Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #88 Discipline, Number 88 Wednesday, 28 April 1993 Today's Topics: Re: Weird noises in _Larks..._ Miles Davis (re: discipline #87) Sky saw guitar Copyright Infringement and Corporate Rock Corporate Rock RF String Quartet show Earthworks' Stamping Ground... Fripp in SF the unperson, Gordon Haskell The Night Watch Starless meandering Fripp plays N.California Belew & Levin w/Gabriel!? Levin / Belew Sighting Guitar Craft Starless (an answer to c_king) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 06:52:17 PDT From: Dennis dot Montgomery at EBay dot Sun dot COM (Dennis Montgomery) Subject: Re: Weird noises in _Larks..._ > Easy Money: > Laughter over a (bad) car speaker -- very tinny Actually, it was a toy...something that could only be described as a "laughing box". A battery powered plastic box with a speaker and the same laughing sound you mention. It was covered by this furry stuffed animal looking thing with eyes. It had a spring to hang it from the ceiling and a motion detector would set off the laughing (I was working in a toy store when I got into Crimson in '77 :) KingCrimson*Beatles*Marillion*Tull*TerracedGarden*GentleGiant*Minutemen**Fish* * _______ *Sepultura*Queen*Pentangle*Eloy*801*TinMachine*Zappa**BlackSabbatH U / \ a n | (. \ \ "I'm gonna stamp on the sawdust and scream 'till I'm ill w i \ >\ | if the guitar don't get ya, the drums will" : Peter Hammill k v-- > |< | w e / >/ |Dennis Richards Montgomery:Software Engineer:Sun Microsystems i r | (. / / n s \_______/Greenslade*Focus*PFM*Dinosaur*SydBarrett*SexPistols*Morbid Angel*d Zero*Aragon*CelticFrost*VanDerGraaf*SadLovers&Giants*ELP*IQ*Genesis*KateBush** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: germuska at antioch dot acns dot nwu dot edu (Joe Germuska) Subject: Miles Davis (re: discipline #87) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 10:00:58 -0500 (CDT) And, in another issue raised by the Fripp interview of McLaughlin posted to Discipline a few months ago, McLaughlin mentions how much he likes the "newly released live 1959 Miles Davis album with Coltrane, Adderley and Evans". Well, I have asked a number of jazz aficianados, including one with a database, and no one knows of any such album! The interview was My guess is that McLaughlin was referring to the recently remastered "Kind of Blue", which, while it was not recorded in a club or concert hall, was recorded live in the studio with no overdubs, and all first or second takes of songs the band had never seen before the studio dates! A truly remarkable achievement, featuring an amazing band... the remaster corrects the slightly off-speed original CD; currently, I think it's only available in a "24K gold" style edition, but future pressings of the the regular rate version will certainly use the new master... Later, Joe -- joe germuska | j-germuska at nwu dot edu | Network Response Center ACNS-Distributed Systems Services, Northwestern University "The only thing that speaks the truth is the eloquence of passing time; the spoken word is a jacket too tight..." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cs64sbt at sdcc8 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid) Subject: Sky saw guitar Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 8:23:01 PDT I recently had the pleasure of acquiring _Exposure_ and I was wondering if anyone out there could explain what a "sky saw guitar" is. (Please don't tell me its a Mellotron; I didn't grow up listening to that instrument so I wouldn't be able to discern its "signature" sound). Paolo -- ******************************************************************* If you know you have an unpleasant disposition and dislike people, this is no obstacle to work. J.G. Bennett ******************************************************************* [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: jtseet at tesla dot uwaterloo dot ca Subject: Copyright Infringement and Corporate Rock Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 13:34:28 EDT In issue 87 of Discipline, a little exchange occurred. There was a request made for someone to take charity upon Syed Kirmani's soul and pocketbook and do him a favour by copying the live 73-74 set because he couldn't afford it. A reply came defending the interests of Robert Fripp saying that: >Fripp well deserves all the money you spend on this >set, and I shan't take it from him. Save your pennies, and give the >guy the business he deserves: he is by no means a rich man. I don't >have a problem taping bootlegs or out-of-print records, but I won't >take food from this man's mouth. Someone from Russia stated: ...