Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #881 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 881 Wednesday, 24 October 2001 Today's Topics: NEWS: From the moderator GIG BIZ: Krimson ConneKctions page PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE KC/JPJ Tics...NYC...See Below For sale: Signed book of Pete Sinfield lyrics/poetry Re: The Level 5 Tour Epitaph Recording Lakewood Oh. Crimson tx dictionaraoke T-shirts new Damage KC Video Footage and File Sharing Sites King Crimson tour Current touring line-up More CDDB Idiocy Club 17 editing SCI "bootlegs" Re: Selling Collector's Club discs Crimson/Yes Debate Bootleg ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:29:27 -0400 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: From the moderator Just a reminder... if you post regarding Crimson gigs, wishing to sell/trade tickets, or have queries about venues etc, please make your subject line start "GIG BIZ: " which helps us sort posts into categories. Oh, and sorry that in the last issue ET Subject: lines got out of sync with the posts. This was and is a bug. Thanks Toby ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:29:27 -0400 From: Dave Subject: GIG BIZ: Krimson ConneKctions page Hey gang... With the November tour upcoming, a reminder that http://www.midnightmecca.com/crim/fsguest.html is awaiting posts from/for Crimsos going to shows that want to find others needing or having spare tix/hotel space/etc to swap/sell/share, or even just to meet up! Drop in and check it out... Thanx Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:21:18 +0200 From: "Tony Colina" Subject: PROG DECLINE IN THE EIGHTIES AND THE CRIMSO RECIPE An often debated issue among prog fans is the way some of the best prog acts of the seventies sold out in the eighties. It is actually very sad to hear the enormous differences between records like Abacab, or 90125, or The Final Cut, and records like Selling England by the Pound, or Close to the Edge, or Ummagumma. What happened and why did it happen? Well, the answer is simple. The rules of the music business had been changed by punk, and now only bands who could play three chords were given attention; the look was more important than the music, and our beloved musicians were so displaced in such a situation to be referred to as dinosaurs, as something from an ancient past (whereas only few years had passed between the aforementioned good records and things like Never mind the Bollocks). A musician, however good he / she may be, has to pay rents and bills, therefore our heroes tried to fit in the new situation as best as they could. But could they fit? Well, obviously the answer is no. They couldn't, because their musical visions and the eighties music biz's ones were totally different and unmatchable. They believed that the only way to go on was to "refresh" their music, but the only thing they were able to do was to pare down arrangements and shorten track lengths, thus taking away from that music some of its best ingredients. All of these bands tried the AOR way, songs like Another Brick in the Wall, or Owner of a Lonely Heart, were composed to get airplay and get accepted by the new hordes of record-buying youngsters worldwide. The results were often sad, to say the least. Of course, each band had a different approach to it. For example, in my humble opinion Pink Floyd's musical decay started way back in 1973, with the widely acclaimed Dark Side of the Moon. Do not misunderstand me, that one is a beautiful record made up of beautiful songs, but this is the point: "beautiful" is not always a synonim with "interesting", or "avantgarde", or "experimental". Why have I chosen these definitions? Because that is what Pink Floyd were when they started: an avantgarde, experimental band - perhaps the most avantgarde and experimental band of their times. Just think of their first three albums, skipping More, to understand what I mean. Their music was a constant research of sound, textures, space, and so on, whereas from 1973 on they took away all of this from their tracks, confining experiments to all-in-all-avoidable effects in between songs. Curiously enough, the level of lyrics started to improve from that record on, probably reaching the top with The Wall. But that, as they say, is another story. In this sad and saddening picture only one band seem to have been able to avoid the quicksands of selling out, and that is King Crimson. Now we should ask ourselves: why didn't they make the same mistakes? Well, I guess there are two main points to analyze to answer that. The first thing is that, paradoxically enough, one of the causes that saved Crimso from becoming the eighties shadow of their former selves was their splitting in the mid seventies. Actually, their disbanding allowed Fripp and Bruford to gather experienxce after experience, Fripp could work on things like frippertronics, Bruford could experiment with elecronic drum sets, and so on. In short, they could keep up with whatever interesting was going on and get familiar with it. The second reason is that, Fripp being the intelligent guy he