Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #873 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 873 Thursday, 20 September 2001 Today's Topics: Best wishes to all Michael Giles re PT of universityof errors Radius Re: 24 bit Discipline re-master defect? Progfreaks.com JIBILIAN/GLASS Dates Fripp, Fayman, Roach 'Sacred Songs' 8track cart on e-bay Re: K Burns jazz/Krimson/Zappa My son was surprised. 5 Piece Crimson South American Tour The Vicar's diaries Genesis, Peter Gabriel & Tool a point of seeing soundscapes at wtc Significant contribution Peace - to the world Question! Hidden Frippish phrase? Re: Crimson reunion ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:20:00 +0200 From: "Toby Howard" Subject: Best wishes to all Hello everyone. We don't have the right words, but the ET team would like to send condolences and love to anyone who has been personally affected -- in whatever way -- by the tragedy of 11 September. Now we shall continue with ET as usual. Toby ET Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:20:00 +0200 From: "Ahimsa Consulting" Subject: Michael Giles Hi all First time reading the ET and was thrilled at reading about my favs - KC, (old) Genesis, and of course Peter Hammill (and who is Tool anyway?????). I am glad this newsletter exists and thanks for the work in compiling it. My question concerns the KC drummer for their first two albums - Michael Giles. I have struggled to track down much info on him except that he left after "Wake" and went on to doing a diverse range of session work. As a neophyte drummer I am gob-smacked by his expertise on 21st Century, Cat Food, Cadence & Cascade, I talk to the wind - these are, from a drumming perspective, really great tracks and led me to admire his skills. If this thread has been exhausted over the last 10 years of this newsletter perhaps someone could forward me the info off list. My address is: ahimsa at inext dot co dot za Thanks folks Andrew PS. Any chance that KC will ever make it South Africa? Or is that like asking if there will ever be world peace? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 05:55:01 From: "Spear man" Subject: re PT of universityof errors >I did tour with the band on 2 previous tours, on which several nights I wore either a KC "Red" or "Larks Tongue" T-shirt on stage. My pal/boss/bandleader David was not entirely amused by that !?!?!< Might explain why the Miles Davis cover came so early at one of the UofE shows I saw--right after some KC, straight into 'So What'. Daevid's humor once again--laughingly brilliant. So you're Mushroom's drummer, too then? Are you also called Patrick O'Hearn on one of those albums or is that someone different? --spearman np Project Two @ GAMH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:48:34 +0400 From: "George Khouroshvili" Subject: Radius >From: "Zygmunt Gruntkowski" >Subject: Radius > >...I'm interseted in >Radius music, a band with D. Cross founded after LFA project. Does >anybody >know their music and could write a bit about it? Hi, you can download a track by Radius from their latest release "Civilizations" at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/121/radius1.html. It's hard to desribe Radius' music. I'd like to warn you that it's very different from David's solo albums or anything King Crimson recorded with David. Radius is the experimental project by Geoff Serle (British avantgarde musician) and DC. Their music is a strange and wonderful blend of ambient, avantgarde (sometimes jazzy) rock and electronica. >Unfortunately I've heard that their CDs are actually unvailable (?). If >anybody could help me to buy or trade these albums please contact me: Most of their releases are out of print and quite hard to find. Their latest album is available from Noisy Records and some of the early releases are still available from Voiceprint. Maybe some early titles will be re-released someday on Noisy Rec. but there was some copyright problem with "There Is No Peace" album and I'm not sure if it ever sees the light of day again. George Calamity - The Official David Cross newsletter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:16:19 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: 24 bit Discipline re-master defect? In ET #872 "Brett Needham" asked: > My re-master copy of Discipline skips on "Sheltering Sky" as well. Has > anyone tried to contact DGM to see what they have to say about this? No problem on mine, but in any case are the remasters not released by Virgin, rather than DGM? In which case, presumably they're the ones responsible for the physical pressings? Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:05:47 -0600 From: "Prog Frog" Subject: Progfreaks.com Hi people, I swear this is the only time I'll send this message. I'm the editor-in-chief and one of the main writers at Progfreaks.com, a new website regarding progressive rock in all its forms. I just wanted to tell you about the site and, before you go crazy trying to find something Crimson-related, I suggest you go to our Hall of Fame section =) Thanks for your time, Marcelo Silveyra Progfreaks.com - Are you a progfreak? http://www.progfreaks.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:25:47 -0400 From: "Gary/Denise Jibilian" Subject: JIBILIAN/GLASS Dates Hi there, Could you post the following JIBILIAN/GLASS dates on ET? -September 11, Opening for The Flower Kings, & Tiles, at I-ROCK, Detroit, Mi. -October 29, Opening for the California Guitar Trio, at The Ark, Ann Arbor, Mi. Thanks, Gary Jibilian www.garyjibilian.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:41:44 -0400 From: "Tom Hranowsky" Subject: Fripp, Fayman, Roach Received the latest Steve Roach newsletter yesterday and it had some interesting news. Fripp and Fayman have invited Steve Roach to produce and participate in a new collaboration slated for the second half of 2002. Early recordings have already taken place in Los Angeles and Tucson. Now, if only Vidna Obmana would get involved... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 15:32:22 +1000 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: 'Sacred Songs' 8track cart on e-bay Hello Frippsters FYI... e-bay has (last time I looked) an original 8track cart of Daryl Hall's RF produced SACRED SONGS up for auction. Happy bidding to anyone lucky enough to own a working cartmachine! (or any RF completists!) Cheers, O! PS. I'm not the person with this item up for bidding... just thought one of you might like to know. PPS. No fighting now, ok! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 11:52:12 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: K Burns jazz/Krimson/Zappa Hullo! John Wylam wrote: > The Ken Burns thread is of special interest these days. After watching >the *Jazz* documentary, I came away thinking what a conservative position >Burns took, .. Yup, he absolutely wussed out. He allowed W. Marsalis to direct the entire focus of the show in an ultra-conservative fashion. Since Burns (admittedly), has/had no real knowledge of his subject, he allowed this nonesense, instead of seeking out a more balanced perspective. He also stated in an interview that he wanted to make the show accessible to everyone, (there`s a death-knell for ya`), even a little grandma from Des Moines, Iowa....... Probably not exact, so no quotation marks....., but close enough. >not at all surprising in the current US political climate tho how >much more refreshing would it all have been had Burns dared to open out his >definition of jazz at all. When you consider how prominent Wynton Marsalis >was in terms of citation, treating the audience to his own deeply >conservative point of view regarding what is and is not jazz, then perhaps >this isn't so surprising. Precisely. >To treat Coleman, Coltrane, the Art Ensemble of >Chicago, Sun Ra and so many others, ...and what about Albert Ayler!!!!?? Nothing at all said, that I recall... >.....in this way reminds me not a little of >Harold Bloom's impertinence in designing the modern canon in poetry. >Finally, it's up to us, the audience, to decide who is truly of importance >and who is less worthy of praise. > I agree wholeheartedly with Craig's comment about Sun Ra, by the way... >...As someone said of Frank Zappa by way of eulogy (and why the hell didn't >people >write such things while the visionaries are still alive?) a great many >musicians could've sued him for paternity. Some (many) did. He is (arguably, of course), the father of progressive rock. In 1966 (Freak Out), he created electric rock music that contained......... 1) odd time signatures 2)classical influences 3) jazz influences 4) unusual instrumental juxtaposition 5)experimentation of all sorts ...6)... and humour! ...all w/ considerable virtuosity To my (then) 13 year old ears it was an epiphany! As was "ItCotCK" 3 years later. > Now, to bring the subject back around to KC in particular. I'm always >distressed when this band, and the prog movement in general, is treated the >way it is by writers who have little/no experience with this music and give >it nothing in the way of attention. VH1's greatest-band countdown is a >possible case in point, tho I ought be happy KC so much as made the list at >all. Miles Davis used to mention about how most rock musicians have little idea (I believe his words were "no idea"), how to play their instruments. There were/are of course, important exceptions, & Krimson are, & always have been leading the way, inspiring 'rock' musicians to develop their skills through 'discipline'. > It occurs to me that the aforementioned Frank Zappa ought to have been >higher on that list as well, but innovation takes a back seat to economics, >to marketing. I shudder