(previous remarks omitted)... >>The fact that you can afford to buy "The Great Deciever" and I cannot, does >>not make you better than me with the respect to the music of KC. You >>cannot buy the music - you can buy only the music carrier. I agree that R. >>Fripp deserves his money. But here your position is even more pathetic. >>Those recordings, done w/out Fripp's permission will take much more "food >>from this man's mouth". It is indeed questionable as to whether the market sale of these recordings will take food from Fripp's mouth. The fact that they were done without his permission implies that he does not have any contractual agreement with EG records for the purpose of receiving royalties. He has undergone many difficulties with EG records and this is one of the most notorious ones...one that he is still trying to resolve. This does not, however, mean that the sale of this merchandise will take MORE food from his mouth. If he does have an agreement with his label then the fact remains that he will not receive a large sum of money from EG (it is quite a small percentage that recording artists receive from the sale of a recording - you might be surprised). Artists tend to make most of their money off of concert paraphenalia, i.e. t-shirts, concert books, etc. This is why they cost so damn much. The thing is that the market in developed nations exist for the purpose of mutual exchange of goods/services. By bypassing this market, you are indirectly telling EG records that this product is not one in demand...you might actually be jeopardizing Fripp's career with EG (then again, he might thank you). But still, he won't get ANY money from the deal. It is not anyone's intention to tell citizens in developing nations that they are any less eligible for the music of King Crimson. It is simply a fact that the market there desperately needs development. Jon. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: jtseet at tesla dot uwaterloo dot ca Subject: Corporate Rock Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 14:00:56 EDT Chris King expounded in #87: >Actually I think it took a lot more talent to write, >record, and perform "Heat of the Moment," than it took to write, record, >and perform most songs on "Three of a Perfect Pair"; all of "Moonchild"; >and 72% of the "Beat" CD. Pretentious, overly clever music is even worse >than corporate rock since corporate rock doesn't pretend to be something >better than it is. Oh, I haven't sold out: If I were on a desert island >with two or three of those pretty girls that shake so nicely, I'd trade one >or two of them for a fifth-generation cassette copy of John, Bill, and >Bobby playing "Asbury Park" and "Lark's Tongues pt.II". What the hell, Chris? You think it took more talent blah blah blah. Please quantify "talent" for us. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean "market accessibility"? If that's what you mean, then I'm sure we all agree with you. From the previous statements you made ("...corporate rock bands require a certain difficult-to-find talent: what kind of music will make the pretty girls shake and the teenage boys buy the album?"), it is seems apparent that IS what you mean. The value in that kind of "talent" is that it has the ablility to capture any tone-deaf Joe off the street and squeeze a dollar out of them . But your argument for slamming those three recordings is that YOU think they are "pretentious" and "overly clever". Overly clever to who? Isn't cleverness a talent in itself? Does everyone have cleverness? I'm getting more and more confused. That "pretentious" statement is just loaded with crap. You haven't supported anything you have said with anything but your opinion. Corporate rock doesn't pretend to be something better than it is?? What?? Of course it doesn't. It isn't actually anything! Analyze it, Chris. There are 4 chords in this song...and in a progression that has been used by countless bands. The beat is banal. The lyrics are less than meaningful, much less inspirational. The production is fantastic - value added production, Chris. Please support you arguments with facts and substance in the future. Thank you. Jon. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] I SAY, OLD CHAP. Be nice. Let's keep these feuds private in future please. I don't see much value to other readers on the list to read stuff with this tone. As RF says on The Great Deceiver, "Thank you for your enthusiasm, sir, but control is needed". :-) -- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 11:36:09 From: Chris Stelzer Subject: RF String Quartet show I saw a listing for a Robert Fripp String Quartet show on May 22, Great American Music Hall, San Francisco... In case anyone is interested (and I know you are!) Has anybody seen other dates (esp. southern California)??? The new KC: 2 Sticks, a pair of sticks, and lots of hot licks??? Chris [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 11:40:03 From: Chris Stelzer Subject: Earthworks' Stamping Ground... In reply to David Craig: According to the latest release list, Stamping Ground Live is now due to be released June 8... Chris [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 13:28:09 -0700 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Fripp in SF I heard through the grapevine that Fripp just rented a practice space in San Francisco (somewhere around SOMA) to use for the "string ensemble". I know there are southern California tour dates in about 1 month - it sounds like Fripp & company will be warming up here for a little while before going on the road. Paolo noted: >Now didn't someone post here earlier with a report that Fripp said the band >would have four previous members of Crimson and one new guy? I count three >previous members