is, when it was time to start Crimso again, he looked for new men. He didn't call John Wetton back, for example, or whomever else, because he knew it wouldn't have been of any advantage to his cause. Let's face it, mates, Wetton is a great vocalist and a fairly good bass player, but he is no risk-taking musician. Getting one like him in the band again would have meant playing the nth version of Starless again (which is what Wetton still does around the world). On the contrary, Fripp recruited one of the most innovative guitarists of the time, Belew, and one of the most innovative bassists of the time, Levin (remember the Chapman stick was a kind of a martian tool then), thus creating a brand new line up that had nothing to share with any of the prevoius ones. Well, during that hyatus Bruford had played with Genesis, National Health and even Gong, that is to say no rookies, but he had gone on experimenting on the drums, and his playing in those three albums of the eighties has nothing to do with his old style, so, in a sense, he was a new one too. That's the secret: renovation. Refounding the band on brand new bases, creating something new. As simple as that, but, as all simple things, not so easy to be seen by everyone. How could we expect anything really new from Genesis, or Yes, or Pink Floyd, since the players were the same and hadn't had no break from their usual musical worlds, no chance to live what was goin on outside their yard? That is why, in my humble opinion, no matter how a Crimso fan can judge the eighties trilogy, especially if compared to the seventies records, although there is no point in comparing them, records like Discipline, Beat, and Three of a Perfect Pair stand out as the best example of how an old band could fit into a new era, embracing whatever interesting the new era itself could lend them but without forgetting who they are, thus retaining a very high level of musical quality and artistry all the same. This the others did not understand, that is why they lost it. Thanks for your attention Bye everybody Tony Colina ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:43:59 EDT From: PR1955 at aol dot com Subject: KC/JPJ Tics...NYC...See Below I have 2 extra tickets for sale to the above show...They are: KING CRIMSON BEACON THEATRE Thursday, Dec 13 2001 8:00PM Seat Location (SECTION ORCH, ROW H, SEATS 20 TO 22) I am NOT looking to scalp them. I only want what I paid for them.I got a pair of better saets for the show...If anyone is interested in these seats please email me privately. I am in Nassau County/LI/NY and would like to do the sale in person/locally.... I look forward to your replies,,,,,,,, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:42:46 +0100 From: andrew at flicflac dot co dot uk Subject: For sale: Signed book of Pete Sinfield lyrics/poetry Hi All ET-ers, Not sure if this is allowed, so I'll keep it brief. Once upon a time, I stumbled upon a signed edition of Pete Sinfield's lyrics and poetry ("Under the Sky"), including pretty much everything he wrote with KC. Having discovered that it's rather collectable (only 5000 copies ever printed, with far fewer of them being signed), I've decided to sell it. Offers, please, or visit www.flicflac.co.uk/sinfield.html for more information. I've always preferred Belew-era Crimson anyway... (ducks to avoid flame-war!) Andrew Smith andrew at flicflac dot co dot uk I'm wheels... I'm moving wheels, moving wheels... Andrew Smith (andrew at flicflac dot co dot uk | asmithi at cix dot co dot uk) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:05:46 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: The Level 5 Tour How is it that half of the current Krimson (which is primarily an American band these days) is from Texas, yet there have been *no* KC shows in the area (aside from the P-3 shows) for something like 6 or 7 years???? Makes no sense...... 8^( ~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:06:59 EDT From: TOOL3rdi at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph Recording hello fellow crimsonites im a student of sound recording technology at the univeristy of massachusetts, lowell and for my semester's project i need to fully dissect the King Crimson song "Epitaph". I was wondering if any of the patrons of this site would know of the exact instrumentation of the song. I have figured out the majority of the song, however, what has been difficult to investigate has been the middle section consisting of various woodwinds---saxes...possible flute... any insight into the instruments used to craft this breathtakingly beautiful song would be much appreciated. thank you @ndy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:33:46 -0400 From: wjhl18 at juno dot com Subject: Lakewood Oh. Crimson tx As of today, neither ticketmaster or Lakewood Civic seems to know anything about a Crimson appearance....I'll be checking regularly... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:29:36 +0200 (MEST) From: rikki nadir Subject: dictionaraoke check out http://www.dictionaraoke.org/ for a truly unique version of "elephant talk". sorry if this has been posted before. -- rikki nadir "smash the system with the song!