have heart and soul in them. John Spokus musician,Baltimore,MD USA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:12:14 +0200 From: Laurent Masse Subject: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES >PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE >It is actually very sad to hear >the enormous differences between records like Abacab, or 90125, or The Final >Cut, and records like Selling England by the Pound, or Close to the Edge, or >Ummagumma. >Well, obviously the answer is no. They couldn't, because their musical >visions and the eighties music biz's ones were totally different and >unmatchable. They believed that the only way to go on was to "refresh" their >music, but the only thing they were able to do was to pare down arrangements >and shorten track lengths, thus taking away from that music some of its best >ingredients. Sorry, but this sounds much too simple for me. Of course the biz is one big reason, but if you listen carefully to Abacab and what the guys had to say about it, I think it's much more than simply paring down arrangements. After the big commercial success of Duke, did they really need to change everything that drastically for pure commercial reasons? Just one example. My point is, maybe some of these groups jumped on the occasion to finally do something they really wanted to do but could not try before because they were stuck in some kind of rigid musical form by press and audience expectations. Basically, all the groups you cited are POP groups writing POP songs, even if, at some point in their career, they experimented with the form. KC never was a POP group. Some POP tunes were always thrown here and there for good measure, but the whole point of the group always was something else, and they finally got rid of pop songs on COL, 30 years after they started. And, BTW, I don't especially like Abacab past the first two cuts. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:13:46 +0400 From: "WWN" Subject: Sound of Surprise in Russia Hi! Recently I've bought Bruford's Earthworks Sound of Surprise "for distribution only in CIS" - and it's without videotrack, just simple AudioCD. What's the f@ck? Has anybody in Russia bought the full version, when & where? Sveta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:58:21 -0700 From: Hb Subject: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES? Our friend, Tony Colina, provided us with an interesting view of the decline of "Progressive" Rock music in the '80's. I mostly agree with his points, but I feel he over-simplified or over-looked some other important aspects of this 'decline'.. The '70's, for whatever people may think of this decade (Were you there?), was one of the most creative and free times for musicians and the Industry. But times change, politics change (Thatcher?) and social and economics change. Sure punk came along to influence things, but this was only a small criteria for what transpired in the 80's and beyond. Did these bands really sell out or were they merely attempting to roll with the changes? This is certainly debatable. Consider also that music of the '60's and '70's was rooted in a counterculture. We could say that by the late '70's, the sixties (as a political and cultural phenomenon) was mostly played out. The time of capitalism's ideological retreat, which allowed for much creative social, and artistic expression, was over. This is as crucial an element to consider as the role of the Music Industry for this period. As we can see. many things influenced the music of the time and how it evolved and became "commercial" vs "avant-garde".. (BTW, 'Never Mind the Bullocks, came out the same year as 'Going for the One', 'Songs from the Wood', etc.) Also, along with the emergence of Punk, came New Wave, which certainly crossed over into a post-progressive form. (Eno, Talking Heads, Fripp!) Yes' "Drama" release, although quite a leap from "Close to the Edge", was still some of the best music for 1980. Pink Floyd? Certainly, very commercially successful, but not the experimental band we once knew. Recall that Mr. Fripp has, for sometime, refuted that King Crimson is somehow outside of what is referred to as "Progressive Rock". This is deliberate and clever when considering viability and adaptability to the times. ..and in fact, we could argue that King Crimson has always been somewhat of an enigma as far a labels go.. Any of us who have actually read all the diatribes of KC's and Fripp's trials and tribulations with the Industry, E.G Records, etc., knows that Mr. Fripp has learned well from his experiences (DGM!). Sure KC had changed personnel in the Eighties, but hadn't this been the on-going Crim process? I would look more at the technology (Guitar Synths, V-Drums, etc.) of the times and see how cleverly this was and IS being utilized to create a "sound for the times".. a means of remaining 'current' to the musical tastes of the day. I believe it is ill-conceived to compare Genesis, Yes, and Pink Floyd, as past readers have noted. These bands have evolved differently to the times for different reasons, and their music, although at times experimental or 'Progressive", is worlds apart; their UK roots aside.. The question for them was really how could/would they continue, considering the lack of a 'movement', or culture of support in the '80's and beyond.. ..and then to micro-dissect the