here... But Trey Gunn has worked with Fripp so much in the last couple of years that he almost counts as a "Crimson almunus", doesn't he? - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 09:52:21 +1200 From: hobbs_a at kosmos dot wcc dot govt dot nz Subject: the unperson, Gordon Haskell First off, yes, I *am* a newbie, so don't shoot me. I've only got "Court", "Lark's" and "Red", but I've read a lot of the history of the band, so I don't consider myself totally clueless. (I've heard "Discipline" once and didn't like it. And I think "Starless" is an incredible piece of music, so there ya go. :-) Anyway, I was in my friendly neighbourhood CD shop (great browsing, but I don't have a CD player :-) a-listening to the first disk of "Frame by Frame". And it struck me - I know from hearsay that Robert Fripp and Gordon Haskell did *not* get along after a while, but can anyone explain to me why Fripp had such a huge vendetta against Haskell that he wiped all trace of him from FbF? If this is a typical newbie question, don't flame me. :-) I've already asked it on alt.music.progressive, but no-one knew. anthony -- *** * *** *** Anthony "SCHWAibo" Hobbs Your admirers in the street * * * * * * got to hoot and stamp their **** * *** * * hobbs_a at kosmos dot wcc dot govt dot nz feet in the heat from your * * * * * * * physique, as you twinkled ** * *** *** DISCLAIMER: Fnord. by in moccasined sneakers. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 18:12:42 -0400 From: javasque at entropy dot bph dot jhu dot edu (Jaime Vasquez) Subject: The Night Watch Hi! I am a newcomer as far as listening to KC goes and I don't have the lyrics to "The Night Watch". It's a little hard for me to understand what Wetton sings also. My question is: Does the song have anything to do with Rembrandt's painting? -Jaime A. Vasquez javasque at eos dot ncsu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: davidh at kau1 dot kodak dot com (David Hodson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 09:36:07 -0500 Subject: Starless meandering In Discipline #86, c_king writes > Don't get me wrong now. I loved "Starless" at one time in my life, but can > anyone explain to me the value of that meandering 13/4 tick-tock, > Fripp's-bored, break after the vocal section? It's a drum/percussion solo. (No, seriously! Fripp's playing backing guitar!) David Hodson * davidh at kodak dot com * "Never trust a rich dead man's wife" - SR [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Fripp plays N.California Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 17:21:40 PDT From: oedipus at cruzio dot santa-cruz dot ca dot us (Edsarr) Robert Fripp (not listed with, but I'm asuming with _String Quartet_) performing live in North California next month! May 22nd, 8:00 and 10:30 p.m. Great American Music Hall, San Fransisco. and May 23rd, evening at The Calalyst, Santa Cruz. Oh I'm So Very Much More Than Slightly Pleased. :-) to once again hold up my side of the vampiric relationship between audience and performer, to contemplate violating the sanctity of the Moment with tapes, to enter into the vigor or active listening... (theatric overstatement filter) Should be great! -Eduar -- Rev.Dr.Oedipus P. Wienushausen # The only constant is change; oedipus at cruzio dot santa-cruz dot ca dot us # enjoy the illusory dance. # Love is the nature of universe. Poised on the brink: Utopia/Oblivion # >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Can you perhaps review the show for us? Thanks -- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Belew & Levin w/Gabriel!? Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 21:42:35 EDT Someone left a cryptic and nearly unintelligible message about Belew joining Levin onstage at a recent Peter Gabriel concert. This person also mentioned a radio or TV broadcast from last week? Anyone have a clue what this was? Was it for real? What did they do together? ______________Anil_Prasad___wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca_______________ "The most brutal, ugly, vicious form of expression - sly, lewd, in fact, plain dirty! It's the martial music of every delinquent on the face of the earth!" -- Frank Sinatra on Rock'n'Roll [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Levin / Belew Sighting Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 7:32:33 EDT From: "The Wombat" Organization: Neurotica Ltd. Oh No, OOPS and shame on me! Well, OK I Admit it, I have never seen Adrian Belew before, and I simply believed a good friend of mine when he told me that the guitarist was Belew, I mean he saw them on the TOAPP tour, but ,maybe he was blind or someting or just far away... I have since killed him, revived him, and killed him again just for spite. Well, OK I didn't do that, BUT... -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-The Wombat IS Matthew Frazer-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Here is the sacred face of rendezvous | finger mfrazer at scott dot skidmore dot edu In subway sour | Make me happy, give me a Saab 9000 Whose grand delusions | Aero in dark green! prey like intellect | 1985 900 Turbo 111k miles In lunatic minds... | A New Hampshire boy in NY state --------------------------------=Be