to think what this list will look like in >twenty-five years. "Jazz From Hell" 8^D Zappa consistently thumbed his ample nose at the critics (& society in general), so it`s no surprise he was largely shunned, (it`s hard to 'make it' when you have "no commercial potential"),.. however it seems certain that he will be one of those exceptions, & his contributions to music history will be preserved in recognition, despite it`s mind-boggling genre-leaping. Even though it`s skewed, if you watch the Burns show for what it is, it`s still worth time. ~Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:18:10 -0400 From: "Greg Amann" Subject: My son was surprised. Hello all. My 10 year old son has been a crim-head ever since I got the Crimson "Live in Tokyo" VHS tape. Then I took him to the Toronto "Construction of Light" show. Yesterday I picked up the "Deja VROOOM" DVD. We were watching it together and during the opening bit you can see the musicians backstage heading for the stage. My son was absolutely shocked when he saw Fripp backstage. Here is the quote (in a vocal tone that accompanies a 10 year old in a state of orgiastic revelation): "I had no idea that Fripp smiles!" My wife and I both found this very amusing. Big Fat Smelly Greg gamann at bconnex dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:19:41 -0400 From: JamesLHines at netscape dot net (James Hines) Subject: 5 Piece Crimson I don't think this has been talked about yet, but I'm wanting to know everyone's thoughts on what KC will sound like when Levin returns to the group. (in case you weren't paying attention, when KC was in LA, T-Lev had brekfast with them one day and they told him he's still the "5th Member"). I guess I'm wondering this because I'm just wanting to know how T-Lev will work himself in to the already dense sound of the Double Duo. And I'm also wondering how a 5 Piece Crimson will work. Except for the Double Trio, which, while a great band, was very limited in sound-space and ultimately ended, and the short quintent with Muir, all Crimson lineups have been quartets (not including Sinfield on this since he wasn't actually on stage, playing an instrument). It seems to me that King Crimson works best as a quartet, or possibly a trio (P3, Red). When T-Lev comes back (and who knows when that'll be), he'll obviously handle the bass duties. So, what does that leave for Gunn to do? Obviously he'll have his parts, but I really don't think he'll have anywhere of an individual voice like he does now. I'm thinking back to the Double Trio, where Gunn was either adding beautiful and perfect "coloration" (SexSleepEat and Walking on Air), or he doubled Ade or Bobby (most of the material), or he doubled/split the bass duties with T-Lev (E-Talk). Of course the group won't lose Fripp or Belew (please never!), so where does that leave Trey? As a listener/enthusiast I prefer it when Trey is more "audible"...something like P3, the Double Duo, or preferably Trey's solo stuff where he is at his best as a musician. Of course I'm being selfish, but I want to be able to hear what he does. Does everybody remember those threads back in the day asking "what's Trey doing? I can't hear him"? I think for a lot of us (me at least), it took some research (seeing them live, Trey solo stuff, with RFSQ, KC videos) to actually hear what he was doing. Will Trey's sonic spectrum be swallowed up by T-Lev? James Hines (no Crafty affiliation) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:12:56 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: South American Tour Hi Sorry again to write about it... Just to say that there are lots of people that like and buy KC CDs in Brasil. Just going to regular CD stores and even the gatefold remasters can be easily found. The fact is, that all of them are imported and for sure not directly from DGM but from regular dealers that buy directly from DGM or even other bigger dealers. Maybe that is why Fripp thinks that there are no or very little KC presence in South America. Well I do not hate KC for not coming to Brasil. Steve Hacket was in Sao Paulo just 2 months ago and played some very crimsonesque music. He would suit very well into an alternative KC formation to play old material. Cheers Ronald Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:32:51 +0100 From: "Martin Lennon" Subject: The Vicar's diaries I wonder if anyone has copies of The Vicars' diaries from it's beginning to August 28th (inclusive). There's something I want to check up on in there. Private replies, naturally. Much appreciated. Martin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:02:33 +1000 From: "Wills, James X (AU - Melbourne)" Subject: Genesis, Peter Gabriel & Tool Mike wrote: >> . . .And, the three songs written by the Collins/Genesis you mentioned were all written for the radio and in most musician's opinions