various periods of King Crimson (always a good debate topic for this newsletter!).. I would simply say that each 'version' of the Crim was suited to the time in which they existed. We may have our favorite 'times', or 'tunes', but certainly the "eighties trilogy" was as suited for its time as LTIA or TCOL has been for their times. Surely, KC survived the '80's and beyond, as compared to the aforementioned bands; and so did their experimental/avante-garde spirit! ..and I believe this is why the majority of us are still as fanatical as we have ever been about these guys and their music! This is a 'quickie' response to Mr. Colina's post, but these are important aspects to consider (IMHO). I highly recommend reading "Listening to the Future" by Bill Martin, and "The Music's All That Matters" by Paul Stumpf for much more details. If we want this amazing, experimental, avant-garde music to continue (and perhaps play it ourselves!) we must understand the complex dynamics that underline what has and is happening in our world today!! PEACE, Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 03:53:00 -0600 From: "Prog Frog" Subject: Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE Well Tony, I hope not to upset you by just writing a couple of lines when replying to your post (which was a rather interesting read, by the way)...the thing I wanted to ask was, what is the point of making avant-garde or experimental music when one doesn't want to anymore? Take Pink Floyd, for instance...like you mention, DARK SIDE OF THE MOON is "beautiful" but not "experimental"...what I fail to see here is what is wrong about that...on the other hand, I do agree that King Crimson's eighties releases were rather more entertaining than those of its previous counterparts. Something that I often see in heavy metal and progressive rock attitudes (I'm not referring to Tony, by the way), is that fans accuse bands of selling out as soon as they get an inch of success. Isn't this kind of hypocritical though? it's not like progressive rock was an underground thing in the early Seventies.... Marcelo Silveyra Progfreaks.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:08:33 -0400 From: Kevin Holm-Hudson Subject: Re: Epitaph Recording >hello fellow crimsonites >im a student of sound recording technology at the univeristy of >massachusetts, lowell and for my semester's project i need to fully dissect >the King Crimson song "Epitaph". I was wondering if any of the patrons of >this site would know of the exact instrumentation of the song. I have >figured out the majority of the song, however, what has been difficult to >investigate has been the middle section consisting of various >woodwinds---saxes...possible flute... >any insight into the instruments used to craft this breathtakingly beautiful >song would be much appreciated. What a cool assignment! My compliments to your professor... ;-) Without the actual track sheet for the session we shall never know for sure, but this is what my ears pick up: timpani mellotron (of course!) one acoustic guitar one electric guitar bass drum kit (no reverb!) suspended cymbals (not crash cymbals--during the intro you hear them choke off abruptly, as if stopped with the other hand. But it does sound to me like Giles was using timpani beaters rather than snare sticks) electric bass piano (mostly bass register) and for the instrumental section: two bass clarinets (both low register and in close harmony, which makes for a very dark sound) one clarinet--first doubling the bass clarinet at an octave above (which is still at the very bottom of the clarinet's range), then moving to the melody, then repeating the melody an octave higher (this is probably what you heard as the flute). To my ears the bass clarinet is not as abrasive as a baritone sax would be in the same register, so I don't think saxes are on this cut. There may be an extra part in there, but I don't think so. Hope this helps! Kevin (another professor) -- Kevin Holm-Hudson Assistant Professor of Music Theory University of Kentucky 105 Fine Arts Building Lexington, KY 40506-0022 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:16:02 -0400 From: Kevin Holm-Hudson Subject: New prog rock book! If one may be allowed a little self-promotion... Crimsoids might be interested to learn of a new book about progressive rock that I've edited, which has just been published by Routledge. The title is "Progressive Rock Reconsidered," and it's a collection of essays by eleven authors in a wide range of fields, from musicology to comparative religious studies. There are two chapters about King Crimson (on "Larks' Tongues" pts. 1 & 2, and on "Dinosaur"), as well as chapters on Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd, Rush, and so on--plus more general aspects of prog, including its legacy in aspects of 1990s alternative music. This book is different from the recent titles by Edward Macan (Rocking the Classics) and Bill Martin (Listening to the Future) in that it's broadly interdisciplinary--in other words, it's not just for the musicologists (though there's some hefty academic stuff in it too). The book is listed on the web sites for Amazon and Barnes & Noble (B&N's site has it at 20% off, and their site includes a table of contents for the book if you're curious). Thought you might like to know!... cheers, Kevin Holm-Hudson -- Kevin Holm-Hudson