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:05:34 +0100 (BST) From: Nicholas Whittaker Subject: T-shirts Yes! A T-shirt of 'Red' would be awesome! If anybody has any good websites selling KC t-shirts that accept switch card then I would be very grateful to hear from you. Private reply would be dandy! Nick Nicholas Whittaker njw100 at soton dot ac dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:52:43 +0200 From: Haible Juergen Subject: new Damage Hi, I was wondering if anybody has anything to say about the new version of the Sylvian/Fripp "Damage" CD? I'm not good in writing reviews, so this is just a few impressions: - Very different. I had expected some minor differences in the mix, wondering if it's worth to buy another version at all. I was *very* surprised when I got it. Sometimes I wonder if it's all the same performance at all. (The new addition, Jean the Birdman, obviously isn't.) - Is it better? You hear a lot of things you didn't hear on the original mix. Instruments that have been mixed into the background are now put into the center of action. This is a good thing for an alternate version, but much of the original recording's overwhealming power is lost. My personal conclusion is that the first version was much better, but this new version is a *must* for all who like the original. "Analytical vs. Integral" Ok, that's all from my side. I'm sure some of you have been listening more closely than I, have checked if all songs are from the same shows or not, and so on. Just wanted to start a discussion - wondering why I haven't found anything about it on ET yet. JH. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:55:30 -0400 From: "Entrup, Richard" Subject: KC Video Footage and File Sharing Sites I have not seen any KC video footage on any of the file sharing sites (Morpheus, I-Mesh, BearShare, etc.) Someone must have some classic KC footage that they could RIP into digital video format. I'm not talking about ripping anything from any of the KC DVDs. I'm talking bootleg videos, TV stuff like the Fridays NY Show, Letterman, etc. It's got to be out there. If you have the video footage on VHS, have your techy neighbor or co-worker convert it to digital format for you. It's easy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:18:04 -0500 From: "Vlahakis, George J" Subject: King Crimson tour Thanks to DanKirkd at aol dot com and Elephant Talk for providing the early news about the KC tour. I immediately went to the fan site and secured two tickets to the Indianapolis show! This will fulfill a dream and compensate for the fact that I was unable to attend a show in 1984 at an excellent night club venue in Indy. I recently began getting Elephant Talk and find it an excellent tool for keeping up with this great band. This is my first posting. While reading all the posts about Yes and the bootlegTV site, I wonder how many readers also admire another great British guitarist, Allan Holdsworth? He has a good site that features video clips at http://www.allanholdsworth.com/ . Again, thanks to everyone whose posts have made this a must read for me. George Vlahakis Bloomington, Indiana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:11:50 -0700 From: DRISCJA at kellyservices dot com Subject: Current touring line-up What is it? They ran a picture of Bruford/Levin in the Chicago Sun-Times Friday with the announcement of the tour. They weren't even on the last record. What gives? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:36:17 -0400 From: Adam Aronson Subject: More CDDB Idiocy Maybe the idiot who uploaded the track names to the CDDB for "VROOOM VROOOM" can explain why they titled their CD's "VRoOM VROOM" and mislabeled all the songs on disc after Dinosaur. Didn't it occur strange to the labeler that "Improv: Biker Babes of the Rio Grande" (which was actually "Red") followed by a track called "IMPROV: Biker Babes of the Rio Grande" might be strange...? //aa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:29:41 -0300 From: Michael Hackett Subject: Club 17 editing I will first say that I think the Northampton P2 CD sounds great and I enjoyed the performance, but why in the world tease us by mentioning the "exceptionally cool" Schizoid Man encore, and then not include it (or Dino or VROOOM)? And then why leave nearly two minutes of audience noise leading up to the encore only to cut it off before the music? Are they just being cruel? :-) And at the risk of sounding petty, could someone please introduce Alex to the concept of fades? :-) I realize that it's a small thing, but the hard cuts on the Club CDs give an amateurish feel, IMO. But maybe they're going for that bootleg feel -- I don't know. It only takes me a few seconds in Pro Tools or Waveburner, so it must be a conscious decision, but I do find it odd. Otherwise, keep up the good work! -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:10:09 -0400 From: "James J. Hannigan" Subject: SCI I ordered tickets for the New York through SCI; got good seats but hardly "premium" (they're in the back of