are >> just that - commercial crap. "Most musicians' opinions"???? Don't you really mean "in my very strongly held opinion"? Don't see how you could have met *most* musicians, even within your home state/country/whatever. >> he "wanted to go in a different direction which the band was going" i.e. commercial music written for the radio. But that's hardly a fair description of the music Genesis made for two years after Peter Gabrield left. It certainly wasn't the end of the "Prog Genesis" era in 1975, more like 1978(?) I rate "Wind & Wuthering" as the equal of anything Genesis with Peter Gabriel made. But then that's just me. I would direct anyone wanting to hear a good early Genesis album to either "Selling England . . ." or "Wind & Wuthering". Having said that though, I mostly agree with Mike's assesment of Collins-led Genesis. I don't like much of it very much. But I don't think it really needs such hyperbole to make the point that as Genesis began writing shorter, simpler, "catchier" songs, they were far less likely to appeal to the people who enjoyed their longer, more complex and mysterious stuff. Throughout their latter years though, it's my opinion that they continued to throw the odd bone to those of us listening and waiting for it (maybe that's too cynical a metaphor) And although a lot of "us" didn't like the direction they were moving in -- at least they were moving. Which is why I bothered to post this at all to a KC list -- artists worthy of the name (in *my* opinion) like to try out new ideas. If they didn't, none of us would be here at all to discuss it. James Wills ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:26:39 +0800 From: Errol Tout Subject: a point of seeing Has anyone else noticed.... Sometimes, due to external pressures that demand time, I do not spend enough time engaged with being a musician. I feel I have neglected a friendship. Yet when I return to 'active service' that friend has been patiently waiting. It may take some time for the conversation to reach the levels that it has in the past, but the friendship is still intact. Amazingly the friend does not seem totally irritated that I am such a poor friend. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I too sleepy to see that the friend IS pissed off? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:46:52 -0400 From: "Pete Gilbert" Subject: soundscapes at wtc I am sure that I had a cd of soundscapes that was recorded at the World Trade Center, but I don't remember which one, and haven't been able to find it. Have I mis-remembered this? Which CD would this be? I am sure that one of the ET trainspotters will help me out :-) np: A Blessing of Tears Pete Gilbert www.michsticktrio.com and http://people.mw.mediaone.net/pgilbert/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:14:58 -0700 From: "Clark Albritton" Subject: Significant contribution Dear ET, Verbose, but please read as I have precious gems to offer. Here I sit, once again, having re-purchased for the 9th time every King Crimson and Robert Fripp CD/Album of significance that I've loved from a very early age, having given away all previous sets so many times in my devout evangelism of his mastery. I am not a "fan", in any sense, of anything. However, I have spent most of my life convincing others that Robert Fripp's extraordinary talent and intellect for the music and specifically the guitar actually exceeds of my own. Given my considerable ability in this area, that hasn't been so easy. From the days of my youth, around 14 or 15 years (1973), whilst I mastered the guitar in San Diego as a recluse teen of the 70's LSD genre, I wandered through fields of masters having yet to stumble upon King Crimson. Then, I was asked to play in a band with an incredibly talented bass player named "Henry Harvey" from Hawaii. He had heard me play my extensive repertoire of whole tone lead patterns, which crossed both whole tone scales, linking them masterfully, and he insisted that I listen to King Crimson. At that time, my passions leaned toward Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant, Jimi Hendrix, ELP, and others such as. Therefore having remained for a time secure that my whole tone inventions were entirely unique, I perfected a quite unique form which I sincerely considered beyond the imagination of the present generation. After completely digesting Fracture however, I became despondent, having been previously sure of my ownership of this whole tone world, to hear a brilliant treatment by Fripp. I heard "Fracture" and almost, childishly, resolved to quit playing guitar. My arrogance kept me from giving in, having decided that my ideas and dexterity of whole tone progressions exceeded those concepts presented in Fracture. I ultimately found myself devoted to Fripp having developed a real connection with his guitar intellect as