Seeing You=-------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 13:58:27 CDT From: oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com Subject: Guitar Craft Hey there, Great super-size issue there Toby. I didn't realize we had people on the list from Russia even. Small world. Anyway, in reference to RamZ's request, there are a few people on our list who have taken GC courses. I'd be willing to tell you what GC was/is like for me, but keep in mind that there are as many courses going on as participants. For me, Guitar Craft was like starting over, re-learning how to hold the guitar, hold the pick, how to sit. It was really an energizing new beginning, though I've also seen people who couldn't wait to leave (one guy comes to mind in particular). You really have to be willing to give up lots of old habits to get a lot from the course. "What?? You mean I can't play Smoke On the Water anymore?????" I don't really have much time now to go into detail... Maybe if you asked pointed questions? :-) What about the other craftoids out there? This is the most recent address info I have--I don't know if the EG address still works. Considering that Fripp is currently in a court battle with them, I doubt it. For info. on courses: G.C. Seminars 14431 Ventura Blvd. Suite 118 Sherman Oaks, CA 91423 USA ... and the Guitar Craft Merchandise (tapes/t-shirts/literature/etc.) address is: Guitar Craft Merchandise 351 Magnolia Ave. Long Beach, CA 90802 USA Good luck, david [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ophir at math dot tau dot ac dot il Subject: Starless (an answer to c_king) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 13:59:34 GMT+3:00 Hi evry1! I rarely find the time to write ANYTHING (not even my CS projects) but this time someone here really 'brought me the nerves' (word by word translation from Hebrew),'cuase this guy c_king DARES to say bad things about MY (sorry all others) KC. Not only that he don't like STARLESS he don't like LARKS' ???!!! In Discipline #86, c_king writes ( I changed the order ) > > Don't get me wrong now. I loved "Starless" at one time in my life, ( You did have a taste once) > does anyone like it after the 7th listen? Well I do.In fact I listen to it more after your mail... > but can anyone explain to me the value of that meandering 13/4 tick-tock, > Fripp's-bored, break after the vocal section? I'll try to explain. This technique of repeating a theme (a melody or a rythm) is called (at least in classical music it does) Ostinato. It is one of the ways of building TENSION in music and I can't believe anyone has missed it.It's tense all over! Furthermore. Unlike the Discipline piece which brings an Ostinato itself in this one (Starless) the theme is repeated but every time differently.Even Wetton who plays the same theme (Fripps accompanies with a rythmic Ostinato but the pitch changes) plays it diffently every time (once just touching the string,once with echos etc.) not to mention the great stuff we get from great BILLY. Finally after building all the way up (The guitar is 3 miles from the ground, Wetton blew up the microphone , and Bill is using all 200 hands he's got) comes the brak in the final section , which is one of the rare pieces (even for KC) where you can actually here the Bass play the theme. So alright,this 1 ain't perfect.Mel's Soprano Sax is a bit more suitable to Sting , not KC.The 1st part goes rather slowly with Melancholy but no real development,Wetton goes 2 hard on the bass in the end but the final section > The final section sounds too much like a hokey, cliche, > bang-boom-kapow movie soundtrack. sounds more like 21th cent. Schi. to me (and I'm not the only 1). Now I know nothing about Wetton's bands these days but 'listen' to THIS: > is that any less difficult than writing some overly self-concious 17/4, > pointless weird voices, silly violin solo, sounds like a guitar workshop-type > song like Lark's Tongues pt. I? Well excuse me. Larks' 1 is the most complex and interesting prog. rock piece I've heard.It goes from a voilin solo to many instruments together from 'Eastern' sounds to Rock'NRoll guitars from complete silence to absolute noise. > Actually I think it took a lot more talent to write ... > than it took to write, record,and perform... > all of "Moonchild"... Well I think it takes much more to understand this, certainly, not very easy to understand music rather than calling it > Pretentious, overly clever music is even worse than corporate rock... However > Oh, I haven't sold out: If I were on a desert island with two or three of > those pretty girls that shake so nicely, I'd trade one > or two of them for a fifth-generation cassette copy of John, Bill, and > Bobby playing "Asbury Park" and "Lark's Tongues pt.II". As long as you keep 1 to yourself it's OK.Hey and I adore Larks' 2. (Now PLEASE, no offence for that Chris, it's all in fun). (And I never thought I could write something longer than 10 lines as e-mail) ------------------------------ Nothing he's got he really needs, ------------------------------ 21st century Schizoid man... (Sinfield , In The Court...) Ophir Kenig ophir at taurus dot bitnet [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.