the orchestra level). Checked against Ticketmaster who had better seats still available, but I'd rather not get gouged by them. SCI tix were $5 each service plus a very reasonable shipping charge. - Jim Hannigan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Messinger Subject: "bootlegs" Bootleg recordings have come a long ways, baby, with the advent of compact digital recording devices. Is it wrong to record someone's voice? Is it wrong to record someone's concert? Is it wrong to record someone's cd and resell it? If you want to dance you've got to pay the fiddler, but how "sound" are the laws governing rights to sounds, intellectual property, etc.? I L I G G I I PI R I C C A Nowadays, we are finding out the true value of a print. It is up to the artist to produce work that stands apart as original. An artist doesn't need protection - only innovation. Take this verbage for example. If someone were to sell it(ha ha)and not give me any money, I couldn't possibly be disappointed because I put it out here and made it accessible for further recording. Those with recorders may record. That is how the game of life is played. Of course no one wants to play in a rigged game, and there's the contradiction; what flows freely costs money? Bill Messinger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:10:13 -0400 From: "David Schipper" Subject: Re: Selling Collector's Club discs Mike in ET 877 questioned thusly: >... "So, this is a good way to get these discs without actually joining the club". >Doesn't DGM sell these? Are we all so dense we're missing Fripp's point >about bootlegging, and the artist not being compensated? Isn't this encouraging >the same? I know, Michael bought them (I think) and should be able to sell them... > ...Personally, I'd be embarrassed trying to do it here, what >with the very extensive exposure on "artists rights" by RF, which I thought >most agreed with. A personal friend, Pierce Turner (who was tied in with Phillip >Glass briefly) hates this kind of thing... whenever he hears about someone selling >their own, or copying, a release of his, his question is always "Why didn't you want >them to buy it new so I'd make a buck?" (as Pierce is an artist with a small following). I read this post about selling stuff you bought legitimately as bad. What ever happened to "free enterprise?" If you follow this further, Fripp should not have sold his mellotron so the company that produced them could "make a buck". That was a small company you know. Also, you should sell your used car so the auto companies can "make a buck". They are hurting now you know... especially in the good old USA. I should know, my department was downsized by 10% this month and they are suppose to be taking another 10% by the end of the year. So, don't sell your used car that is no longer useful to you, make the people buy new ones so the auto companies can "make a buck". It just might save someone's job... but I rather doubt that. Detroit Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:45:58 -0400 From: "Michael V. Campiglio" Subject: Crimson/Yes Debate There's no debate here. The only common thread is that Bill Bruford played for both bands; the rest is apple and oranges. There was another comment about how Yes plays songs from their past catalog and Fripp tends to look forward, yet material is still played off of Discipline through Thrak, not too mention, Larks Tongue and Red have also been part of their regular repertoire. Now if you want to get into a set list debate, I'm all for it! I'd personally like to here some different material from KC's past catalog. Regards, Michael Campiglio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:07:55 +0200 From: George Koopman Subject: Bootleg Thanks Marc for your beautiful story about bootlegging. I've nothing much to add, expect I know that (way back in the eighties) the German band DAF (please do not compare them to KC) actually GAVE recordings to bootleggers, not selling it to them. Their philosophy was that anyone who spends (a lot of) money on bootlegs will surely buy their regular albums, so no money lost for them anyway. I, for one, do own just a handful of bootlegs (by various artists), simply because they hardly ever really add anything to an artist's repetoire and you can pay huge sums of money for them. Anyway Hemingway, I do not understand the negative talk about Britney Spears. She's selling a lot more albums than KC does, so obviously there a market for her, with lots of people who like her music. I do not enjoy listening to her, but does that make her music bad? There's a small matter of instrument and voice control (of course I rate KC a lot higher), but everyone makes music to their own level. This of course goes for all music, it's all personal opinion. I thoroughly enjoy listening to KC for over 20 years, but does that make me a better (more progressive) person than some 15 year old girl who sings along with Britney? I don't think so. Please more concertreviews, those are fun to read. George (Master of ART) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #881 ********************************