expressed in Fracture and then experiencing his extreme breadth and imagination beyond and beyond, that I found myself exploring every moment of his music over and over. I evangelized everyone I knew to this vast audioscape of fantastic reach and depth exceeding the means of the day, requiring the invention of his own devices to portray the sounds of genius which flow from his being. I did not, would not worship Fripp, but my God, he is genius incarnate and it became my deepest wish to meet Mr. Fripp; to see him, not as idol, but with wonder how so much talent could find its way into one mind. Also, I deeply wished, still wish to share with him, his audience, any one who understands this music he has given us as well as I do, my small contribution; my meager offering, though great in its own right, however small to the body of work Mr. Fripp has given us. I sincerely believe that I have some concepts that are Fripp like in nature, that may, perhaps, belong to him, that must be shared with the world. I do not have the sophistication to produce MPEG or audio files, but I will try to find someone that can help me in that. My greatest wish would be to post my little contribution and have Mr. Fripp hear it and say, "well done, pig." or something of that nature (I love the movie, "Babe.") You know, to have a master say that your little painting is "nice" would be so fulfilling that one can only dream of such. Beyond that, I would love to meet Mr. Fripp. Not because he should live up to any ideal. I suspect he is much as he described himself at UCSD back in 1979 when I saw him perform solo, and give his lecture on microtonal scales, etc., when he came out and said, "I wonder what you were all expecting." I would love to meet him simply because his music has filled decades of my life, shaped my understanding of guitar and music, and because regardless, he must have something great to share given his incredible talent. Do I sound like a fan and a nut yet? Probably. Imagine a 43 year old man who's greatest dream is to meet Robert Fripp. If any of you ever have occasion to correspond with Mr. Fripp, please tell him that I would dearly love to "give him" my meager work so that he could use it, expand it, and digest it for new inspiration. I promise that it is Fripp in nature, but completely different and original material that would greatly inspire. I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:55:16 -0500 From: "Gerardo Liedo" Subject: Peace - to the world I am the ocean Lit by the flame I am the mountain Peace is my name I am the river Touched by the wind I am the story I never end. Peace is a word Of the sea and the wind. Peace is a bird who sings As you smile. Peace is the love Of a foe as a friend; Peace is the love you bring To a child Searching for me You look everywhere, Except beside you. Searching for you You look everywhere, But not inside you. Peace is a stream From the heart of a man; Peace is a man, whose breadth Is the dawn. Peace is a dawn On a day without end; Peace is the end, like death Of the war. 1969 - Peter Sinfield ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:38:52 EDT From: Mikenkima630 at aol dot com Subject: Question! To whom it may concern, After much consternation on my part, after listening to my (new to me) recently purchased "Heavy Construkction " I cannot seem to aquire the necessary "password" to access the enhanced CD portion of my 3 CD set as the web site either does not exist any longer or I am too foolish to gain access. If ANYONE has that information I would be very greatful. Thank you in advance for your help. Mike Aguilar ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:12:23 -0700 (PDT) From: vigor mortis Subject: Hidden Frippish phrase? My mp3 jukebox, on shuffle, was playing "Starless", then moved on to playing Soda Stereo[1]'s "Entre Canibales"... i was rather shocked when i noticed that the first five seconds of the track sounded like an echo of "Starless". I had to restart it to make sure WinAmp wasn't flipping out on me. An amusing surprise... rone [1] rock group from Argentina... influences include The Police, Big Country, The Cure, U2. "EC" is off _Cancion Animal_, arguably their best album -- "The ministry of communication is duty-bound to make the use of the Internet impossible." - Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:14:44 +0200 From: "VAN DE PEER, Tobias (Gillingham)" Subject: Re: Crimson reunion re: Howard B. Whitman's comments about an original Crimson reunion: Funnily enough a couple of years ago I remember reading (in his diary?) from Fripp that he had been approached about a 1969 Crimson reunion. He declined, but recommended that a suitable guitarist would be - Steve Hackett. Very interesting. Toby van de Peer ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #873 ********************************