Assistant Professor of Music Theory University of Kentucky 105 Fine Arts Building Lexington, KY 40506-0022 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:49:09 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: On Yes, Genesis, and Floyd in the 80's In ET 881, Tony Colina writes about the decline of Prog rock in the 80's. I wish to respond to several of his points. No, I'm not denying that "prog" (whatever that is) did indeed decline; but rather, that I think some of the facts are crossed, or could use elaboration. First off, Tony suggests that Pink Floyd began their descent with Dark Side of the Moon, and continued through the Wall (and the essentially posthumous Final Cut.) The decline was characterized as a migration away from experimentation, toward "prettiness." What should also be noted here, I think, is that the change in focus was a direct result of the extent to which Roger Waters emerged as the band's "Auteur." Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall were all singular pieces conceived by Waters. ON each, he exerted progressively greater influence (one might use the term tyranny, especially if that one was David Gilmour.) Tony also notes a deliberate attempt to get airplay on AOR ("Album Oriented Rock") stations (which were by this time not AOR at all, because that connoted playing album cuts, not singles) with Yes putting out "Owner of a Lonely Heart" and Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall pt. II." I'll give you Yes, but the Floyd song was simply taken out of the grander context of the Wall, as pompous and overwrought a rock opera as a prog fan could ask for. Finally, I must take issue with the contention that these bands tried to change with the times, despite the fact that personnel did not change. Yes in the 80's-- the "Owner of a Lonely Heart" yes-- were quite clearly the Trevor Rabin Yes. And Genesis-- well, Hackett left, Gabriel left (and by the way continued making cutting edge creative music), and then there were three. Suddenly you had the Phil Collins revue. 'nuff said. And Floyd without Waters has simply not been the same band; "By the way, which one's pink" indeed. As for Crimson, I remain of a mind that the '81-'84 band was a special line-up, and I agree 100% with Tony's conviction that Belew and Levin were inspired choices. this was the time when seemingly every album I bought and loved, turned out to have Belew on it somewhere (e.g., Remain in Light, even something by Joan Armitrading). Someone mentioned a while back that by the time Discipline had come out, many artists (Eno, Bowie, Gabriel, Talking Heads) had already mined similar musical territory. Ah, but none without Fripp, Belew, Levin, or Bruford on hand. The foursome had all been intimately involved in the creation of this new music, and their convening in Crimson for Discipline was a culmination of a sort. And a beginning, as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:46:39 -0800 From: Neil Corkindale Subject: Re: "ad nothing to an artist's repertoire" A fellow contributor wrote: "I, for one, do own just a handful of bootlegs (by various artists), simply because they hardly ever really add anything to an artist's Repetoire..." I'm at the other end of the scale - bootlegs are live, raw, exciting and real. It's the studio LPs that are tame. I pretty much only listen to live music these days - live official and bootlegs. Mostly bootlegs. Thanks Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:29:29 -0500 From: Ignacio Cuevas G Subject: wetton colaboration A message i would like to include in ET: Just for -Wetton at his peak- fans: A reissue of wishbone ashe's 1981 "Number the brave" is now on the stores. Wetton plays a quite dynamic bass all along, and he sings an excellent song of his own, called "That's that", quite fast and rocking stuff. This is not prog at all, just good old Wishbone. Just one bad news. The cd is japanese, digipack, and costs 29 bucks. Ignacio Cuevas MEXICO CITY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:47:11 -0300 From: Adrian_Pajakiewicz Subject: Re: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:21:18 +0200 >From: "Tony Colina" >Subject: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE > >An often debated issue among prog fans is the way some of the best prog acts >of the seventies sold out in the eighties. > etc I agree with Tony in almost everything, but... When I was 13 years old, I listened "Owner Of A Lonely heart"... and I love that song (and I still do). And I started to search for information about Yes and than I discovered a lot of albums and I discovered the symphonic rock... I started to listen this thing and I was captured by it. I started to discover groups like Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Asia, etc. Now I'm 30 years old... and I was a victim of the 80's Yes and the prog decline in order to discover it! I think groups must do airplay songs in order to put them in the air... One thing that I can see is that nowadays radio listeners don't try to search for more info about the music they listen. Where I live there's a few radio programs which can play prog songs and they are from a city far away from mine. So I think everybody must change: fans, common ppeople, radio stations... not only groups. Bye... ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #882 ********************************